Lord Panda
The Sea is Always Right
As a fan of all three franchises / game ... what?
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Why is Nintendo unrivaled in the AAA space?
- Thread starter KDR_11k
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As a fan of all three franchises / game ... what?
Nah the sandbox games are on their own level. I give credit to games like GTA1 for the sandbox genre well before I'd give it to Mario.
Let's just sum the whole thread up like this.
Nintendo has perfected certain genres to the point where they become the standard of comparison to those genres. That said, there are things Nintendo just doesn't do or do well. Big cinematic games is one of them, shooters another (although Splatoon looks awesome.) While no AAA can really take them on in say, the platformer genre, indies have been able to really push those genres into healthy competition to Nintendo.
Nintendo's been doing this longer than many studios and has created basically a gold standard for some genres. Those genres aren't currently popular so other large companies don't bother trying to compete in that space. Its just a matter of Nintendo does this right and other studios do that right.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Play create share. You create a level, you play it, you share it with the online community. Which Nintendo game did this before LBP? Not one.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
edit: Nevermind LBP was my mistake
I am? Hyperbole.. how doest thou abandon AAA, for my greener pastures, oh pinnacle so overshot?
MisterGrey3000
Member
LOL you're funny, I like you.
Level editors have been around forever in other studios and Nintendo games. I'll give LBP the online aspect but otherwise its a pretty barebones platformer with really shitty physics.
Case in point.
Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis had a level editor with online sharing features two years before the original LBP was released.
I wish some of these people could sit back and recognize how ridiculous some of the things they say are. This right here was the stand out post in this thread to me.
Oh, Mihael, I'm still waiting for you to explain how me breaking down your silly claims equals a PR statement.
Valve, Sony, Microsoft, and all 3rd party developers can't come close to the quality of Nintendo games? Please stop. It's hard to have a serious conversation about topics like this when you have people dismissing every non Nintendo game. I promise it won't kill you to acknowledge good games in other genres.
Who cares? There were probably a million games where you could share levels before LBP.
Besides that, WarioWare DIY released 6 months after LBP, but was in development (in its final form) for 2 years. It included online sharing of user created microgames. The game initially started development in 2003, but was stopped and restarted multiple times. Considering they decided to start up again during the development of WarioWare Smooth Moves (2006 release) entirely because they learned about WiiConnect24, it's pretty obvious they were planning the sharing of user created levels well before LBP was even revealed.
"The project gained new life during the development of the Wii video game WarioWare: Smooth Moves when the developers learned of the WiiConnect24 feature that allows players to exchange or send data."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarioWare_D.I.Y.
Edit: Didn't realize MvDK2 had online sharing also, or even a level editor at all!
Yes the big Nintendo franchises take forever to make and they have big budgets. Not the insanity of GTA and the likes, but still AAA.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I don't think Mario Maker is Nintendo intentionally ripping off LBP, to be honest. What I mean is, I don't think they make Mario Maker as their "answer" to LBP.
It's just a feature that many Mario fans have been asking about for a long time, so Nintendo is just responding to that.
Besides, the whole A rips off B while B rips off C while C rips off D is just a really silly game and totally reeks of fanboyism-fueled motivations/intentions.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
So you have quoted and replied to my same post like 3 times now. Why you hounding me fam?
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=118427516
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=118403831
Please stop. And of course there are other good games I never said there wasnt. Read better please.
Notor!ousG
Member
I've replayed Crash 3 a month ago and you would be surprised how bad it has aged. It won't hold up against Mario 64 IMO. The levels are all the same and the controls aren't really tight.
Amazeballs
Member
From what I can gather, their "creativity" comes from a well-defined methodology or logic of game design and most likely a development pipeline that facilitates their philosophies. This should be obvious enough from the work they've produced, especially now with the HD Mario games. It's understandable that they've kept mum about the specifics of their design principles, but I really wish I could learn more about their design process.
Western AAA game developers seem to prioritize graphics and grandeur at the cost of game design. My guess is that it would multiply already costly development cycles to design set pieces with respect in interesting ways with regards to game design. It should come as no surprise that many developers now opt to use the corridor with enemies map, since you only need to design one path, or open world formats with little regard to logical level design. Personally these games end up feeling more of a tech demonstration than videogames, but I guess it's easier to market tech than game design. There are exceptions like Valve, but they fall into the Nintendo category of developers since they have the renown to draw in a big crown so they can sacrifice graphics and tech for satisfying game design and retain an audience that way. Plus they don't seem to feel the need to annualize any of their franchizes.
