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[flintstryker]

There's a online Pokémon Battle engine called Showdown which works pretty much exactly how Nintendo should make this if they did as you get to create your Pokémon relatively easily without the hassle of in game training. As for those saying it requires no skills I can only imagine you have not played a pokemon game competitively as an average player would get wreck online if they try to play like they would in the regular game.

 

[DrArchon]

Doesn't pokemon battling have an element of randomness to it?

Do any of the other popular esports games have that?

I know fighting games don't and I don't think stuff like DOTA or LOL do to my knowledge.

I mean, there are plenty of RNG elements in esports games. Just speaking from experience, DOTA has a bunch of abilities that are semi-random in nature, like random chances to stun/crit on hit, or chances to counter attack when hit.

Pokemon's RNG influences are just so much more pronounced than those in other games. Crits do absurd damage, status effects are completely crippling, speed ties determine who wins matchups, etc.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

It's turn based and so very easy and exciting to watch, understand and cast.

I can't think of a universe where I'd be excited to watch anyone play freaking Pokemon.

 

[Caronte]

Because it's fucking boring to watch.

 

[Vital Tundra]

Pacing.

 

[clemenx]

Gamefreak should also absolutely make Singles official. I don't get why VGC is Doubles only.

I do prefer Doubles but I don't see why thay can't both be viable.

 

[Azuran]

Gamefreak should also absolutely make Singles official. I don't get why VGC is Doubles only.

I do prefer Doubles but I don't see why thay can't both be viable.

Stall is too popular in Singles and kinda impossible to pull off in Doubles. That's why. Double is official because it takes around 10-15 turns to finish a battle which is around 20-45 minutes. You can't say the same about Singles.

Do you really want tournaments to take weeks to finish?

 

[DarkConfidant]

Same reason why we watch more football than we do chess.

It moves too slow. And it's a little too cute.

 

[Neoleo2143]

I can't think of a universe where I'd be excited to watch anyone play freaking Pokemon.

The difference between Multiplayer battles and Single player battles is pretty drastic. You often have game where players juggle numerous strategies and potential mind games. The variation due to skill is far superior to a game like say, Hearthstone.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Persona says hi.

Tokyo Mirage Sessions says hi.

Neither of those games is exciting to watch outside of a trailer or set of preview footage..

They're exciting to play.

The difference between Multiplayer battles and Single player battles is pretty drastic. You often have game where players juggle numerous strategies and potential mind games. The variation due to skill is far superior to a game like say, Hearthstone.

That's nice.

There are lots of games/sports that require high degrees of personal skill that aren't watched.

Why aren't they watched? Because they're boring as shit to your average audience.

 

[Hylian7]

It's incredibly exciting to watch if you know Pokemon. But that's the thing: You have to know Pokemon. Something like a fighting game is more accessible to watch since it's all real time.

I would say it's really knowing high-level Pokemon play. The average person that played Blue version one time isn't going to know why you need a 40 attack power move called Rapid Spin, or why weather moves are so critical to many setups.

 

[blakep267]

Isn't the metagame dominated by a small bunch of Pokemon? Also, IVs and the fact that most Pokemon are useless in competitive battles automatically disqualify it.

Yeah this is why I think it can't be. I remember in 2006 I signed up for the Pokemon world championships. I thought it was gonna be fun and see people with different and varying Pokemon and strategy. It turned out to be that people all used the same Pokemon, IVs, and used the same attacks. Use earthquake. Use explosion etc.

 

[Vital Tundra]

Gamefreak should also absolutely make Singles official. I don't get why VGC is Doubles only.

I do prefer Doubles but I don't see why thay can't both be viable.

Game is far more balanced with Doubles. Singles at the highest level play would be a disaster.

 

[clemenx]

Stall is too popular in Singles.

Do you really want tournaments to take weeks to finish?

I know. That's why I'm saying Gamefreak should DO something. It's the very same reason why I prefer doubles. They should be able to make both possible imo.

