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[SPCTRE]

Revoke my certification if old, couldn't find a thread that covered this.

I do realize that some games don't support off-screen play because they fundamentally rely on the asymmetry of main screen vs tablet screen info (e.g. ZombieU).

But, what about the rest? I'm talking third party ports of games like Mass Effect 3. Moving some menus or a mini map to the touch screen doesn't really qualify as a reason to preclude off-screen play for conceptual reasons, does it? Shouldn't the option for off-screen play be a baseline requirement then?

Maybe it was too difficult to draw a clearly defined line there, but I was kinda surprised to see that off-screen play wasn't a default functionality for all Wii U games, seeing how it's a core strength; even a unique selling point for the system.

 

[Zalman]

In hindsight it probably should have been a standard feature. Most games have it, but it's weird having to go to each individual game menu to find the option (if it's there).

 

[L~A]

Yes, it's weird.

Just like sound via the GamePad when you're playing on the TV (great if you use headphones at night): most games have that, but there's exceptions.... including Nintendo games like The Wind Waker HD or Xenoblade Chronicles X. Really puzzling, and annoying.

 

[Neoxon]

As you said, it would limit games that use the GamePad in other ways (see Splatoon). But I'm surprised that some of the games that don't use the GamePad extensively don't support Off-TV Play. I was under the impression that most games had it.

 

[DownGrader]

There is an off-TV play in Mass Effect 3 - hold the minus button.

It's not as painful to turn on off-TV play in Mass Effect 3 as it was in Warriors Orochi 3 Hyper and in Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, trust me.

Just like sound via the GamePad when you're playing on the TV (great if you use headphones at night): most games have that, but there's exceptions.... including Nintendo games like The Wind Waker HD or Xenoblade Chronicles X. Really puzzling, and annoying.

In Twilight Princess HD, all sounds come from TV only, including sounds which are clearly supposed to go from GamePad's speakers (subscreen "clicks"). That's way more unpleasant IMHO

 

[UncleSporky]

Because they wanted there to be a minimum of barriers for porting games to their system.

Third parties already release nothing there, the last thing they would want is to be forced into yet another requirement on a console they already don't expect to see great returns on.

If it's good enough of a feature then the devs should be choosing to do it on their own anyway. It's their own fault if they don't.

 

[Stopdoor]

Off-screen play really does get right in the way of actually using the gamepad for any other purposes, it's kind of a hard design choice to have to make.

Like, allowing it essentially admits that any gimmicks they've made for the gamepad are essentially trivial.

 

[jay]

Off screen play prevents any actual innovative uses of the second screen. I would prefer few to no games had it and instead we had a bunch of interesting designs that made use of the hardware.

 

[Regulus Tera]

I think it has something to do with having to render the game twice, hence why Pokkén goes down to 30 fps when in non-LAN multiplayer.

 

[FyreWulff]

I'd rather the suits not make game design decisions kthnx

 

[-shadow-]

I think it has something to do with having to render the game twice, hence why Pokkén goes down to 30 fps when in non-LAN multiplayer.

Off-TV is just the TV rendered image however scaled down to the gamepad resolution. It's not actively rendering twice for that.

We'll have to see why with Pokken it lowers the frame rate. Might be for another reason.

 

[Like the hat?]

I just wish there was a standard of how to switch. It's gotten better with most games using minus now, but for a while it was like the wild west.

 

[Dunkley]

Yes, it's weird.

Just like sound via the GamePad when you're playing on the TV (great if you use headphones at night): most games have that, but there's exceptions.... including Nintendo games like The Wind Waker HD or Xenoblade Chronicles X. Really puzzling, and annoying.

Xenoblade X does have gamepad audio if you're playing in Off-TV mode, sadly however it turns off whenever you switch the gamepad back to map mode which you will need.

Still since you have the output on TV regardless, at least that way you can have audio from the gamepad while still playing on TV when you aren't using the map.

 

[FyreWulff]

Off-TV is just the TV rendered image however scaled down to the gamepad resolution. It's not actively rendering twice for that.

We'll have to see why with Pokken it lowers the frame rate. Might be for another reason.

Pokken renders a different view for each player

 

[Luigiv]

Because it doesn't make sense for all games. Most games were it does make sense to include it, do include it, so it's mostly a non-issue. The only, very minor, issue we have seen crop up is that each game implements it little differently so I guess that can lead to some confusion.