Western AAA game developers seem to prioritize graphics and grandeur at the cost of game design. My guess is that it would multiply already costly development cycles to design set pieces with respect in interesting ways with regards to game design. It should come as no surprise that many developers now opt to use the corridor with enemies map, since you only need to design one path, or open world formats with little regard to logical level design. Personally these games end up feeling more of a tech demonstration than videogames, but I guess it's easier to market tech than game design. There are exceptions like Valve, but they fall into the Nintendo category of developers since they have the renown to draw in a big crown so they can sacrifice graphics and tech for satisfying game design and retain an audience that way. Plus they don't seem to feel the need to annualize any of their franchizes.
biglittleps
Member
shitty physics? The objects used in the LBP are home made and MM made the physics what we can expect from them in a fun way instead of more realistic. does this physics made its not fun to play? This game has customization, tools, levels like never before which are very fun to make/play. Critics praised this game very much and many people also love, shitty physics is just your opinion and i can give my reasons for other platformers too something like this which i don't like.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Because the genres aren't AAA anymore, more mid tier games by default.
The Nintendo brand and characters push them to AAA status in the eyes of the fans which other companies don't have.
So even if developer's did they would always be mid tier projects.
Although this would be different in the 90's where Nintendo type of games were more popular.
The Nintendo brand and characters push them to AAA status in the eyes of the fans which other companies don't have.
So even if developer's did they would always be mid tier projects.
Although this would be different in the 90's where Nintendo type of games were more popular.
I'm trying to understand the mindset of a hardcore Nintendo fan. I just can't understand how someone can be so emotionally invested in one company. You dodging every question isn't teaching me anything.
It's crazy that you're ignoring the existence of that quote you typed, but you responded to my last sentence and you're telling me to read better. Despite what you want to believe, Nintendo games aren't some untouchable god tier status games. I classify some Nintendo games as good games. If they "can't come close to Nintendo's quality" then obviously they aren't good games. Of course...if I use your definition, Nintendo will be in the SSS tier so other developers can still have "good" games.
Once again.
1. How is a response to that quote a PR statement? 2. Do you really believe that non-NIntendo developers "can't come close to Nintendo's quality"?
If you don't have the knowledge to answer these questions, what was your purpose for posting that nonsense?
Last time I checked this was a dedicated gaming forums. I expect people to know how to articulate their opinions and not post one-off posts and ignore real questions. There were many people who thought that was a joke post but you're dead serious.
TheRedSnifit
Member
I can't figure out what any of this page's comments have to do with the OP.
Amazeballs
Member
I wonder if it would help if the OP's post was placed above everyone's reply box.
Everything wrong with this thread can be conveyed in this post and the one he is quoting.
TL;DR: Read the damn OPs not just the title.
What the fuck happened in this thread? From the crappy OP title; to people calling those who like Nintendo games deluded fanboys; to others not believing that companies NOT named Nintendo can make good games, I'm quite confused. I thought reading the whole OP would be something any sensible poster would do.
Freezie KO
Banned
I don't think this has been the case recently. Numerous third-parties like Next Level and Platinum have spoken about how Nintendo works with them and shares how they work. Nintendo does design talks at GDC. They even recently did an open seminar for Japanese game design students (or something like that).
Nintendo's been pretty open lately about their design philosophies. Although if you want to learn more and you don't have connections to Nintendo or speak Japanese, that might be difficult.
DanteGhost
Member
Man I was actually going to articulate a good response to the OP, but how dare I like something not made by Nintendo. How dare I say another publisher gives the same polish and hard work to their products. Because from what I've read talented people only work at
Nintendo.
The sad part of all this is that some of this crazy replies come from people calling themselves gamers. More like haters.
Nintendo.
The sad part of all this is that some of this crazy replies come from people calling themselves gamers. More like haters.
maneil99
Member
Because the people that want those types of games buy nintendo hardware. The effort needed to exceed it would be too great especially since the entire demographic lies on a single system that can advertise its games for free.
The market for 2d Games isn't there on the large scale, hence why less people are buying nintendo consoles, it's a genre that has stopped growing and why would you want to compete when the head of that genre has 30 years of experience ahead of you?
The market for 2d Games isn't there on the large scale, hence why less people are buying nintendo consoles, it's a genre that has stopped growing and why would you want to compete when the head of that genre has 30 years of experience ahead of you?
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
no one reads the OP, the thread.
But yeah, what a terrible title.
I love Nintendo, but I guess those kind of titles don't sell that well so they don't compete, Nintendo is the best at what they do and they have a big following so they can keep making those games.
But yeah, what a terrible title.
I love Nintendo, but I guess those kind of titles don't sell that well so they don't compete, Nintendo is the best at what they do and they have a big following so they can keep making those games.
