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[Vidiot]

I have no idea why people like adventure 2 so much. You play a decent Sonic level then are forced to do the mech shooting and treasure hunting shit. At least adventure 1 let me do an entire game through of the decent Sonic levels.

I also have no idea why people praise Sonic R. It's a racing game with like 5 tracks and horribly imbalanced racers. Total shit.

Anyway yeah, colors and generations were actually pretty great.

 

[Camjo-Z]

I don't think it's that difficult to make a good Sonic game, but the people in charge of making them seem to have an obsession with fucking things up at every possible turn.

Just take Sonic 4, for example. Who at Sonic Team seriously thought that what gamers wanted from the sequel to the greatest Sonic games of all time were some rehashed level tropes from Sonic 1+2, uninspired and unappealing synth music, and physics/handling that didn't even attempt to replicate the classics? It's just bewildering.

I also have no idea why people praise Sonic R. It's a racing game with like 5 tracks and horribly imbalanced racers. Total shit.

I actually like Sonic R a lot, but it's mostly for the novelty of running around as blocky 3D Sonic with awesome Richard Jacques music playing. Anyone claiming it's got good gameplay is kidding themselves.

 

[tbm24]

I quite enjoyed my time playing Sonic Lost Worlds. I don't regret my Wii U purchase of it.

 

[Sciz]

Just take Sonic 4, for example. Who at Sonic Team seriously thought that what gamers wanted from the sequel to the greatest Sonic games of all time were some rehashed level tropes from Sonic 1+2, uninspired and unappealing synth music, and physics/handling that didn't even attempt to replicate the classics? It's just bewildering.

It's quite likely that Sonic 4 started life as a simple iOS exclusive title that was unwisely promoted to classic sequel.

 

[Elija2]

I found all the good Sonic games:

 

[Mazzo]

It's interesting people say this because to me, the ring system probably saves the games. Because sonic moves so fast, like you said, on early playthroughs you run into unexpected obstacles and get hurt. But the ring system means you don't DIE too much from this, because you can grab your health back almost instantly.

At the same time, you are still punished for hitting the obstacle because you lose rings. You can slowly dwindle down to 1 or 2 left with enough accidents, and you won't score lives at the end of the level. It's a pretty great, fair yet punishing system IMO.

It's not that it's difficult, it's just frustating. Sure, I can get 1 ring back and try again forever, but this usually means I'm gonna get to full speed, crash again, and repeat until I finish the level, get the worst grade and just not have a good experience.

I also don't think it's always fair, because often I don't feel responsible for not dodging a spike in a fraction of a second since just before it was off-screen, or not spotting the right path on a particularly confusing level.

 

[Aostia]

So boom ìs already a bad game?
Btw generation and colors are very good

 

[SkyOdin]

I'm going to have to agree with Mazzo: there is a fundamental conflict between speed and platforming. To be honest, I am one of those people who doesn't rate the original Genesis games too highly. My experience with them comes down to always running into spikes and enemies whenever I actually try to run fast.

Just about the only Sonic levels that I have enjoyed running fast through were the forest stages in Sonic Adventure 2 Battle. It has been quite a while since I played that game, so I can't exactly recall why those stages worked for me.

But I am one of those people who generally likes Adventure 1 and 2 more than the classic Genesis games. Many people probably disagree with me.

 

[sn00zer]

So boom ìs already a bad game?
Btw generation and colors are very good

Seems to be...also The Order 1886 is going to be a terrible game because of black bars....neogaf doesnt jump the gun...it trains for years to jump the gun....It hurdles the gun....it flys over the gun.....its space in time is 20 min ahead of the gun before the gun even thinks of firing

 

[iamaustrian]

Maybe because the old "great" Sonic games were also average at best?

Floaty controls, lack of gameplay ideas and super boring level design camouflaged by high speed scrolling.
That's Sonic for me in a nutshell.
It's by far the most overrated platformer in VG history.

side note: Sonic 2(MD) and Sonic Adventure 2 are my fav Sonic games.

 

[Phediuk]

One might argue that Sonic was never really all that great. I like to think that it was successful on Genesis not because it's a quality platformer, but instead was just an okay game among an assortment of crap.

That was enough to gain a following and spawn some sequels, but eventually mediocrity shines through.

Whoa now. I'll agree that even the old Sonic games are not that good, but to dismiss the Genesis as "crap" is absurd revisionist slander. It's a great system with a shitload of great action games, platformers, and shmups, both from Japan and the West. If I were to make a list of my top 50 Genesis games, Sonic wouldn't even be on it.

