Support NeoGAF

[hatchx]

I don't think Nintendo is in a position to be putting any kind of restrictions on third party publishers.

You can say that again.


I remember when I blew my friend's mind showing him that off-play TV worked in Sonic Racing by swiping the GamePad. He had the game for over a year and didn't know.

 

[RiggyRob]

Yes, it's weird.

Just like sound via the GamePad when you're playing on the TV (great if you use headphones at night): most games have that, but there's exceptions.... including Nintendo games like The Wind Waker HD or Xenoblade Chronicles X. Really puzzling, and annoying.

Are those literally the only Nintendo games that do that? I was wondering for ages why plugging headphones into the Gamepad meant I couldn't hear anything when trying to record our Let's Play series, so annoying when my TV headphone output hisses like crazy.

 

[jariw]

I've played it. Why can't I just use the "select" button to switch to the map if I need it? Kind of a cop out if you ask me. I manage to play a lot of other shooters without needing a map on a second screen.

How do you put an Inkstrike anywhere on the Map, with the map on the TV? Without getting killed during the 0.4 seconds that you have available to do it without anyone noticing it?

Furthermore, other shooters' maps are static, the Splatoon map changes all the time depending on the ink.

 

[Qwark]

I'm more annoyed when there is like 90% off-screen play, but then like one feature is missing. Like, what's even the point then?

Art Academy for example, you can draw all you want, but as soon as you start looking at lessons, you better have a good memory because there's no way to show the sample image without rewatching the entire video. If I'm doing something wrong, please somebody tell me because I would love to play this off-screen, but I need those lessons.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Nope. Nintendo is the most hands-off when it comes to forcing feature usage or functionality. They mostly just want to make sure your game won't see the 3DS/Wii U on fire when you press X.

Feature requirements like that don't exist, for better or worse. It's a myth that people love spreading, though.

ah, well ok then

 

[UncleSporky]

How do you put an Inkstrike anywhere on the Map, with the map on the TV? Without getting killed during the 0.4 seconds that you have available to do it without anyone noticing it?

Furthermore, other shooters' maps are static, the Splatoon map changes all the time depending on the ink.

If there's already a minimap on the screen, then when you hit the button to trigger inkstrike it briefly switches stick control to moving a reticle on the minimap instead.

And if this is too inefficient/risky, that's on the head of the person who decided to use that option instead of the more convenient pad map. Their loss.

 

[phanphare]

If there's already a minimap on the screen, then when you hit the button to trigger inkstrike it briefly switches stick control to moving a reticle on the minimap instead.

And if this is too inefficient/risky, that's on the head of the person who decided to use that option.

but why would the developers waste resources implementing a less intuitive solution for something that doesn't need one?

 

[UncleSporky]

but why would the developers waste resources implementing a less intuitive solution for something that doesn't need one?

It doesn't seem all that less intuitive, really. And would hardly take any resources.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Beggars can't be choosers.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

Xenoblade's UI is such a cluttered fucking disaster that I couldnt imagine it compressed further onto the gamepad resolution

 

[fernoca]

Oh wow, consider my mind blown! Must have missed it.

Yeah.
Own that game, so it being right the first thing mentioned was a bit weird.

It has off-TV and a nice use of the ganeoad screen with maps amd being able to mark were to send party members.

 

[phanphare]

It doesn't seem all that less intuitive, really. And would hardly take any resources.

the time and personnel it would take would be a waste, especially considering the fact that what would be added wouldn't actually improve anything

 

[Samemind]

There's enough arbitrary requirements for certification already, we don't need more resources funnelled away and tightening the scope of what devs can do on a given budget.

 

[UncleSporky]

the time and personnel it would take would be a waste, especially considering the fact that what would be added wouldn't actually improve anything

I'm not sure what you mean that it wouldn't improve anything. It would offer off-TV play as an option which a lot of people would enjoy, and also provide the option of not needing to take your eyes off the TV for the sacrifice of having some of the screen covered by a minimap. Some people would take them up on that.

