Support NeoGAF

[traveler]

that's a polite way of putting it

mine would've been

ITS NOT A FPS ITS A FPA SADFACE

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he didn't try them as the viewpoint causes him physical suffering.

 

[LiK]

If you get motion sickness, that's understandable. (and that really sucks. I feel like you're missing some of the best software gaming has to offer) I must ask, however, did you, by any chance, try the Prime series before you decided to not buy them?

he did not, he doesnt even own a gamecube. he's also missing out on awesome games like Portal

 

[rollingstart]

What? Do elaborate :lol

You know, things like where you wear a mask the view changes or when you look down you see your body, things from MGS3 I wont mention due to spoilers, various other scenes. They do interesting things that dont make you feel like a floating head. Obviously it isnt a first person shooter, im just making a comment on how they explore the first person view point more than a lot of games do.

For an example of an actual game totally in first person, Condemned 2 makes good use of the view point. It actually feels like you have a body and weight behind your actions. I really dont like it when first person games pretty much make you feel like a floating head.

ok, calling MGS the best is out there, but I give it a lot of credit because it doesnt even focus on being an first person perspective game type yet has so many nice touches.

 

[Tobor]

The OP answered his own question. Despite the limitations of the screen, it is indeed more immersive to a large group of people.

Why do the simplest concepts have to become mysterious enigmas around here?

 

[traveler]

You know, things like where you wear a mask the view changes or when you look down you see your body, things from MGS3 I wont mention due to spoilers, various other scenes. They do interesting things that dont make you feel like a floating head. Obviously it isnt a first person shooter, im just making a comment on how they explore the first person view point more than a lot of games do.

There's a lot of other games that have done that before as well, but, yeah, the "floating head" syndrome is something those FP games that have not addressed it need to deal with. Sad that MGS, which isn't even a FP focused series, handles that bit better than a lot of them.

 

[RurouniZel]

Your point about limited vision due to TV constraints and lack of the other senses that we have in real life "first person" is a valid one, (Although designers have attempted to compensate for these weaknesses with limited third person sections for certain interactions, motion detectors, radar, flashing indicators, etc.) but I don't feel the genre is popular in America right now because people particularly love the viewpoint, but because the genre has simply seen a lot of quality titles recently. If another genre experiences a similar boom in quality and quantity, I imagine we'll see the same thing, first person or not.

I do agree with this; games like BioShock and Halo are extremely well made with great production values, but I've just never been able to adjust to first person because someone will be shooting at me to the right, but I can't see them unless I turn and focus on them completely. Fine if there's only one enemy, but if there's another in front of me before I turn he may move on me before I turn back, and now I've completely lost him and will never catch up. I admit, the same thing can happen in a 3rd person game, but not nearly to the same degree for me.

Nah, the field of view is same. There's just an illusion of a greater field of view because you're behind your avatar.

But what I'm talking about is the field of view in relation to your character. You may be looking at the same TV in a 3rd person game, but I can see 180 horizontally and some vertical as well in relation to my avatar, whereas in First Person it's just the tunnel.

One thing that always bugged me is that when you look down in an FPS, you don't see your feet or body.

This has also bugged me similarly. It's creepy to not see your own body when you look down... like I'm just a disembodied head with one arm....

 

[Fredescu]

I just don't get it; how do you deal with the limited vision?

The game deals with the limited vision. It's the devs job to create and balance gameplay around the first person perspective. Plenty of things like minimaps, and directional damage indicators help there. To make up for it, the camera and aiming both tend to be easier to deal with in the first person than in the third person.

Don't forget the limited vision that third person games can give you too, depending on how it's done. Having a representation of yourself right in the middle of the screen means less prime real estate for action. I've asked myself "why isn't this game in first person?" more times than the opposite.

 

[neojubei]

he did not, he doesnt even own a gamecube. he's also missing out on awesome games like Portal

If Metroid Prime was like super metroid with better graphics I would buy it in second. If Portal is a FPS then I would not touch it or allow it into my house.

The limited view bugs the crap out of me, I tried the bioshock and resistance demos and i do not know how anyone could like the FPS view.

 

[traveler]

I do agree with this; games like BioShock and Halo are extremely well made with great production values, but I've just never been able to adjust to first person because someone will be shooting at me to the right, but I can't see them unless I turn and focus on them completely. Fine if there's only one enemy, but if there's another in front of me before I turn he may move on me before I turn back, and now I've completely lost him and will never catch up. I admit, the same thing can happen in a 3rd person game, but not nearly to the same degree for me.



