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[Doctoglethorpe]

It's not a hybrid. It's rendered in 3D, it has 3 dimensions, so it's a 3D game, as simple as that. It has nothing to do with 2D.

People who don't get that need to look up the meaning of the word.

There's more than just dimension that differentiates the types of Mario games. Level structure and controls are just as big of a deal, if not more so. And theres no debating that 3D World uses a predominately Mario Bros (aka 2D) level structure and control system.

Indeed, to put it crudely, stars vs flagpoles.

And clearly the idea behind 3D World was to make a Mario Bro's game in 3D, not a conventional 3D Super Mario collectathon game.

 

[Lynx_7]

Because it's disingenuous. If someone says "the goal is just getting to the flagpole or beating a boss" for 3D World, that's justified because that's what it is. It sometimes throws twists at you, but in general, that's the formula. Saying "64, all you're doing is getting stars" is reductive of the fact that you get the stars for doing tasks, like having to demonstrate a mastery of advanced SM64 techniques to get to a star, or having to beat a boss, or having to collect eight red coins, or having to collect 100 coins, or having to clear 5 rings in the air, etc. It's definitely not as complex as later titles were with objectives, but with few exceptions, there's no variations to the flagpole - it's almost always there, waiting for you at the end.

You're being just as disingenuous about 3D World, so I don't see your point.
You also beat bosses in 3D World. You have to "demonstrate mastery of advanced 3D World techniques" (how does that work, btw? I got 120 stars in 64 and I don't consider myself a particularly technical Mario 64 player) to get to the end of Champion Road, whatever that means. You have to solve puzzles in order to beat the ghost house levels (the one from, I believe world flower or something, specifically had me stuck for a while before I figured out what I had to do). You have to ride Plessie. You have to defeat all the enemies on-screen before the timer runs out. You have to explore to find the 3 green stars, and some green stars even require you to do a series of specific timed-challenges, while others are in the Captain Toad levels. Honestly, that looks a lot more varied and fun than "collect eight red coins" or get the penguim to get a star, which were some of the most filler and boring objectives of 64.

 

[rex]

Because people haven't realized that Nintendo has moved on from Super Mario 64 concepts since 2007.

Do you realize how many scenarios in galaxy are lifted directly from 64? The whole game is built off of concepts introduced in mario 64.

Theyv been vastly improved of course, and arrayed in a linear fashion, but the core gameplay of 64 and galaxy is essentially identical.

 

[Poona]

Because it is timed, just like 2d mario. They don't let you explore, you have to rush through it unlike the 3d mario games.

 

[Captain Europe]

It's definitely a hybrid of 2D Mario and 3D Mario. It's 3D Mario movement, moveset, and level design quirks married to 2D Mario mechanics and progression. The game is definitively a 3D Mario game but there's nothing wrong with calling it a hybrid, that's practically the whole point of the game, to hybridize the two formulas so that fans of either become acclimated to the other.

True, it's definitely a mix of the mechanics.

There's more than just dimension that differentiates the types of Mario games. Level structure and controls are just as big of a deal, if not more so. And theres no debating that 3D World uses a predominately Mario Bros (aka 2D) level structure and control system.

Indeed, to put it crudely, stars vs flagpoles.

And clearly the idea behind 3D World was to make a Mario Bro's game in 3D, not a conventional 3D Super Mario collectathon game.

Yeah I agree, it's definitely a mix of 2D and 3D Mario mechanics, which isn't a bad thing.

It's not a hybrid of dimensions, or 2.5D and such nonsense. Not that you're saying that, but plenty of people are.

 

[GuessMyUserName]

Because it is timed, just like 2d mario. They don't let you explore, you have to rush through it unlike the 3d mario games.

has anyone ever died from a time-out in SM3DW?

serious question

 

[xaszatm]

has anyone ever died from a time-out in SM3DW?

serious question

On the extremely short timer levels...but since that's the point of those levels...

 

[BGBW]

Because it is timed, just like 2d mario. They don't let you explore, you have to rush through it unlike the 3d mario games.

Where's the timer in Super Mario Bros 2 (USA)?

 

[Lynx_7]

has anyone ever died from a time-out in SM3DW?

serious question

Are we counting the "speedrun" levels? Because I have.

