eh, the video is just a pluff piece, but I can kinda relate to the guy. I like Christ / Christ's message, but I dislike many "Christians" in America. More specifically, the Culture Warriors in America who only seemed to be concerned with gay marriage and abortion. Everything else, eh, just let the invisible hand of the free market sort it out. :lol
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Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus (Video)
- Thread starter Dunk#7
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My problem with that is that there's no real way to differentiate between what parts of the Bible should be interpreted symbolically and what shouldn't be. The original intention of the author is forever lost, and we can only speculate. It's like people who interpret Genesis symbolically. How do they know the guy/s who originally wrote the thing didn't mean for it to be taken literally?
As for there being nothing wrong with the verse, I disagree. It makes something completely natural into a sin, instilling guilt into sexuality. Couple that with the threat of eternal punishment for not doing what he says, I think it's a pretty poor verse.
edit:
I'm pretty sure he opposes gay marriage and abortion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlJFvxad1_A&list=UUc4yillQaNo6a-iG2PYbbrA&index=9&feature=plcp
Still an improvement over Christians who focus solely on pointless things like making sure everyone says "Merry Christmas" I guess
Well we all have our choices
You can do everything that the Bible teaches and remain perfectly sinless and get into Heaven, but that is humanly impossible.
Jesus Christ gave us a way out. He died in your place as the perfect sacrifice. He made the payment for you and all you have to do is accept his payment.
None of your actions can merit you into Heaven. Jesus paid the sin debt and now the guilty can avoid eternal punishment simply by believing
BruiserBear
Banned
The very concept of the most powerful being there ever was needing help to pass along his message, and interpret it for young people, is utterly hilarious. Thinking about it from a rational viewpoit there can be no other response.
Yes, the universe is massive and mysterious, and dying seems scary, but that is no reason to believe in an invisible friend that no one can prove to you exists.
Yes, the universe is massive and mysterious, and dying seems scary, but that is no reason to believe in an invisible friend that no one can prove to you exists.
That's the problem... no one will ever know, yet people assume they know, and that is where my problem with religion inlies. People fight over words which mean different things to different people and it's utterly pointless. That's why I like this video the thread is about, because it is trying to say to stop bickering and follow Jesus's overall teaching which was to do good and love each other, and I tend to focus on that.
I don't believe hell is an eternal punishment. Im sure the bible says otherwise, but I dont believe everything about the Bible/Christianity. Call that picking and choosing, but I don't believe any one religion is completely and utterly right, and I believe each one has some essence of truth in the greater message. Reading that verse I view it as Jesus saying to get rid of anything that causes you harm. Get rid of anything that prevents you from being the best you that you can be. If you're addicted to pornography, pluck it out of you life. If you're blowing all your money on gambling, pluck it out of your life. If you don't rid the things that do you harm, you will experience hell, which is a lower state of what your whole being can truly achieve.
Because of my personal beliefs I cater the verse to what I believe, and what I feel the author meant. I could be completely dead wrong, and someone could view it completely differently, but that's perfectly okay. We are all different people and have the right to view the world however we see fit.
I love this. Salvation is personal, like the bible says, so many people will cry out of all the things they did in his name but he will say to them, "I do not know you". Christianity in itself is a term coined by us to group people. But, G-d looks us separately. Oh, not to be mistaken with everyone for himself.
This opens a huge can of worms and, imo, devalues life.
I never understood this argument. If someone truly believes that we are all damned to hell, unless you believe something (Jesus as savior, etc), and they want you to believe it too so YOU aren't damned to hell, that is a BAD thing?
To me it would be a horrible thing if someone thinks that only people who believe like they do can go to heaven, and then NOT trying to convince others to do the same, kind of having their own secret little club of the saved.... (I won't get into a Calvinistic argument over predestination, which I must admit, gives me pause).
For Christians, they are commanded to SHARE THE GOOD NEWS, that is what is called the Great Commission. If you are not sharing your beliefs with non-believers, then you really have a hard time calling yourself a Christian. I am not saying force someone at the threat of burning at the stake if you don't declare Jesus your savior is what is called for, but simply stating what you believe in a loving manner and using persuasion. But if somebody doesn't want to hear it, you gotta drop it, but a Christian at least has to try.