 

[Nazo]

Mostly because its boring as hell to watch. But what little I know about the competitive Pokemon scene it also seems really hard to get into. Most of the really popular e-sports are games that can be relatively simple to get into, it just takes some skill and a lot of practice. With Pokemon however, to be even kind of competitive you basically HAVE TO do stuff like EV training and other tedious stuff that I don't think most people are going to wan't to deal with just to be competitive. I can't speak of the balancing for the games but from what I'm seeing in this thread it doesn't seem great.

 

[Kyari]

It's boring to watch, most of the top players don't have legitimate Pokémon and none of them actively play the games beyond for prize money.

It's not exactly the kind of scene you can get behind a player for.

 

[saska]

There's are so many Pokemon, so many items, so many movesets and so much interesting pre-game preparation that goes into games that means it's far more skill based than a game like, say, Hearthstone.

Why would you want to watch any competitive game where the most interesting part happens before the actual match? Also the game is full of unnecessary bloat and complexity that makes the knowledge requirement for playing extremely high while the game itself feels relatively shallow. For these reasons, I personally think the game is not very good when played competitively. Though I only played 3rd gen (Netbattle) so i'm not sure if things have gotten any better.

E: added a point about the depth of the game.

 

[Fracas]

I like playing it with friends, but I can't take it that seriously. The absolute necessity of things like entry hazards dull it a lot for me.

 

[KelpPlankton]

It's not really balanced enough to be interesting to outsiders. And it's turn-based so it's not really exciting to watch.

If the game had a much larger pool of competitive pokemon and viable strategies it would help.

The other big problem? The official Pokemon twitch channel that streams all the events has chat disabled. People don't want to watch streams on twitch without the shared experience aspect, which removing the chat removes entirely. I'm sure the chat for Pokemon streams would be god awful but it's a big part of twitch viewership.

 

[Trey]

Randomness shouldn't be much of a factor, since people watch competitive poker as well.

it's a different kind of randomness. Poker is leveraging odds in high pressure situations directly against the people you're playing, which increases the intrigue for the viewer because they know what cards every one has, and they're waiting to see how the action plays out among people who don't have all the information.

there is nothing interesting about some dude's Pokemon losing because he got para hax three times in a row.

 

[Azuran]

I know. That's why I'm saying Gamefreak should DO something. It's the very same reason why I prefer doubles. They should be able to make both possible imo.

They keep trying like lowering the max amount of usable Pokemon to 3 bu that still doesn't help when you run into a Toxic Orb Gliscor that's going to Roost constantly as he slowly kills you with Toxic. As long as strategies like that are viable, Singles will never be official.

 

[The Hermit]

I onky enjoy watching fighting games. Its the perfect e-sport, because its way more relatable.

Hell, dota or lol matches gives me freaking migraines.

 

[Spikematic]

I'll never get why competitive is doubles. So boring. It should be singles with level 100 Pokémon. Also they should spend more time on balancing the game and use patches if needed like in mobas etc. And make training easier so the focus is on experimenting with different builds, not on leveling and that IV whatever crap.

 

[Neoleo2143]

Why would you want to watch any competitive game where the most interesting part happens before the actual match? Also the game is full of unnecessary bloat and complexity that makes the knowledge requirement for playing extremely high. For these reasons, I personally think the game is not very good when played competitively. Though I only played 3rd gen (Netbattle) so i'm not sure if things have gotten any better.

This is debatable. I would argue this applies far more to a game like Hearthstone than it does to pokemon. While the TheoryMon hole goes as deep as you could expect out of the game (it's gotten far deeper since you've last played) If you can't play well or outsmart your opponent, you're more than likely not going to win.

 

[Stone Ocean]

For the same reason no one gives a shit about watching competitive chess. It's a game that you absolutely need to understand the nitty gritty to actually enjoy what's going on the screen, so the people that would enjoy spectating it are more likely to be actually playing the matches than at home watching.

