Yeah thats a weird comparison, PS4 business model is completely different than the one for the Mac. Macs are very pricey, no doubt about it, but they are wonderful computers from hardware to software.
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Why does Apple get singled out for maintain strong margins?
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Yeah thats a weird comparison, PS4 business model is completely different than the one for the Mac. Macs are very pricey, no doubt about it, but they are wonderful computers from hardware to software.
Capitalism doesn't mean anything of the sort. There's a demand for a product and so companies can charge what people are willing to pay for. No product has to become a race to a low-margin bottom.
There is plenty of competition in the computer space. You don't have to buy Apple products. Apple can charge more than most of their competitors. These are all not mutually exclusive statements.
While this is the case in a lot of instances, I think ignorance is also another reason. Some people just don't know any better. For example, Apple charges a shit ton more for 32 GB of extra storage in a phone not because it costs a lot more (like $10), but because people don't even know about (or demand) microsd. For most people, they assume Apple has their best interests at heart (lol). They also see everyone else with iPhones, so they assume everything about the product is normal/reasonable.
Too bad they don't make Windows machines as nice as Macs.
Maybe they wouldn't have to have such a bargain-basement user experience.
You're the one who brought up criticisms from outside their margins.
And it is those practices that have helped Apple maintain their high profits.
Night Angel
Member
Large profits, low margins dawg.
Beerman462
Member
Prior to this year I bought cheap off contract phones, but with my daughter being old enough for a phone and all three of us on separate carriers, I finally broke down at went to AT&T. Stepping into the store and seeing the huge amount of phones to choose from it's easy to see why people just get an iPhone. It's a known quantity, it's a safe bet. Apple out advertises everyone and it's not just commercials. When a new Apple product is released it's even on the news. So most people really only recognize IPhone and maybe Samsung as quality phone makers. I think that's why people wrongly use the word drone. IPhones are great, but so are a lot of cheaper phones, but most people only really know Apple so that's what they get. Like I said before I'm curious if that will change especially in the States without contracts. I'm on Next and paying $16/Mo for my 3GB Ram/32GB Rom LG G3. The IPhone 6 is $21 for 16GB and it's a smaller phone. People don't really add up installments well either they just see an extra $10 a month and don't really care so I doubt it will change anything.
Profit is an incentive in an economic system to fill a need that wasn't filled in the most efficient way.
If a product is priced above the cost of production, the system isn't at maximum efficiency.
A market where a need isn't being properly filled (at production price) is supposed to attract competitors to drive the price down, and move the efficiency of the system as high as possible.
High profit margins mean that competition isn't possible, for one reason or another - generally, due to artificial constraints that effectively 'created' a need for that brand's product, and not for any product of that type.
The 'computer space' is not a single market, much like 'food space' is not a single market. Products are partially interchangeable, leading to far more markets.
As it stands, within the space of computers, there's a market for Apple Products, that has been accurately created.
Dell 15" $2,549
512 GB SSD, 16 GB RAM, Core i7 up to 3.3 GHz, GeForce 750m 2 GB, 3840x2160 touch display
Apple 15" $2,499
512 GB SSD, 16 GB RAM, Core i7 up to 3.7 GHz, Radeon M370X 2GB, 2880x1800 non-touch
Samsung's phones off contract are very close to Apple as well. Whenever you start using premium materials and custom manufacturing techniques, things gets expensive.
wait you think Apple's labor practices are terrible? What do you think the workers are treated like that are making these top specced Android phones that sell for $300?
512 GB SSD, 16 GB RAM, Core i7 up to 3.3 GHz, GeForce 750m 2 GB, 3840x2160 touch display
Apple 15" $2,499
512 GB SSD, 16 GB RAM, Core i7 up to 3.7 GHz, Radeon M370X 2GB, 2880x1800 non-touch
Samsung's phones off contract are very close to Apple as well. Whenever you start using premium materials and custom manufacturing techniques, things gets expensive.
wait you think Apple's labor practices are terrible? What do you think the workers are treated like that are making these top specced Android phones that sell for $300?
Mammoth Jones
Member
One and done.
badcrumble
Member
Man, that New York Times piece continues to pay dividends.
