Fox Mulder
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Why is American exceptionalism still a thing?
- Thread starter Fou-Lu
- Start date
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Pretty good athletes right? But they could never be good at soccer no matter what, just because.
I don't think the leap in logic is very big. But I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind at this point. I'll leave it be.
We were already great despite the rhetoric. And that holds true today.
boredofcanada
Member
I agree.
jm89
Gold Member
Did anybody say the US can't be good at soccer? Can you accept that your precious country can't dominate everything just because you choose to?
Does your health insurance cover exceptionalism? No? Ok i understand.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
A lot of people jealous of America and it's hegemony here.
gutter_trash
Banned
That is not true, many Asian cultures value wealth, materialism, academic success over the well being of their neighbors
Pattycakes
Banned
Because America is still greatest country on the planet, and in spite of all the Trump shit, I'm still proud to be an American
Great. Next Olympics get your track and field team to swap disciplines with your swimming team. They'll all do really shit and then maybe you'll understand what people have been telling you.
It's a very large country with the third largest population in the world and lots of economic wealth, of course it will claim that it's the best in anything. But that's mostly because talent can easily be recognized and rise to the top as compared to a country like China or India. If you made that Olympic medal list per capita, the US wouldn't be at the top anymore.
But it does suffer a lot on social issues on a demographic level compared to countries that have a similar GDP/capita and why its inhabitant will claim they're the best at everything, I don't know. Nobody will ever be the best at everything. Like that thread a few days ago where some politician claimed the US had the best healthcare system in the world, that's just making some shit up.
I also think that because the country is so geographically large, not many inhabitants (compared to some other countries) visit other countries as easily. Thus they come in less contact with other cultures and how it's done there. This may create a false feel that whatever you're doing, you're doing it in the best way. Nowadays with the internet that reasoning has faded a bit though.
But it does suffer a lot on social issues on a demographic level compared to countries that have a similar GDP/capita and why its inhabitant will claim they're the best at everything, I don't know. Nobody will ever be the best at everything. Like that thread a few days ago where some politician claimed the US had the best healthcare system in the world, that's just making some shit up.
I also think that because the country is so geographically large, not many inhabitants (compared to some other countries) visit other countries as easily. Thus they come in less contact with other cultures and how it's done there. This may create a false feel that whatever you're doing, you're doing it in the best way. Nowadays with the internet that reasoning has faded a bit though.
Your country would be a lot better off if it didn't start from the assumption that it's the best at everything. You might be able to fix your electoral system for starters.
American exceptionalism has always been "a thing," though it has been defined differently by different groups of people over the years, depending on how they want to tell the story of the country. There have been times during which even other countries viewed the US as exceptional, as having symbolic value over and above most other countriesread about the reactions in Europe to the Civil War, for instance, particularly in the light of the failed revolutions in 1848.
I think that in order to answer the question, "Why is American exceptionalism still a thing?", you'd need to ask why Americans viewed themselves or their country as exceptional in the first place and how that story has changed over time in order to understand why that national self-conception is still enduring for many Americans, and even extended to areas where, as has been pointed out, it simply isn't true. But while it certainly contributes to American delusions about our preeminence in any number of fields where we don't actually lead, it also hasn't really historically been about those things (or even those things we do lead in).
As an American, I've always had a kind of ambivalent relationship with the idea of patriotism or nationalism, let alone "American exceptionalism." I know that I wouldn'tcouldn'tbe who I am and not be an American. It's just not possible. But it's also not something that I chose, so why should I feel any personal pride in that fact? Over the years, I have come to a place that was articulated really well, I thought, in an essay that was brought to my attention by a short piece in Vox about it:
But I don't think that, at least for most Americans, the notion of "American exceptionalism" contributes to that kind of nuanced sense of patriotism. But I do think it's possible to have a positive kind of patriotic exceptionalism. I read an article in The Atlantic about Germany and populism in light of Germany's own national story:
I think that in order to answer the question, "Why is American exceptionalism still a thing?", you'd need to ask why Americans viewed themselves or their country as exceptional in the first place and how that story has changed over time in order to understand why that national self-conception is still enduring for many Americans, and even extended to areas where, as has been pointed out, it simply isn't true. But while it certainly contributes to American delusions about our preeminence in any number of fields where we don't actually lead, it also hasn't really historically been about those things (or even those things we do lead in).
As an American, I've always had a kind of ambivalent relationship with the idea of patriotism or nationalism, let alone "American exceptionalism." I know that I wouldn'tcouldn'tbe who I am and not be an American. It's just not possible. But it's also not something that I chose, so why should I feel any personal pride in that fact? Over the years, I have come to a place that was articulated really well, I thought, in an essay that was brought to my attention by a short piece in Vox about it:
But I don't think that, at least for most Americans, the notion of "American exceptionalism" contributes to that kind of nuanced sense of patriotism. But I do think it's possible to have a positive kind of patriotic exceptionalism. I read an article in The Atlantic about Germany and populism in light of Germany's own national story:
Chairmanchuck
Member
To add to the fact talking about the atrocities our ancestors commited, you talk about it in history a lot.