 

[Caipirinha]

It's not very interesting (note: this is not me insulting your taste if you play it, it's me explaining why it hasn't taken off); much of the depth of the game involves preparation rather than execution; it's not action oriented, it's strategy oriented (in contrast with most successful eSport games); it's on platforms that can't stream easily without external hardware; Nintendo doesn't support the games with eSport related features or even real multiplayer; most of the target audience is kids (again, this is not me insulting you if you're not a kid, just be explaining that kids are the main audience)... As to why Nintendo doesn't do more of this, some of it is corporate culture (Splatoon is another game that SHOULD be bigger in streaming but isn't as big as it could be due to some of their internal hangups)

This goes for Hearthstone, tbh I haven't seen any arguments re the gameplay ITT so far that don't also apply to Hearthstone and that's one of the most popular eSports in the world and yet, imo and as a legend player, I feel it has an atrociously low skill cap.

So what I'm saying is, if Nintendo and GameFreak etc. could somehow get their shit together and fix all the rest of what you said, couldn't Pokemon be a big hit in the scene?

I'll never get why competitive is doubles. So boring. It should be singles with level 100 Pokémon. Also they should spend more time on balancing the game and use patches if needed like in mobas etc. And make training easier so the focus is on experimenting with different builds, not on leveling and that IV whatever crap.

^^^^^^^^

 

[Lucario]

Aside from being turn-based and slow, it has a huge focus on RNG. Moves don't do fixed damage, status effects are all luck-based, and when two Pokemon have the same speed, the game just flips a coin to decide who goes first.

It's not even the hype kind of RNG, like topdecking an unexpected out in Magic or Hearthstone; everything's already visible. Nobody's going to get excited about one person's Pokemon missing more due to paralysis than their opponents'.

The small number of viable Pokemon in the standard metagame doesn't help. Not fun to build a team around your favorite Pokemon only to find it's noncompetitive due to some butt-ugly genie.

I love the Pokemon series, but the games aren't stream friendly in the slightest.

 

[bizzarewars]

I love playing competitive Pokemon.

I hate watching competitive Pokemon.

It's the same problem I have with Hearthstone. I just don't find it very fun to watch. Sure, I can recognize the skill or the reads involved with what's happening mid-game, but I doubt the average viewer can. Just not a spectator game.

 

[PK Gaming]

Because the main format (Doubles) isn't very good, luck plays an uncomfortably large part in matches, and it's a slow game.

EDIT: Singles is even more boring to watch.

 

[Azoor]

It's strange when people say it's boring to watch while Hearthstone is almost as boring and that game became huge in the Esport scene. Many have explained valid reasons but being boring isn't one of them.

 

[Caelus]

The improved 3D models, animations, faster speed and camera angles of the latest games at least make it more fun to watch, but yeah, being truly competitive requires a lot of time investment that might end up being a waste of time anyway. Sun and Moon might change that with Hyper Training and other unannounced goodies.

 

[Griss]

Three major problems with Pokemon from a 'watchability' perspective:

1. No time limit on decisions - The game needs to be fast paced to be watchable, and if it wants to be exciting it should be about making good decisions under time pressure. A 10 second timer would do the trick.

2. Pokemon switchng - People want to see monsters fighting. Seeing pokemon switching in and out constantly is as dull as ditchwater, but is the backbone of the competitive game.

3. Lack of balance - There's way too many pokemon who are completely unviable, and too many pokemon who are nearly mandated to be in a team. The pool of really usable pokemon at the top level tends to be the tiniest fraction of the 700+ roster. Or the 300+ fully evolved roster (whatever the numbers are). That's not good enough.

 

[Azuran]

I'll never get why competitive is doubles. So boring. It should be singles with level 100 Pokémon. Also they should spend more time on balancing the game and use patches if needed like in mobas etc. And make training easier so the focus is on experimenting with different builds, not on leveling and that IV whatever crap.