You can't be a Christian without being religious. For God sakes, James 1:21-23 talk about religion.
This video is lame.
Oh, btw. If all humans sin, and the only way to get into heaven is 'loving Jesus' or 'taking his gift' or what have you - which is the way it is, because you can never be prefect, you can never not sin, so you need Jesus to take your sin for you - then why do Christians say gays go to hell? They're sinning just like everyone else? Is this a particularly bad sin that even Jesus' gift doesn't cover? Is there some "per-existing condition"-clause to his gift? EDIT: Or are some people just too up in other people's business? Like Louis CK says: (Youtube) I don't get why people judge how people have sex
Always-honest
Banned
Ha, quoted the wrong person..
You are correct that there are people that are wrong out there in the world
All sins are equal and all are guilty. Jesus is the only hope.
Nobody should be pointing fingers here on earth.
The concept went right over your head. Of course if you just look at everything on the surface then you cannot be a Christian without being involved in a religion as that is what Christianity is. However he was speaking about the current state of what religion has become across the globe.
I can respect that. And in hindsight, it was kind of dumb of me to say it's near impossible to know the original intent behind the words and then claim the quite literal interpretation of that verse as the right one... Maybe Jesus did mean it like that, I don't know. Looking at how the Bible is so unclear that it allows for dozens of interpretations just makes me think there's probably no supernatural agent behind it, and I can appreciate the good bits while leaving the bad. Great life lessons can be found in the Bible, Koran, Torah, buddhist writings and My little pony.
You're right to a point... If you honestly believe people will burn forever unless they believe something, of course the right thing to do is to warn people. Sure. What I don't respect is the thinking that all people everywhere DESERVE this punishment because of petty things like looking at someone with lust. Basically if you believe an outstanding muslim who gives to charity, does good deeds, takes care of his family and friends etc, deserves to be punished forever for picking the wrong religion makes me lose some respect for you. Now I'll still talk to you and won't just cuss you out or anything, but I don't understand why I should give equal respect to everyone regardless of what they believe.
Or to put it another way, even if those Westboro Baptist folks sincerely believe in their hearts that picketing those funerals is the right thing to do, it doesn't stop me from having absolutely zero respect for them.
This is really getting off-topic now though...
Mortrialus
Banned
Do you have any idea how disgusting and immoral such a statement is?
I feel bad for those that cannot seem to take the first step to admit they are sinful in nature.
The concept that we are all basically good people is the one that makes me sick
Count Dookkake
Member
Yeah, but what about answering the question?
The answer to his question relies on personal opinion so there is no definite answer that can be given.
Count Dookkake
Member
But your dodge was all opinion and that didn't stop you then.
Mortrialus
Banned
That you literally can't see that actions fall along a gradient of effects including harmful actions shows how deluded you really are. I absolutely can't believe you're equating, for example, consensual sex between two male adults and murder, which is what you're doing by stating all sins are equal.
point taken
Always-honest
Banned
Just Human in nature. A weird mammal.
In God's eyes they are equal if you believe what the Bible has to say.
How that plays out here in Earth is a totally different scenario. Sinful people do not see all sins as being equal and because of that they tend to judge others. The way God views things and the way we view them are very different.
They are equal in God's eyes as they all get equal punishment if not redeemed by the payment made by Jesus Christ
Sutton Dagger
Member
Why are you speaking as if these ideas have any basis in reality? The notions of 'Sin', vicarious redemption and eternal torment have to be some of the most sadistic concepts created by man, I would not accept them even if God existed.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
You really don't know what Christianity is...
I think he got it pretty alright, perhaps not our specific definitions of religion and what we view it as, but ffs it's a poem, it's generally sound.
I kinda rolled my eyes at the jesus and sins part, that's nice and all, but whatever, has no real basis. This is still a good step away from 'rules' and just plain 'being good' instead.
edit: Soory about that. To answer without being so snobbish and condescending, that's kinda the gist of Christianity.
