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Why Nintendo Is No Longer King of Same Screen Multiplayer
- Thread starter nbthedude
- Start date
Zeyphersan
Banned
thisisneogaf.gif
Spring-Loaded
Member
How is indie same-screen multi gaming the king? especially over nintendo
Objective results of why Nintendo is still king? What? People say that they offer the best party games all the time without providing "objective results." I'm not even sure what the hell "objective results" would mean in this case.
I wasn't really being careless in my language usage other than maybe in the fact that I underestimated the defensiveness of Nintendo fans, I guess. Again if I had started a thread saying that Nintendo was still King of Multiplayer, nobody would be asking for "objective results" or accusing me of being intentionally incendiary. I was very intentionally taking a counter position to a common claim made over and over again about Nintendo's dominance over this area of gaming.
jackissocool
Member
Indie games are the king, and they're on PS4. At least in my kingdom, although Nintendo gets plenty of love too, and Smash Will certainly be the coup that dethrones Towerfall and Octodad and maybe (when it comes out) Helldivers.
Glass Rebel
Member
Weirdly enough, OP's analysis isn't supported by his evidence at all. Nintendo Land takes way longer to get into than 3D World so the argument of "immediacy" doesn't really hold.
Chie Satonaka
Member
I think the thread has already addressed this multiple times, but a definitive, console wars esque statement isn't a good idea for a title, especially when it's backed up by a "What I did over Christmas vacation" grade school paper.
There are certainly ways this could have went without being bait, but between the title and this gem:
...I feel like it's pretty clear what is happening here. There's no reason to bring Nintendo up here in the title, and especially not in the responses to legitimate criticism.
You really need to take this stick out of your bum. You cannot possibly be this arrogant to think that all of us are some rabid Nintendo fans can you? Are you really that self centered that you would rather assume that, than to even consider that perhaps you didn't create this topic very well at all considering the type of conversation you were seeking?
Exactly. I suppose this is where we just jump off ship here. But I figured I would try anyway.
I'm pretty sure all the games I mentioned require less than half that number of button presses to get started.
But that's not quite what I meant by immediacy. I mean time to big moments and big pay offs. You might play an entire match of Mario Kart and have a handful of special moments, one of them being clutch when someone gets off a turtle shell at just the right angle as you pass the finish line. I games like Sports Friends and Samurai gun, those kinds of moments where the entire room screem and laugh occur like several times a minute, not once or twice a game.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Man OP...man
Zeyphersan
Banned
Pretty much. The topic could have been about the rise of same-screen multiplayer indie games, which is a great thing to talk and about discuss. Instead the OP tried to make it about a Nintendo vs Indie thing for no reason
Pseudo_Sam
Survives without air, food, or water
You lead with an incendiary thread title that doesn't really have much to do with the meat of your OP, which is that the indie scene has some great local multiplayer games. Then you insist the thread is really about those indie games and not Nintendo, when you keep bringing up Nintendo and repeatedly deride its fanbase. Then you complain that the thread isn't going the way it should have and it must be the fault of the Nintendo fans.
This is like how not to make a productive thread 101.
This is like how not to make a productive thread 101.
There probably isn't any objective results you could use, which is why your language doesn't make sense. Is it really worse to say "I think nintendo is no longer king of same screen multiplayer". It's so much clearer and actually does service to your anecdotes.
I disagree with your points here. Blaming the defensiveness on other people is a cop out as well because the onus is on you to get people to understand your point, which they didn't and why half the thread is not on topic.
Anyway you can carry on. I don't really have a stake in this, I just thought you'd want to know why your thread bombed.
I can see why you would think that. I probably didn't do a good enough job explaining what i meant by immediacy. Although I do think the convoluted button presses thing is a problem and indicative of similar design philosophy problems, I was talking about "immediacy" in the sense of immediate big moments and emotional climaxes in multiplayer gaming sessions.
