Well, I don't believe games are moving to be mainly narrative-driven at all, look at the recent surge of MOBA's and Hero Shooters, there's more recent big games providing some sort of challenge or competition recently than large sprawling stories, that doesn't mean that there aren't or can't be, it's just how the market is right now.
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Why does representation in video games get some people riled up?
- Thread starter Rexatality
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Well, I don't believe games are moving to be mainly narrative-driven at all, look at the recent surge of MOBA's and Hero Shooters, there's more recent big games providing some sort of challenge or competition recently than large sprawling stories, that doesn't mean that there aren't or can't be, it's just how the market is right now.
Fueled System
Member
You could also very well say that the opposite is just as true. Look at the amount of hate FF15 got as a prime example when the main characters were revealed.
IronicSonic
Member
SneakersSO
Member
I don't mind representation in games in any way, shape or form. If you want to make your character/cast/protag/whatever some form of diversity, good on you. If you want to make diversity or diversity issues the center piece, either narrative or thematic, of your game, again, more power to you. If it looks like a game that might appeal to me, I might play it.
What I do mind is the culture surrounding games where they are doing-so as some form of message or agenda or protest, and expect/intend to receive accolades just for doing so. I just don't care about the politics surrounding all this stuff, which in itself is an extension of crazy internet culture wars in general. Of course I pop into the RDR2 thread and its a ton of talk about Rockstar, diversity, and the supposed lack thereof. I just don't care for all the arguing about it. Personally, I just want the creators to make whatever they want to make, whether thats a game featuring an all white-male cast or a rainbow assortment of characters from all walks of life is irrelevant to me.
I get that people care about diversity, almost moreso than the game itself, and that is in part something that does bug me - having to have the discussion of the sequel announcement to one of my favorite games mired with social justice arguments is just annoying, in part because I want to avoid all that nonsense in the first place. Ultimate, I want the RDR2 that Rockstar chose to make, not what everyone on the internet thinks Rockstar should do.
What I do mind is the culture surrounding games where they are doing-so as some form of message or agenda or protest, and expect/intend to receive accolades just for doing so. I just don't care about the politics surrounding all this stuff, which in itself is an extension of crazy internet culture wars in general. Of course I pop into the RDR2 thread and its a ton of talk about Rockstar, diversity, and the supposed lack thereof. I just don't care for all the arguing about it. Personally, I just want the creators to make whatever they want to make, whether thats a game featuring an all white-male cast or a rainbow assortment of characters from all walks of life is irrelevant to me.
I get that people care about diversity, almost moreso than the game itself, and that is in part something that does bug me - having to have the discussion of the sequel announcement to one of my favorite games mired with social justice arguments is just annoying, in part because I want to avoid all that nonsense in the first place. Ultimate, I want the RDR2 that Rockstar chose to make, not what everyone on the internet thinks Rockstar should do.
Yep. I'm not placing the blame on any one group.
The developers can have a vision, and that vision can be shot down or tweaked by the publisher. That's not their fault.
The publisher needs to make money. If they see something that can be changed for a 5% sales bump, they'll do it. Many have shareholders they need to answer to. That's not their fault.
And on and on. Everyone shares in the blame, including us as consumers. But it's a mess. A mess with no easy blanket solution, but there are a lot of smaller steps that can be made to make the problem not so much of a problem. You're actually seeing it now with indies not needing publishers, big companies like Sony and 2K publishing games with female/minority protagonists, and so on. We'll get there, and part of getting there is expressing disappointment in a lack of diversity.
You'd be surprised.
Honestly, if it wasn't for Hollywood push of westerns in the 40's and 50's which cast white men as larger than life roles, we probably wouldn't have any sort of real racial narrative when it came to the old west. Roy Rogers has more to do with your perception of pre 1900's west than any true american story involving the frontier.
This is certainly true as well
Looked more like someone saw a few silhouettes and made a assumption based on that which in turn seemed to make people angry at them for making assumptions based on a poster.
I don't know, it all happened so fast.
But when it comes to diversity/minorities I think Rockstar have done a good job if you look at their games.
