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Why is the US so bad at video games?
- Thread starter Opiate
- Start date
As cultural differences, USA\EU\JPN views videogames as an extension in the medium of literature, that is, an art form. (Not that literature can't be hard: Reading Nietzche is definitely at a different difficulty than reading Harry Potter, with no disrespect meant for either)
KR (and CH), on the other hand, is more focused on the branch of the video-games that do not come as an extension of the literature medium, but of the sports activity.
There's no being 'bad' at single-players games, at worst there's being slow, just like there's no being 'bad' at watching movies or reading books.
Since there's no being bad, there's no innate interest in not being 'bad'.
In the realm of sports-derived videogaming, even if EU+US+JPN makes up, by a mile, the lion's share of the videogaming market, upon considering the sports-derived fraction of videogames, that is, the competitive part, the advantage gets much, much smaller.
Different conceptions of videogaming explain KR's incredible performance in basically all competetitive games, added to the fact that physical sports are much bigger in US\EU than in KR.
For America only, it's lack of opportunity and social stigma. Try saying to your parents "I want to be a pro gamer" in different regions, and i assume the median reaction would be this:
US: Stop wasting time and get a career
EU: If you're really, really sure that's what will make you happy, and you can live on it, go ahead;
KR: Sure thing, why not.
(Disclaimer: I'm in EU, Italy to be precise, i've got two friends currently trying to become pro gamers, and both their families are pretty supportive. My own father once told me that if i wanted to take an off year trying to become a pro gamer, that'd be no problem. Anecdotal evidence and all that, but the attitude towards 'Chasing your dreams' is pretty lax in the Old Continent, even if said dreams are videogaming; I suppose it's not exactly the same in the USA, due to universities not being free (or nearly so), lack of social nets and all that)
KR (and CH), on the other hand, is more focused on the branch of the video-games that do not come as an extension of the literature medium, but of the sports activity.
There's no being 'bad' at single-players games, at worst there's being slow, just like there's no being 'bad' at watching movies or reading books.
Since there's no being bad, there's no innate interest in not being 'bad'.
In the realm of sports-derived videogaming, even if EU+US+JPN makes up, by a mile, the lion's share of the videogaming market, upon considering the sports-derived fraction of videogames, that is, the competitive part, the advantage gets much, much smaller.
Different conceptions of videogaming explain KR's incredible performance in basically all competetitive games, added to the fact that physical sports are much bigger in US\EU than in KR.
For America only, it's lack of opportunity and social stigma. Try saying to your parents "I want to be a pro gamer" in different regions, and i assume the median reaction would be this:
US: Stop wasting time and get a career
EU: If you're really, really sure that's what will make you happy, and you can live on it, go ahead;
KR: Sure thing, why not.
(Disclaimer: I'm in EU, Italy to be precise, i've got two friends currently trying to become pro gamers, and both their families are pretty supportive. My own father once told me that if i wanted to take an off year trying to become a pro gamer, that'd be no problem. Anecdotal evidence and all that, but the attitude towards 'Chasing your dreams' is pretty lax in the Old Continent, even if said dreams are videogaming; I suppose it's not exactly the same in the USA, due to universities not being free (or nearly so), lack of social nets and all that)
jim-jam bongs
Member
Must have been a faulty timer.
Cerillos de las maquinitas de farmacia/tortillería/tiendita no se acaben.Mexico is only good at KOF, and we were beaten by Korea last year. EVO can't come soon enough
Brazilians are insanely good at KOF as well, been destroyed by all of them in KOF 13 PSN. American players are good, and at least I can hold off a fight against them, Brazilians though? Holy shit.
I think he means people don't even see it as even in the same ball park. I don't even see it as in the same ball park.
It's kind of what you are saying but I don't think 'respect level' is really exactly his point although that's part of it for sure.
redmetal86
Member
All those top 8 results for SF4. At least we're better than Canada.
Don't kill me CanadaGAF.