Specially when trying to get stamps and green stars at the same time.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

You are right, but I always felt the 3D World difference is the more lazy way for a 3D Mario, not JUST a different approach to the series since Nintendo wants to save money because WiiU is failing.

Does that make it less true than other 3D Marios? No. But it sure does leave a bitter taste, I mean if you take a closer look at the games Galaxy/Sunshine and 64 are clearly more ambitious and expensive to make if you don't include the development cost for the HD graphics.

Lazy haha. Right. I would never call anything by EAD Tokyo lazy. But consider this fact. There are far more unique levels in 3D World, with only Mushroom and Flower worlds repeating content, while the Galaxy games have loads of recycled content with "challenges" in the form of prankster comets that have you repeating tasks you've already done, repeating minigames, and "secret" stars that have you retraversing old ground. And LOL about Galaxy and Sunshine being more expensive to make "not counting development costs for HD graphics." You are basically admitting that 3D World WAS the most expensive Mario game to make, and it undoubtedly was, and had more staff working on it than any other Mario game. Yeah, sure was lazy and cheap of Nintendo.

 

[dickroach]

has anyone ever died from a time-out in SM3DW?

serious question

that 100-second level with the unlimited-coin-box at the end. I died there like 10 times because I'm a greedy sonofabitch

 

[spekkeh]

This line of thought doesn't make any sense to me. These elements weren't tacked on to an existing 3D Mario formula, a new formula for 3D Mario was built around those things, I don't see how they're a 'detriment to the final game' like someone just took Mario 64 level design and slapped that shit onto it. They work well within the context of the kind of games 3D Land and World set out to be - platformers in the classic vein where you're expected to continue moving forward and overcome more direct and less freeform platforming obstacles.

Of course when I'm making such assertions I'm comparing it to a hypothetical other Mario that doesn't actually exist. Taken in isolation, no we cannot say it is to a detriment. We can not really say anything except that this Mario exists.

I fully agree with your previous point though. SM3DW is definitely not lazy and meant as a bridge game. Sadly there was no need for bridge games at that time of the Wii U's life, but I fully understand why they tried it.

 

[Crayolan]

Because people have a ridiculous set definition in their heads for what defines a "true 3D Mario." Thankfully the people actually making the games aren't as set in their ways and can still deliver something different.

 

[Regulus Tera]

I genuinely enjoy how angry the run button makes people and hope they never remove it.

I think it's pretty pointless considering the same thing could be achieved solely through the analog stick, but I can see why they included it.

 

[EatinOlives]

On the other hand people are ignoring that the Galaxy series were already taking this direction, not that they are wrong, but Galaxy 2 feels like a smaller, more constructed 2D Mario.

I played Galaxy 2 for the first time just before playing SM3DW. The two are so similar in general structure and level design style that it definitely feels like they wanted to make a game like 3DW since before Galaxy 2. As a result it feels like G2 is like the first iteration of the "2D Mario formula in 3D" approach that 3DW ultimately perfected.

It's really quite weird having heard all the praise for Mario Galaxy 2 when that released and the subsequent criticisms for 3DW when it launched. "But it's linear!", so is Galaxy 2. "But fixed camera!", so does Galaxy 2. "But it has short levels!", so does Galaxy 2. "But it doesn't have a hub!", neither does Galaxy 2. "But it has a limited move set!", so does Galaxy 2. "But it's generally easier until the end + post-credits content!", so is Galaxy 2.

Seriously guys, go play Galaxy 2 again for a bit. You've been playing and enjoying 3D World 0.5 and you didn't even know it.

 

[Captain Europe]

I played Galaxy 2 for the first time just before playing SM3DW. The two are so similar in general structure and level design style that it definitely feels like they wanted to make a game like 3DW since before Galaxy 2. As a result it feels like G2 is like the first iteration of the "2D Mario formula in 3D" approach that 3DW ultimately perfected.

It's really quite weird having heard all the praise for Mario Galaxy 2 when that released and the subsequent criticisms for 3DW when it launched. "But it's linear!", so is Galaxy 2. "But fixed camera!", so does Galaxy 2. "But it has short levels!", so does Galaxy 2. "But it doesn't have a hub!", neither does Galaxy 2. "But it has a limited move set!", so does Galaxy 2. "But it's generally easier until the end + post-credits content!", so is Galaxy 2.