Acquiescence
Member
At the same time, don't you think that some people are just that little bit too eager to push the representation angle? This game got announced and the only bit of media that accompanied it was a poster of seven silhouetted figures whose role they play in the game we have no idea. We don't know if they're playable or not, if they're allies or villains, or how central to the plot they are. Yet literally in the first page of the thread there are people getting "riled up" about the lack of diversity, based on very little evidence.
It goes both ways.
It goes both ways.
Exactly.
Crash Station
Member
What I've observed is people complain more when the opposite side complains about lack of diversity. It's a bizarre upholding of the status quo while simultaneously being fine with it broken provided the attitude of the opposing side isn't condescending.
Did anyone complain about Lee in TWD? Serious question.
Did anyone complain about Lee in TWD? Serious question.
Why are you limiting it to Gaming GAF? GAF is made up of at least 10,000 active users on both sides. It can be considered certain there's plenty of people on both sides that could be considered both, but obviously aren't going to talk about it or generally ignore those topics in general because they dont' want to get banned.
EstoyBlackWaldo
Member
"Your problems are not/will never be my problems so I can't relate."
I don't get it either. But I assume thats the frame of thought.
Muffdraul
Member
I believe in free speech, sure.
WickedLaharl
Member
Was there a trailer i missed? Surely just the silhouette poster isn't enough to start freaking out, right?
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Bingo.
When you are in a position of privilege equality feels like oppression.
They can't or don't want to cope and empathize so they lash out.
I think most of it stems from the current climate in entertainment where more people are becoming outspoken about it, so more people are correcting the issue, and thus leading other people to believe that creators are being forced to insert unnecessary/irrelevant minority or female characters to appeal to a specific audience or to avoid backlash, instead of seeing it as creators having to worry less about including non-whites now that many people openly acknowledge they'd prefer a diverse cast.
Basically, I think the people that are angry about it assume it's pandering and/or leftist fanservice with no substance, before even giving them a proper chance.
Basically, I think the people that are angry about it assume it's pandering and/or leftist fanservice with no substance, before even giving them a proper chance.
Personally I don't care one way or the other. Media has never really represented me or my background meaningfully outside of stereotypes. It's great seeing more and more diverse casts, as it really lets stories go in places they would have otherwise never gone. As long as these representations are done well, and are done in ways that don't shoehorn those they represent as stereotypes then they have done a good job.
The one I normally point towards in Bill from TLoU. He was not a stereotype, he was written as any other character was and his sexuality was not what defined him but was just another aspect of Bill as a character. It made Bill more rounded. Just as in reality, people aren't gay first and then their characteristics afterwards, they are actual people that just happen to be gay.
Those that can't grasp that there are more than just themselves in the world and that have some underlying issues or hate are the ones that generally get upset when what they deem as the status quo gets challenged. They tend to be loud but they are becoming less and less of an issue.
All this being said, I will say something that might upset some people here. The other extreme is also not good. Demanding that a story have to have some sort of minority representation or raging against a company/artist/writer that their new character in their game doesn't fit some minimum quote for diversity and claiming they are somehow evil or bigots is also not right.
An artist or company making a form of art may have a specific story with a specific character they are writing for and that is within their right to do so. It might be because the primary creative in charge is taking form their background experiences or is more comfortable writing in the sphere that they know (as oppose so say a man writing a female lead when they don't know the right tone or the past experiences to write a woman correctly). Obviously they can be helped with the addition to more diversity in the positions of the creatives. Now obviously in cases where a company DEMANDS a characters background is changed for the sake of selling more and changing the vision of the creatives original goal, then of course we all have the right to complain.
The one I normally point towards in Bill from TLoU. He was not a stereotype, he was written as any other character was and his sexuality was not what defined him but was just another aspect of Bill as a character. It made Bill more rounded. Just as in reality, people aren't gay first and then their characteristics afterwards, they are actual people that just happen to be gay.
Those that can't grasp that there are more than just themselves in the world and that have some underlying issues or hate are the ones that generally get upset when what they deem as the status quo gets challenged. They tend to be loud but they are becoming less and less of an issue.