Hmm, good question actually. How is a country as a whole better or worse at games? Maybe people don't take competitive gaming as seriously here. I personally game for entertainment, I don't strive to be the best, so I'll never be the best. You have to be willing to put forth the time and effort to improve , I guess people in this country overall aren't doing this.
I can absolutely relate to that, actually got into a huge argument with someone late last year over how lame it was to actually value being good at games (among many other things).
They seem to see competition as not being a "pure" reason for enjoying games which I think is really stupid, as if there is such a thing... Competition is a big part of human nature and so many of the things we enjoy are born from it.
It's not cool to try to better yourself or to want to compete in alot of circles. I respect people who play games for multitudes of reasons, I play games for many different reasons myself and competition is just one of them.
I just think most people here are still ashamed of playing games, it's this closet secret and if you do admit to it then you better downplay that fact. It's complete nonsense, people spend how many hours on their couch just watching TV passively?
Probably getting off topic but I find the subject pretty fascinating!
It isn't and they don't. How many people spectate sports like basketball vs video gaming. How many schools in the US have robust _anything_ associated with video games versus basketball or other sports. It's on a completely different level. Saying they're both games in the technical definition borders being intentionally obtuse about the night and day differences in how they're viewed and treated.
Vespasianus
Banned
Do you know if the US or Europe spends more per capita on games than Japan or Asia?
Overall, we spend more, yeah. But the fact is that Canada and the United States have a population of 380 million while Japan has a population of 120 million or so. It would be pretty surprising if we did NOT spend more overall with that massive a population disparity.
In any case, I don't see why you think that gaming as a hobby is somehow inextricably linked to gaming as a "career", ie competitive gaming.
You seem to be making the unfounded and false assumption that if someone is interested in games as a hobby in their free time they are automatically interested in it as a career.
The fact that my friends and I play a pickup round of soccer does not mean that we are going to devote our lives to trying to become the best at it. The fact that we swim after work for exercise does not mean we are trying to become the next Michael Phelps.
I have always been interested in games for fun, and of course competing with my friends, but never in the "competitive" gaming sense. Especially because I'm not a fan of any of the games or genres in which the competitive scenes are currently focused. I play World of Tanks occasionally with my friends for fun. But if you told me to practice World of Tanks for 12 hours a day to try and get in the next GOMTV invitational I would rather shoot myself.
I've never viewed "being good at games" as something to brag about or put on my resume. "I beat Dark Souls at Level 1, that's a life achievement, right?" Not to me. If it is to you, great, go have fun competing. But don't assume your priorities are universal, because they aren't.
iconoclast
Member
Great post, dog$. I agree with pretty much everything you said. Most Americans simply do not have the desire/passion/motivation/determination/fortitude/whatever word you want to use to become a top player in their game of choice. I think this is partly because of the environment: In Japan, you can go to an arcade that has its own community of people who are willing to sink thousands of hours (and dollars) into a game, seeking to push their skills to the limit. When these people compete against, observe, and interact with one another, it helps them improve more rapidly. This type of atmosphere does not exist in America because out communities exist entirely online. The Internet is great, but it's all very isolated and impersonal, making it hard to find that same competitive spirit.
I wish I wasn't so bad at writing because I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, it's just hard for me to put everything into one coherent post. That's about the best I can do. ;~;
In general, Japan is lightyears ahead of the entire western world when it comes to arcade games, especially in the most competitive genres: fighting, shooting, rhythm, and puzzle.
http://mtlayk.web.fc2.com/Top/TopFr.htm
http://cowboy.ikaruga.co.uk/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=147
http://arcade-extreme.forumfree.it/?t=48529048
Finding a WR set by a westerner is like finding a needle in a haystack.
I wish I wasn't so bad at writing because I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, it's just hard for me to put everything into one coherent post. That's about the best I can do. ;~;
In general, Japan is lightyears ahead of the entire western world when it comes to arcade games, especially in the most competitive genres: fighting, shooting, rhythm, and puzzle.
http://mtlayk.web.fc2.com/Top/TopFr.htm
http://cowboy.ikaruga.co.uk/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=147
http://arcade-extreme.forumfree.it/?t=48529048
Finding a WR set by a westerner is like finding a needle in a haystack.
