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[Skyzard]

No offense, but mainline mario games don't need to do anything that LBP did. LBP is nice for what it is, but over all it cannot hold the jockstrap of Marios platforming.

I would much prefer they spend their time making the platforming itself as good as it is, rather than ending up with a LBP situation where the controls feel so floaty and loose and I end up relying on gamers to make some decent platforming levels. Frustrates me just thinking about LBP, I was so disappointed with that game man. That first GDC trailer had me fucking hype.

Floaty jumping is down to design choice, it's not a byproduct of adding a level editor and an online infrastructure to download games. That's why you are able to see the newer games be less and less floaty...while still having an editor. The campaign levels are usually still the best, but there's a whole lot of extra fun to be had with user levels.

With 2D mario, creating levels would be so easy and so many people would be up to the task of making good levels it's a real shame we aren't seeing them. Sort of surprised there haven't been popular PC clones. Maybe they get shut down or no one actually cares.

Yep, on Thursday

Thanks. Eventually, it will be mine.

New Super Mario Bros Wii actually has quite a few hacked versions too. They look pretty good too.

http://newerteam.com/

Not too shabby.

 

[Alienous]

How so? Can't a full game still be polished and have a simple level creator tool?

Exactly. LittleBigPlanet has shown us that, if you are willing to search through the shit, their are diamond levels that will surpass 99% of what Nintendo would do.

I think it's only a matter of time before Nintendo make a "Super Mario Bros. Infinite".

 

[Instro]

They should make it a DLC down the road, after they have finished developing and releasing their their own level packs, since they likely won't be releasing another NSMB on the WiiU. It would certainly help to keep people coming back to the game later in the consoles lifecycle, even if most levels would be poorly made. Definitely would be good if they could pair it with some sort of content rating system to push good levels to the top of the pile.

Exactly. LittleBigPlanet has shown us that, if you are willing to search through the shit, their are diamond levels that will surpass 99% of what Nintendo would do.

I think it's only a matter of time before Nintendo make a "Super Mario Bros. Infinite".

lol. LBP is fucking awful at platforming, so its not even worth bringing into any discussion on the genre.

 

[Portugeezer]

Money

 

[0xCA2]

New Super Mario Bros Wii actually has quite a few hacked versions too. They look pretty good too.

http://newerteam.com/

neat, i gotta look at that

 

[Madouu]

Money

Go see what Valve is doing with its games, you can make even more money by allowing things like a level editor or user created content to be possible. Those don't always equal free.

 

[Instro]

Go see what Valve is doing with its games, you can make even more money by allowing things like a level editor or user created content to be possible. Those don't always equal free.

I'd buy a Mario hat simulator.

 

[Reversed]

Nintendo likely doesn't see any value in it. Any levels created would fall into one of these categories:

1) Shit
2) Remakes of levels from older games
3) Remakes of levels from non-Mario games
4) Penises and swastikas
5) Impossible ROM hack styled stages
6) Good, fun to play levels

See: every other game with user created content. There'd be so little content that falls into #6, especially compared to the rest that players would have to slog through to even find the #6s, that it's never been worth the investment.

Most of these depend on the tools provided, as seen on Brawl's stage editors.

Besides, the stage submission (if available) would pass through a dreadful moderation that accepts no obscenities or double entendres.

 

[King_Moc]

They were having discussions about this internally, if I remember right. Iwata has definitely mentioned it before.

 

[Alienous]

lol. LBP is fucking awful at platforming, so its not even worth bringing into any discussion on the genre.

Do me a favour. Have a read of this.

 

[Arc Christelle]

This seems like a no brainer to me. What LittleBigPlanet did, Nintendo should have done first with at least minimal level design tools. It would have been the Mario Paint of this past generation, and to this day it still has yet to happen. Mario's side-scroller gameplay and simple assets lend itself perfectly for a map editor tool for user-generated content, and even despite Nintendo having a shitty online infrastructure for level sharing I would have expected a local level editor by now at the very least.

Are they that afraid of penises? Or is it because they don't want their fanbase not relying solely on them for new Mario content?

I'm probably the only person here who's against it, and actually hates Little Big Planet, but I'll give you my reasons why. (IMO)

1. It cheapens the experience. (MUGEN, LBP, Modnation Racers)
2. It makes me lose interest in the main focus of the actual game presented.
3. When it's all done, you may have come up with a unique experience but for some reason you will still crave for the real thing.
4. It doesn't need it, that's Nintendo's job.
5. No
6. Shitty online infrastructure ain't got shit to do with it, you could share level designs in SSBB.
7. I don't mind a cart editor, but despite as much dickriding User Generated content get, especially from the Sony Fanbase, Modnation Racers and Little Big Planet still manage to feel shallow as shit.

lol. LBP is fucking awful at platforming, so its not even worth bringing into any discussion on the genre.

