Lovely Salsa
Banned
some racist shit going on in this thread
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Why is Paris so full of pickpockets?
- Thread starter ConstructMe
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Shining Sunshine
Banned
Cuz Assassin's Creed
yup
freeofgreed
Member
Europeans always love to point the finger at american racism towards blacks, yet they turn around and do the same shit towards their Roma population (yes I'm generalizing but you seem to think that okays so it's ok!). Basically what you just said is the exact same logic racist Americans use to justify their racism towards blacks. It is an extremely dangerous mindset to have my friend.
Example of the pickpocketing in action. It is Daily Mail so the link is censored, but the pictures show you how the stuff works.
http://www.*****************/news/a...-broad-daylight-Paris-streets-heading-UK.html
Calling people racist is also a way they work. I got called 'racist' once in my life for trying to avoid some shady looking kid. He then approaches again, claims to ask the road to the station right next to the station, then tries to put his hand in my pocket. He went running quite fast without loot when I looked at him.
http://www.*****************/news/a...-broad-daylight-Paris-streets-heading-UK.html
It is really gangs flown in especially for this stuff, gangs of kids and women because they're so hard to be prosecuted. http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...pocket-gangs-jet-in-from-europe-30302092.html
Calling people racist is also a way they work. I got called 'racist' once in my life for trying to avoid some shady looking kid. He then approaches again, claims to ask the road to the station right next to the station, then tries to put his hand in my pocket. He went running quite fast without loot when I looked at him.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
Welcome to Western Europe. Enjoy your stay.
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
The only city where I had a bad experience.
Me and my friend were at the Arc de triomphe and she got pickpocketed. Only cash and credit card though, passport was safe. Police didnt do anything, other than writing a report so that we could get a new driving license (though I dont know what they could do anyway.
Still loved the hell out of the city though lol.
Me and my friend were at the Arc de triomphe and she got pickpocketed. Only cash and credit card though, passport was safe. Police didnt do anything, other than writing a report so that we could get a new driving license (though I dont know what they could do anyway.
Still loved the hell out of the city though lol.
MoodyFog
Member
Well we didn't found our societies over the enslavement of Roma people so I think we'll be fine pointing fingers.
It's not the same logic, there were laws made about the problem, it's regularly discussed by politics of all sides, it is known. It's not a case of some guys saying "oh I got mugged by a Roma, they're so bad!".
Paris probably has the more pickpockets because it also has the more tourists. But yeah, go to any popular big city in Europe (London, Rome and the like) and you'll have fucktons of pickpockets, especially around the most popular tourist attractions (a little less so if you stray away from those places).
Masquerader
Member
Because tourists are generally rich and dumb/distracted.
freeofgreed
Member
Good to know that as long as a country didn't enslave a group of people in past it's okay to prejudice towards them
Again I fail to see the difference, black crime is also something that is discussed politically as well. Hell look at the Ferguson and Mike Brown threads if you want some examples of politicians talking about it.
In order to discuss some problem in society it's often necessary to refer to a group of people. It's not automatically racism.
Roma (often children) are overrepresented in petty crime statistics, like pick-pocketing and various scams. Some are periodically moved from one country to the other by their handlers in order to evade the police. It's organized crime.
In the Netherlands, last year, most pick-pockets, panhandlers and shoplifters were Roma. They don't speak the language, they don't have work here, they don't go to school. They just steal stuff and some crime families get very rich.
How is this not a problem worth talking about?
MoodyFog
Member
You're welcome. If you want other stuff to interpret as you wish to act outraged, feel free to ask.
It is discussed when something tragic happens, you don't see politics from all sides admitting it's a problem that concerns most blacks.
freeofgreed
Member
No one is saying that it isn't a problem worth talking about, I'm just arguing that it's important to try to solve the problem without going to far and being outright discriminatory. For example reread the first guys comments
Paris is extremely cosmopolitan city, why is he surprised to find a group of people there? There are a shit ton of Americans living in Paris too, why isn't he surprised about that either. His comment shows that the moment he got off the plane he already had preconceived notions about them based on how they were back "in the Netherlands". Regardless of whether or not he is "right" he still shouldn't have judged them based off their ethnicity right of the bat.