 

[Garland7G]

They stopped using Blast Processing obviously

 

[Cizeta-Moroder]

I guess applying classic Sonic's physics in 3d is too hard to code. SA1 tried and it was disastrous.
Why don't they take example of skating games or Tribes?

 

[Biker19]

Sonic Colors & Sonic Generations would like to have a word with you.

SA2 was incredible, it's maybe the most loved sonic game of all time.

No way. The Sonic games on Genesis (mostly Sonic 2 & Sonic 3 & Knuckles) were the most loved Sonic games of all time.

Even the first Sonic Adventure game was better than Sonic Adventure 2.

 

[demidar]

To be honest, I don't understand the point of Sonic games. I mean, the point is to go fast right? You've got those "run in to the screen" segments but it always feels like you're on rails, then you got the 2D sections which are more platforming but it's not like you're going fast for the majority of it (though I'm sure there's some optimized speedrun that knows the perfect route to go fast) and the camera is too zoomed in to plan a path to go faster through springs, boosters and enemies. So to me, the focus of Sonic games is a bit muddled. Is it about speed or platforming? Because the elements don't seem to emphasize speed, even countering it sometimes.

One thing I really don't like are those loops or string of bumpers which completely takes control from the player. Sonic is going fast, but you're not doing anything while it happens so it doesn't feel like you're going fast, feels like you're watching something go fast.

Maybe the problem is Sonic is too fast? Without some way to convey future information very quickly (super drawn back camera or hazard identifiers) or remove things will instakill you, moving so fast compromises the player's ability to react to things happening (a twist in the track, a booster or spikes or enemies blocking the way). But Sonic's entire essence is about going fast which means making his game's focus on not being fast will elicit exasperation.

BTW is Adventure Battle 2 much better than Adventure 2? I gave Adventure 2 a shot on the PS3 but it sucks so bad compared to my memories of Adventure Battle 2 on the Gamecube (the controls and movement is terrible!).

 

[Rex_Harrison]

Because Sonic just doesn't translate into 3D. It was hugely successful as a 2D side scroller and Sega has been milking the Sonic brand ever since. They need to stop and make a new IP already.

Nostalgia is the only reason Sonic didn't die with the Genesis like it should have.

 

[Oblivion]

You know, people keep saying that it's hard to translate what was good about Sonic to 3D, and I agree, but it just occurred to me, that while Sonic Team can't seem to make a good 3D Sonic game, guess what? They also can't seem to make a good 2D Sonic either!

 

[Bill Rizer]

It's just difficult to make good platformer, period. Let alone a pure, tight, actiony not gimmicky platformer, and in 3d. No wonder very few developers as of today achieve truly great results in their outcome. I can think of Nintendo, and...?

 

[SloaneRangerSW1]

This might get people's knickers in a twist, but could it be because there never ever was a great Sonic game and the gameplay idea (a character so speedy that you don't have proper control) was flawed from the beginning?

 

[Balb]

Sonic Colors and Generations are great.

How do people always forget about these titles?

For the record, I hated Sonic Adventure 2. Best part was the Chao Garden.

"Great" is overselling those two games.

 

[Sciz]

BTW is Adventure Battle 2 much better than Adventure 2? I gave Adventure 2 a shot on the PS3 but it sucks so bad compared to my memories of Adventure Battle 2 on the Gamecube (the controls and movement is terrible!).

They're the same game.

This might get people's knickers in a twist, but could it be because there never ever was a great Sonic game and the gameplay idea (a character so speedy that you don't have proper control) was flawed from the beginning?

The classic games control perfectly well.

 

[GamerJM]

It really isn't, at least any moreso than most platforming IPs. Sonic Team just has kind of a shaky track record, since their games run the gamut from great with Generations to trash like 06 and Black Knight.

I think the problem at this point is that they try to do something different with each game with varied results. Lost World was really good conceptually and they had the fundamentals for a great game down but it's clear the team just, for whatever reason, be it incompetence, deadlines, or unfamiliarity with the engine they made, just had a lot of trouble designing levels well. I also think part of the reason could just be short development times. A lot of Sonic games just feel rushed.

 

[Metfanant]

SA2 was incredible, it's maybe the most loved sonic game of all time.

Is that a real comment?

 

[demidar]

They're the same game.

Nostalgia strikes again

 

[kyser73]

Because the main thing about Sonic - his speed - doesn't translate into 3D terribly well.

 

[thepotatoman]

Hate to break it to you, but the Adventure games are bad, the second one especially.

I hated Adventure 1 a lot of the way through, but ended up with a positive impression of it at the end. I still have no idea why. Bad controls, bad level design, etc.

I couldn't even finish Adventure 2.