I love you GAF.

 

[Skyzard]

Arc Christelle - terrible post. There are issues with adding a level editor, but also solutions to them. It also clearly outweighs not having an editor. Also platforming in the Vita version of LBP is actually pretty fantastic (and I'm a big platforming fan, from Super Meat Boy to Super Monkey Ball). I didn't like the first one much though (floaty, frame drops) and the market was indeed flooded with levels. Vita version was done right, and has the team picks mentioned below but best is the website dedicated to the levels and following creators and what they are up to in-game/auto queuing levels on the vita etc.

Nintendo likely doesn't see any value in it. Any levels created would fall into one of these categories:

1) Shit
2) Remakes of levels from older games
3) Remakes of levels from non-Mario games
4) Penises and swastikas
5) Impossible ROM hack styled stages
6) Good, fun to play levels

See: every other game with user created content. There'd be so little content that falls into #6, especially compared to the rest that players would have to slog through to even find the #6s, that it's never been worth the investment.

Having a "Nintendo Team Picks" section to identify the 6)'s would help too

 

[Artorias]

I'd imagine it has to do with how important level design is to a platformer with decent physics. They probably don't want to be in a situation like LBP where less than 1% of the levels are fun to play, and the vast majority have glitches. I love LBP, but it can be annoying as fuck to spend 4 minutes loading a broken level.

 

[Haunted]

I think you know why.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

lol. LBP is fucking awful at platforming, so its not even worth bringing into any discussion on the genre.

The platforming may well be floaty and imprecise, but I don't think you can write off what they've done in terms of their creation and sharing tools. Just as you can't write off the various advances Nintendo have made over the years just because they're mind-boggling inept about so many other things.

 

[Alienous]

I'm probably the only person here who's against it, and actually hates Little Big Planet, but I'll give you my reasons why. (IMO)

1. It cheapens the experience. (MUGEN, LBP, Modnation Racers) How does it cheapen the experience in those cases, when creation is the focus of those experiences?
2. It makes me lose interest in the main focus of the actual game presented. Because you have more options?
3. When it's all done, you may have come up with a unique experience but for some reason you will still crave for the real thing. Which will still be there, plus extras.
4. It doesn't need it, that's Nintendo's job. Eh ... debatable. What's the last 2D Mario level you can remember? Because I can remember tons of fan-created LBP levels.
5. No Yes?
6. Shitty online infrastructure ain't got shit to do with it, you could share level designs in SSBB. Which means you're ... against it?
7. I don't mind a cart editor, but despite as much dickriding User Generated content get, especially from the Sony Fanbase, Modnation Racers and Little Big Planet still manage to feel shallow as shit.Would you be opposed to designing Mario Kart level's also? If not, what's the difference?

Yeah ... no.

 

[Tunavi]

so you buy the next game.

 

[Dark Octave]

"...when content is being created and made available for free, that it is devaluing content, and is potentially devaluing the expectation of consumers for what content should be. ..."

-Reggie

Not that I agree with that, but that seems to be Nintendo's philosophy on the matter.

It's 100% true.

Anything free sets the standard for what should be payed for.

 

[Alienous]

It's 100% true.

Anything free sets the standard for what should be payed for.

Yep. When people design levels that put Nintendo's to shame, who's going to buy Super Luigi U?

 

[JoeM86]

It's 100% true.

Anything free sets the standard for what should be payed for.

You just have to look at iOS gaming for that. Due to iOS App Store pricing, people expect/demand ridiculously, and unsustainable, low prices for all games across all formats.

 

[Skyzard]

Yep. When people design levels that put Nintendo's to shame, who's going to buy Super Luigi U?

I understand the logic and worry but the answer is everyone that had loads of fun with the community of the first game with the level designer and want the new features and tools and levels... NSMB needs it to stop it fading away as a less and less important game.

 

[Instro]

The platforming may well be floaty and imprecise, but I don't think you can write off what they've done in terms of their creation and sharing tools. Just as you can't write off the various advances Nintendo have made over the years just because they're mind-boggling inept about so many other things.

Better to reference the PC scene rather than mention terrible games.

 

[King_Moc]

Yep. When people design levels that put Nintendo's to shame, who's going to buy Super Luigi U?

Yep, all those 2d platformers that are much better than Mario are testament to how easy it is.

 

[Alienous]

Yep, all those 2d platformers that are much better than Mario are testament to how easy it is.

Sarcasm? Tell me, which 2D platformers are expressively worse?

(I seriously can't tell if you're being sarcastic).

 

[King_Moc]

Sarcasm? Tell me, which 2D platformers are expressively worse?