^^^^^^^^

I said a few post back but Singles matches take way too long to be viable in a tournament setting. Watching people constantly switching, spamming Stealth Rocks/Rapid Spin and setting up is boring as fuck. Also nobody wants to watch Stall. Hell, that crap is not even fun when you're playing.

Doubles has issues too but at least is a more offensive-minded format with a lot less constant switching and no stupid ass entry hazards.

 

[Kuga]

I would say it's really knowing high-level Pokemon play. The average person that played Blue version one time isn't going to know why you need a 40 attack power move called Rapid Spin, or why weather moves are so critical to many setups.

This is also a very good point. The casual observer is going to know nothing about different types of Pokemon teams (Stall, Aggro, Bulky Offense, etc.), how it matches up against an opponent's team composition, and also very little about why a move / switch was a good play or not.

And then there's the mind games: for example, why is somebody who isn't familiar with competitive Pokemon going to understand/care if Skarm got an extra layer of Spikes out because the opponent was predicting a switch but instead Skarm stayed in and out predicted? Even with commentators explaining the situation, it doesn't exactly make for compelling entertainment without an understanding of the nuance.

I haven't tried competitive Pokemon in years, but from what I can see with Mega Evolutions and Z-Moves and such, it's just going to keep becoming even more complicated for the layman to appreciate.

 

[Atomski]

Persona says hi.

Tokyo Mirage Sessions says hi.

The combat is fun to watch in persona???? It's boring enough to play as is.

Honesty I think the game is just to skmple. You would just end up with a few players with perfect sets and it would be all luck.

I'm pretty sure a Pokemon tcg would do better.

 

[Sou Da]

It's not easy to stream it at all which is probably the most important barrier.

Also the balance is a joke.

 

[Hektor]

This goes for Hearthstone, tbh I haven't seen any arguments re the gameplay ITT so far that don't also apply to Hearthstone and that's one of the most popular eSports in the world and yet

Hearthstone is not a popular esport, yes it's getting watched a lot, but that's not because it's such a good competitive esports game. People are watching this game ironically, because its fun to see good players being screwed by shitty dicerolls in one of the most RNG based cardgames on the market. No one (Save for the streamers and blizzard) is taking Hearthstone seriously the same way people do Dota, CSGO, LoL or Starcraft

 

[Griss]

I said a few post back but Singles matches take way too long to be viable in a tournament setting. Watching people constantly switching, spamming Stealth Rocks/Rapid Spin and setting up is boring as fuck. Also nobody wants to watch Stall. Hell, that crap is not even fun when you're playing.

Doubles has issues too but at least is a more offensive-minded format with a lot less constant switching and no stupid ass entry hazards.

The answer here is to fix singles, because as you've said it's garbage.

 

[pizzacat]

cuz it's fucking boring

And lmao at the guy saying persona and tms is fun to watch play or something

What?

 

[Justified]

you're missing the point. The person was making a case for why "exciting" and "turn-based" can be in the same sentence.

Why did you truncate "exciting to watch" to just "exciting"?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Game is far more balanced with Doubles. Singles at the highest level play would be a disaster.

Sure, but Doubles is a massive barrier to comp becoming more popular. Way more people who are interested in competitive Pokemon play Smogon's OU (or some comparable singles format) than VGC formats, the entirety of the main campaign in the games takes place in single barring the occasional odd fight here and there, the majority of the merchandising focuses on singles, and so on. If Nintendo really wanted to make competitive Pokemon big, they'd focus on rebalancing singles (to something like RSE or DPPt, which IMO had a better singles than doubles) rather than dicking around with a format a majority of casuals have no interest in.

 

[Caipirinha]

I said a few post back but Singles matches take way too long to be viable in a tournament setting. Watching people constantly switching, spamming Stealth Rocks/Rapid Spin and setting up is boring as fuck. Also nobody wants to watch Stall. Hell, that crap is not even fun when you're playing.