But what I'm talking about is the field of view in relation to your character. You may be looking at the same TV in a 3rd person game, but I can see 180 horizontally and some vertical as well in relation to my avatar, whereas in First Person it's just the tunnel.



This has also bugged me similarly. It's creepy to not see your own body when you look down... like I'm just a disembodied head with one arm....

Turn up the sound. I'm not saying it completely accounts for the lack of peripheral vision, but it helps. Also, are you playing on a controller with rumble? If not, I'd suggest you do, as well integrated rumble also helps with the problems you're describing.

If Metroid Prime was like super metroid with better graphics I would buy it in second. If Portal is a FPS then I would not touch it or allow it into my house.

Ok, now I have to: wtf :lol

Preferences are one thing, but you don't even sound like you want to end up liking a game that takes place in first person, as if it would be shameful or something. What gives, man?

 

[LiK]

The game deals with the limited vision. It's the devs job to create and balance gameplay around the first person perspective. Plenty of things like minimaps, and directional damage indicators help there. To make up for it, the camera and aiming both tend to be easier to deal with in the first person than in the third person.

Don't forget the limited vision that third person games can give you too, depending on how it's done. Having a representation of yourself right in the middle of the screen means less prime real estate for action. I've asked myself "why isn't this game in first person?" more times than the opposite.

agreed. games like the GRAW series are cool cuz you can play in either FPS or third person mode. i assume MGS4 will probably bring some fans over to the FPS and 3rdPS shooter genre if they dont mess it up.

 

[Creamium]

If Metroid Prime was like super metroid with better graphics I would buy it in second. If Portal is a FPS then I would not touch it or allow it into my house.

MP: it is.
Portal: first person puzzle game. You don't even shoot anything in the game.

try them, now

 

[No Means Nomad]

Maybe they're popular because so many of the good games that come out now are first person shooters?

Also, certain games do let you increase your range of vision. I cranked it up on TF2 because it makes me feel crafty.

 

[RurouniZel]

agreed. games like the GRAW series are cool cuz you can play in either FPS or third person mode. i assume MGS4 will probably bring some fans over to the FPS and 3rdPS shooter genre if they dont mess it up.

This brings another interesting point. I think I'd enjoy games like BioShock more if I had the option of switching to a 3rd person perspective, yet many First Person games do not offer this as an option. I wonder why more games don't take this approach...?

 

[neojubei]

MP: it is.
Portal: first person puzzle game. You don't even shoot anything in the game.

try them, now

NEVER. FPS view makes me ill as well.

I do agree with this; games like BioShock and Halo are extremely well made with great production values, but I've just never been able to adjust to first person because someone will be shooting at me to the right, but I can't see them unless I turn and focus on them completely. Fine if there's only one enemy, but if there's another in front of me before I turn he may move on me before I turn back, and now I've completely lost him and will never catch up. I admit, the same thing can happen in a 3rd person game, but not nearly to the same degree for me.



But what I'm talking about is the field of view in relation to your character. You may be looking at the same TV in a 3rd person game, but I can see 180 horizontally and some vertical as well in relation to my avatar, whereas in First Person it's just the tunnel.



This has also bugged me similarly. It's creepy to not see your own body when you look down... like I'm just a disembodied head with one arm....

I agree with this.

 

[Creamium]

NEVER. FPS view makes me ill as well.

OKAY

 

[Kestastrophe]

NEVER. FPS view makes me ill as well.

So does shooting in MGS make you ill?

 

[traveler]

There is no such thing as "FPS view;" it's FP.

But, yeah, if you are even remotely prone to motion sickness in first person games, stay far away from Portal, good as it is. It's extremely disorienting.

If they want immersion they should just enlist in the army.

What? :lol

 

[mj1108]

because people want to feel like they are actually inside the game, to have there be a distinguishing between games and movies.

If they want immersion they should just enlist in the army.

 

[neojubei]

So does shooting in MGS make you ill?

Nope. If I had to play the whole game in the FPS view it would.

 

[LiK]

This brings another interesting point. I think I'd enjoy games like BioShock more if I had the option of switching to a 3rd person perspective, yet many First Person games do not offer this as an option. I wonder why more games don't take this approach...?

probably takes more time. you have to animate the 3D model to move realistically and stuff. when you see most FPS games outside the FPS viewpoint (like in a MP) game, the animations are actually pretty stiff and funny looking cuz they didn't really put a lot of thought into the character. it would be a nice option for some games although i think Bioshock is much better and more immersive as a FPS game.