My history lessons from grade 5-13 were: French Revolution, Roman Empire, WW2, WW2, WW1, WW2, WW2.
Nothing about any battles, but about the whole situation, how Hitler came to be etc.
It is really drilled into your head and you wont forget about it, when visiting concentration camps and see the horrible videos and photos.
In other words: The USA is like Al Bundy, a womens shoe salesman who still brags about his 3 touchdowns in 1 game back in his youth.
YesThatGuy
Banned
Propaganda.
How else would you con a poorly prepared and in some cases outright ignorant young into joining whats is basically the biggest private armed corp in the world?
How else would you con a poorly prepared and in some cases outright ignorant young into joining whats is basically the biggest private armed corp in the world?
Grenouille
Member
Pretty good athletes right? But they could never be good at soccer no matter what, just because.
I don't think the leap in logic is very big. But I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind at this point. I'll leave it be.
No, comparing it to the Olympics does not make sense. Soviet Union never won a World Cup. Brazil and Argentina are not on that Olympic list.
The answer "we would dominate in soccer if we wanted to" sounds so condescending lol. It's a way of coming on top in soccer through the use of an argument, you could say. America is the best even when they can't win. It diminishes other countries' efforts, too.
"If India/China was more organized and cared about soccer they would sure be the best at it, they just have so many people there"
What's the point?
Because we dominate the sports we do make an effort in.
Remember this entire fucking conversation was started by someone taking offense to someone saying that the US is the best at producing athletes by bringing up soccer(which we still do well in).
Athletes are athletes, technique can be learned, athletic ability cannot.
Pankratous
Member
No idea. It's absolutely baffling.
Probably because they have the largest military dick?
America is without a doubt one of the worst countries in the world, in my view.
Probably because they have the largest military dick?
America is without a doubt one of the worst countries in the world, in my view.
Skellig Gra
Member
You have a very limited view
One of the worst? Haha
Pankratous
Member
Sure, but white people have the most money, invented the most stuff in the modern age and lead the production for a lot of stuff, have the most political power and exported their culture all over the world;
should they all shout "White people are the best" since you can't deny the importance of white people in the world? That would be idiotic but the arguments would be similar.
Of course I'd wager there is a huge overlap in the US between people who say "America is the greatest" and people who say "White people are the best" (after all, nationalists and white supremacists lurk around the same corner in the right).
Skellig Gra
Member
It's just a counterpoint to all the people saying if America is so great why aren't they great at soccer/football. As if that is a measure of anything. Brazil has won loads of soccer/football tournaments and have massive issues with their country.
lightskintwin
Banned
Plus they should be glad we created our own football, otherwise we'd be whooping the world's ass. LOL
Let me see.
USA:
Population = about 325,000,000
Total number of medals = 2,549
So about 1 medal for each 127,500 American.
Germany:
Population = about 80,000,000
Total number of medals = 1,099
About 1 medal for each 72,793 German
UK:
Population = about 65,000,000
Total number of medals = 737
About 1 medal for each 88,195 Briton
France:
Population = about 65,000,000
Total number of medals = 731
About 1 medal for each 88,919 French
Italy:
Population = about 60,000,000
Total number of medals = 628
About 1 medal for each 95,541 Italian
In terms of population to medal ratio, the US are actually trailing behind.
(edit: Russia is probably the actual world number one by a wide margin, but I'm not sure how to count Russian medals here).
You really underestimate the popularity of soccer in most countries, the number of athletes it attracts, the maturity of coaching techniques, the overall stakes for national teams. And you also underestimate those countries' ability to breed great athletes.
I'm sure the US would be a solid top 10 team, there's no doubting that. They'd probably even win a few World Cups. But the competition would be far fiercer than you imagine.
It's not though? (this lists east Germany and Germany separately, but if you add them together they're still not at the top).
Mmhm. Whereas in the U.S. the story about slavery, the meaning of the Civil War and of Reconstruction, and the process reconciliation between North and South took place mostly on terms congenial to Confederate and white supremacist interests. It's a national story that is a kind of amnesia rather than a remembrance. And as that article implied, our continued failure as a nation to make the project of expiating those sins a consensus project rather than a sectional or partisan one is at the heart of our struggles with revanchist right-wing populism.
As I said, it was a thing long before the US even had a standing army to speak of. If anything, the ideology leads to and contributes to public support for maintaining military hegemony.