The entire topic was a mess. Theres no way to even really interpret what he is looking for because it was articulated so poorly. But telling him that only leads to the dead end of him calling GAF a Nintendo Fanboy hivemind.
I mean, is it Indies versus Nintendo? And if so Why? "Indies" encompasses dozens.. hundreds of development studios. How is the comparison apt?
Is it a console versus the WiiU? At what point in the generation do we make the comparison? 8 months after the launch of the PS4/XB1 and 1.5 years or so after the launch of the WiiU? Is that fair? Is anything fair prior to the end of the generation when we can actually tally the true 'score'?
So many open holes...
This here is SO much better. Its very clear what you mean there. A game design discussion surrounding the peaks and valleys of excitement in multiplayer games is very easy to understand and discuss. Thread might finally be getting on track here.
If you look at sales (even if they have greatly decreased), critical acclaim and overall output, which are far closer to objective metrics than what you and your buddies do in your spare time, then Nintendo is still far ahead of the competition when it comes to local multiplayer. It's not so much that people care about defending Nintendo, it's that what you are claiming is absurd.
If instead you concentrated on saying indies have been making games that you find more enjoyable than Nintendo's recent output, rather than trying to claim your personal experiences were some kind of universal truth, people would have take you more seriously.
And FYI, resorting to ad hominem isn't generally the best tactic for winning an argument.
Riposte
Member
There's an upcoming event dedicated to several same screen multiplayer games that will have thousands of participants and hundred of thousand viewers. If that's not royalty, then I don't know what is. Check it out:
http://evo.shoryuken.com/
Nintendo has a game included.
http://evo.shoryuken.com/
Nintendo has a game included.
So you're just talking about the frequency of exciting events? Is that really something that is lacking in Nintendo games in general or is it just a fault of the kart racing genre? Seems to me that racing games just aren't built around as many direct player-to-player interactions as something like a fighting game. Are there any indie games more similar to Mario Kart that you could compare it to?
This is incredibly tangential but I think it is worse, yes. I'm not claiming to be an expert or someone who has the most purple prose, but I do have a Phd in English and have been teaching composition for nearly ten years. And in fact I tell my students on a regular basis to just make their arguments rather than drawing too much attention to their own metacommentary (I think that... I am going to discuss... etc.). Of course it is important to put relevant qualifiers and to be careful not to make all inclusive statements where there are important exceptions. And that is where I try to get them to modify their messaging--to get them to focus on carefully to qualifying statements rather than just offering a mundane "It is just my opinion that..." or countering someone else by just saying it is "just their opinion." Hiding behind that kind of empty relativism just leads to lazy thoughts where there are worlds of opinion but little analysis of their worth.
TriangularDuck
Member
I'm about as big a Nintendo die-hard there is.
On my PS4, Sportsfriends and Towerfall are great. Super Pole Riders, in particular, is a fantastic party game. Watching a group of four experience the game for the first time is a beautiful and wonderful thing. Towerfall is also great, Headhunters provides a pretty solid way to keep people in the game.
The problem with a lot of these new indie multiplayer games is that the skill ceiling is too damn high. I will crush people in Towerfall, grabbing motherfucking arrows out of the air and pinpoint sniping people, every time. Smash Bros will always be a better party game for this reason, chuck items on High and everyone has a chance to win every once in a while. The same goes to Sonic All-Stars vs Mario Kart. There's just way too much a skilled player can do in Sonic to stay waaaay ahead of the pack. Mario Kart is a much better party game because of that. You can be an excellent racer, but get pummeled with a blue shell, then a red shell, then some asshole with a fire flower, then you're right back in the pack.
If your group is all hardcore gamers, which one of my multiplayer groups is, Towerfall is great. If you've got more of a mix of skill-sets, Nintendo is still king. Too many of these new indie multiplayer games tend to just get new/casual gamers frustrated quickly.