Dude, practically everyone who needs electronics assembled is using Foxconn. Apple's just their most famous customer (and the best one to put in a headline to get a story more attention).
Of course, I won't even argue that. But let's not pretend this is everyone who buys Apple products. The line of thinking seems to be so prevalent when it comes to rationalizing why people like their products. Such as some the people on this forum. We're reasonably informed when it comes to our tech purchases.
badcrumble
Member
The idea that dollars spent on apple products are Less Rational than dollars spent on the products of their competitors is extremely silly and says more about the people who believe it than it does about Apple, yeah.
FriedConsole
Banned
I didn't say they weren't. The fact that Apple is the most profitable company in the world by a magnitude and still has terrible manufacturing process is why they are worse. They could make 100 million less and actually pay people a living wage to make their overpriced phone.
I guess to people on team Apple think I look like I am on team Android or something. Here I will make you feel better:
Every phone made today is made with terrible labor practices.
The whole "everyone is doing it" is not a valid defense.
badcrumble
Member
It's not, and it's awful, yeah. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Apple does push to make it so that FoxConn workers are better compensated when they're working on Apple products, though, which is about the best that can be expected from a profits-focused firm competing with other FoxConn clients. I'm absolutely aware that that's a horribly low standard, but my general preference more broadly speaking would be full communism now.
LegendofLex
Member
It all boils down to value. Even if there's a significant markup at retail, they deliver their products at those prices because they believe that's what they're worth. Their design philosophies revolve around high value vs. low cost or even power, and that's what makes them so attractive to consumers, allowing them to justify their asking price.
Well, as evil as it sounds, good for them on capitalizing on consumers naivety.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
In other news, E3 conferences are coming soon...
Randolph Freelander
Member
More power to their margins, and more power to their steady diet of customers who are willing to buy every single device they release.
AAPL is the biggest component right now in the S&P 500 and Nasdaq 100, and funds over these indexes are big components of my retirement portfolio, so keep cashing them checks.
Go, Apple! Extract as much money from your customers as possible.
AAPL is the biggest component right now in the S&P 500 and Nasdaq 100, and funds over these indexes are big components of my retirement portfolio, so keep cashing them checks.
Go, Apple! Extract as much money from your customers as possible.
FriedConsole
Banned
You'll probably say it wasn't true Communism but the result will always be the same. This is labor practices under Communism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag
I don't understand this either. If someone is comfortable with Apple products, isn't that reason enough? Hell half the reason I won't ever go to Android is because I am too used to iOS and love the connectivity my phone has with my Mac. If someone likes what they buy, why does being 'informed' even matter? Not everyone needs the top of the line specs when there is way more to a phone than that.
It's almost like people believe iPhone buyers hate their phones but continue to buy them because they are 'drones'. I guess they also ignored how many people left Android recently to get an iPhone 6.
Stockpile Thomas
Neo Member
Thanks for calling me an idiot! Maybe go use google to look up how to use MDM, or change the policy so the students get ownership of the iPad, and let the teacher enforce what the student can and can't do with it.
About two years ago I helped implement iPad at a school with about 150 student and another with 100. A year later we had about 15-25 that needed some kind of servicing - this include broken screens, and a guy who tried to jailbraik.
Most if not everyone at those schools are still happy with their decision and all the IT-support is handled by two elderly teachers who like IT. Some of the benefits are:
- highly transportable
- a camera and video camera
- easy to use for students and teachers - some training is needed for teachers :-D
- two teachers can support about 250 students - student had ownership of iPad.
- airplay - a major factor for picking iPads. Students can show of work in front of class without unplucking or plucking in a wire.
- good apps
If you want to know how everything was set up you can PM me
makingmusic476
Member
I mostly scoff at Apple for things like billing a music service that has feature parity with other, years old services as something that will "revolutionize" the market, and because I know that that new service will probably gain more users than competitors in quick order.
Having a friend tell me why Apple products are totally worth the high price and I should get one because of features x, y, and z that I already have on my current phone doesn't help matters, either. It's an anecdote, sure, but it adds to the impression that a number of Apple users pay their high prices because of their ignorance of competitors, as opposed to the compellingness of the products themselves.