OT=rules, rules, rules, illustrating that we could never keep all said rules by trying to be "good".
NT (or Jesus era)= No more rules 'cept two. Love one another and believe that Jesus died for your sins.
Why is this a one way street?
You and those that you agree with can make statements that I believe to be false, but I do not call you out for making your statements as if they were facts.
I make my statements from the perspective that they are the truth because I believe them to be just that. You do the same with every statement you make, but I do not call you out for it.
Mortrialus
Banned
So you are not contesting that you think homosexual sex is morally equal to murder? Can I get you to post "Homosexual sex is equal to murder in mine (and God's) opinion" please?
If god is just as incapable of realizing that all actions have a gradient of effects, he is equally deluded.
And according to you, the way god sees things is less aligned with reality than humans.
Then you are a cynic and a misanthrope. Ironic, given that's what atheists are often accused of being.
Dunk simply does not care about reality. Forget consequentialist morality, forget cause and effect, forget critical inquiry, and forget science. GodJesus is more important.
God deals with all sins equally with the same punishment.
The Bible does not have us to act in the same manner because final judgment is reserved for God. We have various levels of punishment for various crimes as that lines up with Biblical teaching.
beelzebozo
Jealous Bastard
the question of inherent nature is something that has been studied by cognitive psychology for years and years and years, and very little that is absolutely conclusive has been established. a few things, however, we can be sure of:
[1] people are very subject to the influences of their surroundings.
[2] the difference between a very good person and a very bad person is much thinner than we imagine.
[3] knowing that we are very subject to the influences of our environment, it becomes more evident that early cognitive development periods have long-lasting effects on a person, calling into question any concept of pure bad
[4] this is perhaps the most important one: the conflict between man's biological drives--which are far older--with man's rational side. what a human being desires emotionally or the immediate visceral experience of being a human being is far different than the rational side of humanity. this is what i feel people are trying to explain when they discuss how good people can have bad thoughts or do bad things: they're trying to figure out why they can like their friend so much, but can still at times wish their friend ill. these desires are not inherently evil, and are often related to something much simpler, like the recognition of possible options (even those that are unsavory to the self), or to an animal desire to hoard resources. it is important for people to understand this split, and to mediate it.
[5] there is a distinct split between consciousness and mind, which causes similar conflicts. "personality" and the way we develop learned behavior is in many ways totally arbitrary. being able to separate your consciousness in you from what may be behavior that is not useful is one of the most important abilities of a human being. it's the ability to transcend yourself--to step outside yourself, look back at yourself when you're considering doing something you DON'T want, and to recognize it as such.
that's all to say i think the model you're applying to life completely flattens it into this handing yourself over to "sin"--those behaviors that produce undesirable human relationships--while explaining none of the reasons why you have those feelings. it backs a person into a corner and says, "you feel these things! and feeling those things makes you bad." but really, those feelings don't make you bad at all. it's the actualizing of those feelings that makes them bad: taking irrational jealousy (which everyone feels) and turning it into petty contempt and slander; taking personal insecurity (which everyone feels) and turning it into an affair.
doing bad things is bad, yes. it's bad because it produces bad results. that's the problem with the creation of a priori reasons not to do bad things: it doesn't tell you anything about the impact on your own human relationships. forming an actual understanding of inevitable effects on your interpersonal relations from an action makes the action more or less desirable. that's what ethics and morals are. ethics and morals stand in for pragmatic results of shitty actions.
so why should you not have an affair?
(a) sin. do not have an affair because it is a sin and because god wants you to love your wife.
(b) because having an affair creates unavoidable consequences in your relationship with your wife--even if she never learns of the affair--which make your life worse and turn you into a less happy person.
understanding B and understanding that your desire to have an affair comes from your awful, petty insecurity and not from some innate human desire to have affairs makes you far less likely to do things that will completely fuck up your life.
sorry for the long post, but i obviously have a lot of thoughts on the subject. i also apologize if i rambled here and there, but it's a big topic that is hard to grasp the scope of.