You know what would be awesome too, they wouldn't even have to do the stick control reticle or button combos to super jump - if you were playing off-TV on the pad with a minimap, you could just tap it on the screen there. It'd be a lot smaller but would work fine.

 

[KingdomHeartsFan]

As you said, it would limit games that use the GamePad in other ways (see Splatoon). But I'm surprised that some of the games that don't use the GamePad extensively don't support Off-TV Play. I was under the impression that most games had it.

They could have just substituted another way to teleport, like what Battlefield does, and put a mini map on the screen, the gamepad is in no way essential for Splatoon.

 

[Robin64]

Xenoblade's UI is such a cluttered fucking disaster that I couldnt imagine it compressed further onto the gamepad resolution

Exactly like that. It's.. not ideal. :\

 

[phanphare]

I'm not sure what you mean that it wouldn't improve anything. It would offer off-TV play.

You know what would be awesome too, they wouldn't even have to do the stick control reticle or button combos to super jump - if you were playing off-TV on the pad with a minimap, you could just tap it on the screen there. It'd be a lot smaller but would work fine.

I'm not seeing how that would adequately allow for off-TV play

regardless I'm going to end this discussion, it's been done many times and always boils down to disagreeing with design decisions made by the developers

 

[UncleSporky]

I'm not seeing how that would adequately allow for off-TV play

regardless I'm going to end this discussion, it's been done many times and always boils down to disagreeing with design decisions made by the developers

You know with your argument here...suppose Splatoon had shipped with only motion control aiming, or only stick aiming. This is like if you said "why should they implement motion aiming/stick aiming when it wouldn't actually improve anything, such a waste of resources."

But they gave us the option, and the game is better for it.

 

[TheMoon]

Xenoblade's UI is such a cluttered fucking disaster that I couldnt imagine it compressed further onto the gamepad resolution

Xenoblade X has Off-TV play.

They could have just substituted another way to teleport, like what Battlefield does, and put a mini map on the screen, the gamepad is in no way essential for Splatoon.

Read the discussion. It just doesn't work.

 

[UncleSporky]

Read the discussion. It just doesn't work.

I'd reserve that judgement until I tried it firsthand. Honestly reading the discussion I get the impression that it would work reasonably well.

I really like the idea of playing on the pad with a minimap in the corner, and you don't even have to use button combos, you just tap the screen you're already playing on.

 

[KingdomHeartsFan]

Because it's designed for instant access. It's as simple as that. I've seen the "but why I can't I use some cumbersome workaround" thing thrown around dozens of times already but it's just the simple fact that it was not designed and balanced for that clunky alternative and instead everyone is on the level playing field of instant touch-access to super-jumps and constant at-a-glance map overviews without needing to press any extra buttons or interrupting movement.

Xenoblade X has Off-TV play.



Read the discussion. It just doesn't work.

Maximum 2 d-pad clicks = cumbersome workaround...Yea that just doesn't work LOL. The teleport way now isn't instant, you have to look down get your baring and click on the character, if they can get the map to show up instantly and just press the d-pad maximum twice it would be just as fast.
Edit: 3 clicks idk why I wrote 2.

 

[TheMoon]

Maximum 2 d-pad clicks = cumbersome workaround...Yea that just doesn't work LOL. The teleport way now isn't instant, you have to look down get your baring and click on the character, if they can get the map to show up instantly and just press the d-pad maximum twice it would be just as fast.
Edit: 3 clicks idk why I wrote 2.

You only read my post, not the discussion. You forgot inkstrikes and the element of uninterrupted gameplay all leading to balance.

 

[LegendofLex]

No, but you can glance down in a split-second while you keep moving/shooting/jumping. You cannot do that with your pop-up select button method.

You can if the map is semi-transparent when using the "press button for map overlay" feature, and it'd actually be more ideal for glancing at the map without leaving the action except when you touch the screen.

 

[TheMoon]

You can if the map is semi-transparent when using the "press button for map overlay" feature, and it'd actually be more ideal for glancing at the map without leaving the action except when you touch the screen.