 

[L~A]

There is an off-TV play in Mass Effect 3 - hold the minus button.

It's not as painful to turn on off-TV play in Mass Effect 3 as it was in Warriors Orochi 3 Hyper and in Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, trust me.



In Twilight Princess HD, all sounds come from TV only, including sounds which are clearly supposed to go from GamePad's speakers (subscreen "clicks"). That's way more unpleasant IMHO

I really hope image is mirrored on TV when playing in Off-TV, so that the XCX workaround works with this game too. F*** that s***

Xenoblade X does have gamepad audio if you're playing in Off-TV mode, sadly however it turns off whenever you switch the gamepad back to map mode which you will need.

Still since you have the output on TV regardless, at least that way you can have audio from the gamepad while still playing on TV when you aren't using the map.

I know that (that's what I've been doing for the past 125h ), but not all games keep displaying the game on the TV. Some just have a "Look at the GamePad" messages when you switch to Off-TV.

 

[mclem]

I suspect that after the Wii and to a lesser extent the DS, Nintendo were pushing very hard against the notion that "Nintendo systems require you to do something special and distinctive to take advantage of their unique features", look at all the companies who said things like "We love the idea of the Wii, we just can't figure out how to use that wand (or DS/touch controls)". So with both the Wii U and 3DS, the big central feature of the system can - if desired - be supported in the most minimal way with an utterly trivial workload. And even then - in both cases - Nintendo still didn't put a requirement in there forcing them to be used (see non-3D 3DS games, as well as Wii U games that make no use of the pad)

In my eyes, at least, it's a pushback against many of the various reasons third parties gave for not supporting the previous systems - in an achievable way, whereas the power issue is a more complicated, nuanced problem to solve.

 

[L~A]

I suspect that after the Wii and to a lesser extent the DS, Nintendo were pushing very hard against the notion that "Nintendo systems require you to do something special and distinctive to take advantage of their unique features", look at all the companies who said things like "We love the idea of the Wii, we just can't figure out how to use that wand (or DS/touch controls)".

That's just PR talk for "Yeah we don't give a crap about the Wii so stop asking us please".

Of course, there was the problem of not having the same controls as with a regular controller (which was really problematic for some games), but that's different from the "we need to do something special" bulltalk.

 

[TheMoon]

I really hope image is mirrored on TV when playing in Off-TV, so that the XCX workaround works with this game too.

 

[FyreWulff]

I suspect that after the Wii and to a lesser extent the DS, Nintendo were pushing very hard against the notion that "Nintendo systems require you to do something special and distinctive to take advantage of their unique features"

Nintendo has never required a developer use all the features of the Wii or DS, and even advised to not force a feature to happen if it didn't contribute back then. Terrible implementations are all on the developer.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

I honestly thought it was a default... would've thought that would have been one of the requirements for making WII-U games

 

[FyreWulff]

I honestly thought it was a default... would've thought that would have been one of the requirements for making WII-U games

Nope. Nintendo is the most hands-off when it comes to forcing feature usage or functionality. They mostly just want to make sure your game won't see the 3DS/Wii U on fire when you press X.

 

[TheMoon]

I honestly thought it was a default... would've thought that would have been one of the requirements for making WII-U games

Feature requirements like that don't exist, for better or worse. It's a myth that people love spreading, though.

 

[SPCTRE]

There is an off-TV play in Mass Effect 3 - hold the minus button.

It's not as painful to turn on off-TV play in Mass Effect 3 as it was in Warriors Orochi 3 Hyper and in Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, trust me.

Oh wow, consider my mind blown! Must have missed it.

 

[TheMoon]

Oh wow, consider my mind blown! Must have missed it.

Straight Right don't get their Wii U port praise for nothing. They tend to think of everything. They even put push-to-talk voice chat in ME3.

 

[outunderthestars]

Off screen play prevents any actual innovative uses of the second screen. I would prefer few to no games had it and instead we had a bunch of interesting designs that made use of the hardware.

This is one of the fundamental flaws in the Wii U concept.

 

[DownGrader]

Feature requirements like that don't exist, for better or worse. It's a myth that people love spreading, though.

Actually, there is a precedent of Nintendo forcing developers to meet certain feature requirements to make Game Boy Color-enhanced or Game Boy Color-only games to prevent barebone "colorization" like the one with most Super Game Boy games.