So your god thinks that not honoring the Sabbath day is morally equivalent to genocide? And so do you? That's kinda fucked up, bro. Oh, let me guess "IT'S ONLY FUCKED UP BY THE SINFUL ILLUSORY STANDARDS OF THIS FALLEN WORLD!" The fact of that matter is that you need to intentionally blind yourself to the nature of how life on planet Earth actually works to believe something like that. That involves devoting a tremendous amount of effort for the express purpose of denying reality, which is something I cannot abide. Sure, in your case it just makes you act like high and mighty on the internet, but that mindset is what allows normal people to do horrible, horrible things. I'd go so far as to say that sincerely holding such a view of morality borders on mental illness.
Mortrialus
Banned
I asked you to clarify an opinion with a full statement of said opinion. Could you do that for me?
Sutton Dagger
Member
None of my statements preclude that these concepts couldn't come from God or that God doesn't exist. I'm saying I wouldn't accept them even if they were 'real'. I don't accept God's ideas on sin, I do not accept Jesus' death as payment for sins that I never accepted in the first place, and I don't accept Gods ownership of me.
What are you talking about? I have never once excluded myself from the scenario. I am a terrible person as well. Guilty of all kinds of sins. I am not acting "high and mighty" in the least.
PS: Jesus worked on the Sabbath which is technically Saturday contrary to popular belief. Jesus freed us from the Law and we are now driven to an understanding of right and wrong by the Holy Spirit. Christianity is not about a list of rules and regulations you have to follow.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
I suppose this is an example of the classic young lady/old lady drawing where our experiences and preconceived notions affect our interpretation of the world.
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
My main issue with Jesus, is that I'm not convinced such a man even existed.
It follows then, even if he did exist, that it's less likely (lol) he was some supernatural demigod.
And then, even if one believed such a man, who was more than a man, did exist... his message isn't exactly supernatural revelation that couldn't be figured out by a regular human person. And also... the Jesus of the bible says some pretty awful shit sometimes. Nestled in there among the "love thy brother" are some more unfortunate bits.
End of the day... you don't have to evoke supernatural explanation for the golden rule. It's not necessary. And it's illogical. Sorry. But the otherworldliness of it all is just plain illogical.
It follows then, even if he did exist, that it's less likely (lol) he was some supernatural demigod.
And then, even if one believed such a man, who was more than a man, did exist... his message isn't exactly supernatural revelation that couldn't be figured out by a regular human person. And also... the Jesus of the bible says some pretty awful shit sometimes. Nestled in there among the "love thy brother" are some more unfortunate bits.
End of the day... you don't have to evoke supernatural explanation for the golden rule. It's not necessary. And it's illogical. Sorry. But the otherworldliness of it all is just plain illogical.
I already clarified with my response. I know that they are equal in the punishment they will draw from God, but the punishment for each here on Earth is different
Way to only respond to the most tangential part of my post. What I'm trying to say is that completely decoupling your view of right and wrong from the actual effects of a person's actions is madness. It may not lead you to do anything drastic to other people, but the very idea is sickening in the sense that it could lead a sincere believer to do horrible things to their fellow human beings in the name of their beliefs.
My cousin preached to me this same message months ago.
Give a motley assembly of believers their own property and infrastructure, watch it grow, and see how long it takes for corruption or for activities that conflict with their initial beliefs to settle in.
I had a hunch that Christianity is an instance of cultural appropriation gone heavily wrong.
The method of Christian proselytism has always irked me.
"Jesus died for your sins", "Salvation is through him alone", etc.
These sayings don't make very sense without a frame of reference to ancient Jewish traditions upon which Christian beliefs hinge (e.g. the nature of sin and the meaning of salvation). Another question can be addressed, why is everyone subject to ancient Jewish laws in the first place (heck, one can possibly argue that the Gospel wasn't meant for non-Jewish folks to begin with, why should others be subject to its standards)?
Tossing Bible verses also does not make sense to me.
This question comes to mind, "What value is the Bible to those who flat out reject it or have no knowledge of it when it comes to attempts of persuasion?"