I'm finding the usability of this questionable when you have the map overlaid over the screen but semi-transparent and then still have to make out the icon shortcut symbols next to your team mates in order to be able to quickly press the correct button and/or cycle through the available options.

It always seems to come down to a vastly inferior workaround that probably doesn't exist in the games because it simply doesn't work well and the designers went for the a uniform experience for all players that aligns with their design intentions over jerry-rigging something together just to be able to support something like Off-TV Play.

 

[Ogodei]

Then Tropical Freeze would never have released :-/

 

[jblank83]

Revoke my certification if old, couldn't find a thread that covered this....

... Shouldn't the option for off-screen play be a baseline requirement then?

Nintendo was not in a position to demand 3rd party developers do anything in regards to the Wii U.

 

[uncredited male]

All EA Wii U games support offscreen play.

Just saying.

 

[Malus]

I'm more annoyed that getting sound through your headphones isn't a universal feature. The fact that WWHD didn't allow you to do it makes me worry for Zelda U.

 

[Guardian Monkey]

Because some games wont work or some wouldnt release games for it. Less games is exactly what they dont need.

 

[ArtHands]

They could have just substituted another way to teleport, like what Battlefield does, and put a mini map on the screen, the gamepad is in no way essential for Splatoon.

There isnt a way to choose where to teleport in Splatoon as (or even near) intuitive as the game pad. It'll be like trying to use on screen keyboard with a controller. Saying is easy. Doing it isn't at all.

Now suppose you want to execute an inkstrike. You'll have to hold/press the map button, use analog to navigate to where you want it, then another button to confirm the inkstrike location. That's 1 step more than tapping on the game pad, not to mention wasting the precious seconds trying to navigate the ink strike location.

 

[LegendofLex]

I'm finding the usability of this questionable when you have the map overlaid over the screen but semi-transparent and then still have to make out the icon shortcut symbols next to your team mates in order to be able to quickly press the correct button and/or cycle through the available options.

Fun fact: the Wii U GamePad is still a touch screen even if you're using Off-TV Play. The "usability" would be literally identical since you'd probably still execute super jumps by tapping the map/player names - they'd just be semi-transparent overlays over your gameplay screen, brought up by holding a button (I'd prefer the unused L button to the - button) instead of residing on a separate display.

There isnt a way to choose where to teleport in Splatoon as (or even near) intuitive as the game pad. It'll be like trying to use on screen keyboard with a controller. Saying is easy. Doing it isn't at all.

You have exactly four options.

There are exactly four face buttons.

Theoretically a button-based input method (hold L to bring up map, press face button to execute super jump) should be quite intuitive as long as the icons indicating which position is tied to which button are large and obvious enough.

edit: nvm, I forgot about beacons.

Then Tropical Freeze would never have released :-/

Tropical Freeze supports Off-TV Play.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

I don't understand what the big deal is with off tv play.

Off TV Play = No Gamepad integration

Splatoon and ZombiU don't support off TV play because they can't; they're BUILT around having access to two screens.

Other games, like Wind Waker HD and the Wonderful 101 certainly can be played off TV, but you're missing out on a lot of really nice Gamepad features.

 

[ArtHands]

Fun fact: the Wii U GamePad is still a touch screen even if you're using Off-TV Play. The "usability" would be literally identical since you'd probably still execute super jumps by tapping the map/player names - they'd just be semi-transparent overlays over your gameplay screen, brought up by holding a button (I'd prefer the unused L button to the - button) instead of residing on a separate display.



You have exactly four options.

There are exactly four face buttons.

Theoretically a button-based input method (hold L to bring up map, press face button to execute super jump) should be quite intuitive as long as the icons indicating which position is tied to which button are large and obvious enough.



Tropical Freeze supports Off-TV Play.

3 characters, 1 spawn spot and 3 squid beakon. Thats 7 actually.