Man the thread title is very misleading. If you take it as face value, it's a joke because Nintendo is not even in the same league as most AAA game development these days. They are miles behind in scope, budget, inventiveness, new IP and the list goes on.
Seeing as you asked about 2D platformers and cartoony games, well the reason they are the best is that they have had 30 years in perfecting the same game over and over. Additionally, younger audiences are not particularly sophisticated in their game design requirements so games oriented towards that sort of audience can hit their mark easier,
Seeing as you asked about 2D platformers and cartoony games, well the reason they are the best is that they have had 30 years in perfecting the same game over and over. Additionally, younger audiences are not particularly sophisticated in their game design requirements so games oriented towards that sort of audience can hit their mark easier,
thekiddfran
Member
They are not at all. They are a one trick pony and rely on their proven mascots. (I don't blame them)
killatopak
Member
The millions that buy them.
your many many others that don't care about it is just fraction of those that do. You're a minority whether you like it or not.
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Everything is a Pong rip-off.
maneil99
Member
Yea and that lack of caring is really helping nintendo right? You are the minority, AAA games like GTA, Borderlands, Call of Duty, Assassins Creed, Halo, Uncharted, Battlefield and Watch Dogs are selling well above the rest of the industry. So think before you say something like "Who cares about AAA turds"
SolidSnakex
Member
Like I pointed out earlier, even Nintendo seems to think that Mario is the only relevant 3D platformer property. You don't see them making 3D platformers for Yoshi, Kirby, Wario etc. They remain 3D while Mario is the one that they take into 3D. That's not to say that they couldn't make a solid 3D platformer for any of those characters since they're by far the best 3D platformer developer out there. But it makes you wonder why they don't do it.
All of those games you mentioned are good games. And Sonic in particular is a very good game that's really content rich. Certainly much more so than Mario Kart 8, although MK8 obviously has much more polish. So I think publishers look at good games selling poorly, or nowhere near as well as Mario, and question why they'd even bother investing in it. Blur and Sonic were well received critically and received visible marketing campaigns. So they had everything that was really needed and they still didn't put up similar numbers. Publishers just aren't going to continually invest into a genre that really isn't showing any major success outside of a single series.
It's already been pointed out several times, Metroid isn't a big franchise and while Zelda sells well, it would probably take a huge investment in development to make a similar game. And the series seems to fluctuate too much in terms of sales for any studio to really take a risk on it. Although we've seen Darksiders and how that eventually turned out.
I think overall you've just named a bunch of genres that publishers just don't want to have anything to do with because success in them seems to be locked to a specific series or the games in them just aren't big sellers to begin with. Developers keep making FPS, TPS and now RPG's because they've seen how big games in those genres can be. And we're now in a period where publishers aren't willing to take huge risks. So they're funding what seems to have the best chance of being a success.
Nintendo has simply carved out a space for themselves that is in a different place than the current AAA landscape and the kinds of games those developers wish to make and have structured themselves around making. As long as they're profitable in that space, there isn't much incentive to step outside it.
That's really it and others have said it better than I. Shame the misleading title doomed what could have been an interesting thread.
That's really it and others have said it better than I. Shame the misleading title doomed what could have been an interesting thread.
I'm curious. How does this relate to other developers potentially making games similar Nintendo's own.
sephiroth7x
Member
Not many companies can make games as good as Nintendo... they are completely unrivalled IMO as their games all tend to be in the 8/10 + bracket.
Like what most people have said already, the market has changed a lot. At one point there was a lot of competition but even the humble platformer has changed to something completely different. Nintendo are just superb at what they do, game developers owe a lot to them!
Like what most people have said already, the market has changed a lot. At one point there was a lot of competition but even the humble platformer has changed to something completely different. Nintendo are just superb at what they do, game developers owe a lot to them!
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
If you really want to know PM me or something. All the assumptions and stuff you just posted is straight up clownish cant believe im even entertaining the thought to respond to that junk.
I think certain Zelda games could be considered AAA cinematic. ZOoT was for its time. Twilight Princess could be considered one as well. I guess it all depends if you consider the art style to be cinematic.
Captain Europe
Member
Yeah, they should just throw out their mascots they have been building over the years and stop making money.
That makes sense.
Interceptor
Banned
People don't read the op and start calling everybody a fanboy instead.
Wrong, right, wrong, wrong.
AzaK said:
Wrong again.
AzaK said:
Luckily for them, Nintendo generally designs most of their games well beyond any age scope outside of a few easier outliers, and they are more sophisticated than what you give them credit for. I know Nintendo ran over your dog a couple years back, but at least take your trolling sophistication up a notch.
Because Sony & MS can rely on third party whereas Nintendo cannot.
