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[nynt9]

It's not a fair way to compare.

- The sales that the Wii had are the most important reason that all the Nintendo games made ridiculous numbers.
- 3ds & Wii U Smash came with no competition to both markets (3ds also beeing THE device in Japan).
- SFIV came in when fighting games were almost dead (mainstream). Also in a ridiculous time with Batman, ACII, CoD:MW2, Resident Evil 5, Uncharted 2, Bonderlands, Left 4 Dead 2, Dragon Age Origin.
- Don't think I have to say what happened with SFIII and the time it was.
- SF still sold 7M (according to Capcom) besides the fact that was bigger in the arcades


The problem with SF it's that it's not a party game like smash. I'm sure everybody has a friend that likes the game but doesn't buy it cuz "I suck at FG". Not saying it could surpass Smash in sales, but if it was as easy to play for casuals I'm sure it'll be much closer. Let's see how SFV does in the long term.

I like how your first two points are taking different sides. Brawl sold well because the Wii sold well! Ignore that Smash 4 is selling well despite the WiiU selling terribly, because other reasons!

Then there's the fact that SFIV had so many versions and platforms to sell on, which makes your third point contradict the first two. If we posit it against your second point, SFIV had no competition in its market, so it invalidates itself again.

 

[L Thammy]

- SFIV came in when fighting games were almost dead (mainstream). Also in a ridiculous time with Batman, ACII, CoD:MW2, Resident Evil 5, Uncharted 2, Bonderlands, Left 4 Dead 2, Dragon Age Origin.
- Don't think I have to say what happened with SFIII and the time it was.

I don't see how Capcom mishandling the Street Fighter franchise is an argument for Street Fighter's popularity. Sales-wise, vanilla is the most popular version of IV (as it was with II), so keep that in mind as well.

 

[ShadowFox08]

People keeping up that smash has been outselling SF, but I see no statistical evidence. Where's the proof?

 

[Haganeren]

Well, i WON'T deny Sakurai made the Smash Bros serie more for casual play than hardcore game.... But still, don't underestimate the depth of those game. Things like Directional Influence or the recent patch on shield show that developpers can makes some change which are very intersting from a competitive side and that have no influence on the casual side.

What i meant to say is that they also take more competitive gameplay into account, that may not be their priorities but i don't think Smash 4 would be as it is from a competitive standpoint if they ignored the competitive side totally like in Brawl. (Melee is like... A strange accident... A good one mind you....)

 

[Toxi]

This just isn't true. The amount of competitive players for both games relative to its install base is comparable. Smash tournament streams get more viewers than Street Fighter tournament streams, and Smash games consistently have more entrants in tournaments around the calendar than Street Fighter does. The only time Street Fighter has more entrants than Smash is Evo, which is once a year. Comparing the #2 SF tournament of the year to the #2 Melee or Smash 4 tournament of the year is laughable. Smash numbers shit all over Street Fighter.

I'm not sure whether this means the Smash scene is bigger or they're just better at supporting their game.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Suicine too!

Well, Suicune is an NPC in Melee and Smash 4, not playable. Only in Pokken. Charizard is an NPC in Melee as well, but playable in Smash 4 and Pokken, but I wouldn't count them.

 

[woodland]

Smash is trying to appeal mostly to casuals and Street fighter is mostly trying to appeal to people who go deeper than the surface level into thier game.

This. Melee was made for the same reasons as Brawl & Sm4sh, to create a fun game that would sell like hotcakes to the public. However, since Melee they've made the series way more accessible in an attempt to capture the massive casual audience, while SF has not gone nearly as far in that direction, despite some lowering of technical barriers.

Props to SF for keeping more of the barriers. Smash would sell like hotcakes no matter how high the barriers were.

Also - people citing duality in Sm4sh is silly. For Glory is one of the few concessions made to competitive play and it's ridiculous, anyone can watch a tournament match and see the importance of platforms. Sm4sh is like 80 fun - 20 comp vs Brawls 100-10

 

[GenG3000]

People keeping up that smash has been outselling SF, but I see no statistical evidence. Where's the proof?

People have been providing figures for each.

 

[Gunslinger]

Smash is a fighting game?/kappa

 

[TheMoon]

People keeping up that smash has been outselling SF, but I see no statistical evidence. Where's the proof?

I posted numbers just a few posts before this one.

 

[Stone Ocean]

People keeping up that smash has been outselling SF, but I see no statistical evidence. Where's the proof?

