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Why Is Bernie Sanders Against Reparations?
- Thread starter jmood88
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Are you saying over one trillion is just a drop compared to 5 billion?
Mushroomer25
Member
He sets himself up for that standard. His healthcare & tax promises are wildly idealistic, painting a picture of a Utopian America that he'd be capable of making real. So you can't really blame people when they ask for that utopian dream to extend beyond the interests of young white Millennials.
Yup, plus openly courting Trump's racist supporters. We have no idea why black people won't run to him with open arms, though.
stufte
Member
None of his proposed ideas are of interest to minorities? Really?
Questions like this bring up issues. How about for the sake of it, we deliberate on a plan that would actually work?
You wouldn't use population numbers for total number of black people, how about households? Work out a cap limit on what is simply too much money (more than a person could realistically spend on themselves etc.) --
One major issue is how many people could just simply go out of work. Not to mention travel outside of the US to stretch their money and thus removing it from US economy.
Also you'd have to work with %s. Not every black person was a slave for the whole period and you can't factor in average pay.
But here is the problem. Justice for slavery would call for unlimited reparations due to the treatment, so numbers wouldn't even matter.
After running all of these numbers anyway you could probably justify (poor word choice) about $200k paid to households per black person. Taking away foodstamps and other benefits it would probably add up to the government evening out on costs.
THEN work out a system whereby the households are paid out through a system which gives them bi-monthly payments so the economy won't jump around too much in one go and they have to stay in the US to continue to collect. Set up an agency to make sure the system isn't cheated and ta-da, reparations...
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My numbers could be ALL wrong but if the above happened and worked, it would still be debateable if it is better than investing in schools etc.
I mean I'm not against an apology here but I also don't think it's of particular value to anyone. I think correcting income disparity via things like healthcare and education on a more global level does help ease the worst hit by things like institutional racism while simultaneously taking the most from those that exploit it. At the same time it puts blacks and the white middle class (whatever that is anymore) on the same side, only the very rich don't benefit because they can afford alternatives. So it's hard to stigmatize other groups for taking advantage of social programs that you also take advantage of and you're less likely to sabotage it. That second part is important, you need sustainability, something people aren't going to roll back when racism is "fixed".
Battersea Power Station
Member
This is pretty expected out of the Sanders campaign by now. Rumor has it the potential running mates they're talking to are all white as well. Talk about a step backwards.
Crimson_Gold
Member
This is where the white liberal and minority divide tends to exist. We want many of the same things, but once it becomes an issue that only impacts minorities, the "allies" become few and far between.
The problems in the African American community go beyond economic. They are social as well. You have to address these, and unfortunately the solutions might not benefit all Americans equally.
Sanders is great but economic justice does not necessarily coincide with social justice.
BossDarkseid
Member
Sanders isn't utopian. He supports thing that the public supports, but that might not be politically possible. There's a difference. He doesn't support things that are both politically difficult and enjoy little to no public support.
This is not that hard to think about. There's plenty of fringe leftists out there who might want outright support of Palestine, but currently there's no popular candidate who will back that.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
"simple" is right
gamechanger87
Member
Starting from the top and before you reduce the number of households the total african american households in 2014 was 17.2M. Paying $200K to each would be $3.5T. There is no way the government can ever somehow make that back up. Also, there would never be a reduction in other benefits to make up for it.
Aztechnology
Member
Single issue voters/groups tend to do this.
King Tubby
Member
He's speaking truth to a specific kind of power, which isn't white supremacy. No other candidate is even coming close to that anyway. Blame the field. Moreover, blame the electorate.
He didn't set himself up for that standard. He has specifically and repeatedly set himself up as an opponent of plutocracy, not as someone who is going to end social injustice forever. The notion that his policies are only of interest to young white folks is laughable.
Mushroomer25
Member
They happen to benefit the minority population, but very little of his platform is working to specifically fix the issues that burden them. I'm not necessarily saying reparations are that solution, but his hesitance to acknowledge them shows his strategy. He's playing to a specific base, and isn't going to back a plan that does not benefit said base.
SolicitorPirate
Member
It won't be enough though. Black people (and most racial minorities, really) do not have the same employment opportunities that white people do. Similarly, when they do find employment, they tend to be underpaid compared to their white counterparts
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I'd imagine "get over it" is easier to say from the white side of this argument.