Seriously guys, go play Galaxy 2 again for a bit. You've been playing and enjoying 3D World 0.5 and you didn't even know it.

Exactly, people fall for aesthetics.

Space is cool, grass is NSMB.

Stars are in 64 so they're cool, flagpoles are in NSMB so they're bad.

Same for timer and run button.

People really hate NSMB.

 

[greycolumbus]

I genuinely enjoy how angry the run button makes people and hope they never remove it.

They can simply just give us the option of having button run or analog stick run.

 

[spekkeh]

Ok, maybe I'm an idiot but what in the living hell does expression play mean and how does it equal less play?

There are a number of different types of play. Social play, cognitive play, expressive and theater play, etc. I'm trying to find a scientific article but even though a number of my close colleagues are researching this, I always fail finding the right one, ahem. Eurogamer had a nice article about it though in relationship to Mario http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-04-12-what-made-super-mario-64-so-special

Mario games are typically play to learn. Honing motor and cognitive skills as you continuously and rapidly encounter new obstacles and abilities. What was always innately there I thought, but only really came to fruition in Mario 64 and onwards though, was play for self-expression. Triple jumping in a garden, climbing up a tree and backflipping off it, with no real purpose but to have a certain acrobatic theater play. For the sole purpose because it feels good to do. It's a kind of open-ended exploration play, discovering the kinetic properties of Mario and what you want to do with it. And like the exploration we know from discovering our own way, finding the path to the star, it's lost as timers are set and directions are curbed.

I'm not saying one is better than the other. The timers give more challenge and thus even more obstacle to hone your motor skills against. But me, I prefer the slightly more open ended and playful approach of "true" 3D Marios.

 

[PhilipDoesMatter]

It lacks personality. Only Champions Road is challenging. Main game is easy as hell.

 

[rex]

Except that Galaxy is exactly that, just with stars instead of flagpoles

And yet no one would say that mario 64s stars are the same as flagpoles. Why? It cant be just that

 

[Heroman]

It lacks personality. Only Champions Road is challenging. Main game is easy as hell.

Every 3d Mario game is easy.

 

[timetokill]

It's mostly ignorance at best, OP. Galaxy is for the most part an extremely linear game, with the worst levels in the Galaxy games being the "64-like" ones like Honeybloom Galaxy.

There's nothing lacking in scope or scale in 3D World. People are literally hung up on an aesthetic and a decision to put the camera in a generally fixed location, which -- GASP -- Galaxy's camera automatically does during all of its best platforming sections!

If they changed the flagpoles to stars, painted the background like space and let you swing the camera around at the expense of gameplay direction, it would be a worse game but also these people would miraculously consider it a "true" 3D Mario game.

The complaints are, and always have been, completely bizarre.

 

[Xun]

I genuinely enjoy how angry the run button makes people and hope they never remove it.

I actually really love the addition of the run button in a 3D Mario game.

I'd love to see it return.

 

[Skyzard]

The NSMB series has absolutely destroyed 3D Mario games in sales.

Not really on point. I was saying earlier NSMBU is one of my favourite games on wiiu. It's a different game though. Well, it should be.

3D world feels like I got robbed of the creativity in world design and the adventure from new 3D marios that I look for. And some of my favourite levels have nothing to do with it and are pure arcade (even in the galaxies, the floor that twists, the chocolate themed level - my favourite) but for the whole game to go without...AND be so easy unless you force challenges on yourself? fml.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You're being just as disingenuous about 3D World, so I don't see your point.
You also beat bosses in 3D World. You have to "demonstrate mastery of advanced 3D World techniques" (how does that work, btw? I got 120 stars in 64 and I don't consider myself a particularly technical Mario 64 player) to get to the end of Champion Road, whatever that means. You have to solve puzzles in order to beat the ghost house levels (the one from, I believe world flower or something, specifically had me stuck for a while before I figured out what I had to do). You have to ride Plessie. You have to defeat all the enemies on-screen before the timer runs out. You have to explore to find the 3 green stars, and some green stars even require you to do a series of specific timed-challenges, while others are in the Captain Toad levels. Honestly, that looks a lot more varied and fun than "collect eight red coins" or get the penguim to get a star, which were some of the most filler and boring objectives of 64.