 

[mentalfloss]

Because people in North America have a greater need to escape reality?

 

[traveler]

Because people in North America have a greater need to escape reality?

I don't follow.

 

[No Means Nomad]

This brings another interesting point. I think I'd enjoy games like BioShock more if I had the option of switching to a 3rd person perspective, yet many First Person games do not offer this as an option. I wonder why more games don't take this approach...?

Because this would ruin the game?

 

[neojubei]

This brings another interesting point. I think I'd enjoy games like BioShock more if I had the option of switching to a 3rd person perspective, yet many First Person games do not offer this as an option. I wonder why more games don't take this approach...?

If bioshock and the darkness had a 3rd person view option I would have bought both of those games.

 

[Creamium]

if you could switch to third person in bioshock it would reveal that the protagonist is in fact a dwarf

 

[JeremyR]

Your point about limited vision due to TV constraints and lack of the other senses that we have in real life "first person" is a valid one

While that's true your vision is limited, I'm not sure your subconcious knows this. Or at least mine doesn't - I often will lean my head one way or the other while playing an FPS (or even watching TV, actually, an old roommate pointed this out to me) to get a better view, even though obviously it can't

 

[ninjavanish]

But...real life is in first person..
How am I supposed to deal with the limited view ...in real life??
Why I can't change the camera to third person in real life too..???

Well maybe because in real life we are allowed about 170 degrees of viewing angle on the horizontal azimuth and about 60-70 degrees in both vertical directions.

Hint... a face mounted camera that lets us see ~80 degrees horizontally and 20-30+/- degrees vertically is NOT the same as our normal everyday experiences. If a first person game was the same as real life then when playing these games they would fill our entire field of vision.

 

[LiK]

If bioshock and the darkness had a 3rd person view option I would have bought both of those games.

i dont think so, you're not a big fan of horror games so i think you would avoid them anyways.

 

[traveler]

While that's true your vision is limited, I'm not sure your subconcious knows this. Or at least mine doesn't - I often will lean my head one way or the other while playing an FPS (or even watching TV, actually, an old roommate pointed this out to me) to get a better view, even though obviously it can't

I found myself doing the same things after having played them for a while, but it definitely took a few games before I was accustomed enough to the view to not miss peripheral vision.

 

[neojubei]

i dont think so, you're not a big fan of horror games so i think you would avoid them anyways.

If the story is good and not in FP view I'll play them.

 

[LiK]

If the story is good and not in FP view I'll play them.

yea, too bad. they both have great stories, imo

 

[I AM JOHN!]

This thread is mostly making me wtfisthisshit.jpg

 

[traveler]

I wouldn't really classify Bioshock as a horror game. (Haven't played The Darkness) Besides, Bioshock's FP cam actually ties into the central themes of the game and its story, so I'm not really sure it'd "work" (gameplay concerns aside) without it.

 

[neojubei]

yea, too bad. they both have great stories, imo

The FP view just kills the interest for me. The limited view, motion sickness does not translate into a fun game for me.

 

[Stinkles]

We like doing.

You like watching others do.

 

[LiK]

I wouldn't really classify Bioshock as a horror game. (Haven't played The Darkness) Besides, Bioshock's FP cam actually ties into the central themes of the game and its story, so I'm not really sure it'd "work" (gameplay concerns aside) without it.

pretty fucking scary game to me. there were a lot of moments that scared me. bioshock was ten times scarier than RE4 to me.

The FP view just kills the interest for me. The limited view, motion sickness does not translate into a fun game for me.

yea, too bad. maybe you can watch me play through a game and see how it is.

 

[bafflewaffle]

I'll admit, I've never gotten why First Person Shooters/RPGs/anything is so big here in America. I've heard people tell me before that it's "more immersing" and "seeing through his/her eyes" etc., but I've always found the forced perspective to be extremely limiting and thereby jarring.

The thing is, because of the limitations of TVs/monitors simply being a flat rectangular shape, you can only see directly in front of you at 45 degrees of vision. If you want to see what's to your left or right, you have to completely turn your character's head and now you can't see anything in front at all! The human eye is round though, so when I look straight ahead I don't just see my monitor and desk, I can see the window to my left and the TV to my right, without having to turn my head to see them. When I try to play a game that forces the first person perspective on me it's extremely jarring, like I'm looking through a little tunnel. This is why I greatly prefer the 3rd person perspective. While you're not "seeing through his/her eyes", I can see what's around them in 180 degrees at least, and both horizontally and vertically so, making it much easier and more natural for me to get my bearings.