Well, thanks; this just further proves my point. The USA aren't particularly great at all when it comes to medal per capita ratio. The hegemony is just a combination of decently efficient coaching methods with sheer population numbers.
American civilization just rode on the coat tails of the British Empire, this is why their economy and science is so big. Also they are a product of geography, the land is able to support a large population amplifying those strengths. If they were not an ex British colony nor granted such such good land they would be nothing.
The slogan "Make America Great Again" is the most currently relevant counterpart to that truth.
Skellig Gra
Member
Our country was built on the backs of slaves. So if the Brits want to take credit for that then go right ahead.
And yet America rebuilt your country after it was decimated by World War 2. It took the time and effort required to reform Germany and Japan into valued allies. And it kept, and continues to keep, the wolves from your door.
When you need foreign aid, or charitable disaster relief, America will come through for you.
You are welcome.
VivaciousSoul
Member
What percentage of Americans do people think think that the United States is the greatest country no matter what? What percentage do people assume that other countries are at? What is an acceptable percentage?
It's pretty easy to figure out. Influence is power, and power easily translates to "greatness". If you can argue there has been a more influential country than the United States of America in the last 100 years, I'd love to hear about it.
Granted, influence is not always positive. It's like the Time Magazine Person of the Year. It's not always a good person. Through invention (a huge amount of which are byproducts of NASA and the space race), popular culture, armed conflict, and international espionage, I defy you to name a more influential country over the last century.
That said, belief by the common American in that greatness being a foregone conclusion will eventually lead to the downfall of the United States, just like pretty much every "great" nation of history. Greatness must be maintained and you don't maintain influence by thinking regressively like teaching fairy tales in school (theology), denying science rather than adapting (climate change), letting quasi-religious dogma stifle research (stem cells), or letting your schools and infrastructure age and corrode for decades while the rest of the world modernizes. That greatness is eroding and while the U.S. still wields great influence, we're kind of a one-trick pony these days (i.e. war is the answer to everything).
Granted, influence is not always positive. It's like the Time Magazine Person of the Year. It's not always a good person. Through invention (a huge amount of which are byproducts of NASA and the space race), popular culture, armed conflict, and international espionage, I defy you to name a more influential country over the last century.
That said, belief by the common American in that greatness being a foregone conclusion will eventually lead to the downfall of the United States, just like pretty much every "great" nation of history. Greatness must be maintained and you don't maintain influence by thinking regressively like teaching fairy tales in school (theology), denying science rather than adapting (climate change), letting quasi-religious dogma stifle research (stem cells), or letting your schools and infrastructure age and corrode for decades while the rest of the world modernizes. That greatness is eroding and while the U.S. still wields great influence, we're kind of a one-trick pony these days (i.e. war is the answer to everything).
Did you personally take part in any of that?
Don't take credit for the work of others.
There's an entire book arguing this point.
Though the science is also big because of good decisions in the mid-century. I don't know if you are familiar with Pharyngula; if you don't, it's a long-running blog by a biology professor / atheist in Minnesota. Near the beginning of the year, he wrote a bit about this period:
The remainder of the piece is about how we're willingly pissing away generations-worth of institution-building because of anti-intellectual delusions, so it's definitely the place to be for wallowing in misery / engaging in anti-American schadenfreude as the spirit moves you! I also came across a book recently that talks about the synergy between government-funded research and consumer products by American MNCs. For instance, the iPhone:
Anyway, I think that the US' economic and scientific positions are products of both fortuitous circumstances and, at least when it mattered at the time, good decisions.
My tax monies are sent to foreign countries regularly. And I have contributed to disaster relief in both the Caribbean and Africa.
Ha, and here lies the issue with Gaf- saying dumb shit.
The U.S. government maintains a website where you can see what money goes where and for what purposes. It's pretty cool.
We should send a hell of a lot more, because we can (we have the money) and it would be mutually beneficial.
Tax money being sent to other countries is pretty common for most developed countries. But RE:bolded, good on you for putting for money where your mouth is!
We're discussing American exceptionalism. It's ridiculous I'd need to cite only examples I've personally contributed to.
Angelus Errare
Banned
South Korea, Japan?
I have often wondered without black people credits in Olympics, how would the US perform. Must be nice selling them a lie about equality while using them to thump your chest on being the " best ever ".
But then again, I see Olympics as a poor point to whether America will get good in football pov when football gets you one gold medal and swimming gets you like 30x more.
But then again, I see Olympics as a poor point to whether America will get good in football pov when football gets you one gold medal and swimming gets you like 30x more.
Skellig Gra
Member
Being an athlete is one of the only paths to prosperity for a black person born in a low income family so it's not really selling them a lie. Using the Olympics as a measure of anything is dumb.