Having a friend tell me why Apple products are totally worth the high price and I should get one because of features x, y, and z that I already have on my current phone doesn't help matters, either. It's an anecdote, sure, but it adds to the impression that a number of Apple users pay their high prices because of their ignorance of competitors, as opposed to the compellingness of the products themselves.
Pops Maellard
Member
Apple threads. Gotta defend your purchases by shitting on other brands, obviously.
If it takes you longer to "configure" an iPad than it does a Chromebook, you're doing something wrong.
iMessage almost makes buying into iOS worth it alone, especially if you have a Mac, and there is no Android equivilant to it at all.
soundahfekz
Member
Apple's implementation of hardware and software being in sync is unrivaled, along with their ability to reach the consumer with simple to understand marketing (and letting their products be the star of the show) Who else is competing with them in this space?
Samsung has dudes doing parkour out of windows and shit to sell a smartphone. No one cares about that. Too many suits involved who like the smell of their own shit
Google has too many damn engineer types, and not enough people who know how to streamline products that form a unified logic, see the (highly customizable) mess that is Android L, hangouts, etc.
I haven't owned an apple product in 5-6 years, but you can't knock their hustle when consumers are lining up to consume their products.
Samsung has dudes doing parkour out of windows and shit to sell a smartphone. No one cares about that. Too many suits involved who like the smell of their own shit
Google has too many damn engineer types, and not enough people who know how to streamline products that form a unified logic, see the (highly customizable) mess that is Android L, hangouts, etc.
I haven't owned an apple product in 5-6 years, but you can't knock their hustle when consumers are lining up to consume their products.
badcrumble
Member
Man, I hope that Peter Thiel is sent to a gulag within my lifetime.
While it's absolutely fine that Apple maintains a high margin,
this is a false premise. Many well run businesses survive on extremely high volume of low margin goods. Walmart, for a really significant example. Commodities are important, and they are almost universally low margin, because one of the basic features of a commodity product is that the barrier to entry is low so downward price pressure is significant.
Of course all business try to *maximize* their margins, but how much that's possible varies sector to sector, product to product, and customer segmentation to customer segmentation. For some businesses that might mean pennies per product sold, others hundreds of dollars.
Ya know, capitalism isn't doing so well on this sort of thing either.
this is a false premise. Many well run businesses survive on extremely high volume of low margin goods. Walmart, for a really significant example. Commodities are important, and they are almost universally low margin, because one of the basic features of a commodity product is that the barrier to entry is low so downward price pressure is significant.
Of course all business try to *maximize* their margins, but how much that's possible varies sector to sector, product to product, and customer segmentation to customer segmentation. For some businesses that might mean pennies per product sold, others hundreds of dollars.
Ya know, capitalism isn't doing so well on this sort of thing either.
The drive to the bottom or decreasing profit margins in so many industries has provided a lot of anti-consumer tendancies. Look at video games and airlines as two perfect examples:
Airlines are cheaper now but everything is nickel and dime'd and the customer experience has gone downhill significantly.
Video game production costs have skyrocketed without the prices increasing, so publishers are having to create anti-consumer practices like micro-transactions.
I rather pay a single higher upfront cost and not have to worry about hidden costs everywhere and a good customer experience.
Airlines are cheaper now but everything is nickel and dime'd and the customer experience has gone downhill significantly.
Video game production costs have skyrocketed without the prices increasing, so publishers are having to create anti-consumer practices like micro-transactions.
I rather pay a single higher upfront cost and not have to worry about hidden costs everywhere and a good customer experience.
In many cases iPhone has beat out phones with higher specs too on certain tests, the power of OS optimization..
soundahfekz
Member
Yep. Fuck the nickle and dime business model. Rather pay and be happy with what I get than save a bit of money and have a lackluster or terrible experience. Those stick with you for a while
Everyone has sued everyone. Do you also not support these companies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_patent_law_cases
This. I always laugh when people compare MacBooks to cheap plastic Windows laptops with shitty screens and keyboards, just because they both have the same i7 or something.
makingmusic476
Member
Hangouts is slowly becoming like iMessage, but you have a point. It seems like Hangouts has some level of cross-platform SMS support, but any sign of it appears infrequently, and I hope they complete their solution to that soon.