Colors and Generations are better than any Dreamcast-era Sonic game, and I would probably even put Unleashed in that group despite the Werehog sections.

Adventure 1 had that amazing for the time Perfect Chaos boss battle which sort of made up for the fact that the rest of the game wasn't very good. I believe my opinion of the game instantly went up after that moment.

As for why many sonic games suck, I really do think it's the developer or publisher. The main reason we're already assuming Sonic Boom is going to suck is because of the character design, and that's because the character design simply looks absolutely terrible. That's a completely unforced error that has absolutely nothing to do with the pitfalls of modern gaming.

Honestly the only way modern gaming is to blame is if developers are completely overthinking the transition into modern gaming, assuming there's an absolute need for things like werehog beat em up sections to justify making a new sonic game. Generations was fantastic because they got rid of the crappy gimmicks getting in the way of the core gameplay, only to put crappy gimmicks back into Lost Worlds.

 

[Tizoc]

IMO making a good Sonic game isn't difficult.
It's just that the dev team attempts to try different play styles but don't do them right or they just don't fit with the Sonic gameplay style at all.

They need to go back to basics and work on what made the original Genesis Sonic games work; make a 2D game based on it.

I mean if Ubisoft can make 2 fantastic Rayman 2D platformers, there's still the potentiel for a great Sonic 2D game at least.

 

[tassletine]

Maybe because the old "great" Sonic games were also average at best?

Floaty controls, lack of gameplay ideas and super boring level design camouflaged by high speed scrolling.
That's Sonic for me in a nutshell.
It's by far the most overrated platformer in VG history.

side note: Sonic 2(MD) and Sonic Adventure 2 are my fav Sonic games.

Completely right. I think trying to push the basic gameplay is a mistake simply because it wasn't there in the first place. No sonic game I've played has been bad, but it's reputation as a classic was entirely made because Sonic took on Mario head to head, and was a cool character, not because of any innovative gameplay. A lot of Sega games are like this, especially from that period. They're all fun but pretty shallow.
If Sega want a new Sonic game done right they need to give it someone like Platinum or Treasure, a company who understands fast action and deep gameplay mechanics.

 

[nkarafo]

Its difficult to make a good Sonic game because they keep on giving Sonic and gang the same abysmal voices, they keep on greenlighting random gimmicks and ideas that have nothing to do in a Sonic game (weapons, bikes, Final Fantasy human girlfriends, werewolves), they like dumping down the game for the average Joes (homing attacks?), they keep on focusing on stories that Saturday morning cartoon producers would throw at the bin, they keep on creating random "friends" that look worse than badly designed pokemon and they don't care about things that made the original trilogy so great (like good physics and controls).

Its ironic how the best Sonic game the last years have taken so many ideas from Mario games. Even the latest one looks like a Mario Galaxy addon. Its ironic because the original Sonic game was designed to be the complete opposite of Mario games.

 

[nkarafo]

I think trying to push the basic gameplay is a mistake simply because it wasn't there in the first place.

I disagree. The original Sonic game (and its Genesis sequels) had good gameplay because the physics were perfect and that made the controls addictive. They even made a legit pinball level with those physics that was even better than full fledged pinball games. The level designs were a hit or miss but some were very good. The various different paths and shortcuts made them somewhat interesting and rewarded the faster players. But you could go slowly if you wanted. The Master System version of Sonic 1 was even better designed IMO because the chaos emeralds were hidden in the levels themselves (rewarding exploration).

 

[Kura]

Because the main thing about Sonic - his speed - doesn't translate into 3D terribly well.

I think the problem is thinking that speed is the main thing.
In genesis games, most levels were built for platforming: enemies to jump on, gimmicks, springs, collectables, bosses... They just happen to have some high speed sections to take advantage from Sonic speed and physics. But they werent the real focus.

Adventure 1 almost nailed the 3D formula. Very great mix of action/platforming, speed and plot. Sonic Adventure 2 started the focus on speed with Sonic, with less inspired levels (except Final Rush) and the plot was just OK.

Sonic Heroes (PC) as its own became my favourite 3D Sonic game. Levels were long and awesome, also the music. The gameplay was really good too (the fact that you play with all 3 friends at the same time dissolved the focus on speed). The plot, just a bit worst than Adventure 2. Overall, is a really great game.

Then Sonic 06 happened, and because they failed, SEGA though the should abandon Adventure formula and go for a new one instead of improving it. That was the mistake.

Then we got just great games, but lacking the true potential of the franchise.

I think Sonic Boom, despite the character designs is getting back some things that made great the past games.

So, less speed, more platforming. It's just that. I dont care if its sandbox or not. Just more platforming and higher difficulty that actually needs skill from the player.