(I seriously can't tell if you're being sarcastic).

It was sarcasm, sorry. The only 2D one I've played that's in the same league is Super Meat Boy.

 

[Roto13]

Because they feared you would outdo them in terms of creativity.

I know people like to act like NSMB is the blandest thing that has ever existed, but they have really, really good level design.

So, you know. No.

 

[King_Moc]

I know people like to act like NSMB is the blandest thing that has ever existed, but they have really, really good level design.

So, you know. No.

Someone needs to post some of those speed run videos. The design in some of those levels really is stunning.

 

[Alienous]

It was sarcasm, sorry. The only 2D one I've played that's in the same league is Super Meat Boy.

Right, well I wasn't being sarcastic when I asked which 2D platformers you think are worse than Mario. I can't assume that you have played all of them, after all. As it stands, Super Meat Boy is as good as NSMB according to you. Team Meat isn't opposed to the idea of a level editor, so I don't know how including one would impact the quality of the main game.

To others, I ask for a memorable 2D level in a NSMB game. Because it would seem that whenever I play them, they could just as easily been generated by a computer. They are, mostly, generic and unchallenging. Only the final level of New Super Mario Bros. for the DS do I think had an interesting concept.

 

[EloquentM]

Because they feared you would outdo them in terms of creativity.

Sounds about right.

They know the community will end up making a better Mario game than they can, so they don't want to get shown up.

Not saying this isnt possible but it's silly. Why would a company even care?

 

[Spinluck]

Same reason LeBron won't do the dunk contest.

 

[Alienous]

Not saying this isnt possible but it's silly. Why would a company even care?

It makes level DLC, which Nintendo is getting into, less important. That's one thing.

It could also make sequels seem pointless (LittleBigPlanet 2 was viewed this was for a long time), and Nintendo love their sequels.

 

[Tain]

Simply rearranging things that already exist in the game isn't worthwhile. If you can't make your own assets and enemies and unique gadgets (the stuff you'd see in official DLC or sequels, in other words), what's the point?

 

[Jocchan]

Not saying this isnt possible but it's silly. Why would a company even care?

Who cares about money? It's all about street cred.

 

[electroplankton]

How many people posting here have actually played NSMB Wii and / or U? Because the level design is really, really good.

Anyway, it seems it's not much a concern for Nintendo. It's not that they don't want to, they already released games with editing, and they were pretty successful in that (Pushmo, WarioWare DIY).

 

[Instro]

I know people like to act like NSMB is the blandest thing that has ever existed, but they have really, really good level design.

So, you know. No.

Somewhat, it got better with NSMBWii and NSMBU. DKCR is the only truly great 2d platformer of recent times though, although held back a bit by the wiimote stuff.

 

[ThatStupidLion]

you mean reusing the game's elements and art to build variations of levels, while retaining the same gameplay?

nintendo calls that a sequel

 

[.GqueB.]

You could fill a book with "why hasn't Nintendo made a"s

 

[Arc Christelle]

Yeah ... no.

Arc Christelle - terrible post. There are issues with adding a level editor, but also solutions to them. It also clearly outweighs not having an editor. Also platforming in the Vita version of LBP is actually pretty fantastic (and I'm a big platforming fan, from Super Meat Boy to Super Monkey Ball). I didn't like the first one much though (floaty, frame drops) and the market was indeed flooded with levels. Vita version was done right, and has the team picks mentioned below but best is the website dedicated to the levels and following creators and what they are up to in-game/auto queuing levels on the vita etc.



Having a "Nintendo Team Picks" section to identify the 6)'s would help too

If Mario Kart had a Kart editor I wouldn't mind but a Track editor, I probably wouldn't be down for, (even though I think it's stronger in F-Zero) but I am one of those people that sometimes believe limitations are necessary.

One of my biggest problems with LBP and Modnation Racers is that it focuses so heavily on user created content that the actual game feels as if it offers nothing, and I am a platforming fan.

I would be just as opposed to the same with Sonic games, (yes, I know that there are some people who have done righteous mods for the game and etc.) But that's not everywhere, and in the end you can't help but to feel if the original creators would've done more with the design that's not available through the tools they give you.

As for LBP, I've played LBP 1 and LBP 2.... It's not getting any better for me. Matter infact when I played the Rayman Legends demo I thought about LBP and got pissed. Despite all the user generated content, and playing with my friends, all I could think about was NSMB Wii. A lot of people like LBP, but the game has no character or any real strengths to me. I might as well grab a doll and hop around my room with it.

But I'll be fair enough to meet you all on the middle ground. If Nintendo would provide me with a FULL Mario Game, with the fantastic experience they usually offer, I wouldn't mind the stage editor, especially if you could discover more pieces by playing it through. (because most likely you all are thinking of a Dream game and never consider what you might ACTUALLY get.)