Lol so basically, since you can't refute anything I say you resort to this childish response? Nice.
Warm Machine
Member
In my adult life I've been to Paris, Vienna, Venice, Naples, Barcelona, Prague, Havana, Luxembourg, Athens, Bratislava, Corfu, Dubrovnik, Bruges, Amsterdam, Lille, Frankfurt, and more. To some of these places more than once. I've walked with my wife around some of these cities back streets at 1:00am or later and felt totally safe.
Usually I carry a $1500 camera while doing so. I've only been fully freaked out a few times and have never been a target. I'm not that imposing of a guy either.
If pickpockets are what is stopping you from traveling. Your perspective is being clouded by fear.
Usually I carry a $1500 camera while doing so. I've only been fully freaked out a few times and have never been a target. I'm not that imposing of a guy either.
If pickpockets are what is stopping you from traveling. Your perspective is being clouded by fear.
MoodyFog
Member
"Europeans always love to point the finger at american racism towards blacks, yet they turn around and do the same shit towards their Roma population (yes I'm generalizing but you seem to think that okays so it's ok!)"
Childish like making it a contest of "We're less racist than you guys!!" you mean?
And your post just shows clearly that you know nothing about Europe and have never been anywhere near close to Paris, or have you?
freeofgreed
Member
Lol I'm in Europe right now actually
And how am I trying to make it a contest of whose less racist? Weren't you the one who originally posted?
Sounds like you're the one who wanted this to be a dick waving contest, not me.
And trust me I'm well aware of how racist America is, and I'm definitely not trying to say it isn't racist. I'm just trying to point out that Europe has its racist tendencies as well and how hypocritical it is for some of you to point the finger at others and not at yourselves.
MoodyFog
Member
Lol I'm in Europe right now actually
And how am I trying to make it a contest of whose less racist? Weren't you the one who originally posted?
I posted this in answer to your comment about "pointing fingers". I wasn't pointing fingers, but saying that it is a completely different issue than the racism towards black in America.
And honestly your comment about Americans in Paris is just mind-blowing.. When I go to school I see Roma people literally every single day. I have yet to see an American outside of very touristic areas like in front of the Eiffel Tower.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
No, it really doesn't.
Alx
Member
The part of the original message that can be considered racist is the first sentence, since it is the one associating a shocked feeling to a whole population. The correct way to say it would be "I was shocked at the amount of Roma(nians) panhandlers in the city" Everything else is an observation, and sadly true : a lot of the Roma you see in Paris are associated to panhandling and minor crimes. Which doesn't mean all of them are.
As a matter of fact it doesn't help the Roma's image that they are a closed community, so most people will rarely meet the honest Roma, who don't mingle much with the population. That's what makes it harder for Roma to fight that prejudice, while it's easy to dismiss stereotypes against black people when you can meet all kinds of black people every day.
That's not a well-chosen example. Americans aren't instantly recognizable, while Roma wear very distinctive clothes. Paris may be cosmopolitan, but most people dress and behave in a very traditional way. Roma stand out, and if you weren't expecting it yes I suppose it can be surprising. Not sure about being shocked, though, but that's another story.
How would you know they are American?
MoodyFog
Member
They clap after taking pictures
More seriously, just hearing them say it/talk to people etc.
freeofgreed
Member
"Americans" Doesn't really matter. It was just the example I chose to use. Would it be better if I said Chinese or Turkish people instead of Americans? Because statistically there's more of each then there are Romanians. So how come Snowmonkey wasn't shocked at how much Chinese or Turkish people there were in Paris.
Tourists.
My dad got robbed less than an hour after he got off the plane there.
Dumbass was wearing slacks and had his wallet in his pocket. Afterwards he wised up and got one of those neck-lanyard dealies that he could put his passport/cash in. TBF, they did coordinate it and it wasn't some goofball just running past and snatching wallets/purses. One of them blocked the subway entrance and the other came up behind and "bumped" into him, thus stealing his wallet at the same time.
