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[fritolay]

Another thing that goes hand to hand with this is consumer debt.

People pay with credit for something they can't afford. Don't you think the same people that won't save will also buy a cheaper model if they get more for it, not thinking or caring about long term reliability?

The same people that want it now on credit also want the most for their dollar short term, which means reliability is not the number 1 reason to buy. Therefore the companies that offer products for cheap to these consumers are going to sell.

It sucks if you are making quality products, and you are getting out sold and possibly going out of business because the consumer chooses to pay more with cheap products that they have to replace multiple times which equals more than the cost of your product. So what do you do? Join the crowd and make cheap models for those consumers.

In the end, it is not the companies mainly that are doing this. It is the consumer. As people have pointed out they choose this whether due to not doing research or not caring and buying cheap crap.

 

[KHarvey16]

Ah yes, the good old days when men were men, all children respected their elders and everything you ever bought lasted forever.

 

[Timedog]

where the fuck is the incentive to build floating cars if there's no money to be made in it?

Creators for the most part are not paid well. Investors are paid well. Somehow creators have incentive to create despite this fact.

Another thing that goes hand to hand with this is consumer debt.

People pay with credit for something they can't afford. Don't you think the same people that won't save will also buy a cheaper model if they get more for it, not thinking or caring about long term reliability?

The same people that want it now on credit also want the most for their dollar short term, which means reliability is not the number 1 reason to buy. Therefore the companies that offer products for cheap to these consumers are going to sell.

It sucks if you are making quality products, and you are getting out sold and possibly going out of business because the consumer chooses to pay more with cheap products that they have to replace multiple times which equals more than the cost of your product. So what do you do? Join the crowd and make cheap models for those consumers.

In the end, it is not the companies mainly that are doing this. It is the consumer. As people have pointed out they choose this whether due to not doing research or not caring and buying cheap crap.

This is true. There's way more random bullshit that people want to buy now, spreading their already dwindling buying power thin, meaning people are less likely to get something of high quality as an investment.

Also many modern things are much more complex, with more parts that could break.

 

[shanshan310]

This is especially noticeable in furniture. Stuff's just not very sturdy.

And clothing. Price can be no good indication either, I've had clothes that cost me a fortune that fell apart as quickly or faster than the clothes that cost me $15.

 

[Ovid]

There's planned Obsolescence but there's also the fact that when things become more high tech, more parts are prone to become defective. This is one of the reasons why a NES will most probably last you longer than the current consoles.

I don't buy that. I'm pretty sure Sony and Microsoft knew that their systems were made defective. Assholes.

When everyone has the same problem, then there is definitely a problem with how the consoles were made. They were made to eventually break.

This generation was my final generation in the console wars.

And yes, I'm bitter.

 

[gutterboy44]

Hyperactive planned obsolescence, like a new cell phone every year, is horrible because there is very little to no personal or environmental benefit for upgrading your device. The motivating factors tend to be marketing pressure or tech lust.

Your example of appliances is actually an interesting product in terms of upgrading/planned obsolescence. It easy to admire these appliances that have lasted your gran so long but in reality they are probably horribly inefficient and have been wasting excess gas and electricity for decades. Any burden the disposal of those appliances would have caused halfway through their life cycle would likely be offset several times over by now with their increased efficiency. It would be like driving around a 1964 V8 Oldsmobile boasting that it still works great but the fact of the matter is you are getting 5 mpg city and spewing hundreds of times more pollutants into the air than a modern car.

Planned obsolescence doesn't always have to be applied in a cynical fashion, unfortunately, the bullshit use of planned obsolescence is now the most common, eg cell phones.

Edit: Obviously you would be saving money with the increased efficiency of newer appliances which would also eventually offset the cost of replacement. It isn't environmental only.

 

[fritolay]

And clothing. Price can be no good indication either, I've had clothes that cost me a fortune that fell apart as quickly or faster than the clothes that cost me $15.

That is the other factor. You can buy expensive things that end up crap. You can buy name brand items and you just never know. The manufacturer could have had it made by a 3rd party.

Many name brand items are not even made by their own companies, they are sourced to some place else.

It just is too hard for consumers to know exactly who made their products and how good a quality it is. A company audits and tries to make sure if someone else makes their products for them they don't fail or are not made too cheaply, as their name on the product is at risk, but it happens.