Just look up financial reports. Brawl and Sm4sh should be well over 10 million each by themselves while the single best selling SF game was 6 million ish not counting revisions.

 

[L Thammy]

People keeping up that smash has been outselling SF, but I see no statistical evidence. Where's the proof?

Best selling Street Fighter is II for SNES, at 6.3 million (according to Capcom's platinum list)
http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/business/million.html

Best selling in the Street Fighter IV subseries is vanilla at 3.4 million (according to Capcom's platinum list)
http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/business/million.html

Smash Bros for 3DS is at 7.92 million (according to Nintendo)
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/sales/software/3ds.html

Smash Bros for Wii U at 4.61 million (according to Nintendo)
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/sales/software/wiiu.html

 

[Toxi]

People keeping up that smash has been outselling SF, but I see no statistical evidence. Where's the proof?

Nintendo's shipment numbers are at 7.41 million for Melee and 12.77 million for Brawl.

 

[LordRaptor]

This. Melee was made for the same reasons as Brawl & Sm4sh, to create a fun game that would sell like hotcakes to the public. However, since Melee they've made the series way more accessible in an attempt to capture the massive casual audience, while SF has not gone nearly as far in that direction, despite some lowering of technical barriers.

Props to SF for keeping more of the barriers. Smash would sell like hotcakes no matter how high the barriers were.

Sirlin makes a pretty good hypothetical argument and Divekick makes a pretty good practical one that technical complexity of inputs as a barrier to entry doesn't actually do much to improve competition other than add a learning curve to "can I successfully do an input motion consistently".

 

[Anth0ny]

Sales figures:

Melee: 7 million+
Brawl: 12.93 million
Smash for 3DS: 7.92 million
Smash for Wii U: 4.61 million

Street Fighter IV with all revisions: 8.1 million

 

[Klart]

Because SSB is a Nintendo game, that's why.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Sirlin makes a pretty good hypothetical argument and Divekick makes a pretty good practical one that technical complexity of inputs as a barrier to entry doesn't actually do much to improve competition other than add a learning curve to "can I successfully do an input motion consistently".

It's sort of how SFV is going about as well. Having a 2f input buffer surely isn't making the game any less competitive. It's fine to have execution based characters but overall fighting games are better when they just flow freely.

 

[dark10x]

I've always thought that the core of Street Fighter can be enjoyed by hardcore and casual players alike.

With Smash, most competitive games basically remove a huge chunk of features and place a bunch of restrictions on how to play the game.

I'm not convinced Nintendo really cares about the competitive scene all that much and does little to cater to them. Capcom, on the other hand, clearly values those players.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Pikachu and Ryu are in the same amount of games at EVO.

Its true lol

 

[woodland]

Sirlin makes a pretty good hypothetical argument and Divekick makes a pretty good practical one that technical complexity of inputs as a barrier to entry doesn't actually do much to improve competition other than add a learning curve to "can I successfully do an input motion consistently".

Depends what you value. I value both, especially where it forces decisions. L-Cancelling is obviously one that has no downside not to do it. But if you look at competitive sports, players practice technical motions endlessly. I don't see the desire to eliminating most of that as of late, but meh.

 

[SCChappy]

SF is designed to be played competitvely as a fighting game.

Smash is a party game that people try to brute force into being a fighting game. It also has one of the most toxic communities out there.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

Smash isnt even built to be a competitive fighter thats according to Sakurai himself.

 

[Gunslinger]

Smash isnt even built to be a competitive fighter thats according to Sakurai himself.

Bro....it's a fighting game.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

Bro....it's a fighting game.

who's saying otherwise?

 

[crash-14]

Melee sold over 7 million units on the fucking Gamecube.

Melee was the launch window title for the Game Cube... it's not that surprising. And also one of the reasons why Smash grew.

 

[Sapientas]

Smash is a casual party game at its core
Street Fighter is a competitive game at its core

First post does it, not much to discuss really.
Comparing the install base and how the competitive Smash scene has to remove lots of content just to work answers the OP.
Granted, the "vocal minority" that is the Smash competitive community is very big and keeps growing.

 

[entremet]

Hasn't Melee sold more than the entirety of SF4?

Granted that game has been out for a decade and half.

Yes. Also one SKU versus numerous SKUs.

edit: I'm wrong.

 

[Gunslinger]

who's saying otherwise?

Me and stream monsters....

 

[Sapientas]

Bro....it's a fighting game.