I'm curious what part of the US you live in. I've literally never met a person here that thinks of Basketball and Video games as interchangeable sports, or thinks of Basketball players as gamers.
I get where you're going with them both being called games. You've definitely exhausted that explanation, but you're being disingenuous if you're implying that the US considers them a similar or even equal activity.
The gulf in pay among the highest level competitors is enormous, and we certainly don't train kids from little league to college for e sports.
rohlfinator
Member
Great point. Competitive PC gamers tend to spend much more on hardware than the games themselves.
thesolidshark
Member
I wouldn't say we're bad at video games, though arguments about some games becoming easier/more streamlined for the NA/American audiences can have a point. Competitively, we might be lower tier in certain genres, but bad suggests we can't even finish some games we play, even if we tried.
Anyway...
Speaking only from a fighters standpoint, this is a great post. Communities make all the difference, and the circumstances that create them. Japan having nearly half the U.S.'s population in a space smaller than California means a world of difference, in online infastructure, keeing arcades alive, and especially attending tournaments.
People at SRK used to talk about a dark age of fighters in the 2000's, when fighters were still being released; I somehow doubt Japan ever had a dark age. Someone from Tokyo also once told me Japanese players play the systems more than the characters, which can explain why they might pick top-tier characters so often.
And the time Kurosu came over and beat several prominent Marvel 3 players serves as a small and funny reminder - "if other countries started taking Marvel nearly as seriously as we do, would the US still be on top?"
Also, have to ask, but what's the spectatorship like in other countries, for any genre? For the American fighting game genre, I actually think things like stream monsters builds and hurts the US scene, but hurts more because there are people watching and cheering but not learning from it or playing afterwards. Sometimes it's a case of no one else in their area plays a game they play, but if they do have local comp, do they level up together with all the info available? I only wish I could confidently say the answer was yes, but I can't.
Anyway...
Speaking only from a fighters standpoint, this is a great post. Communities make all the difference, and the circumstances that create them. Japan having nearly half the U.S.'s population in a space smaller than California means a world of difference, in online infastructure, keeing arcades alive, and especially attending tournaments.
People at SRK used to talk about a dark age of fighters in the 2000's, when fighters were still being released; I somehow doubt Japan ever had a dark age. Someone from Tokyo also once told me Japanese players play the systems more than the characters, which can explain why they might pick top-tier characters so often.
And the time Kurosu came over and beat several prominent Marvel 3 players serves as a small and funny reminder - "if other countries started taking Marvel nearly as seriously as we do, would the US still be on top?"
Also, have to ask, but what's the spectatorship like in other countries, for any genre? For the American fighting game genre, I actually think things like stream monsters builds and hurts the US scene, but hurts more because there are people watching and cheering but not learning from it or playing afterwards. Sometimes it's a case of no one else in their area plays a game they play, but if they do have local comp, do they level up together with all the info available? I only wish I could confidently say the answer was yes, but I can't.
Vespasianus
Banned
Exactly. The lowest paid NHL player makes 500k a year, and if I recall correctly the best paid SCII player in the world made something like 300k.
http://www.sc2earnings.com/
Not to mention that SCII player can't count on being on top or even a top contender for more than a year tops. That's not really a career. Hell, "Nestea" is the third highest on that list of top paid SCII pros, and I'm pretty sure he hasn't been considered a champion contender for months.
PastorOfMuppets
Banned
My theory is poker:
America is widely considered to have the best poker players. If you're good at most video games, you have a lot of potential for poker and you can make a lot more money playing poker than you can playing video games. Some ex-gamers turned pro poker players: Elky Grospelier (Starcraft), Hevad Khan (Marvel vs Capcom), Randy Lew (Street Fighter). So why put your time and effort and money into learning how to optimally play a video game that a) Might not ever become popular on the E-sports scene (Painkiller) or b) You can put the same amount of effort into playing poker and make a lot more money in the long run? There is no long run in E-sports, how long can you expect to play Starcraft for and make a decent amount of money? There are people in poker who have played and making money since 2001 - when Poker Stars (the largest online site) went live.