Therefore you are taking a bet with your money, and if you bet on a product that costs more and doesn't last you lose more money than if you gambled on a cheap product that lasts longer than it should.

 

[Nevasleep]

I'm seeing that more products are being offered with longer warranties these days.
Take cars for example, big competition there.

 

[Futureman]

this threads just keeps going around and around, but I think the points have already been clearly made.

if you want something to last, you can certainly buy it. Most people are cheap and buy shitty, inexpensive items instead.

I doubt anyone here lived in the 50s.... holy crap there must have been some terrrrrible products back then.... we just don't remember them because they last only a few years or so like our cheap shit now. But I guess since Grandaddy actually bought a decent dining room table back in the day, that means there was NO cheap shit back in the day and EVERYTHING back then was built to last and YOU CANNOT buy stuff that is built to last now.

 

[Ovid]

I'm seeing that more products are being offered with longer warranties these days.
Take cars for example, big competition there.

I think cars are in a category by themseleves. Auto manufacturers pride themselves on how long their vehicles last. Consumers goods are a totally different story though.

 

[travisbickle]

GAF quote last month "It's ok that wages have stagnated the last 30 years, the things we buy are getting cheaper!."

GAF quote today "how come all the cheap stuff we buy is built like crap compared to 30 years ago?"

 

[ToxicAdam]

Confirmation bias.

You see something still working that is old and you think to yourself "Boy, they don't make them like they used to" but failing to acknowledge that there were a hundred thousand of those things made that are junked or not operable anymore.

Sometimes having things that work for a long time works against you. If it does break down or need a repair, the replacement parts are astronomically high because no one makes them anymore.

 

[KHarvey16]

Ok, other than the standard "oh everything was better a long time ago" nostalgia nonsense, we really need to address the methodology here. Picking out shit that lasted 30 years as a way of demonstrating things used to generally be made better is a terrible way of doing it. It's like setting up a net that only lets through things less than 3 inches around, then standing on the other side and claiming everything over on that side is less then 3 inches around. Of course 30 years later you'll only have stuff that lasts 30 years. The other shit BROKE and grandma threw it away.

 

[strata8]

I don't buy that. I'm pretty sure Sony and Microsoft knew that their systems were made defective. Assholes.
Then they charge you $200 to fix it. When everyone has the same problem, then there is definitely a problem with how the consoles were made. They were made to eventually break.

This generation was my final generation in the console wars.

And yes, I'm bitter.

I wouldn't say that. It's just that both the Xbox 360 and PS3 shoved components that were far too powerful for their time into tiny cases. The problems (on the Xbox 360 side, at least) were fixed in late-2008 once the manufacturing process had advanced enough to reduce the power consumption and heat output to manageable levels.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

That really isn't true, newer cars go wrong at scary rates although thats mainly due to the emission control bits that get bolted on, hell BMW one of the more reliable manufacturers have had to recall the new M's due to this tiny little issue of the oil pumps failing and the engine blowin' up.

If you want a reliable car find a early 90's toyota, if you want to become intimate with the receptionist at your nearby garage buy anything built in the past 5 years.

I call bullshit. Every car I've ever owned (98 or newer) has had great reliability. I had close to 150,000 miles on a 2000 Durango and probably had less than $500 worth of repairs over the years. It never failed to start for me. The only reason I got rid of it was because it got 15MPG. My fiance's 4Runner is a 98 with 205,000 miles on it, still running like a champ. I've got a 98 Cherokee that has 165,000 miles, many of them offroad/rock crawling and it may leak oil like a sonofabitch (it's a Jeep thing) but it starts up every time I turn it over.

I've actually never been stranded anywhere because of a break down, though maybe it's because I know how to fix basic problems and actual do my own maintenance. Take care of your cars and they'll last. Don't go 20k between oil changes. Service your transmission and gear boxes. It's not hard.

 

[bill0527]

I don't buy that. I'm pretty sure Sony and Microsoft knew that their systems were made defective. Assholes.
When everyone has the same problem, then there is definitely a problem with how the consoles were made. They were made to eventually break.

This generation was my final generation in the console wars.

And yes, I'm bitter.

Your anger is clouding your logic. I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your anger or justified, but no way did they intentionally ship defective consoles.