 

[daxy]

I think most people got it down. It's mainly because the game Sonic sells itself to be is a contradiction with how a good game plays (and not what Sonic 1-3 and CD were in the first place). You can't make a high speed platformer without losing control as a player and essentially buttoning through an on-rails platformer. It's complicated all the more by setting it in a 3D space where judging distance for jumps is more difficult and Sonic's signature spindash is not viable. I think if they really want to go this route, something like rhythm-based input sections for the cinematic cuts Sonic devs seem to love could be an interesting solution.

 

[iamaustrian]

I disagree. The original Sonic game (and its Genesis sequels) had good gameplay because the physics were perfect and that made the controls addictive. They even made a legit pinball level with those physics that was even better than full fledged pinball games. The level designs were a hit or miss but some were very good. The various different paths and shortcuts made them somewhat interesting and rewarded the faster players. But you could go slowly if you wanted. The Master System version of Sonic 1 was even better designed IMO because the chaos emeralds were hidden in the levels themselves (rewarding exploration).

I have to disagree with you.
The gameplay was average at best. as were the controls.
Yes, the pinball physics were good or even great but the rest? nah.

Also you said it yourself: You could go slow but then the sonic game(s) really show their lacking and boring level designs. It's all about speed.
The levels are just totally bland.

pedal to the metal-looping-wooosh-looping-crash into random placed enemy
repeat

 

[TnK]

Is Sonic Lost World considered to be that bad?

Currently playing it, and I don't understand the hate for it. Granted this is the first sonic game I got excited for since last playing Sonic Advance for the GBA back in 2002-03

 

[nkarafo]

I have to disagree with you.
The gameplay was average at best. as were the controls.

I thought they were great. Especially the controls.

 

[Odrion]

A big issue with modern Sonic games is that the assets required to build even a short level is a tall order, so they always try to brainstorm ways around it. Unleashed tried to create slower paced levels with the Werehog, Generations had the "side quests" and Classic Sonic.

I don't know what was up with Lost Worlds, it felt like with Generations they nailed the modern Sonic formula down and then decided to throw it out.

 

[Crimsonclaw111]

If they took what was in Generations, and made it a full length game (Generations was way too short), it would make for a fantastic 3D Sonic title.

 

[Hermii]

Modern consoles lack blast processing.

 

[Zalman]

You can describe most Sonic games as "flawed games with potential". This potential is never actually realized because Sonic Team insists in starting from scratch almost every single time. An example of a time where they didn't do this is Sonic Colors. It took everything that worked in Unleashed and expanded upon it. So did Generations. Lost World is another one of these flawed games with potential and it needs room to evolve in order to achieve the same success as the "Hedgehog Engine". If Sonic Team scraps everything from Lost World in their next game, then that will prove my point entirely. If not, then we might actually have a really great game in our hands. That's what happened with Colors.

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

You act like there haven't already BEEN any good Sonic games in the last decade. There have been several excellent ones, including Sonic Generations, Sonic Colors, Sonic Unleashed (well, half of it), Sonic Rush, and Sonic Rush Adventure. (Also, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed if you count that.) There have also been a couple of good-to-great ones, like Sonic Lost World.

The only really "meh" Sonic games of late have been Sonic 4: Episode I and II, and they're more just disappointing than they are bad.

The last truly awful Sonic game was Sonic 2006, and Shadow the Hedgehog before that. This overblown Sonic hate is getting really ridiculous. The franchise has been back on track for awhile now.

 

[Dead Man Typing]

Is Sonic Lost World considered to be that bad?

Currently playing it, and I don't understand the hate for it. Granted this is the first sonic game I got excited for since last playing Sonic Advance for the GBA back in 2002-03

I really wanted to like it, but it's got some really terrible design choices. It has some of the cheapest deaths in the series history and that's saying something when it comes to 3D Sonic games. I've played it a bit but haven't been able to force myself to finish it.

Maybe it'll get better, like most 3D Sonic games, when you start to play the game exactly the way the developer wants you to play.

Generations is probably my favourite, just started playing it on PC and it looks stunning.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

I used to believe the Sonic games were terrible because the devs struggled with making 3D games because so much more work is involved.

Then Sonic 4 happened. Now I realize they're just completely inept.

 

[MagnaderAlpha]

Sonic 4 without the crappy pseudo 3D (needs full HD sprite) and a fixed game engine would've been decent sequel.

I used to believe the Sonic games were terrible because the devs struggled with making 3D games because so much more work is involved.

Then Sonic 4 happened. Now I realize they're just completely inept.