Referring to my anecdote, the friend in question only owns an iPhone at the moment (though she keeps considering a MBP), and never once has iMessage been something she points too as a compelling feature.
I remember when Apple announced the deal with U2 for their latest album, she got on Facebook and said something like "would any other company buy an album for their customers??" I referred her to a list of free content Google Music has made available over the years.
Though that instance was just sorta weird.
badcrumble
Member
Yeah, Google finishing the integration between Hangouts and SMS and Google Voice will be awfully nice.
Not all patent lawsuits are the same, or equally frivolous. Also, Apple should be held to higher standards than your average patent troll, don't ya think? Just Eli is actually expected to win Super Bowls, unlike his giant choke of a brother.
Stereogatari
Banned
Name me one major company that is innocent.
Indeed. I'm getting ready to circumnavigate the Sony booth 7 times and then throw stones at the Microsoft booth.
Indeed. I'm getting ready to circumnavigate the Sony booth 7 times and then throw stones at the Microsoft booth.
You compated them to oil companies and stated that if people can criticize them they can also criticize Apple. And that's incredibly silly.
What you're saying still doesn't make sense. Customers clearly value iPhones and MacBooks enough to pay what Apple is charging. They could pay less for something else, but they don't. You seem to think this is because commercials manipulated them into making stupid decisions, which is as wrong as it is condescending and arrogant.
This is a subjective determination. People saying they personally don't see enough value to justify them personally spending the money is perfectly fine. They made a decision based on what they want, which is what everyone should do. The problem is when people take this subjective determination of value and assume it's universal and objectively correct.
Personally I don't have a problem with their margin, I have a problem with how they use their profits.
Then again I don't really care I haven't see a product worth my time from them since....2008?
If there's users that are happy with them, more power to them.
They don't fit my standards and offer products missing critical features for me.
I kinda miss their mbp though...
I assume Wacom is making a killing with their Cyntiq but then again if that's the type of product you need, you don't have much of a choice.
Then again I don't really care I haven't see a product worth my time from them since....2008?
If there's users that are happy with them, more power to them.
They don't fit my standards and offer products missing critical features for me.
I kinda miss their mbp though...
I assume Wacom is making a killing with their Cyntiq but then again if that's the type of product you need, you don't have much of a choice.
I know teachers with the same sentiment, but I'm always kind of shocked by the Apple fetishism and fanboyism many people in education and administration appear to have towards Apple products, especially considering how their educational discounts aren't what they used to be.
To be fair consider the alternatives.
I mean when I was big into Apple stuffs nearly a decade ago,
it was certainly better than the overpriced buggy mess the competition was selling.
Disregard the fanboys, you have them for pretty much any product.
All as irrational as the other.
Beerman462
Member
Thanks for calling me an idiot! Maybe go use google to look up how to use MDM, or change the policy so the students get ownership of the iPad, and let the teacher enforce what the student can and can't do with it.
About two years ago I helped implement iPad at a school with about 150 student and another with 100. A year later we had about 15-25 that needed some kind of servicing - this include broken screens, and a guy who tried to jailbraik.
Most if not everyone at those schools are still happy with their decision and all the IT-support is handled by two elderly teachers who like IT. Some of the benefits are:
- highly transportable
- a camera and video camera
- easy to use for students and teachers - some training is needed for teachers :-D
- two teachers can support about 250 students - student had ownership of iPad.
- airplay - a major factor for picking iPads. Students can show of work in front of class without unplucking or plucking in a wire.
- good apps
If you want to know how everything was set up you can PM me
You didn't even comment on his biggest complaint...the price. Your talking about 250 students. $600 ipad vs $150 chrome book. $150,000 for the iPads. $22,500 for chrome books. As a tax payer and a parent I can tell you which one I would choose.
If you're already paying for an expensive phone service with, I presume, unlimited text, why is imessage a killer app?
Beerman462
Member
In the past maybe, but there are serious competitors out their now. The most popular is the Dell XPS 13 and I wouldn't call it shitty. Sony had some competitive products (RIP Vaio). Acer is definitely building some nice Ultrabooks. Apple has a huge advantage in the resale department though. You can recoup a lot of money especially if you upgrade every couple years.
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