Microsoft paid dearly in bad press and a took a huge financial charge-off to fix the red ring fiasco. No way did someone sit in a board room and concoct this plan ahead of time. They made mistakes in quality assurance and rushed those systems out the door, but thats exactly what it was, a mistake, and hopefully they will learn from it. And while it caused a great inconvenience to a lot of customers, i think Microsoft tried to take care of a lot of those people by extending out the warranty for an unheard of length of time in the U.S. market. They fixed my out of warranty launch system twice and paid for shipping both ways, both times.

 

[shanshan310]

if you want something to last, you can certainly buy it. Most people are cheap and buy shitty, inexpensive items instead.

Often the cost of clothes is no indication of quality, as was just discussed.

 

[Monocle]

Obama.

Spoiler

Selective nostalgia. As always, quality products are available for a price.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

plaster walls,

My dads a proper, traditional plasterer, all the new guys are dry liners/skimmers that rely on plasterboard shite.

 

[Cousteau]

Built FORD tough?

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Confirmation bias.

You see something still working that is old and you think to yourself "Boy, they don't make them like they used to" but failing to acknowledge that there were a hundred thousand of those things made that are junked or not operable anymore.

Sometimes having things that work for a long time works against you. If it does break down or need a repair, the replacement parts are astronomically high because no one makes them anymore.

What? My grandmother has a vacuum cleaner from almost 30 years ago that still works. Are you seriously trying to tell me most of the vacuum cleaners from 30 years ago don't work anymore?

Built FORD tough?

Fix Or Repair Daily?

 

[bill0527]

There's planned Obsolescence but there's also the fact that when things become more high tech, more parts are prone to become defective. This is one of the reasons why a NES will most probably last you longer than the current consoles.

There's this point also.

I repair and refurbish a lot of game systems and all the ones from the 16-bit era going backwards in time are all rock solid and can almost always be easily fixed with a little cleanup and simple repair in about 10 minutes.

Things got real complicated and harder once game systems started coming with optical drives and sensitive lasers.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Of course 30 years later you'll only have stuff that lasts 30 years. The other shit BROKE and grandma threw it away.

unbeatable logic right here.

 

[Dishwalla]

Fix Or Repair Daily?

Never owned a Ford where this was true.

First car was a 30+ year old Ford Maverick, and I never had any issues with it. Same with the 2009 Fusion I've owned for just over two years now.

That's not to speak for all the Fords my parents had when I was a kid, whether it be the Taurus that was brand new or the Bronco that was used and the previous owner had driven it drunk and wrecked it. They were all good cars.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Never owned a Ford where this was true.

First car was a 30+ year old Ford Maverick, and I never had any issues with it. Same with the 2009 Fusion I've owned for just over two years now.

That's not to speak for all the Fords my parents had when I was a kid, whether it be the Taurus that was brand new or the Bronco that was used and the previous owner had driven it drunk and wrecked it. They were all good cars.

It's just a joke Chevy people used to make about ford.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

FIAT

Fix It Again Tomorrow

 

[travisbickle]

Often the cost of clothes is no indication of quality, as was just discussed.

discussed? You hardly discussed it.

The reality is for good quality clothing you pay a lot of money.

My grandfather was buried in one of the suits he bought during his early days as a civil servant.

He would spend 1 months wages purchasing a suit, locally tailored. He had about 4 suits, one for each season. He would have them dry cleaned every season. And his wife would tend to any loose thread when necessary.

Same with his coats, and my grandmothers.

I think your kidding yourself about what you consider expensive in clothing, spend a months wages on a suit or a coat, treat it well and it will last. I honestly think it will last longer because of the advancements made in material strength and treatments in dry cleaning.

 

[Dishwalla]

FIAT

Fix It Again Tomorrow

I thought it was Fix It Again Tony.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

I thought it was Fix It Again Tony.

Play it again Sam.

I dunno, I need sleep.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I thought it was Fix It Again Tony.

I've heard both but I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be Tony.

 

[yogloo]

Cheap stuff do not last as long. Isn't that kinda obvious?

 

[Dishwalla]

I'm guessing we aren't going to say what Pontiac stands for, are we?

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Dug out an old sewing machine a while back, it's all metal and shit and weighs a ton.

It still works of course.

 

[shanshan310]

discussed? You hardly discussed it.

true, but I didn't want to just repeat myself so I added that in. I wasn't meaning to close the conversation, I was actually trying to start one!

