cutmeamango
Banned
This forum has been a death trap as of lately.
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Why I Am a Male Feminist (article)
- Thread starter Dead Man
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Amibguous Cad
Member
In other words, "Why I'm a feminist."
John Rabbit
Banned
i don't get the article. guy thinks he's paving new ground by not being a complete bastard like his father?
Yeah... I see exactly where 12S went wrong too.
I don't see how its really a for or against thing. Not feminism itself anyways. Its not like these people are out burning bras.
shadowsdarknes
Member
Because it seems everyone's view on feminism is different. It just isn't worth getting into with a passionate feminist because in my experiences their ideals differ from one another, besides equal rights.
Some just can't grasp the biological differences between genders. That's what I was getting at. That is why I find discussions about feminism problematic.
Please, elaborate.
I can't make sense of any of this.
It's not worth talking to them because as a group they don't have a cohesive message? Why not try and figure out what message the individual has?
Before you crucify yourself, say that there MIGHT be different definition between differing opinions between the sexes (what it sounds like you're talking about) and feminism. There's a possibility you're wrong - just a possibility. So ask for someone to clarify. Even if its for no other reason to confirm your beliefs.
Because the dot has been placed on your ass too lol
kame-sennin
Member
Not sure if serious. If half the population of the planet fears being raped every night, society is fucked up. And your gay society hypothetical is beyond ridiculous.
And we're done here.
Devolution
Member
Unless he's running into feminists who insist men and women's sports need to be integrated I don't see his god damn point.
I've never understood why people get so worked up by differences in athletic ability between the sexes. We didn't climb to the top of the food chain because of brute strength/speed. Throw the most badass human being into a ring naked with another carnivore (take your pick) that's half his body weight and see how long it lasts.
PastorOfMuppets
Banned
I swear, every time a topic about feminism is brought up anywhere but a forum dedicated specifically towards feminism (and even that's like a 50/50 proposition) about 30-50% of the replies are "But what about the men?!!!"
My Sedatives
Banned
This thread is reflected in the last episode of House.
Roger Danish
Member
Although this same exact thing happens in threads on issues of race, it does appear to be more ubiquitous in feminism threads. I'm amazed that people who are progressive in most other areas are so regressive on feminism.
I'm not sure I understand. Even the original article includes men in the discussion. What exactly are you referring to?
Vermillion
Banned
Devolution
Member
Did you miss the "feminists don't talk about other grievances" discussion we just had or what?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its not even that there's no merit to the idea: there are problems that disproportionately affect men (although I wouldn't go so far as to say there are near as many as women face). But it doesn't have to come up in threads specifically about feminism.
Vermillion
Banned
To be fair, I understand the point about noting the issues of both sides, but I also understand the point about arguing for one.
If I may bring race in for a moment, black people were kind of focused on solving their issues and that was fine due to the gravity of the situation.
While similar grants should be made for women, I don't necessarily find it out of place to mention societal issues that men face so long as it isn't spontaneous (while we're talking about the implications of rape for women, bringing up the fact that men suffer from rape too may be a tad out of place).
Equal gender discussion should always exist, though - not one at the cost of the other.
If I may bring race in for a moment, black people were kind of focused on solving their issues and that was fine due to the gravity of the situation.
While similar grants should be made for women, I don't necessarily find it out of place to mention societal issues that men face so long as it isn't spontaneous (while we're talking about the implications of rape for women, bringing up the fact that men suffer from rape too may be a tad out of place).
Equal gender discussion should always exist, though - not one at the cost of the other.
This is definitely true.
I like your stats, they're about 83%.
Devolution
Member
You'd be surprised. I've been plenty accused of man hatin', on this very forum no less =).
Honestly, I think it's the fem bit and the negative stereotypes that have surrounded it is what has cause people to write it off.
PastorOfMuppets
Banned
Yeah, it's pretty prevalent in race threads as well. There's always a bunch of people out there - and I'm not singling out NeoGaf or anyone in particular because this is a problem on the internet in general, that basically think that people pointing out that white people enjoy privileges because of their race and men enjoy privileges because of their gender is the same as calling a black person a n-----.
Arrowgigantic
Member
It was pretty damn ubiquitous in that thread about the lady who wrote a book about trying to buy her daily needs from only black-owned businesses for a year. Really sad that so many GAFers are like that.
That episode was fucking garbage, I was cringing the whole time.
For either side, bringing up the troubles of the white male is going to seem... a bit off-putting.
I agree with most of what you say though.
That thread was just a fucking shame.
shadowsdarknes
Member
Ok, so to clarify what I'm talking about because it appears people in here are misinterpreting me. No worries, the message is hard to convey in two sentences on a message board. Alas, I digress.