All this being said, I will say something that might upset some people here. The other extreme is also not good. Demanding that a story have to have some sort of minority representation or raging against a company/artist/writer that their new character in their game doesn't fit some minimum quote for diversity and claiming they are somehow evil or bigots is also not right.
An artist or company making a form of art may have a specific story with a specific character they are writing for and that is within their right to do so. It might be because the primary creative in charge is taking form their background experiences or is more comfortable writing in the sphere that they know (as oppose so say a man writing a female lead when they don't know the right tone or the past experiences to write a woman correctly). Obviously they can be helped with the addition to more diversity in the positions of the creatives. Now obviously in cases where a company DEMANDS a characters background is changed for the sake of selling more and changing the vision of the creatives original goal, then of course we all have the right to complain.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Exactly, dudes be trying to act like women and minorities are some sort of mythical unrelatable fantasy.
Rexatality
Member
I'm speaking from my experience. For me, it seems a lot of ignorant or dumb opinions in regards to social or representation issues comes from Gaming GAF.
Granted, there are plenty of ignorant and dumb opinions in OT GAF. But I'm speaking mainly on Gaming GAF.
The poster , The fact it's called Redemption 2, No PC at launch
No just a teaser poster where you can't really make out the ethnicities of the characters. Wouldn't be surprised if this will look pretty silly once the trailer releases.
It's popular enough that at least some people have. I don't really remember on the Telltale forums when it was being released. I think the closes racial issue I could think being brought up was how it could be seen as
racist for Lee to be a criminal that killed someone who slept with his wife.
While true, at the same time, look at all the people beating down Blizzard's door for an Overwatch cartoon. Look at how China is clamoring for a second and third Warcraft movie. Look at how Riot is steadily swallowing studios whole in order to make more games that serve as companion pieces to LOL that enhance the lore while offering different gameplay experiences.
People want that stuff. There's money there. But a lot of the times, the developers just want to focus on making their game work as well is it can. But that doesn't mean that there aren't people who only play, for example, Kerrigan in HOTS because they loved Kerrigan as a character in Starcraft.
User 479360
Banned
I think the first post nails part of it. People also want to be represented in general.
As a white person, I cannot say I completely understand the world of racism or sexism, but I like to think I try not to be ignorant of it. I don't care if the character in my video games is black, white, Asian, etc. or gay, straight, etc. let alone male or female.
That said, it's easier for me to identify with caucasian characters.
As a white person, I cannot say I completely understand the world of racism or sexism, but I like to think I try not to be ignorant of it. I don't care if the character in my video games is black, white, Asian, etc. or gay, straight, etc. let alone male or female.
That said, it's easier for me to identify with caucasian characters.
Just started reading this thread - don't care much about the read dead games - but is it going to be full of people who somehow think that America in the Wild West period is all white people? Forgetting the slaves and freedmen, the Asian workers used to build railroads, and so on?
RichiRamjag
Member
Exactly how I feel (bolded section).
entremet
Member
No trailer. Only image.
Not the original poster you quoted but I always felt The Witcher 3 being a good example. The Witcher being heavily based by Polish folklore and made by Polish developers, set in a world that very much resembles Poland (and in the second expansion, France). But when the game released, there was a lot of complaining that there weren't any black people in the game.
I'm all for representation of minorities, and I'm for it because it makes the world more 'realistic', even if it's made-up. The world the game takes place in needs to feel like a real place. When you start adding in minorities not to make the game-world a more realistic setting but just to fill a quota, that's when you're shoehorning in. And it annoys me as much as whitewashing folklore and stories from other parts of the world.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Remember when Mafia III was announced and peeps were saying that t doesn't feel like the Mafia because the main character is black? Aka the terribly stupid implication that there was never a black mafia. It's almost like the constant whitewashing and constant catering to white men only has had an effect on the perception of history and what is and isn't acceptable in historical settings.
It gets pretty bad yea.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I have been told to shut up and relate to white characters my entire life.
You guys can get used to relating to non-white characters the same way I had to.
You guys can get used to relating to non-white characters the same way I had to.
I think we can assume, based on Rockstar's track record, that we will not and should not expect any decent female characters in their games that have any sort of prominent role that doesn't end with them being murdered or defiled.