And it's not 2015.
soul creator
Member
I think the disconnect with the "well, any of Sanders proposal wouldn't get past Congress" argument is that Sanders probably thinks there's enough grassroots support for things like single-payer and taxpayer-funded college education that a more liberal Congress (the kind that has a better chance of being elected in the unlikely world where there's a President Sanders) would support those policies, but even a 100% liberal Congress would still not support "reparations" (at the bare minimum they wouldn't support framing it that way). Even people in this thread are like "I'm liberal, but I dunno about reparations..."
Sanders' fundamental argument is that most Americans actually do support things like single payer health insurance, they're just not part of the political discussion due to depressed voter turnout and lobbyist influence, not because they're too far out of the mainstream of American thinking. That doesn't necessarily mean he thinks every leftist position is therefore just as likely to be supported. "Reparations" (at least, something framed that way) is probably still considered far out of the mainstream, even with a hypothetical 100% voter turnout and a liberal Congress. Which is a larger problem with the US and its citzens in general, and not really something a Sanders is gonna challenge (at least, probably not forcefully and directly)
That's why it's probably more accurate to say Sanders is only a "radical leftist" within the context of current American political discussion, but not within the scope of all political discussion.
Sanders' fundamental argument is that most Americans actually do support things like single payer health insurance, they're just not part of the political discussion due to depressed voter turnout and lobbyist influence, not because they're too far out of the mainstream of American thinking. That doesn't necessarily mean he thinks every leftist position is therefore just as likely to be supported. "Reparations" (at least, something framed that way) is probably still considered far out of the mainstream, even with a hypothetical 100% voter turnout and a liberal Congress. Which is a larger problem with the US and its citzens in general, and not really something a Sanders is gonna challenge (at least, probably not forcefully and directly)
That's why it's probably more accurate to say Sanders is only a "radical leftist" within the context of current American political discussion, but not within the scope of all political discussion.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Actually this just occurred to me: all this talk about Sanders and reparations, does anyone know if Hilary has made a case for reparations? Has she done anything in her history for reparations?
I just feel it kind of weird to single Bernie out on this stance when you can probably criticize most politicians on both sides about avoiding the issue at all costs.
I just feel it kind of weird to single Bernie out on this stance when you can probably criticize most politicians on both sides about avoiding the issue at all costs.
Why do people that post bullshit like this always have anime avatars?
Making sure everyone has the opportunity for higher education and guaranteed spending is a tremendous first step. Money is often the first step towards power in this country.
So I'm not the only one that notices this?
$3.5T is possible. Especially if it is paid bi-monthly and doesn't increase with interest, then it's actually a lot lower. Not only that, remember that anyone receiving would be getting other benefits unless the income is over a certain limit.
By the time the money is all paid, a lot of it will circle the economy and you can simply assume a lot of it comes back with tax.
EDIT:
Fuck the slight satire in my post isn't obvious. Oh well.
excelsiorlef
Member
The effects of slavery is still felt in the US today. What the fuck.
Technically video game but I hear you.
First of all, I can't say enough how tiring it is for every thread that's critical of Bernie turning into, "b-but, Hillary!". Secondly, criticism of Bernie doesn't signal support for Hillary. Personally, I hate Hillary and I haven't forgotten the racist bullshit her and her campaign started pulling as soon as it became apparent that Obama was a legitimate threat. Bernie is being "singled out" because he was asked this question at a forum and chose to answer it this way.
Who gives a shit about Hilary in this case?
She's supposed to be the dirty plutocrat politician.
The problem with this issue with Sanders is that it fits the narrative that he doesn't give a shit about minorities, it's a powerful image that he had to defeat if he ever want to get a chance at getting into the general.
I don't follow the boring Democratic primary to care if it's true or not, some of his supporters certainly make it look like the image is earned rather than unfair.
King Tubby
Member
I support reparations as a concept, but my issue with it currently is that it's like paying a cash settlement to someone you're still in the process of running over with your car.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
Soooooo.... Can Black's get reparations for the disgusting things the government has done to us?
Bahahahahahahaahahahahahahahhahahahaha.