What I'm saying is in my experiences with proclaimed feminists in person, having face to face conversations has been frustrating. Frustrating because every female or male I've met has a different definition of feminism. Some of their opinions have even been extreme and rash therefore I would rather avoid the issue altogether.
That's all. Nothing ever is resolved in these conversations so in my opinion it's not worth getting worked up over.
What I am not saying is women don't deserve equal treatment, or that they can't perform the same jobs as men, etc. They obviously do. So I guess I don't understand why laser pointers and pitchforks are outside of my bedroom window.
Edit: To be honest, rereading my last message did come off wrong and was lazily typed so I apologize.
What I'm saying is in my experiences with proclaimed feminists in person, having face to face conversations has been frustrating. Frustrating because every female or male I've met has a different definition of feminism. Some of their opinions have even been extreme and rash therefore I would rather avoid the issue altogether.
That's all. Nothing ever is resolved in these conversations so in my opinion it's not worth getting worked up over.
What I am not saying is women don't deserve equal treatment, or that they can't perform the same jobs as men, etc. They obviously do. So I guess I don't understand why laser pointers and pitchforks are outside of my bedroom window.
Edit: To be honest, rereading my last message did come off wrong and was lazily typed so I apologize.
Well, most women take precautions when going out, so yes, in a way, half of the population of the planet fears being raped every night. Maybe not actively afraid, but at least cautious.
That one would be afraid of being raped is almost completely an issue of general, inherent physical differences between men and women, both the (overly) aggressive nature of male behavior and the more petite physical status of women. This is something that I don't necessarily view as directly related to "equal rights" for women. It's a horrible, violent crime, like murder...one that needs to be corrected, but it can't be corrected in the same way that something like discriminatory hiring practices can.
That was just 12STS, though. I thought he was talking about something pervasive throughout this thread, and I just didn't see it. Anyways, thanks for explaining if that is indeed what he meant.
Vermillion
Banned
It certainly would be, but I believe it would be disingenuous to ignore the fact that they have troubles too - their history isn't necessarily the modern generation's fault.
Devolution
Member
No it's just something that comes up a lot in discussions of issues pertaining to women. Like the stats thread about just how many women suffer through domestic abuse had plenty of people posting variations of "oh yeah well men get abused too." This is just one example I can recall off the top of my head.
Better attitudes towards victims and generating more respect for women can definitely help. Physical differences is not really the problem with rape, the problems are social.
dr3upmushroom
Banned
Reading stuff like this is always really awkward for me. All of the things that this guy learned are things that any adult should. Unless this was written by an 16 year old it just seems like a public admittance of ignorance, except the author is somehow proud of himself.
I'm glad he's more aware of some social issues now, but to me the title of the article may as well be "I saw a girl's pee pee and it looked different than mine."
I mean he wasn't aware that women carry pepper spray, watch who they accept drinks from, etc? I don't get how it's possible not to be aware of these things, they're things you pick up from being a part of our society. It's as if he went to sports bar and thought "Huh, I never noticed before but football seems to be a big deal in this country."
Oh my god, if you're honestly asking this you have no idea. When I transferred to my current college I was doing a double major with Sociology and I took multiple classes where a professor would start a class by asking "Raise your hand if you're a feminist." A few girls would raise their hands, maybe a few guys who'd been through this before.
Then the teacher would say "OK, now everyone raise your hands. Lower your hand down if you think women should be paid less than men. Now lower your hand if you think women are less intelligent than men. Now lower your hand if you think women shouldn't be able to vote. Now, if your hand is still up, you're a feminist!"
Without fail, some idiot, perhaps several, would make comments like "Yeah, but I heard that feminists crazy alimony laws, so I'm not one" or "I saw a movie once where a bunch of feminists plotted to kill all men, and I don't agree with that" or some similar nonsense. The teacher would say "Actually, all being a feminist means is that you think men and women should be treated equal." Cue a round of "Really? Wow, I guess I really am a feminist!"
This was at a college, in upper-division Sociology classes. I love reading about and discussing social issues but I ended up dropping the major because I couldn't stand the other students.
I'm glad he's more aware of some social issues now, but to me the title of the article may as well be "I saw a girl's pee pee and it looked different than mine."
I mean he wasn't aware that women carry pepper spray, watch who they accept drinks from, etc? I don't get how it's possible not to be aware of these things, they're things you pick up from being a part of our society. It's as if he went to sports bar and thought "Huh, I never noticed before but football seems to be a big deal in this country."
Oh my god, if you're honestly asking this you have no idea. When I transferred to my current college I was doing a double major with Sociology and I took multiple classes where a professor would start a class by asking "Raise your hand if you're a feminist." A few girls would raise their hands, maybe a few guys who'd been through this before.