But anyway, I'd disagree with you. Sony has a lot of first party studios that release excellent games. Ofcourse some are not on the level of Nintendo's games, but they're definitely getting better.
I don't think you'll ever find games like The last of us, Uncharted or Bloodbourne on Nintendo consoles, and that's ok. I like having the hardcore experience on PlayStation while playing Mario/Zelda on Nintendo platforms.
It's unfortunate that they got the Wii U completely wrong and i hope their next console is better.
But anyway, I'd disagree with you. Sony has a lot of first party studios that release excellent games. Ofcourse some are not on the level of Nintendo's games, but they're definitely getting better.
I don't think you'll ever find games like The last of us, Uncharted or Bloodbourne on Nintendo consoles, and that's ok. I like having the hardcore experience on PlayStation while playing Mario/Zelda on Nintendo platforms.
It's unfortunate that they got the Wii U completely wrong and i hope their next console is better.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I think the term AAA gaming has become something that is poisonous to my brain right now. The same with "hardcore" and "mature."
TitusGroan
Banned
I, erm... really? Fucking really? Yoshi's Island, Super Mario Bros 3, Tropical Freeze and Kirby's Epic Yarn are all the same game over and over? 3D World doesn't have the inventiveness of other AAA games? Zelda U and Xenoblade don't have the scope?
Most AAA developers wish they could add the kind of small details seen in Mario Kart 8. And most AAA developers wish their games had the sophistication and polish of a game like 3D World. I'm not one to say that Nintendo are better than every other developer ever in the history of ever, but to write their games off as unsophisticated and unoriginal is just willful ignorance.
This thread's turned to trash anyway. The simple answer is that most AAA publishers are now chasing older teenagers and grown men as their demographic, as they have more ready access to a credit card for DLC, microtransactions and pre-orders than children. If they found a way to monetize kids games the same way they have 'mature' games, they'd be there quicker than flies on shit. Just look at Activision and Skylanders.
Let's be real. A lot of Nintendo's sins regarding IP are hardly unique to only them. The complaints are valid to a degree, but let's not pretend they're the only ones pumping out sequels or banking on established IP. They're not, and they never will be. Because leveraging IP is good for business.
Beyond the goalpost moving wherein we find a reason every new IP doesn't count, what really makes it feel disingenuous is that some seem to expect Nintendo to produce content at the rate of basically the rest of the industry. You'll see people posting new IP from like seven different dev houses then go "where's all the new, nintendo?!?!?"
Now i'm the one not on the original topic. Damn it all. lol
Beyond the goalpost moving wherein we find a reason every new IP doesn't count, what really makes it feel disingenuous is that some seem to expect Nintendo to produce content at the rate of basically the rest of the industry. You'll see people posting new IP from like seven different dev houses then go "where's all the new, nintendo?!?!?"
Now i'm the one not on the original topic. Damn it all. lol
Are Bayonetta and W101 not what you would consider hardcore?
MisterHero
Super Member
At E3, Nintendo/Intelligent Systems announced an RTS for 3DS that has artistic inspirations from western artists like Jack Kirby and Bruce Timm. People say it looks(plays?) similar to Valkyria Chronicles but the concept reminds me more of Freedom Force.
that's pretty fucking awesome
killatopak
Member
Maybe explain why he was wrong. You're responses can also be considered as trolling.
I think the problem with this lies in the fact that all these new IPs that different dev houses make are never made for the Wii U but for the other 2 consoles.
Nintendo fans being Nintendo fans as always.
1)as others already said where are Nintendo's Uncharted, Halo, Gran Turismo etc?
2)i don't doubt that Nintendo games are great, but imo they don't sell big numbers just for their own qualities. I bet that on other consoles Nintendo games would not sell that much(after a period of initial euphoria for seeing Nintendo games on non Nintendo consoles obviously). People on other consoles/PC is used to original and innovating 2d indie games. Do you honestly think that those people would appreciate and buy every single 2d Mario game like many Nintendo fans do or just 1 or 2? Nintendo knows the answer very well imo.
1)as others already said where are Nintendo's Uncharted, Halo, Gran Turismo etc?
2)i don't doubt that Nintendo games are great, but imo they don't sell big numbers just for their own qualities. I bet that on other consoles Nintendo games would not sell that much(after a period of initial euphoria for seeing Nintendo games on non Nintendo consoles obviously). People on other consoles/PC is used to original and innovating 2d indie games. Do you honestly think that those people would appreciate and buy every single 2d Mario game like many Nintendo fans do or just 1 or 2? Nintendo knows the answer very well imo.
Not really. It's pretty obvious that they have games that are large in scope, inventive, new IPs, not the exact same game over and over, etc etc. Examples of such have been spoken about over and over in this thread but were ignored by that particular post.
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