Another time my mom had some "children" following her around and some Parisian came up and slapped them in the head when he saw one trying to get into her backpack.
My dad got robbed less than an hour after he got off the plane there.
lololol
Dumbass was wearing slacks and had his wallet in his pocket. Afterwards he wised up and got one of those neck-lanyard dealies that he could put his passport/cash in. TBF, they did coordinate it and it wasn't some goofball just running past and snatching wallets/purses. One of them blocked the subway entrance and the other came up behind and "bumped" into him, thus stealing his wallet at the same time.
Another time my mom had some "children" following her around and some Parisian came up and slapped them in the head when he saw one trying to get into her backpack.
MoodyFog
Member
I don't know, because they're less visible? He didn't talk about stats, he talked about what he experienced. And yes, while I'm pretty sure Chinese are like at least 10x more present in Paris than Roma people, when you live in Paris it doesn't feel like it at all.
Snowmonkey
Member
I wanted to say that in very touristy places (Louvre, Arc, Centre Pompidou in Paris, but also all around Rome) there were a lot of Romani. The Romani stick out, because of the way they look/dress, when you compare them with tourists. We can try to be politically correct about it, but this is the way it is.
Because it was very obvious we were foreigners, the Romani approached our group numerous times. Our response every time was not to respond to their cons, to walk away and mind your stuff and that of others. No one got robbed/conned.
It is actually very easy NOT to get robbed. I feel some people here seem to think Western Europe is like the wild west or something with people out to get you around every corner. The opposite is true in my opinion, but hey: who am I? My advice for not getting robbed: use common sense. If our advice helped the students not get robbed/conned, then we did our job.
Just to clarify: I am not talking about Romanian people, but Roma people.
Because it was very obvious we were foreigners, the Romani approached our group numerous times. Our response every time was not to respond to their cons, to walk away and mind your stuff and that of others. No one got robbed/conned.
It is actually very easy NOT to get robbed. I feel some people here seem to think Western Europe is like the wild west or something with people out to get you around every corner. The opposite is true in my opinion, but hey: who am I? My advice for not getting robbed: use common sense. If our advice helped the students not get robbed/conned, then we did our job.
Just to clarify: I am not talking about Romanian people, but Roma people.
Winter John
Member
I remember getting off a train one night in Paris and being followed by 3 guys. They jumped me at the bottom of the escalators and kicked the shit out of me. I didn't have much cash and nothing valuable so that was good. I managed to stab one of them right in the eye with my house key. It went right in there which was totally unexpected and pretty gross. I just panicked and lashed out when he charged me. The last thing I remember was him staggering around shrieking like a car alarm while his buddies took turns bouncing my head off the walls. Still, I hope I permanently blinded the rat. The whole thing was a mess. I got two broken fingers, bruised ribs, busted nose, a week in hospital and all for something like 20 quid.
freeofgreed
Member
Yes I agree, this is pretty much exactly what I was trying to say, and as I pointed out earlier much of my grievances came from that first sentence.
Well conversely do non Roma people even try to befriend any Romas? Or do they not even attempt because they all think they will rob them? Also just because they've never meet an "honest" Roma before isn't an excuse to make generalizations about them. I know some people who still think Germany is full of nazis and that it's not a safe place to visit. Do you think those are acceptable views for them to have simply because they've meet a German before?
Big problem in Rome too. Friend's dad was a victim and lost over $1000 - basically all the money he had (long story as to why he had it on him like this). Ridics. Maybe it happens less in the U.S. because the U.S. is a more violent culture? I live in NYC and I've never heard of a pickpocket problem.
Alx
Member
Funny anecdote, I brought a friend who didn't know Paris to the local "chinatown", and he was indeed surprised at the number of Asians there. Not negatively, he liked the experience actually, it's just something that you notice when it's so different from the rest of the city.
The fact that they're a closed community doesn't make it easy (or even possible) to befriend them. I've been living in Paris for 20 years, have met all kinds of people from all origins and continents, but not a single Roma, except those you meet begging in the street. The only ones I've met in my whole life was as a kid, at school. And not all of their kids attend school, and never for long.