I think your kidding yourself about what you consider expensive in clothing, spend a months wages on a suit or a coat, treat it well and it will last. I honestly think it will last longer because of the advancements made in material strength and treatments in dry cleaning.

I think the most I've ever spend on one item of clothing is $200, so I suppose I can't really say much for really high end stuff. I'm young and not a big spender, but there is often little difference in the quality of cheap clothing ($5 - $40 range) and higher end middle class clothing ($70 - $120ish), I guess you would call it. Its probably harder to say for the really expensive stuff since its not normally subject to every day wear (I've only worn that $200 dress on maybe 3 occasions a year).
Men's clothes seem to last a lot better than women's. Last I heard women's clothing is now designed around 18 seasons a year, meaning it's made to be replaced after a couple of weeks. I hand wash almost all my clothes and still they fall apart. Most of my more durable clothes I bought secondhand. Fashion, at least, is nowadays made to fall apart.

 

[crazygambit]

I would have to disagree. Older vehicles were simpler mechanically and electrically. Which means less that can go wrong, and when they do break they are easier to fix.

While they were mechanically simpler, they also required way more user maintenance to run properly.

There was an episode in Top Gear were they took a look at some vintage sport cars (from the 60s I think) and while they were awesome for the time, they ran like shit compared to modern cars. They were slow, prone to overheating, suspensions and breaks were total crap compared to today's standards, etc. While the jump in car tech hasn't been anything like the ones in PCs or cellphones it's still significant in the last 40-50 years.

 

[Ty4on]

While they were mechanically simpler, they also required way more user maintenance to run properly.

There was an episode in Top Gear were they took a look at some vintage sport cars (from the 60s I think) and while they were awesome for the time, they ran like shit compared to modern cars. They were slow, prone to overheating, suspensions and breaks were total crap compared to today's standards, etc. While the jump in car tech hasn't been anything like the ones in PCs or cellphones it's still significant in the last 40-50 years.

Don't forget rust. That's why 60's and 70's cars are rare while 80's cars are almost common. Now it's common for cars to drive 300 000km without any major issues. Older cars didn't even have odometers that went beyond 100 000km/miles.

Totally unscientific (like this thread), but still funny.

Haven't we all figured out that we just remember the things that lasted and forget those that don't?

 

[travisbickle]

true, but I didn't want to just repeat myself so I added that in. I wasn't meaning to close the conversation entirely.



I think the most I've ever spend on one item of clothing is $200, so I suppose I can't really say much for really high end stuff. I'm young and not a big spender, but there is often little difference in the quality of cheap clothing ($5 - $40 range) and higher end middle class clothing ($70 - $120ish), I guess you would call it. Its probably harder to say for the really expensive stuff since its not normally subject to every day wear (I've only worn that $200 dress on maybe 3 occasions a year).
Men's clothes seem to last a lot better than women's. Last I heard women's clothing is now designed around 18 seasons a year, meaning it's made to be replaced after a couple of weeks. I hand wash almost all my clothes and still they fall apart. Most of my more durable clothes I bought secondhand. Fashion, at least, is nowadays made to fall apart.

Check out the brand names of your secondhand stuff. Maybe they'll offer newer things with the same quality.

For fashion, the major problem is the middle class has dropped out, because of tightening budgets, and very famous fashion labels are just directing themselves at the upper class, with prices the rich are happy to pay because of exclusivity. (The same has happened in furniture, I was a furniture designer.)

Then what happens is some high street sweat-shop brand steals the designs and produces them using the lowest quality material available. But if you go to a less well-known independent designer, they are using the same materials as the very expensive labels but at a lower price for their designs.

 

[Kai Dracon]

When it comes to stuff like furniture, sometimes I think the only way to get good stuff these days at reasonable prices is to go Amish.

In our area in Pennsylvania you can find outlets for Amish made solid wood furniture. Stuff's great. It's more expensive than the pressboard junk that's become American standard for the little people, but it doesn't suffer the insane marked up prices that good furnishings have in exclusive stores.

 

[Cubsfan23]

toyota

 

[travisbickle]

When it comes to stuff like furniture, sometimes I think the only way to get good stuff these days at reasonable prices is to go Amish.

In our area in Pennsylvania you can find outlets for Amish made solid wood furniture. Stuff's great. It's more expensive than the pressboard junk that's become American standard for the little people, but it doesn't suffer the insane marked up prices that good furnishings have in exclusive stores.