Poker over the last decade has attracted a lot of people that used to: daytrade, play professional Magic the Gathering, be pro gamers, play sports, play competitive chess. What game has that kind of pull going today?
America is widely considered to have the best poker players. If you're good at most video games, you have a lot of potential for poker and you can make a lot more money playing poker than you can playing video games. Some ex-gamers turned pro poker players: Elky Grospelier (Starcraft), Hevad Khan (Marvel vs Capcom), Randy Lew (Street Fighter). So why put your time and effort and money into learning how to optimally play a video game that a) Might not ever become popular on the E-sports scene (Painkiller) or b) You can put the same amount of effort into playing poker and make a lot more money in the long run? There is no long run in E-sports, how long can you expect to play Starcraft for and make a decent amount of money? There are people in poker who have played and making money since 2001 - when Poker Stars (the largest online site) went live.
Poker over the last decade has attracted a lot of people that used to: daytrade, play professional Magic the Gathering, be pro gamers, play sports, play competitive chess. What game has that kind of pull going today?
DidntKnowJack
Member
Where are you getting your information from?
And why is everyone taking the premise of this thread at face value? I didn't read the entire thread, but I did read a lot of it, but what is any of this based on?
And how the fuck do you beat someone at WoW?
wakajawaka
Member
I think that for the most part it's just matter of how attractive is being a pro gamer in each country is. In some countries the money and status you win is much more than others.
The more people who dream of being a pro gamer, the better pro gamers a country is gonna have. Of course there are gonna be a lot of other factors, but I think this is the biggest.
The more people who dream of being a pro gamer, the better pro gamers a country is gonna have. Of course there are gonna be a lot of other factors, but I think this is the biggest.
Lord Azrael
Member
Wow there's some really interesting discussion going on in here. Love reading this stuff.
I was under the impression that the US side of Pokemon was quite well developed considering the reputation of Smogon and Ray Rizzo's threepeat. However, if Japan really did get screwed over the past few years like you're saying then I'm really curious to see how the next few championships go down.
Could you expand on this a bit? I'm not huge on competitive Pokemon but I do follow it to an extent, and this is very interesting to me. Do you know anything about how the US metagame compares to the one in Japan? I remember seeing the Japanese tier list for 4th gen and thinking it was very odd, with weird bans like Dugtrio. What's the general play-style over there?
I was under the impression that the US side of Pokemon was quite well developed considering the reputation of Smogon and Ray Rizzo's threepeat. However, if Japan really did get screwed over the past few years like you're saying then I'm really curious to see how the next few championships go down.
xxjuicesxx
Member
Capitalism. If a game is too tough, developers destroy the skillgap so everyone can play it. This = more sales! GO BIG BUSINESS.
Halo 1 was carving men out of wood. Halo 4 is randy mcnubsluts bk village special ADHD endorphin release time of +10.
We really are great but we lack focus and discipline.
We also dont place enough emphasis on winning. Participation trophies everywhere, but Halo 4 doesnt even have a friggen ranking system. They patched in a internet only version which is laughable and really bad kids who are barely practiced can hit the top. Its honestly embarrassing.
Halo 1 was carving men out of wood. Halo 4 is randy mcnubsluts bk village special ADHD endorphin release time of +10.
We really are great but we lack focus and discipline.
We also dont place enough emphasis on winning. Participation trophies everywhere, but Halo 4 doesnt even have a friggen ranking system. They patched in a internet only version which is laughable and really bad kids who are barely practiced can hit the top. Its honestly embarrassing.