In general, you don't need to use wall jumps to beat Super Mario 64. You don't need to do a lot of really technical things. Yet, the game offers you the opportunity to try these out.

 

[KidB]

It lacks personality. Only Champions Road is challenging. Main game is easy as hell.

Have you forgotten how easy both Galaxies were?

 

[Griss]

I genuinely enjoy how angry the run button makes people and hope they never remove it.

It doesn't make me angry but the 'delayed top-speed boost' thing does. It makes every long jump into this thing where you have to try to figure out the correct 'take off landing strip' to get up to 'boost run speed' before jumping.

Why not, you know, just tilt the stick to get to top run speed, like other 3D mario games? Why the need for the run button? Why the need for the delayed boost? 3D Land didn't have the boost and it was way better off for it.

Have you forgotten how easy both Galaxies were?

If you think 3D World is anywhere in the same ballpark of difficulty as the Galaxies then we're on different planets here. Many Galaxy levels really challenged me. Only two 3D world levels challenged me and the rest were pretty much ludicrously easy. Or wait, 3 levels including the rolling block one. That's it.

 

[A Link to the Past]

It doesn't make me angry but the 'delayed top-speed boost' thing does. It makes every long jump into this thing where you have to try to figure out the correct 'take off landing strip' to get up to 'boost run speed' before jumping.

Why not, you know, just tilt the stick to get to top run speed, like other 3D mario games? Why the need for the run button? Why the need for the delayed boost? 3D Land didn't have the boost and it was way better off for it.



If you think 3D World is anywhere in the same ballpark of difficulty as the Galaxies then we're on different planets here. Many Galaxy levels really challenged me. Only two 3D world levels challenged me and the rest were pretty much ludicrously easy. Or wait, 3 levels including the rolling block one. That's it.

Actually, I think 3D Land has a minor delayed speed boost.

 

[Solid Samus]

If you think 3D World is anywhere in the same ballpark of difficulty as the Galaxies then we're on different planets here. Many Galaxy levels really challenged me. Only two 3D world levels challenged me and the rest were pretty much ludicrously easy. Or wait, 3 levels including the rolling block one. That's it.

Galaxy 2 is one thing but Galaxy 1 is the easiest Mario game I've ever played, and by a fair margin.

 

[rex]

It's mostly ignorance at best, OP. Galaxy is for the most part an extremely linear game, with the worst levels in the Galaxy games being the "64-like" ones like Honeybloom Galaxy.

There's nothing lacking in scope or scale in 3D World. People are literally hung up on an aesthetic and a decision to put the camera in a generally fixed location, which -- GASP -- Galaxy's camera automatically does during all of its best platforming sections!

If they changed the flagpoles to stars, painted the background like space and let you swing the camera around at the expense of gameplay direction, it would be a worse game but also these people would miraculously consider it a "true" 3D Mario game.

The complaints are, and always have been, completely bizarre.

Again, the stars are just flagpoles argument. I dont get it. As i said above, why does this apply to galaxy, but not 64?

In 64 i complete a bunch of different gameplay challenges and im rewarded with a star. These challenges range from exploration, to collection, to boss fights, to puzzle solving, to, gasp, linear platforming challenges.

Smg is the same setup. Complete challenges, get stars. Or, as someone mentioned above, sometimes you get a star shooter and the game sends you off to a wholly separate, often thematically distinct challenge that typically has nothing to do with the task just completed.

Each planetoid is equal in length and content to about one 64 star. Each star in galaxy is worth about 4 or 5 stars from 64. But, the gameplay is basically identical. Smgs entire suite of scenario design is cribbed from the notes 64 put down twenty years ago. Even the mix between collection and actual platforming and the other gameplay types strikes me as probably pretty similar.

Smgs so called linear levels are nothing but a way to rapid fire sm64s core gameplay at the player without a lot of exploration or retreading of the same ground. Couple this to a massive improvement in scenario design and you have just made sm64s gameplay palatable to people who hated it while alieanating those who preffered the comparative freedom and sandboxey style of 64s overall structure and course layouts

But the fact remains that once you get to where you need to be in 64 scenarios unfold basically how they do in galaxy.