 

[LegendofLex]

3 characters, 1 spawn spot and 3 squid beakon. Thats 7 actually.

Oh, you're right, I forgot about the beacons.

edit: I prefer the idea of being able to still use the touch screen even during Off-TV Play when interacting with the single-screen map overlay anyway. As long as you can still bring up the map view with the tap of a button, there's no reason everything about interacting with the map couldn't be 1:1 identical to the two-screen setup.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Games like splatoon literally wouldnt exist in its current form if it wasent for nintendo not making that mandatory, no, it shouldnt ever be mandatory.

 

[UncleSporky]

There isnt a way to choose where to teleport in Splatoon as (or even near) intuitive as the game pad. It'll be like trying to use on screen keyboard with a controller. Saying is easy. Doing it isn't at all.

Now suppose you want to execute an inkstrike. You'll have to hold/press the map button, use analog to navigate to where you want it, then another button to confirm the inkstrike location. That's 2 steps more than tapping on the game pad, not to mention wasting the precious seconds trying to navigate the ink strike location.

Again, if we're talking about off-TV play implemented for Splatoon, so you're playing on the pad, and there's also an on-screen minimap there, you can just tap on that minimap on the screen you're already playing on.

Or heck in the instant after you activate inkstrike, the minimap could grow to full screen and you just tap it then.

 

[Saty]

Because Nintendo's two would-be selling point of the Wii U (it's controller) are at complete odds with each other. Hey, use the screen on the controller to reduce HUD elements and clutter from the main TV screen and to work in tandem. Hey, play the game only on the controller screen when away of a TV set so we actually do need to have a standard single-screen design. Mind-boggling. Basically admitting from the onset the whole second-screen is superficial.

 

[ghibli99]

I remember being annoyed about that w/ 1001 Spikes. Don't know if it ever got it in a later patch?

 

[LegendofLex]

Because Nintendo's two would-be selling point of the Wii U (it's controller) are at complete odds with each other. Hey, use the screen on the controller to reduce HUD elements and clutter from the main TV screen and to work in tandem. Hey, play the game only on the controller screen when away of a TV set so we actually do need to have a standard single-screen design. Mind-boggling. Basically admitting from the onset the whole second-screen is superficial.

1) Both the ability to play without active access to the TV and the ability to reduce the amount of TV screen real estate are benefits, even if they can't be easily realized when used together.

2) Many of the "tandem" elements are still possible when playing without a TV given that touch interaction isn't disabled when the image mirrors the TV and the second screen view is typically still accessible with the touch of a button. A good example is the ability to view a detailed map at any time while sailing in TWWHD, letting you coordinate your position without pausing the action, which you can still do simply by tapping the - button (toggling between On-TV and Off-TV) during gameplay. These features wouldn't really make sense in a game where second screen functionality/touch input was in no way realizable, but are still exploitable even when playing with only a single screen. This kind of play flexibility isn't possible on other platforms.

 

[Goldenroad]

My whole point up there anyway wasn't that Splatoon should have off screen play, merely that, if Nintendo is not going to do it with their own IP, they should not expect other developers to.

 

[yanipheonu]

It's almost as if Nintendo didn't really think the Gamepad through...

Seriously, looking back it now, I don't even really know what they were thinking would happen with that thing.

 

[Alfredo]

Well if you play the game, you'll know why Splatoon couldnt really have a proper off screen play feature. It makes heavy use of the game pad.

Why are people so against OPTIONS in games?

Splatoon makes heavy use of motion controls, and despite motion controls having an advantage over dual analog, the game still supports dual analog as an OPTION. Off TV play with an onscreen map should be an option, even if it theoretically puts you at a disadvantage. At least give the player the choice to do so.

Having an onscreen map also would've made Splatoon a better spectator game. The lack of a map makes streams of the game boring to watch, and (laugh if you want) limits its "eSports" potential.

Xenoblade X, for example, is much less convenient when using off TV play because of how the map is designed. They did not redesign that way the map works for off TV play, and it's less than ideal...but they still give you the option, and I greatly appreciated it, having played the majority of the game on just the GamePad screen.