I specifically stated (now repeatedly) that Basketball players enjoy more respect than Starcraft 2 players in the US. I just stated that I don't know anyone who is unaware that basketball is a game.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Well I know less about mario kart and Pokemon and can really only speak to the research I've looked into on esports, but the key part in what i quoted he said was in the "lack of spectators" part. The interest of the gaming audience and larger non gaming audience who WATCHES the sport is the money driver, it starts there, matures, and then companies will look to monetize that and that brings cash flow to support and cultivate talent (this is just finally starting to get scale recently) The first level there is lacking in the US, and it trickles downward. Always follows the dollars and the ROI
Raid progression.
As far as where he's getting this from: If you pay attention to any competitive games at all (which you may not, and that's fine) you'll see that the US teams do tend to get beat/knocked out a lot by non-US teams. It certainly seems like the US is behind the curve as far as the competitive gaming scene goes.
It's nothing to be truly upset about (unless you're on one of the US competitive teams), there doesn't need to be any "Well we're best at <x>" (which isn't what we're talking about anyway). It is what it is.
I don't think it's just about being a pro gamer or doing it as a career. Look at Japan playing Shoot Em Ups, they don't gain ANYTHING material from it but they seem to love "mastering" games in general over there.
Nothing beats the feeling of nailing that perfect run in a super difficult game and seeing your name on top of the list. How is that NOT fun?
Certain cultures seem to value pushing themselves more than others. Here you're almost laughed at for trying, it makes lazy people uncomfortable I guess.
Skull Leader
Banned
I think you did a pretty good job summing it up, for what its worth
All across the US, arcades are either closing down or having their games switched out with more casual experiences (and I'm not using casual as an insult). Arcades are INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT to a competitive fighting games community. It's a public gathering space where you can actually see your opponent, chat with like-minded individuals, and get some actual learning and training done. Iconoclast mentions how it works in Japan, and it WAS for a time how things worked in the US.
Online gaming allows for anonymity, and unfortunately that tends to make people a lot braver about what they do and say. Playing FPS on Xbox Live or PSN is an exercise in frustration, given how some members of those communities act. As for fighters, hell I don't think I've ever played a fighting game online and have felt completely satisfied with how latency has affected a match. Some games just require too much precision to really work 'right' online, which further frustrates people trying to actually compete. Fighting games, silly as it might sound, are really best played among friends and rivals in actual close proximity. I think they do more to encourage social gaming than people give them credit for.
Here's an anecdotal sad story that is probably too long: In the early 90s I could hit up arcades and find rows of fighting games at my chosen hangout spot, with the more expensive machines being found at a place called Scandia. I don't know exactly when it started, but eventually the fighting games started getting replaced with ticket-machines, token games, claw-grabbers to pick up stuffed dolls or the expensive portable devices buried among them. Fewer fighters could be found. The Neo Geo machines got removed. More floor space got dedicated to music games like DDR or Beatmania.
Nowadays, you can't even find modern fighters represented in my city. If I want to go play SF4 in an arcade against skilled players, I actually need to plan an all day roadtrip to drive two or three hours out of town to find a decent arcade. If I want to drive farther, I might be able to make it to Sunnyvale, the place Where It All Started according to some folks. And even these arcades have started to see the same things that happened to Scandia, at a thankfully slower pace.
Vespasianus
Banned
Like others said, it's not so much the simple fact that Basketball players are respected, it's the fact that the two are not even comparable. They're not in the same league.
Basketball players are elite athletes held in high regard in the US. A Starcraft II player likely wouldn't have any respect or admiration from the average American. That said, the only country in the world where a SCII player might be held in high esteem by the average person is Korea, and even then I think only a minority of the citizens would know or care who the top SCII players were.
We're talking about the difference between household names like Michael Phelps and "MVP" or "MC". Everyone has heard of the former, virtually noone has heard of the latter.
This is true. I have a friend who is an excellent gamer and has played all his life. He's never even mentioned playing video games for money, but he's good enough at Poker that he told me he thinks of casinos as ATM machines.