 

[tauroxd]

I really hope image is mirrored on TV when playing in Off-TV, so that the XCX workaround works with this game too. F*** that s***

What Work around? I want to play off tv while it keeps sounding off the TV... is this possible?

 

[Goldenroad]

I don't think Nintendo is in a position to be putting any kind of restrictions on third party publishers. They would certainly need to start this within their own first party studios, who don't even offer off-screen play for games like Splatoon.

 

[UncleSporky]

This is one of the fundamental flaws in the Wii U concept.

How is the fact that a feature allows for multiple implementations a flaw?

How would you fix it?

 

[The Boat]

Is there any game that doesn't rely heavily on the gamepad without off-tv? Can't think of a single one.

 

[ArtHands]

Its a damn if you do, damn if you dont for Nintendo here.

Mandatory off screen play means an additional hurdle for the third party to make wii u game. What if some team doesnt have enough resource for that feature?

You should highlight and bring the issue to those developers (eg bioware), not Nintendo

 

[TheMoon]

What Work around? I want to play off tv while it keeps sounding off the TV... is this possible?

The thing he just described in that same post. Off-TV mirroring. Same image on both screens but sound being fully channeled through the GamePad so you can play on the TV but use headphones plugged into the GamePad for sound. You just have to press (-) to deactivate Off-TV in order to access the GamePad UI bits.

Is there any game that doesn't rely heavily on the gamepad without off-tv? Can't think of a single one.

There are plenty if you look long enough. The Cave was the big one at launch. GamePad was just a fancy character select/switch interface that really wasn't necessary and the game never got updated to support Off-TV Play. It's mostly indie games that "forget" to support this.

Its a damn if you do, damn if you dont for Nintendo here.

Mandatory off screen play means an additional hurdle for the third party to make wii u game. What if some team doesnt have enough resource for that feature?

You should highlight and bring the issue to those developers (eg bioware), not Nintendo

A line of code to mirror the output to the other available screen isn't requiring many resources.

Also, BioWare has nothing to do with ME3 on Wii U and the game even does support the feature as we have discussed

 

[ArtHands]

I don't think Nintendo is in a position to be putting any kind of restrictions on third party publishers. They would certainly need to start this within their own first party studios, who don't even offer off-screen play for games like Splatoon.

Well if you play the game, you'll know why Splatoon couldnt really have a proper off screen play feature. It makes heavy use of the game pad.

 

[Goldenroad]

Well if you play the game, you'll know why Splatoon couldnt really have a proper off screen play feature. It makes heavy use of the game pad.

I've played it. Why can't I just use the "select" button to switch to the map if I need it? Kind of a cop out if you ask me. I manage to play a lot of other shooters without needing a map on a second screen.

 

[mclem]

That's just PR talk for "Yeah we don't give a crap about the Wii so stop asking us please".

Of course, there was the problem of not having the same controls as with a regular controller (which was really problematic for some games), but that's different from the "we need to do something special" bulltalk.

Nintendo has never required a developer use all the features of the Wii or DS, and even advised to not force a feature to happen if it didn't contribute back then. Terrible implementations are all on the developer.

Don't get me wrong; I'm aware of that. But from a PR standpoint that message didn't seem to penetrate the mass market. Heck, I worked in the games industry, and I had discussions with producers who regarded that notion as gospel.

 

[ArtHands]

I've played it. Why can't I just use the "select" button to switch to the map if I need it? Kind of a cop out if you ask me. I manage to play a lot of other shooters without needing a map on a second screen.

Because they dont play like Splatoon? You can't perform super jump in other games the same way you do in Splatoon, just for a start.

 

[The Boat]

There are plenty if you look long enough. The Cave was the big one at launch. GamePad was just a fancy character select/switch interface that really wasn't necessary and the game never got updated to support Off-TV Play. It's mostly indie games that "forget" to support this.

Ah yeah I remember that.

 

[Goldenroad]

Because they dont play like Splatoon? You can't perform super jump in other games the same way you do in Splatoon, just for a start.

Just allow me to do the super jump when I spawn and then, as I said, press select to pull up the map when I need to, like in BF or COD. You can spawn on team mates in BF, pretty much in the same was as Splatoon, so that argument doesn't hold water to me.