Then the teacher would say "OK, now everyone raise your hands. Lower your hand down if you think women should be paid less than men. Now lower your hand if you think women are less intelligent than men. Now lower your hand if you think women shouldn't be able to vote. Now, if your hand is still up, you're a feminist!"
Without fail, some idiot, perhaps several, would make comments like "Yeah, but I heard that feminists crazy alimony laws, so I'm not one" or "I saw a movie once where a bunch of feminists plotted to kill all men, and I don't agree with that" or some similar nonsense. The teacher would say "Actually, all being a feminist means is that you think men and women should be treated equal." Cue a round of "Really? Wow, I guess I really am a feminist!"
This was at a college, in upper-division Sociology classes. I love reading about and discussing social issues but I ended up dropping the major because I couldn't stand the other students.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This is basically how I feel about it, but I couldn't articulate it properly.
LQX
Member
Fuck yeah.
The look on his face scares me...
Vermillion
Banned
This is exactly what I was saying we did not need - the spontaneity and overall uselessness of bringing in another group's issues - in this case men - into a discussion that does not necessarily need them. It is not ignoring the fact that they have problems - it's merely keeping the focus on a single set of problems. Saying that men get abused as well doesn't help any sort of discussion about women's issues because it is entirely irrelevant to the matter at hand.
He's serious about that shit.
It's also disingenuous to believe that a significant amount of those problems come because they've pissed off a good amount of people all over the world in tons of different ways. And still are. But that's another subject entirely...
Also when a man is talking to a woman about how rape is affecting women, it sounds really bad when you say "well, guys get raped too!" - yes, but the amount of issues tied to rape on their end is entirely different. Was that guy acting/dressing like a slut? Was that guy pressured into having a baby? It's when people try and casually/conveniently measure up issues next to each other instead of hearing things out entirely... that shit is not a good look. It's pretty disrespectful for those that take those issues seriously.
shadowsdarknes
Member
This. There is nothing wrong with women taking the necessary precaution when going out. I don't understand how that is a feminist issue. To me, it's called being a responsible adult. In fact, I wish I knew more girls who are more open about these issues so I can reassure them that I have their backs. And like Technomancer, I couldn't articulate it correctly.
The problem with rape itself is social; the fact that rape victims are predominantly women is physical. But yeah, you're right in that general gender equality would make women more respected and thus less susceptible to such violent crime...I think you would really have to view a woman as subhuman to perform such a depraved act.
Funny you mention this, why don't they integrate such sports as bowling, darts, or archery? I understand other sports where men have a huge advantage due to physical abilities but sports like I mentioned don't seem to involve a large amount of physical skill and seem to still be segregated.
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
I agree with your point that the citing the negative statistics about the male condition in response to commentary about women is nowhere near a justification or even a coherent rebuttal to the facts. However, I don't think that's why people raise the issues most of the time. I think it has as much to do with them saying "yeah, it's shit, but it's shit for both sides." And it is shit for both sides of the gender debate. I think willingly ignoring that fact isn't appropriate either. There is a certain level of negativity related to the condition either gender finds themselves in, and the response should not be to try to say that no progress needs to be made in one since there are problems to offer as a counter. Your response should be that the problems need to be fixed on BOTH sides, rather than a wholesale dismissal of the problems of the opposite side (I'm not saying you do this, I don't think you do). A lot of women I have had discussions about gender relations with DO have that viewpoint, and that's what I think is a shame. We should be working together to fix all of the problem, not dismissing the other sides problems (even if it's brought up as some sort of silly justification--I'd rather try to use their words to bring them around to the other side).
I imagine most people that commit heinous crimes of any variety ever view their victims as actual people, or they probably wouldn't be committing the crimes.
Roger Danish
Member
I don't think it's so much about finally "learning" about these issues--it's about finally understanding the implications for women and gender interactions. The latter, unfortunately, is not as common as you might think.
BoobPhysics101
Banned
Can't take some feminists seriously, mainly the ones who think men deserve less rights than women. After first-hand witnessing the horrors of family law and all the twisted things that go with it (divorce, restraining orders, deciding custody, etc) I think feminists need to re-evaluate where they're going with their push for equal rights.
Roger Danish
Member
Case in point.
Devolution
Member
After the ban you really thought it wise to come in here and spew some more shit?
I don't think that rape is only due to social factors. You have the whole sexual overprotection bias in men, which is where a woman shows any interest in men they feel that she is interested in them sexually. This bias is readily evident in pedophiles where they say that a child "wanted it". Which is sick but it makes sense because that bias is transferred to those they are attracted to. I agree that we need more gender equality but I don't think that is the silver bullet to solve the problem.
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