Doubles has issues too but at least is a more offensive-minded format with a lot less constant switching and no stupid ass entry hazards.

I really don't know the game well enough to comment on the balancing but for sure balancing is the number 1 for me, it's why I am losing interest in Hearthstone lately, the archetypes are completely and utterly imbalanced and each game boils down to about 3 coin tosses.

If top level Pokemon is like that then god I hope it changes if I'm to invest in it.

Sure, but Doubles is a massive barrier to comp becoming more popular. Way more people who are interested in competitive Pokemon play Smogon's OU (or some comparable singles format) than VGC formats, the entirety of the main campaign in the games takes place in single barring the occasional odd fight here and there, the majority of the merchandising focuses on singles, and so on. If Nintendo really wanted to make competitive Pokemon big, they'd focus on rebalancing singles (to something like RSE or DPPt, which IMO had a better singles than doubles) rather than dicking around with a format a majority of casuals have no interest in.

Sounds very reasonable.

 

[collige]

Doesn't pokemon battling have an element of randomness to it?

Do any of the other popular esports games have that?

I know fighting games don't and I don't think stuff like DOTA or LOL do to my knowledge.

Dota has massive amounts of RNG.

 

[Azuran]

The answer here is to fix singles, because as you've said it's garbage.

The format is just broken man and I don't think they can't fix it no matter how much they try. They sure as hell won't remove bulky defensive Pokemon which means it will always be slow no matter what they do.

Battle Spot has a 1 minute timer between moves and 3 Pokemon only and it still takes forever for things to get completed.

 

[Neoleo2143]

I really don't know the game well enough to comment on the balancing but for sure balancing is the number 1 for me, it's why I am losing interest in Hearthstone lately, the archetypes are completely and utterly imbalanced and each game boils down to about 3 coin tosses.

If top level Pokemon is like that then god I hope it changes if I'm to invest in it.

Pokemon generally needs a good ruleset to thrive. It's basically impossible to balance on its own terms but VGC 2014 was pretty good because it had a good ruleset and Kalos was pretty well put together competitvely.

 

[Hitlersaurus Christ]

If any Nintendo game deserves to be an eSport it's Splatoon IMO

 

[DrArchon]

I think the idea that all turn-based games are boring to watch is a bit of a reductive statement. It's not that Pokemon is turn based, its that the number of a available actions during any give turn is incredibly limited.

Let's compare Pokemon to something like Magic the Gathering. Both are turn based. In Pokemon, each 'mon has 4 moves plus you can switch out to another 'mon. In Magic you can have any number of cards in your hand that you can play throughout various points of a turn, including during an enemy's turn. The amount of variance in any give turn is staggering for Magic, while for Pokemon most turns devolve into switching to another Pokemon that has a type advantage over the opponent, which does lead to great gameplay requiring in-depth metagame knowledge, but it's just dull as hell to watch.

 

[pretty done]

Persona says hi.

Tokyo Mirage Sessions says hi.

This guy really thinks Persona is fun to watch xD

 

[Zubz]

It takes forever to breed good Pokèmon (Hacks are banned), the devs don't care about balance (Primal Reversions are allowed in official tournaments despite the base forms being banned in all fan tournaments that aren't Uber), the fact that there is so much content makes it take forever to figure out, and at the end of the day, people still pick from the same 10 Pokèmon every team.

More importantly, however, is that most Pokèmon players do it to have fun. They don't care about the meta. They don't even usually care about having a balanced team. They just want to use the Pokèmon they like best, beat the E4, play a little into the postgame, then either stop or restart.

And also, it's turn-based.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I don't see the comparison to Hearthstone.

Hearthstone is fast paced enough to be interesting to watch, and hilarious because of RNG. It's not something I watch frequently, but there's some real amusement to be had there.