If I were to believe my only experience I would have been as prejudiced against them than the most racist people out there, the only reason I'm not is that I know better (and even then, when I see a Roma coming at me in the street I immediately expect them to ask for money, and they usually do, just like I expect groups of kids holding a clipboard to be scammers, and they usually are).
freeofgreed
Member
This is fine and I'm not trying to paint you as a villain. I'm just hoping that what you told your students was "avoid anyone who approaches you" and not "avoid any Roma people".
Skellig Gra
Member
Alx
Member
XIIIème Arrondissement
Wait, he was surprised to see asians in the asian district x)?
He didn't know Asian districts existed to begin with.
He was from Marseille, apparently the Asian community isn't big over there. He was amazed that people were speaking Chinese (most probably Vietnamese actually) and that the shops were playing Asian music.Probably because you think all Americans clap after they eat.
Yeah... it almost happened to me a couple hours ago.
I was visiting Sacre Coeur earlier today. and there was a group of guys on the steps with strings. They were absolutely relentless. They literally ambush you as you go up the stairs, and they try to block your way, I had to push past, and still they followed me for a good while up the stairs yelling "where from? where from?".
Shortly after I got ambushed with a bunch of women with clipboards... Some survey I guess. Good thing my friend told me about them. The one lady shoved a clipboard in my face, I admit I did get distracted and didn't notice her other hand reach for my jacket pocket, good thing they're velcro'ed, so I quickly pushed her arm away when I heard the velcro rip, and walked briskly away from the group.
I was visiting Sacre Coeur earlier today. and there was a group of guys on the steps with strings. They were absolutely relentless. They literally ambush you as you go up the stairs, and they try to block your way, I had to push past, and still they followed me for a good while up the stairs yelling "where from? where from?".
Shortly after I got ambushed with a bunch of women with clipboards... Some survey I guess. Good thing my friend told me about them. The one lady shoved a clipboard in my face, I admit I did get distracted and didn't notice her other hand reach for my jacket pocket, good thing they're velcro'ed, so I quickly pushed her arm away when I heard the velcro rip, and walked briskly away from the group.
drive by shootings have been rare for a while now.
Tesseract
Banned
ty for this, absolutely fascinating
Yeah. The problem with discussing the Roma is people view them like any other minority without having any real understanding of Roma culture, and how that also plays a part in the negative perception of the Roma.
There has certainly been (and still is) prejudice and discrimination of the Roma for hundreds of years, but part of the problem is that the Roma don't help themselves. They live separate from the rest of the community and live by their own laws. They don't send their children to school. Children as young as 11-12 years old are married off. They are known to barter and trade children and a number of Roma communities have been involved in child trafficking.
http://www.livescience.com/40652-facts-about-roma-romani-gypsies.html
A case in the UK
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-smash-romanian-child-trafficking-ring-2104694.html
That's not to say all Roma are involved in this or that no other group is involved in child-trafficking, but something in Roma culture, particularly the way they force minors into arranged marriages, plays a part in this sort of problem arising within some Roma communities. A number of Roma communities also use these children to beg or steal on the street.
Basically, either prejudice has produced this culture of isolating themselves, or their culture of isolating themselves has helped to cause the prejudice. In any case, they both play part now in the problems Roma face with poverty and why crime and other issues plague their communities.
MoodyFog
Member
Probably.
0 to 100 real quick.
It's a struggle out here breh, got dudes mobbing down sunset trying to blast a homie on the street for having a pumpkin spice latte on the regular instead of chai.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
But... a lot of us -live- in these cities and have never been pickpocketed, or even took precautions against it. Obviously it is not as big an issue.
Skellig Gra
Member
Yeah, I grew up in/around NYC and lived there up until recently. I've never been pick pocketed. That doesn't mean people don't take advantage of stupid tourists. That was actually my original point. It happens in every major city.
Edit: I think in general this is what happens when people who aren't used to city life spend time in a city. Whereas we'd see all the scam artists as just white noise to ignore, other less savvy people let themselves get sucked in.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Skellig Gra
Member
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