Aside from the obvious downsides (fairly low pay unless you're #1, effects on social life etc) it can't be considered a career for more than a few years. So somebody is making 500k a year playing SC2. How long will that last? I don't think many are willing to give up a real career for the chance at becoming one of the best gamers in the country for such a tiny payday.
Yes they are. I mean, this is not a disputable fact. They are both games. Literally.
One enjoys more respect than the other, I completely agree with that. I don't see what the problem is here. It's as if you want to factually distinguish the two, when that is invalid and wrong. Factually -- literally -- the two are quite comparable, even if US perception is that one is more respectable than the other.
Both Starcraft 2 and Basketball are competitive games of skill. One is enjoyed and respected by more people than the other in the US, absolutely agreed. Just as Curling is also a game and enjoys (probably?) even less respect in the US than Starcraft 2.
Infrastructure and culture. I know in Korea, competitive gaming is like the ultimate rags to riches profession because even the poorest of people can afford to play games all day at a PC cafe and because of that, gaming is viewed as a lucrative job path. Once people get their way into the pro scene, they also have coaches and analysts to help them perform at peak levels.
I can't speak for every competitive gaming scene, but I know in the U.S. LoL scene, many teams don't have dedicated coaches and analysts and generally, only the players are paid. Meanwhile, Korean teams often have a full staff of a manager (who handles logisitics), coach (who helps players develop and mature) and analysts (who help devise strategies and break down the opponents). So in the U.S., a LoL team consists of six people (5 players + 1 general manager), in Korea, a team consists of 10+ people in some instances.
I can't speak for every competitive gaming scene, but I know in the U.S. LoL scene, many teams don't have dedicated coaches and analysts and generally, only the players are paid. Meanwhile, Korean teams often have a full staff of a manager (who handles logisitics), coach (who helps players develop and mature) and analysts (who help devise strategies and break down the opponents). So in the U.S., a LoL team consists of six people (5 players + 1 general manager), in Korea, a team consists of 10+ people in some instances.
You're talking about how the dictionary treats them, not how society treats them. Two completely different things. I think you're being intentionally obtuse at this point.
Ok? I think I specifically mentioned that I understood that part, since you apparently think it's confusing enough to explain several times.
But I'm not sure anyone but you is talking about respect. Sports and Video Games are simply not interchangeable as you'd like to believe. I honestly don't know where you got that idea. Are you saying that in other countries they are interchangeable?
Oh, never mind. You apparently do think they are completely comparable.
Interesting. I guess that's where you and the rest of the country seem to disagree.
Am I taking crazy pills here?
I specifically, explicitly, and repeatedly stated that one game enjoys more respect than the other game in the US. What are you looking for here?
Subjectively, I agree, people view them differently. One game is more respected than the other. Objectively -- as in, fact based, or "dictionary based" -- they are both simply games of skill. Which part of that do you disagree with?
Edit: Read my above post.
wakajawaka
Member
Yeah there's some of it, you are absolutely right. But I am answering the question in the OT understanding it is strictly related to pro gaming.
If you talk about gaming in general, then yes, it's definitely culture differences.
For your average joe, totally agree with that. Nothing wrong with that either.
For our e-sports/competitive teams, there's somethin else going on there.
This is actually a very fascinating discussion, but marred by a lot of dismissive posts.
But really, I think video games are viewed far more as 'entertainment' in the US rather than competitive grounds. It seems the vast majority of the time, consumers want a story, a ride, a cool ending, then they put it away just like a movie or a book. A much smaller portion of consumers view their games as a place for competition.
The franchise development head of Halo basically said 80% of people who buy Halo play the campaign and never play multiplayer. They consume it as a story or movie, then put it away.
Also, as many people have said "competitive video gaming" is generally seen derisively in the US, compared to "real sports"; regardless of the fact they are all "games played competitively". Not to mention the whole money aspect, video gaming payouts are too small, because the audience is small; you can't live off of video gaming unless you are the very best.
But really, I think video games are viewed far more as 'entertainment' in the US rather than competitive grounds. It seems the vast majority of the time, consumers want a story, a ride, a cool ending, then they put it away just like a movie or a book. A much smaller portion of consumers view their games as a place for competition.