I don't know if there's any link, but historically Shaker furniture has been revered for its construction methods. Techniques and joint detail that we can't quite understand how at the time they could understand the tensions and strength created from their designs.

 

[Autumn Wind]

By the time something is worn out, there is something much better to replace it. Yes there is a lot of e-waste though companies are getting better at recycling programs such as taking back old electronics for a portion towards new ones.

 

[Neo C.]

You can still buy good, long lasting stuff, but you need to do your research. The price alone isn't a good indicator.
I got plenty of things which are doing fine after 10 years.

I have read that if your refrigerator is 10 year old or more, you should replace it due to the energy consumption. The improvements in technology make buying a new one cheaper on your electric bills. That could be propaganda to sell more, I don't know, but something to consider.

Refrigerator use energy constantly, with the newest low energy consuming one you can save a nice amount compared to the old one.

I don't buy that. I'm pretty sure Sony and Microsoft knew that their systems were made defective. Assholes.

When everyone has the same problem, then there is definitely a problem with how the consoles were made. They were made to eventually break.

This generation was my final generation in the console wars.

And yes, I'm bitter.

Most of my Nintendo consoles and handhelds are still fine, except the DS Lite.

 

[Gomu Gomu]

Heh, the other day our Economics Engineering professor actually said this to us: "You don't want to make a product that lasts forever. It's bad for business. Your product should fail at some point. Just make sure it fails after a long enough period, that the customer would still be satisfied".
It sounded so sinister to me. But hey, money is money, right?

 

[KHarvey16]

The most nonsensical part of this whole thing is the idea that not designing things to last forever, in a sense not putting more emphasis on quality than 99% of consumers will demand, is a concept that suddenly struck businessmen in or around 1975. Before that everyone strives for perfection in everything they produce no matter what.

 

[ToxicAdam]

The big change I have seen is that things were (at one time) 'over-engineered' to some degree. Raw materials were so cheap and plentiful and globalism not as competitive, that companies had the luxury of making their products with heavier materials. Price wasn't the determining factor for consumers, but rather reliability (you can see it in many of the advertising slogans of yesteryear). I think that mindset trickled through all the trades.

They were also simpler products because the needs of the consumer wasn't as nuanced or demanding as today.

The big drawback is that many of those things are so god damned heavy that it actually becomes a liability. Ever have to move a refrigerator made in the 60's? Ever use a pipe wrench made in the 50's? Try to push a cart designed in that era? Lighter materials (that don't sacrifice strength) are clearly the way to go almost across the board. That's why America has gotten out of the cheap steel business and moved onto advanced materials.

 

[AstroNut325]

In 1940 a dishwasher or a washing machine costed anywhere between $250 and $400. In 2012 dollars that's over $4,000 USD! How many people claiming planned obsolescence would gladly fork out $4K for just for a washing machine?

 

[JB1981]

Got rid if my tube Tv, because it refused to die

this made me lol

 

[diffusionx]

In 1940 a dishwasher or a washing machine costed anywhere between $250 and $400. In 2012 dollars that's over $4,000 USD! How many people claiming planned obsolescence would gladly fork out $4K for just for a washing machine?

This needs to be emphasized. Stuff was *way* more expensive back then, we as a country decided we wanted cheaper goods more often and the market has provided that.

I have read that if your refrigerator is 10 year old or more, you should replace it due to the energy consumption. The improvements in technology make buying a new one cheaper on your electric bills. That could be propaganda to sell more, I don't know, but something to consider.

This only makes sense if the PV of your energy savings is higher than the cost of the refrigerator. I would say this is rarely the case. The cheapest and most energy efficient thing is the one you already own.

 

[travisbickle]

In 1940 a dishwasher or a washing machine costed anywhere between $250 and $400. In 2012 dollars that's over $4,000 USD! How many people claiming planned obsolescence would gladly fork out $4K for just for a washing machine?

And for that price today, you're getting an industrial-capacity beast.

 

[JohnsonUT]

A lot of blame for companies in here, but not a lot of blame on consumers. Consumers tend to buy things that are cheaper and do not worry about the long term investment. Why make a long lasting appliance that is a little more expensive than your competitor if your competitor will sell more based on the slight price difference?