I think THAT'S why people are more mad here. It's not that there's no diversity, it's that it's yet ANOTHER game where we can expect R* to drop the ball when it comes to what little female or racial representation it does have.
I mean, let's take bets now, using the Sarkessian definition, how many women will appear to be interesting characters, then almost instantly be relegated as "the ball" in between two teams of men?
RichiRamjag
Member
Yeah, that's a crock, mate. Those people post just the same.
Kelegacy
XBOX - RECORD ME LOVING DOWN MY WOMAN GOOD
I would like to have a civil discussion about all of this but the fear of banning is ever present. There has to be 2 sides to every argument whether you agree or not.
Diversity for any reason is a good thing i think most people can agree with but some people do take issue when posters start getting mean when they see a protagonist as another white male. "Oh look, another white guy" sounds so derogatory. I think some people see that as a personal attack. If the same comment was turned around, i doubt it would be accepted in civil discourse.
I think there is great fodder for an honest, mild-mannered discussion, but only if the first instinct isn't to ban or silence any dissenters.
Diversity for any reason is a good thing i think most people can agree with but some people do take issue when posters start getting mean when they see a protagonist as another white male. "Oh look, another white guy" sounds so derogatory. I think some people see that as a personal attack. If the same comment was turned around, i doubt it would be accepted in civil discourse.
I think there is great fodder for an honest, mild-mannered discussion, but only if the first instinct isn't to ban or silence any dissenters.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
Why would that be a problem?
WickedLaharl
Member
Disproportionate standards bullshit here. Like one person got riled up. Everyone else was just discussing expectations and concerns about the game, as in every reveal thread on GAF ever. Why is it taboo to discuss representation? People were talking about game systems, platforms, and everything else, but people were only offended by the conversation when people began questioning the whiteness of the characters. People were mad about a lack of PC release, but you didn't have a legion of posters demanding they calm their outrage and wait for more trailers. That was saved for people who wanted to talk about inclusion. Your false equivalency out is ineffective and embarrassing.
curiouscharles
Member
this is an interesting question.
why are racists racist?
why are bigots bigoted?
really wish i knew the answer, but it's fun to watch them lose their shit, especially when they accuse us tolerant people of being fascists for trying to limit their freedom of expression [of course failing to note that their freedom of expression is literally a hate crime].
why are racists racist?
why are bigots bigoted?
really wish i knew the answer, but it's fun to watch them lose their shit, especially when they accuse us tolerant people of being fascists for trying to limit their freedom of expression [of course failing to note that their freedom of expression is literally a hate crime].
Forsythia
Member
Just read the first page and within a few posts you can see why.
To make it clear, there is nothing wrong with wanting more diversity in games or other media. I don't give a shit if the protagonist is a woman, black, asian or whatever. As long as the game is fun, I'm all for it. You won't see me crying over a game where the characters aren't (just) white males.
But to almost immediately derail the thread of the announcement of Red Dead Redemption 2 is another thing. Why not make a new thread where you can discuss the (lack of) diversity in the game? Not everyone wants to discuss these things.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
There are a lot of people who are really sensitive to the criticism of things they like. There was a lot of that in the RDR thread. They take it as some sort of attack against the medium of video games if there is any discussion of its problems, even among people who love games.
Forceatowulf
G***n S**n*bi
What's that old quote? "When you've enjoyed privilege for so long equality seems like oppression."
yup...
yup...
Ordinaryundone
Member
You, uh, you didn't play Red Dead Redemption did you?
Necron
Member
I agree, very good post.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
There are many people on GAF, especially in that red dead thread, who get riled up at even the thought of having to possibly discuss diversity in gaming on a discussion forum. Like just that thought and then suddenly it's about
-artistic integrity
-creative freedom
-shoehorned diversity
-when games were about fun
all which are so unbelievably laughable when you consider just how much games are adjusted to appeal to a mass audience compared to auteur projects.
Mediking
Member
Sometimes finding a well written black character in a JRPG is quite impossible... or just a black character that isn't stereotypical... or just a black character AT ALL. Huge props to Fire Emblem Fates and Awakening and Xenoblade Chronicles X because they did it right.... mostly.
Ditto.
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