I think having a barebones Off TV feature is better than none at all. Yes, people would likely bitch and complain about it, but many would still appreciate the option.

 

[The Real Abed]

I never buy a game that doesn't let me only use the GamePad. If the NX doesn't have a GamePad or at least support the ones we have out of the box I won't even bother getting it for a long time. I just love the feature so much.

 

[SoundPulse]

How do you put an Inkstrike anywhere on the Map, with the map on the TV? Without getting killed during the 0.4 seconds that you have available to do it without anyone noticing it?

For what it's worth, Call of Duty has been managing for years.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Why are people so against OPTIONS in games?

Splatoon makes heavy use of motion controls, and despite motion controls having an advantage over dual analog, the game still supports dual analog as an OPTION. Off TV play with an onscreen map should be an option, even if it theoretically puts you at a disadvantage. At least give the player the choice to do so.

Having an onscreen map also would've made Splatoon a better spectator game. The lack of a map makes streams of the game boring to watch, and (laugh if you want) limits its "eSports" potential.

Xenoblade X, for example, is much less convenient when using off TV play because of how the map is designed. They did not redesign that way the map works for off TV play, and it's less than ideal...but they still give you the option, and I greatly appreciated it, having played the majority of the game on just the GamePad screen.

I think having a barebones Off TV feature is better than none at all. Yes, people would likely bitch and complain about it, but many would still appreciate the option.

There's a bit of a difference between an optimization that amounts to essentially a minor difference in how controller input is handled, and one that requires significant additions/changes to the game's UI. Implementing features isn't free. The Splatoon devs decided to prioritize the game's intended control scheme.

 

[UncleSporky]

There's a bit of a difference between an optimization that amounts to essentially a minor difference in how controller input is handled, and one that requires significant additions/changes to the game's UI. Implementing features isn't free. The Splatoon devs decided to prioritize the game's intended control scheme.

Intended control scheme?

In one case they prioritized a single control scheme (you have to use the pad screen) and in another they provided options (motion or sticks)...they're both a matter of controls.

 

[LegendofLex]

There's a bit of a difference between an optimization that amounts to essentially a minor difference in how controller input is handled, and one that requires significant additions/changes to the game's UI. Implementing features isn't free. The Splatoon devs decided to prioritize the game's intended control scheme.

Based on what we know about how easy it is to make Off-TV Play work, including a button-activated toggle between the map and gameplay views (or, to put it another way, between the GamePad and TV views) would have been as simple as "a few lines of code." They could even use an identical UI, and the control scheme would of course be wholly identical as well.

 

[EDarkness]

Some games just aren't designed with it in mind and I would imagine that some developers don't wan to go though the trouble of getting it to work. I'll be honest, I'm even considering not having it in my own Wii U game because it's going to take a bit of time to get it to work correctly and I'm not sure if that time is worth it. Maybe other developers are in the same situation.

It's something I'd like to have in my game, but that feature could very well end up on the chopping block. I use the Wiipad for other things so it's not like it doesn't get used at all.

Why are people so against OPTIONS in games?

I've kind of wondered about this as well. I've been having a debate with some WoW guys about more class options and people are seriously against more choices. It's something I really don't understand. More choices just means that more people can enjoy the game. Just seems crazy that a lot of people would be against more options in general.

 

[fredrancour]

Off-TV is just the TV rendered image however scaled down to the gamepad resolution. It's not actively rendering twice for that.

We'll have to see why with Pokken it lowers the frame rate. Might be for another reason.

the viewpoint you see as p2 in pokken is a whole separate image, as a player in the arcade would see on their own arcade machine. you get your own viewpoint as you run around in the arena combat style. it's just like any game where splitscreen delivers a framerate hit. it's just that rather than let p2 choose to use a suboptimal viewpoint on one big main-screen view, or letting players choose to deal with limited FoV with normal on-tv splitscreen, they decided this was the only permissible non-lan option.