I think control is EVERYTHING when it comes to Sonic games. It doesn't matter if it's 2D or 3D, it HAS to control good, be responsive. I personally feel momentum based speed should take priority over super speed(for the sake of speed freaks). The wonky physics is why Sonic 4 sucks. Graphics are just coating, but the gameplay is the meat. If it's bad, it wouldn't matter if the game was beautiful sprite based, it would still play like ass(like it does). I just can't comprehend how they aren't able to get the physics right? You'd think there's a written formula Sega has in their vault for Sonic's speed/control. It's all math, in the end, right?

 

[WillyFive]

1. Sega rushes them out, leaving them with bugs and without polish.
2. The fan base that likes fast Sonic games don't like Sonic games with slower elements.
3. The fan base that likes slower Sonic games don't like Sonic games with faster elements.
4. There have been great Sonic games recently but stigma makes sure the haters don't play them.

 

[Village]

Because you were a kid when you played it

* played sonic adventure 2 yesterday*

Don't assume things like that

Those speed sections are still great.

It makes you wonder how they forgot how to do it, untill.... unleashed.

 

[Regiruler]

Its difficult to make a good Sonic game because they keep on giving Sonic and gang the same abysmal voices, they keep on greenlighting random gimmicks and ideas that have nothing to do in a Sonic game (weapons, bikes, Final Fantasy human girlfriends, werewolves), they like dumping down the game for the average Joes (homing attacks?), they keep on focusing on stories that Saturday morning cartoon producers would throw at the bin, they keep on creating random "friends" that look worse than badly designed pokemon and they don't care about things that made the original trilogy so great (like good physics and controls).

What? Smith and Pollock are excellent, as is the voice actor for tails (forgot his (or her?) name).

As for the story bit, I am assuming you didn't play colors, as the overarching plot wasn't taken seriously for once in favor of making some genuinely funny wisecracks.
Although the PA announcements were the best writing in the game.

 

[93xfan]

Worse yet, how is Sonic Adventure 2 considered a game that 'worked so well' ?

I felt like the non Sonic levels were a chore.

 

[Yaphett Kotto]

I used to believe the Sonic games were terrible because the devs struggled with making 3D games because so much more work is involved.

Then Sonic 4 happened. Now I realize they're just completely inept.

Its because it was given to Dimps; who forgot how to make proper Sonic games after the Advance games.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Sonic has too much baggage and too many hands pulling it in different directions.

They start from scratch every time because a huge chunk of people buy them, and then another chunk says "we want it that way", and then another chunk says "why don't you do it this way." They're trying to please everyone and just hitting little pockets of the dwindling fanbase with each release, while the general consumer has stopped giving a shit.

 

[petran79]

I think the problem is thinking that speed is the main thing.
In genesis games, most levels were built for platforming: enemies to jump on, gimmicks, springs, collectables, bosses... They just happen to have some high speed sections to take advantage from Sonic speed and physics. But they werent the real focus.

Adventure 1 almost nailed the 3D formula. Very great mix of action/platforming, speed and plot. Sonic Adventure 2 started the focus on speed with Sonic, with less inspired levels (except Final Rush) and the plot was just OK.

Sonic Heroes (PC) as its own became my favourite 3D Sonic game. Levels were long and awesome, also the music. The gameplay was really good too (the fact that you play with all 3 friends at the same time dissolved the focus on speed). The plot, just a bit worst than Adventure 2. Overall, is a really great game.

Then Sonic 06 happened, and because they failed, SEGA though the should abandon Adventure formula and go for a new one instead of improving it. That was the mistake.

Then we got just great games, but lacking the true potential of the franchise.

I think Sonic Boom, despite the character designs is getting back some things that made great the past games.

So, less speed, more platforming. It's just that. I dont care if its sandbox or not. Just more platforming and higher difficulty that actually needs skill from the player.

I liked Sonic Heroes much more than Sonic Adventure during that time. SH felt closer to the 2D Sonic platformers. Unfortunately it was marred by very bad collision and controls and it required double the precision (and luck) of 2D Sonic in order to progress.

Sonic Adventure with the addition of inbetween FMV, dialogues and exploration elements, killed the enjoyment, despite featuring very good stages.

Sonic Generations corrected some of the issues of the earlier 3D games, even though it wasnt perfect. But it was less annoying to die due to miscalculation, since you knew it was your own fault.

Regarding the mediocrity of Sonic games, it also has to do with the fact that Sega nowadays is not as strong as Nintendo regarding marketing. Plus if you lack your own console, there are no hardcore fans to defend you......

Or else Sonic games would score 90 % scores too. With things as they are, they should be satisfied with 70 %. No one would dare to put this score in a Nintendo game, except in personal reviews and blogs.