Often people who come by bringing out Bible verses are folks whose belief systems criticize the means by which the Christian Bible came about in the first place (if one accepts that the Bible's canon was set to some extent by 4th century bishops, a period which I assume a lot of non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians uphold as a time of apostasy). So what authority then does the Bible canon have at all? The man in the video says he loves the Bible, but it was most likely developed within a regulated infrastructure by men whose concerns were doctrine and orthodoxy (possibly in a "big palace" too).
I can see the point in this video, but it feels like non-denominational propaganda. If one searches for a relationship with Christ, what is the sincerity of such a relationship if religion is thrown out? It sounds like a blind relationship if it's mostly just a self-help sort of thing, blind in the sense that it ignores the development of today's Christian beliefs, how the Bible came about, and the impact of Christ (and his believers: good and bad) on human society for the past 2000 years. IMO, a deep relationship with Christ has to come to terms with the entirety of the Christian religion, especially its faults.
Give a motley assembly of believers their own property and infrastructure, watch it grow, and see how long it takes for corruption or for activities that conflict with their initial beliefs to settle in.
I had a hunch that Christianity is an instance of cultural appropriation gone heavily wrong.
The method of Christian proselytism has always irked me.
"Jesus died for your sins", "Salvation is through him alone", etc.
These sayings don't make very sense without a frame of reference to ancient Jewish traditions upon which Christian beliefs hinge (e.g. the nature of sin and the meaning of salvation). Another question can be addressed, why is everyone subject to ancient Jewish laws in the first place (heck, one can possibly argue that the Gospel wasn't meant for non-Jewish folks to begin with, why should others be subject to its standards)?
Tossing Bible verses also does not make sense to me.
This question comes to mind, "What value is the Bible to those who flat out reject it or have no knowledge of it when it comes to attempts of persuasion?"
Often people who come by bringing out Bible verses are folks whose belief systems criticize the means by which the Christian Bible came about in the first place (if one accepts that the Bible's canon was set to some extent by 4th century bishops, a period which I assume a lot of non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians uphold as a time of apostasy). So what authority then does the Bible canon have at all? The man in the video says he loves the Bible, but it was most likely developed within a regulated infrastructure by men whose concerns were doctrine and orthodoxy (possibly in a "big palace" too).
I can see the point in this video, but it feels like non-denominational propaganda. If one searches for a relationship with Christ, what is the sincerity of such a relationship if religion is thrown out? It sounds like a blind relationship if it's mostly just a self-help sort of thing, blind in the sense that it ignores the development of today's Christian beliefs, how the Bible came about, and the impact of Christ (and his believers: good and bad) on human society for the past 2000 years. IMO, a deep relationship with Christ has to come to terms with the entirety of the Christian religion, especially its faults.
You are incorrect there anyway.
The Bible state Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. He was not a demigod. He is God
Part of the trinity
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
Edit: Actually I shouldn't make fun... I'm quite familiar with the trinity concept.
i think it's illogical
Why would I ever harm another person? We are all guilty and in need of saving grace.
The only reason for being on this Earth is to spread the good news that Jesus came to give us a way out of that guilty verdict.
I do not understand how any of that could lead to anybody to do something horrible to a fellow human being
astroturfing
Member
hmm, that's not what the Jews tell me. and they have a bit more experience with the so called "Old" Testament (actual name Tanakh or something?) than Christians do... so ummm, why should i take your word as a Christian over theirs exactly?
the video in OP.. oh man, i can't watch that sort of stuff, makes me cringe. that whole semi-douchey "i love Jesus but hate religions" crap is SO played out, i remember this sneaky tactic from when i was a kid in the 90s. there were all sorts of Christian youth groups that did this (like a Christian snowboarding "posse"), they tried to lure kids in telling them that hey believing in Jesus is nothing like religion, it's COOL! and the next phase was to hand them Bibles and get them to attend a protestant church...
it's very obvious to pretty much anyone this is just a clever survival tactic of a religion desperately trying to get more young people in their ranks. sad really. i have much more respect for people who are not ashamed of their religion, and are not trying to hide it...
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