I just don't get it; how do you deal with the limited vision?

I've had a similar experience and agree 100%. Also, I enjoy having a character I can see who I can project my identity onto. In an FPS its like my on screen identity is a disembodied handgun, which feels strange. I'm not sure how it would impact game design but it would be nice if all games gave a choice between first and third person view.

 

[I AM JOHN!]

I've had a similar experience and agree 100%. Also, I enjoy having a character I can see who I can project my identity onto. In an FPS its like my on screen identity is a disembodied handgun, which feels strange. I'm not sure how it would impact game design but it would be nice if all games gave a choice between first and third person view.

Many have tried, and most of the time, it just looks awkward and shitty (see: any Elder Scrolls game).

 

[traveler]

The problem is that first person and third person viewpoints are opposed. Asking for a game to be designed with both in mind is sort of like asking that developers offer both a linear game and an open game within the same game- they just don't work together, with some exceptions of course.

 

[Vast Inspiration]

I HATE FPS games, so I have no idea why they are popular.

Japanophilia - You has it
From your gamefaqs background, its not too surprising.

 

[traveler]

Japanophilia - You has it
From your gamefaqs background, its not too surprising.

I was trying to avoid getting into this. :/

 

[I AM JOHN!]

Japanophilia - You has it
From your gamefaqs background, its not too surprising.

 

[LiK]

The problem is that if first person and third person viewpoints are opposed. Asking for a game to be designed with both in mind is sort of like asking that developers offer both a linear game and an open game within the same game- they just don't work together, with some exceptions of course.

yea, the GRAW series is one of the few games that does it well. you might use the FP mode for precision and the 3rd person to check your surroundings. it's great.

 

[traveler]

yea, the GRAW series is one of the few games that does it well. you might use the FP mode for precision and the 3rd person to check your surroundings. it's great.

Right. If the game is designed so that some functions are supposed to work well with one viewpoint and some with another, it can work. So, in GRAW, the cover system, squad system, and movement abilities are generally structured around the third person view while the combat allows for first person precision. Both work without compromising the quality of the other.

Same thing for Halo, in some ways. Your vehicular abilities and turret control (and, consequently, the sections of levels where you use the above) are tied to and designed around the third person cam while the rest of the game is designed around the first person view.

 

[tak]

I don't like looking at dudes butts.

 

[I AM JOHN!]

yea, the GRAW series is one of the few games that does it well. you might use the FP mode for precision and the 3rd person to check your surroundings. it's great.

The main difference is that GRAW's style of FP is one that most people shy away from. You're just a camera; no gun, no indication that you're a person, nothing. It's the ultimate form of disembodied head syndrome.

 

[Mindlog]

Immersion

The correct answer is.

Spoiler

Precision AND Accuracy

Exhibit A: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Znf6kjl69xI

Of course there are a few exceptions, but most games just followed the tradition of the games that started it all.

 

[LiK]

The main difference is that GRAW's style of FP is one that most people shy away from. You're just a camera; no gun, no indication that you're a person, nothing. It's the ultimate form of disembodied head syndrome.

that's true, altho i liked using both for some reason

 

[DarkJediKnight]

I'll admit, I've never gotten why First Person Shooters/RPGs/anything is so big here in America. I've heard people tell me before that it's "more immersing" and "seeing through his/her eyes" etc., but I've always found the forced perspective to be extremely limiting and thereby jarring.

The thing is, because of the limitations of TVs/monitors simply being a flat rectangular shape, you can only see directly in front of you at 45 degrees of vision. If you want to see what's to your left or right, you have to completely turn your character's head and now you can't see anything in front at all! The human eye is round though, so when I look straight ahead I don't just see my monitor and desk, I can see the window to my left and the TV to my right, without having to turn my head to see them. When I try to play a game that forces the first person perspective on me it's extremely jarring, like I'm looking through a little tunnel. This is why I greatly prefer the 3rd person perspective. While you're not "seeing through his/her eyes", I can see what's around them in 180 degrees at least, and both horizontally and vertically so, making it much easier and more natural for me to get my bearings.

I just don't get it; how do you deal with the limited vision?

Because Male gamers in North America are REAL MEN! Not those pussy Japanese who love to farm crap and dress up their cats in games. :lol

 

[bafflewaffle]

I'll just add that I do better with the dumbed down, action-y types of FPS than the ones where you have to be very precise. I have enjoyed some of them, but generally I try to avoid them, especially online ones where I assume I'll just get my ass kicked left and right.