Yes it is. Still, clearly not designed with an competitive scene in mind.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

Me and stream monsters....

The game is not built from the ground up to be a competitive fighter, no one is denying that its a fighting game.

 

[TheXbox]

Smash would continue to exist without its competitive community. Street Fighter would not.

 

[mclem]

No they are in 3 games each.
Pikachu - Melee, Smash Wii U and Pokken
Ryu - MvC3, SFV and Smash Wii U.
Unless you are counting Pokken as two

Strictly speaking, if you're counting Pokken as two Pikachus, shouldn't you count Evil Ryu? Or is he not in MVC3 or SFV? I don't keep up.

 

[notaskwid]

People were/are mad on how Brawl ruined it's competitive possibilities by adding random elements that couldn't be deactivated. Still the best selling game in the series.

 

[foxuzamaki]

The question is not which scene is bigger, it's which scene represents a larger portion of the game's audience

As previously mentioned in the thread, competitive SSB was born out of players changing the rules to something the developers hadn't intended. Competitive SF is born out of players digging into mechanics within the set rules

I do seriously think people are underestimating the power of streaming/tournaments on getting people's interest right now though for SF. We'll see how it pans out as they finish adding content over the next few months

The thing about the ''change rules'' thing is that smash is literally designed to be so incredibly flexible with its rules, you can have 4(now 8) people all the way down to 1v1, all items, some items, and no 8 items, set how much you want them to spawn, and multiple modes, smash is whatever you want it to be

 

[Coffee Dog]

The thing about the ''change rules'' thing is that smash is literally designed to be so incredibly flexible with its rules, you can have 4(now 8) people all the way down to 1v1, all items, some items, and no 8 items, set how much you want them to spawn, and multiple modes, smash is whatever you want it to be

Yeah, uh, that's cool and all, but there are moves and characters that gain viability when you add multiple people, and reflectors gain viability with the increased amount of projectiles that items add, because that's what the game is balanced around.

Slow characters will never be good in 1v1 smash. There are a lot of slow characters on the roster. That is because while Smash is whatever you want it to be, apparently competetive players want smash to be an imba as fuck 1v1 fighter with half the game turned off.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Yes it is. Still, clearly not designed with an competitive scene in mind.

But it is?

They did an entire year of balance updates, the majority of them having little to no effect on casual play. They also specifically released balance and bug fixes for comp doubles, since comp doubles plays with friendly fire on, which is non-standard in Smash for teams.

3/4 of the DLC new characters were designed to be complex, and are actually pretty intimidating for casual players to get used to.

Smash is actually designed to have a balance between competitive high level play, and more casual play, not 100% casual as is usually mis-attributed to Sakurai claiming.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Smash would continue to exist without its competitive community. Street Fighter would not.

This is perfect.

 

[Toxi]

The reason is perception. For Nintendo, the Smash Bros competitive scene is a "vocal minority" because it's not their target audience. For Capcom, the Street Fighter competitive scene is a "core audience" because its an important part of their marketing.

Actual tournament attendance or dedication of the competitive community doesn't matter. Nintendo doesn't care that the Melee community is still lugging CRTVs to grassroots events to play a 14 year old game. The perception of Smash as "competitive" is irrelevant to their sales strategy.

Meanwhile, Capcom repeatedly emphasizes pro-play and tournaments because, while the majority of Street Fighter V players will never visit a tournament, the game is sold on the image of competition.

 

[Mokubba]

SFv will not even come close to smash sales number. It will not even sell 20% of what MK and smash sold. The verdict is out by people. This game will fail badly financially.

Mortal Kombat or Mario Kart?

 

[Sheriff_Battlesnake]

Smash is trying to appeal mostly to casuals and Street fighter is mostly trying to appeal to people who go deeper than the surface level into thier game.

I would assume anyone arguing for Smash as a serious fighting game would at least be digging deeper than the surface level. So, are we saying they are the vocal minority of Smash fandom or vocal minority of the fighting game community?

 

[Kintaro]

Both games are competitive. Both games are deep. Only one appeals to a broader fanbase (I guess?) while one doesn't anymore (supposedly).

The mindset that Smash isn't a highly competitive, deep competitive fighting game astounds me. The game gets more viewers than any other game at the tournaments it is featured in. If Nintendo wanted to do it, Smash would be more "ESports" than Street Fighter could ever hope to possibly be. Just on appeal alone.