The franchise development head of Halo basically said 80% of people who buy Halo play the campaign and never play multiplayer. They consume it as a story or movie, then put it away.
Also, as many people have said "competitive video gaming" is generally seen derisively in the US, compared to "real sports"; regardless of the fact they are all "games played competitively". Not to mention the whole money aspect, video gaming payouts are too small, because the audience is small; you can't live off of video gaming unless you are the very best.
Seems like fighting games is where we're strongest (compared to other games/genres, not other countries necessarily) as far as popular competitive scenes go
.la1n
Member
Personally I am amazing at them all so I'm not sure what the rest of the United States problem is. On a more serious note, I think it can be attributed to consumer mentality, more games available at one time and less dedication to each individual one. I noticed a decline in my abilities with fighters when I focus on too many at a time. If I wanted to still compete competitively I would need a lot of time and focus on just one title.
I have also noticed a lot of gamers need instant satisfaction, difficulty is not seen as a reason to improve but instead a reason to disregard the game entirely.
I have also noticed a lot of gamers need instant satisfaction, difficulty is not seen as a reason to improve but instead a reason to disregard the game entirely.
Fighting games are definitely the US' strongest suit, but even then we are not the strongest, just not the worst.
We are the worst in MMOs, MOBAs, and RTS, however. Combine all these fields, and I'm not sure how the conclusion is escapable, but I am willing to listen to counterarguments.
soulassssns
Banned
Except the skills required to compete in them couldn't be more different.
You can keep pointing to the dictionary, but you're arguing a view that people from the US are saying is peculiar. I'm not saying you're wrong, but rather than continually repeating yourself maybe you could try to explain why you feel they are completely comparable, despite the required skills being completely different.
WoW had a scene for a while. It was part of IEM IIRC. I think it was 3v3 or something. I remember this because two kids on American WoW teams snapped and started throwing their gear and bashing their team mates two IEMs in a row. Must have been back in '07 or possibly '08.
Probably because they're still competitive games regardless of the required skill set.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Allow me to jump in a second, because I do enjoy this conversation. Lets assume for a minute that my last couple posts are accurate, key factors to answer the initial question posed. (Which isn't really a stretch). Now, I'm not saying this to "/end thread," but to help refocus and shape the debate. A few people are on to something, but I think what's worth discussing is another question... "Why do Americans, at large, not enjoy watching videogame tournaments?"
It's a simple question, but it literally is the million dollar one. To use the current example, what's so appealing about other popular sports, such as basketball, that isn't in gaming that people prefer one over the other? How do companies insert these factors into their games and tournament structures to increase spectators? What's intrinsically appealing about ball sports to Americans that make it such a rich market to monetize vs gaming?
You solve this, crack that code, and you can cultivate a profitable market that would warrant creating minor leagues and sustainable talent pools to create the kind of talent that would eventually be competitive on a global scale. Skill and talent and social acceptance sure, it's all anxcillary factors, all relevant, but you can bet money that if someone came up with a way to get more people to WATCH Americans play games, we will create the talent to go toe to toe with anyone
It's a simple question, but it literally is the million dollar one. To use the current example, what's so appealing about other popular sports, such as basketball, that isn't in gaming that people prefer one over the other? How do companies insert these factors into their games and tournament structures to increase spectators? What's intrinsically appealing about ball sports to Americans that make it such a rich market to monetize vs gaming?
You solve this, crack that code, and you can cultivate a profitable market that would warrant creating minor leagues and sustainable talent pools to create the kind of talent that would eventually be competitive on a global scale. Skill and talent and social acceptance sure, it's all anxcillary factors, all relevant, but you can bet money that if someone came up with a way to get more people to WATCH Americans play games, we will create the talent to go toe to toe with anyone
They are games that can be played competitively. Basketball is a competitive game, Starcraft is a competitive game. That is all he is trying to say.
He isn't talking about the skills necessary.