 

[EatinOlives]

If you think 3D World is anywhere in the same ballpark of difficulty as the Galaxies then we're on different planets here. Many Galaxy levels really challenged me. Only two 3D world levels challenged me and the rest were pretty much ludicrously easy. Or wait, 3 levels including the rolling block one. That's it.

We're on different planets indeed.

Like I mentioned before I played Galaxy 2 and 3DW back to back and the difficulty curve was more or less the same. Galaxy 1 was far easier than either one. If there was a difference in difficulty between G2 and 3DW it was negligible.

 

[ugly]

I think the clean artstyle combined with the isometric camera and 2d-esque control scheme with its run button put a lot of people off. Especially the art style.

 

[Dizzy]

It is a 3D Mario game, but its different style of camera (isometric and fixed, as opposed to ground-level and adjustable) puts some people off. Not me, though. Loved 3D World

I would guess that this is the answer.


It doesnt bother me though. I really enjoyed 3D World. Not quite as epic as SM64,but a step in the right direction after the mistake that was the Galaxy series.

 

[-MB-]

Anyone who thinks that way isn't a true Mario fan and should never be taken serious on any opinion regarding the Maerio games.

 

[LSauchelli]

I think the clean artstyle combined with the isometric camera and 2d-esque control scheme with its run button put a lot of people off. Especially the art style.

The art style is the best out of all the 3D Marios, it basically looks like the Super Mario World instruction manual.

 

[ChamplooJones]

It's a 3d Mario, and a damn fine one at that.

 

[Ansatz]

It's mainly the fixed camera perspective, but also the blocky level geometry (everything is made out of simple shapes, flat surfaces, right angles etc.) and the light-hearted tone. They want an immersive adventure, not a gamey obstacle course.

 

[Macka]

It isn't a 'true' 3D Mario game in the sense that it's clearly in a different style to the previous 3D Mario games. People obviously aren't arguing that the game isn't 3D, just that they wanted something in the same style of 64/Sunshine/Galaxy. Dunno how this needs explaining.

 

[Heroman]

It isn't a 'true' 3D Mario game in the sense that it's clearly in a different style to the previous 3D Mario games. People obviously aren't arguing that the game isn't 3D, just that they wanted something in the same style of 64/Sunshine/Galaxy. Dunno how this needs explaining.

As other have galaxy especially galaxy 2 are more like 3d sorld than 64.

 

[Overside]

3d world is the TRUE mario game.

The adventure style games are the spinoffs that started with mario 64. The only people who would consider otherwise are ones who started with 3d gaming, but thats irrelevant, what they are trying to express is still perfectly clear.

And holy shit there are a ton of gaslighting assholes on this board.

Bull fucking shit you all cant tell why people would prefer one style over the other, they are designed completely differently.

"Just ignore those people telling you why they want something different even though this thing is good, dont listen to what they say, its just bullshit'.

Fuck you.

 

[Solid Samus]

It isn't a 'true' 3D Mario game in the sense that it's clearly in a different style to the previous 3D Mario games. People obviously aren't arguing that the game isn't 3D, just that they wanted something in the same style of 64/Sunshine/Galaxy. Dunno how this needs explaining.

Super Mario 64 isn't even a 'true' Mario game y'all

I put true in quotes because I clearly don't intend to use the actual dictionary definition of the word, just the connotations it brings

Although I'm pretty sure it's 'real'

I could be wrong tho, depends on what this week's definition of real is

 

[Kataploom]

As long as you move Mario in a 3D space (which means x, y and z axis), it is a REAL 3D Mario game, regarding the opinion of some oddly ofended people in internet.

 

[Entryhazard]

I played Galaxy 2 for the first time just before playing SM3DW. The two are so similar in general structure and level design style that it definitely feels like they wanted to make a game like 3DW since before Galaxy 2. As a result it feels like G2 is like the first iteration of the "2D Mario formula in 3D" approach that 3DW ultimately perfected.

It's really quite weird having heard all the praise for Mario Galaxy 2 when that released and the subsequent criticisms for 3DW when it launched. "But it's linear!", so is Galaxy 2. "But fixed camera!", so does Galaxy 2. "But it has short levels!", so does Galaxy 2. "But it doesn't have a hub!", neither does Galaxy 2. "But it has a limited move set!", so does Galaxy 2. "But it's generally easier until the end + post-credits content!", so is Galaxy 2.