SF being for "competitors" only is a Capcom marketing ploy because...well, they believe that is all they have left.

 

[Jamix012]

i'm sure street fighter v will outsell smash 4, yet the smash 4 competitive community will be larger than street fighter's.

Even Wii U only Smash will outsell Street Fighter V.

 

[Vena]

This is what I was thinking. There's only so much people power out there. You can split hairs over sales, fans, moments however you like. If there's no corporate push for Smash to be out there as a competitive game it's going to remain in the back seat.

There's also something to be said about Street Fighter's longer history. Sort of like how Ferrari is considered to be a core part of Formula 1 now.

Nintendo backs both Melee and Sm4sh now and sponsors just about all majors and run the backend. Heck they even back N64.

They also, in smart fashion, don't try to push or impose Sm4sh taking prime time over Melee... Because that would definitely not go over well if they tried.

 

[Ansatz]

There is nothing else to fighting games other than playing competitively, that's where the game's depth lies in; what else can you do other than improving your skills? Is there some kind of content to experience, like a subspace emissary type of campaign?

Smash is a fullfiling game in other ways, not just for competitive play. If you remove the Nintendo skins and make a fighting game identical to Smash's 1v1, no items, omega stage then I would guaranteed not care about it. For the same reason I don't play SF.

 

[Regulus Tera]

The series are almost identical in sales numbers

Smash has around 38 million as of december 2015 and street figher has 38 million as of december 2015 but I still would say that Street fighters competitive scene is larger than smash brothers but smash brothers has a large competitive scene.

Street Fighter has had dozens of SKUs since the first game. Smash has had 5.

 

[udivision]

Smash would continue to exist without its competitive community. Street Fighter would not.

Never thought about it like that. Heh.

 

[Toxi]

Yeah, uh, that's cool and all, but there are moves and characters that gain viability when you add multiple people, and reflectors gain viability with the increased amount of projectiles that items add, because that's what the game is balanced around.

Slow characters will never be good in 1v1 smash. There are a lot of slow characters on the roster. That is because while Smash is whatever you want it to be, apparently competetive players want smash to be an imba as fuck 1v1 fighter with half the game turned off.

2vs2 doubles is a popular tournament format. Slow characters are not good there either.

They get even worse when you add items since faster characters can reach those items easier.

The reason slow characters suck in 1v1 is that they suck in Smash in general.

 

[Anth0ny]

Smash would continue to exist without its competitive community. Street Fighter would not.

wat

Yeah, uh, that's cool and all, but there are moves and characters that gain viability when you add multiple people, and reflectors gain viability with the increased amount of projectiles that items add, because that's what the game is balanced around.

Slow characters will never be good in 1v1 smash. There are a lot of slow characters on the roster. That is because while Smash is whatever you want it to be, apparently competetive players want smash to be an imba as fuck 1v1 fighter with half the game turned off.

sakurai put that "imba as fuck 1v1" version of the game as a primary mode for the online portion of his game

I've always thought that the core of Street Fighter can be enjoyed by hardcore and casual players alike.

With Smash, most competitive games basically remove a huge chunk of features and place a bunch of restrictions on how to play the game.

I'm not convinced Nintendo really cares about the competitive scene all that much and does little to cater to them. Capcom, on the other hand, clearly values those players.

nintendo held a massive smash bros tournament at e3 and continues to sponsor smash bros tournaments and provide setups

also, as I mentioned, for glory mode is a thing. competitive smash is LITERALLY glorified in the newest smash bros title.

 

[C.Olimar788]

The reason is perception. For Nintendo, the Smash Bros competitive scene is a "vocal minority" because it's not their target audience. For Capcom, the Street Fighter competitive scene is a "core audience" because its an important part of their marketing.

Actual tournament attendance or dedication of the competitive community doesn't matter. Nintendo doesn't care that the Melee community is still lugging CRTVs to grassroots events to play a 14 year old game. The perception of Smash as "competitive" is irrelevant to their sales strategy.

Meanwhile, Capcom repeatedly emphasizes pro-play and tournaments because, while the majority of Street Fighter V players will never visit a tournament, the game is sold on the image of competition.

This seems fair and reasonable as an explanation. Still bums me out though - I'd love to see a Smash Bros. where Nintendo supported competitive play to a larger extent. If nothing else it would be an interesting data point to see if it had an impact on the overall sales of the game or not - I don't think it would but some people disagree with me.

 

[udivision]

wat

I mean, is that wrong?