EDIT: It all reminds me of MUGEN, it's a decent fighting game engine and most people hopped on it, with intentions to make their dream matches, but at the end of the day, it doesn't feel real.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

The existence of awesome Mario romhacks/mods has never prevented me from buying the official entries as far as I'm concerned.

Nintendo users are also less smart due to most of them being kids.

wow

 

[Alienous]

Simply rearranging things that already exist in the game isn't worthwhile. If you can't make your own assets and enemies and unique gadgets (the stuff you'd see in official DLC or sequels, in other words), what's the point?

Nintendo have done pretty much this, adding one new power-up each NSMB sequel. A 'New Super Mario Bros. Infinite', which becomes a platform for people to make levels, could be updated with assets and enemies with editable behaviours.

you mean reusing the game's elements and art to build variations of levels, while retaining the same gameplay?

nintendo calls that a sequel

Done and done.

 

[braves01]

you mean reusing the game's elements and art to build variations of levels, while retaining the same gameplay?

nintendo calls that a sequel

Most companies call that a sequel.

And user-created levels are generally garbage so it's not like we're missing much. I mean honestly people bitched about levels in NSMB 2 being from the "B-Team," do you really think anyone out there not already a dev is going to make something better?

 

[Oblivion]

Simply rearranging things that already exist in the game isn't worthwhile. If you can't make your own assets and enemies and unique gadgets (the stuff you'd see in official DLC or sequels, in other words), what's the point?

I dunno. There were some pretty awesome SMW hacks out there.

 

[Sendou]

I'm not sure if I would want them focusing on new levels or a level editor. Probably new levels to be honest.

 

[EloquentM]

It makes level DLC, which Nintendo is getting into, less important. That's one thing.

It could also make sequels seem pointless (LittleBigPlanet 2 was viewed this was for a long time), and Nintendo love their sequels.

Okay, that was not the point of the posts I quoted though.

 

[Arc Christelle]

wow

Before I even became a Junior I already knew who sprouted the most nonsense. After all Nintendo "tricked" us into buying their consoles. >_>

But that's for another discussion.

 

[Tain]

Nintendo have done pretty much this, adding one new power-up each NSMB sequel.

...and new enemies and new bosses and new stage gimmicks and new assets (to a degree), etc

What I'm getting at is that 2D action games in general work best when their stages and the entities in their stages are made in tandem from the ground-up rather than simply having stages that are cobbled together with whatever pre-made assets and logic is available.

They absolutely could turn NSMB into a platform and I'm sure it would have an audience, but much like Rockman Powered Up custom stages, I wouldn't care about them.

I dunno. There were some pretty awesome SMW hacks out there.

I guarantee that Lunar Magic will give someone more control than any in-game editor Nintendo would make.

 

[Alienous]

Most companies call that a sequel.

And user-created levels are generally garbage so it's not like we're missing much.

And NSMB levels are generally fantastic? I'd disagree. They're passable. Perhaps decent. Certainly derivative, with perhaps 5% of all of the levels being interesting.

You'd get a similar output of great levels from incorporating a level designer. It would be mostly crap though, I agree.

 

[Sendou]

And NSMB levels are generally fantastic?

Only NSMBU is in my fresh memory but based on that; yes.

 

[Alienous]

...and new enemies and new bosses and new stage gimmicks and new assets (to a degree), etc

What I'm getting at is that 2D action games in general work best when their stages and the entities in their stages are made in tandem from the ground-up rather than simply having stages that are cobbled together with whatever pre-made assets and logic is available.

They absolutely could turn NSMB into a platform and I'm sure it would have an audience, but much like Rockman Powered Up custom stages, I wouldn't care about them.

Yeah, I think I phrased that wrongly.

Nintendo reintroduce one new power-up per NSMB sequel. And enemies, and bosses etc.

Your second point is very true, but Mario games feel static and 'gridded' in their nature. Super Mario World wasn't like this, but the NSMB games do feel like they're comprised of 'copy-and-paste'-ed tiles, pipes, blocks and enemies. I'm sure a simple level editor would suffice in creating 95% of the NSMB levels.

 

[braves01]

And NSMB levels are generally fantastic? I'd disagree. They're passable. Perhaps decent. Certainly derivative, with perhaps 5% of all of the levels being interesting.

You'd get a similar output of great levels from incorporating a level designer. It would be mostly crap though, I agree.

Quoted before the edit. I hate when that happens. Anyways, yeah I think I agree with your point (except that I think NSMB levels are generally very good). It's not like a flood of great levels and ideas is being held back from players by lack of a level editor, though there may be a good one here or there.