We'll be going to one of Jupiter's moon daily before that ever happens.
Money doesn't necessarily buy you distance from race hatred, as a black American. I mean fuck, man, just look at how billionaire Donald Sterling was racist against Magic Johnson, who is worth about half a billion dollars, just two years ago. $500m and still no, I don't want you in my social circle?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
So you'd rather just have them run over and die and get nothing?
Personally I feel reparations are a pipe dream because the country's too far gone to ever actually deal with institutionalized racism, but the opposition based on the fact that it wouldn't be a perfect, permanent solution also seems strange to me. I think the assumption is that no one would put the money to work wisely, which feels like another layer of institutionalized racism frankly.
King Tubby
Member
No election occurs in a vacuum. It's not a referendum on Bernie Sanders. The consideration is (or should be) will Bernie Sanders do more to benefit minorities than Hillary Clinton, or any other candidate? With his position on the war on drugs alone the answer seems to be a resounding yes.
...no, my point was I think you need to stop the car first. Or at least mitigate the damage that would undo a lot of the positive effect of reparations in the first place. Which I know is very close to saying that reparations should never occur until racism is fixed forever, which is of course laughable. I just feel that addressing certain systemic issues, chiefly policing/incarceration need to come first.
2 Slice Toaster
Member
Hillary is the de facto Democratic candidate at this point. She is the safe, dependable name to ensure that the Presidency does not end up under any one of the Republican candidates, all of which represent a significant threat to roll back not only progressive gains from the past eight years, but beyond.
His candidacy represents a direct threat to this stability, so it is up to him to prove why he deserves to be in the conversation, and justify upending what should be a safe transference of the office. He is a risk to everyone. Even if Hillary doesn't recognize the need to radically alter the social policies of this country to make any real progress anymore than Bernie does, she is still at the end of the day the "safe option".
That1BlackGuy
Member
I don't think its necessarily about being enough, but rather a start. Universal income could alleviate a hell of a lot of problems for the poor.
I will say that higher education means jack all when access to higher paying jobs and wealth building opportunities are driven by nepotism and institutionalized racism.
Good post, but the reality is that a lot of these threads are less about discussion and more about a garbage fight between Sanders and Clinton supporters.
On the other hand even though Don was a racist he still had to hire black people.
beato_angelico
Member
since when "white middle class" has been used only as in insult?
So... are you talking communism or are you aware of why universal income would be worse than benefits?
At least he has money. Besides who would most people like to hang with, Sterling or Magic Johnson? There was once a time where the answer would have been obviously Sterling. Again, its an important step. Cultural attitudes will only change with time. Not much we can do to legislate people like Sterling not to be douchebags.
Better economic opportunity, a chance at an education free of charge, this will help create more successful individuals, which begets more successful individuals. Poverty is a trap. Providing a better exit from this trap is a great first step. One of the major arguments for a basic income is that it will allow people to become more entrepreneurial, as people can use their money, or families can pool their money to create businesses. The more money a class of people make, the more clout they begin to have, especially politically.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I think we both know that the car isn't going to stop. There's literally no motivation for those perpetuating systemic issues to stop, especially when the general public is largely apathetic or even supportive of those issues continuing.
LegendofLex
Member
Sure, but if being the "safer candidate" can be lauded as a virtue, then singling out one candidate for criticism for expressing a clearly "safe" position seems a bit intellectually dishonest, doesn't it?
JesseEwiak
Member
In other words, "sorry non-white people, but on the off chance we actually pass good policies, you might catch up with us in 10 generations or so. Good luck! By the way, I'm going to move into the house my parents were able to get with a low interest loan in a previously segregated community after World War II."
Thelonelykoopa
Member
I'm going to be honest for all the shit African America had(and still are) to put up they each honestly deserve 1 million dollars each but that Is never going to happen and even then it probably won't fix the disparity economically between Blacks and Whites. We could say more reasonable and long term benefits like free medical care and College but honestly everybody deserves that. Really most people already believe that Bernie Sanders ideas are merely a fantasy asking for reparations will just make them think he a clown and desperate for votes. It's a sad situation but we are living in a society where blacks are killed for just wearing hoodies to think they will in these times get reparation is beyond wishful thinking.
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