Seriously guys, go play Galaxy 2 again for a bit. You've been playing and enjoying 3D World 0.5 and you didn't even know it.

Exactly, people fall for aesthetics.

Space is cool, grass is NSMB.

Stars are in 64 so they're cool, flagpoles are in NSMB so they're bad.

Same for timer and run button.

People really hate NSMB.

The perfect summation of the thread

 

[rjc571]

Where's the timer in Super Mario Bros 2 (USA)?

It doesn't have one because it's secretly a 3D Mario, duh!

 

[Zocano]

I don't consider galaxy as a natural progression from 64 and Sunshine, either. I'm still waiting on a sequel and hopefully I'll get it soon. Neither have been topped among the Mario games and I really wish they'd get away from the small bite sized level structure.

3D World and Galaxy were okay but didn't even come close to what I wanted as a followup 3D Mario.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

I haven't played Super Mario 3D World but, to me, it always seemed like a natural evolution for the sidescrolling series to take, adapting the fixed camera and applying it to a 3D stage to allow for more variety in the stages because, unlike say Mario 64, the stages aren't built around multiple goals.

 

[evilromero]

has anyone ever died from a time-out in SM3DW?

serious question

There's not enough to do in a level to run out of time. Or rather worth your time messing with. They're pretty linear focused levels.

 

[protomouse]

It is. SM64 and Sunshine are their own thing. To argue that 3D World is not a "true" 3D Mario, you'd have to argue that Galaxy 1 and 2 also are not "true" 3D Marios. It doesn't really matter whether the end goal is a flag or a star.

because you can't see the back of the cube

Best thread in a long while.

 

[Entryhazard]

And yet no one would say that mario 64s stars are the same as flagpoles. Why? It cant be just that

Again, the stars are just flagpoles argument. I dont get it. As i said above, why does this apply to galaxy, but not 64?

In 64 i complete a bunch of different gameplay challenges and im rewarded with a star. These challenges range from exploration, to collection, to boss fights, to puzzle solving, to, gasp, linear platforming challenges.

Smg is the same setup. Complete challenges, get stars. Or, as someone mentioned above, sometimes you get a star shooter and the game sends you off to a wholly separate, often thematically distinct challenge that typically has nothing to do with the task just completed.

Each planetoid is equal in length and content to about one 64 star. Each star in galaxy is worth about 4 or 5 stars from 64. But, the gameplay is basically identical. Smgs entire suite of scenario design is cribbed from the notes 64 put down twenty years ago. Even the mix between collection and actual platforming and the other gameplay types strikes me as probably pretty similar.

Smgs so called linear levels are nothing but a way to rapid fire sm64s core gameplay at the player without a lot of exploration or retreading of the same ground. Couple this to a massive improvement in scenario design and you have just made sm64s gameplay palatable to people who hated it while alieanating those who preffered the comparative freedom and sandboxey style of 64s overall structure and course layouts

But the fact remains that once you get to where you need to be in 64 scenarios unfold basically how they do in galaxy.

Because 64 (and Sunshine) are not linear as Galaxy (and 2). You can in general choose which stage play and in that stage some Stars do not need to get collected in a set order. Galaxy is a huge railroad in that regard, in a set galaxy you have to get the stars in that order and the planets to reach that one are rooms that need to be cleared in sequence. Basically if you "unfold" the planets into planes and substitutes the launch stars with pipes (maybe transparent), you get 3D world, and the fact that the flow is analogous is because of that.

Mario 64 and Sunshine throw you in a stage area that is rather ample and there are modifications/events based on which chapter is active, and you have to get to the Star / Shine Sprite in a free way although usually there is a predetermined path the game does make it less obvious and sometimes there are interesting ways to complete those areas, plus some secret star like the 100 coins one that requires you to sweep the entire place.

Galaxy does not have this exploration, the planets are limited in size with only an handful of connections and are flat (spheres are still bidimensional surfaces) with little room to vertical gameplay.

Galaxy and 2 are a lot more closer to 3D Land and World than they are to 64 and Sunshine.

 

[bomma_man]

it's the same reason why - according to members of the tea party - new yorkers and californians aren't 'real americans': they need to distort reality to fit their dumb arse narrative.