 

[TheMoon]

I've played it. Why can't I just use the "select" button to switch to the map if I need it? Kind of a cop out if you ask me. I manage to play a lot of other shooters without needing a map on a second screen.

Because it's designed for instant access. It's as simple as that. I've seen the "but why I can't I use some cumbersome workaround" thing thrown around dozens of times already but it's just the simple fact that it was not designed and balanced for that clunky alternative and instead everyone is on the level playing field of instant touch-access to super-jumps and constant at-a-glance map overviews without needing to press any extra buttons or interrupting movement.

 

[Robin64]

Just allow me to do the super jump when I spawn and then, as I said, press select to pull up the map when I need to, like in BF or COD. You can spawn on team mates in BF, pretty much in the same was as Splatoon, so that argument doesn't hold water to me.

You know you can super jump at any time you want, right? Plus the entire way of winning matches is to cover the most floor, a permanent overhead view is needed.

 

[Goldenroad]

You know you can super jump at any time you want, right? Plus the entire way of winning matches is to cover the most floor, a permanent overhead view is needed.

I'm not going to keep repeating the same points. Just to re-iterate...SELECT BUTTON. It's not like you can stare at the map and at the screen at the same time anyway.

 

[Ein Bear]

Always seems like an oversight to not have a standardised 'off-TV' button on the Gamepad itself. As it stands every game handles it differently, and you often have to go digging through menus.

 

[phanphare]

Because it's designed for instant access. It's as simple as that. I've seen the "but why I can't I use some cumbersome workaround" thing thrown around dozens of times already but it's just the simple fact that it was not designed and balanced for that clunky alternative and instead everyone is on the level playing field of instant touch-access to super-jumps and constant at-a-glance map overviews without needing to press any extra buttons or interrupting movement.

I always get a chuckle when gamers plead for less intuitive alternatives for the sake of tradition

 

[Xion_Stellar]

The whole thing was a double edged sword to begin with.Games that made GOOD use of the Gamepad Screen aren't able to do Off Screen Play because they required the use of the Gamepad touch scteen and games that made no use of the Gamepad (slapping some UI elements,Pause Menu or in some cases a Black Screen) easily featured Off Screen Play.So dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

 

[Kyzer]

Im pretty sure for the first three years of the Wii Us life everyone was pleading for the opposite along with the release of a gamepad-less version.

 

[ArtHands]

Just allow me to do the super jump when I spawn and then, as I said, press select to pull up the map when I need to, like in BF or COD. You can spawn on team mates in BF, pretty much in the same was as Splatoon, so that argument doesn't hold water to me.

That will heavily compromised the gameplay. Especially if someone wants to perform the jump in the middle of the game. Like when the opposing team is approaching your base with the tower soon and you are at the enemy's end of the map.

 

[UncleSporky]

You know you can super jump at any time you want, right? Plus the entire way of winning matches is to cover the most floor, a permanent overhead view is needed.

I've played a bunch of Splatoon, and while I think it's fine with the map on the pad I also think it'd be worth experimenting with putting the map on the TV including the locations of your teammates, and you could hold one button and press another to choose which one to immediately jump to.

Like when you hold R, next to their names/icons/whatever it shows A/B/X and you press one of those to jump to them.

This doesn't mean the map on the pad would have to go away either, just an option. If people who use that option play worse, it's their loss.

 

[TheMoon]

I'm not going to keep repeating the same points. Just to re-iterate...SELECT BUTTON. It's not like you can stare at the map and at the screen at the same time anyway.

No, but you can glance down in a split-second while you keep moving/shooting/jumping. You cannot do that with your pop-up select button method. Which is what I covered in my other post already. It goes against the way the game is designed to be played and that really is the end of that story.

I always get a chuckle when gamers plead for less intuitive alternatives for the sake of tradition

Yea, same thing is happening with Skyward Sword HD. "Just map it to the analog stick" ...brings me to tears every time.

 

[AtomicShroom]

Because it only works for games that make no (or very trivial use) of the second screen.

It requires developers to either: 1. Make a game that doesn't use the second screen at all or 2. To design/produce a large amount of code/content to transform the two-screen experience in a single-screen one.

And since Nintendo wanted to both 1. Allow maximum design freedom and 2. Not scare away 3rd parties, it made no sense to make it into a requirement.