On my PS4, Sportsfriends and Towerfall are great. Super Pole Riders, in particular, is a fantastic party game. Watching a group of four experience the game for the first time is a beautiful and wonderful thing. Towerfall is also great, Headhunters provides a pretty solid way to keep people in the game.
The problem with a lot of these new indie multiplayer games is that the skill ceiling is too damn high. I will crush people in Towerfall, grabbing motherfucking arrows out of the air and pinpoint sniping people, every time. Smash Bros will always be a better party game for this reason, chuck items on High and everyone has a chance to win every once in a while. The same goes to Sonic All-Stars vs Mario Kart. There's just way too much a skilled player can do in Sonic to stay waaaay ahead of the pack. Mario Kart is a much better party game because of that. You can be an excellent racer, but get pummeled with a blue shell, then a red shell, then some asshole with a fire flower, then you're right back in the pack.
If your group is all hardcore gamers, which one of my multiplayer groups is, Towerfall is great. If you've got more of a mix of skill-sets, Nintendo is still king. Too many of these new indie multiplayer games tend to just get new/casual gamers frustrated quickly.
I dont play Nintendo land and wii party u by myself, and i live and 2 hours away from most of my gamer friends who dont own a wii u. But yet i get sick of those 2 game everytime i go down there to visit them because that's all they'll want to play and we play it for hours. last gen was Mario party, and fortune street and smash, gen before that it was melee and mario tennis/strikers. Nintendo continues and always will be king of local multipalyer.
Captain Europe
Member
Never heard of those games in the OP.
I would say Nintendo is still king.
I would say Nintendo is still king.
That's an interesting point and while it is true that most of the group are pretty well versed gamers, not all of them were. And while for example they might not win at Samuari Gun as often, for example, I never got the sense that they were frustrated.
I would agree with you that these games do create more of a gap in skill ceilings, perhaps. But I'm not sure that automatically means they are less fun for more casual gamers. Maybe it is because the immediacy of just gutting someone with that dramatic pause in Samurai Gun is enough in of itself even if you don't win.
Pole Riders is definitely a group favorite but we got pretty caught up in the insanity of it all. I was noticing a singificant skill increase near the end of the night, though, so it will be interesting to see if it does become frustrating for some in the group.
Ok, last post before I go to bed. Everything you're saying is fine and all, but I think the problem is still missing out the context of this board. I'm telling you this because I got in trouble for a similar turn of language, and in ordinary speech with a person, in person you'd be right. However, here-
NeoGAF is a nexus of hardcore gamers, enthusiast press, and video game industry developers and publishers. This is a neutral ground where facts and evidence, presented within the confines of civil, inclusive discourse, prevail through careful moderation.
IS important because it sets up what people here are accustomed to hearing. "Why oxford isn't king of English studies" would warrant the same reaction in the OT, because that 'why' question presupposes an empirical answer on this message board. Like I said, I don't really have a stake in this, I just think that it's important to know who you're talking to because stuff like this happens a lot. I'd rather a thread that makes an argument- whether I agree with it or not, isn't hampered by people veering off topic because everybody is talking over each other.
Well that's why the Nintendo comparison came up to begin with. When you put those Nintendo games side by side with the games I mentioned, the contrast between how frequently you get those peaks and valleys becomes very clear. Games like Samurai Gun or Sports Friends will have the whole room cheering and laughing and screaming "OOOOH!" every half a minute. Then you put Mario Kart on and while it's fun, the tempo and the mood of the room just changes almost immediately in comparison. It's not that those Nintendo games are completely lacking in fun, it's just that they don't create that same sensation at all in comparison.
Glass Rebel
Member
This makes more sense and in the context of the games mentioned, I can also see where you're coming from. 3D World is a co-op game that hardly encourages competitiveness. Blocks give enough power ups for all players for example, whick takes out fighting over resources. On the other hand, the other games you mention all feature a strong competitive element which, in my opinion, naturally leads to more and more emotional "big moments". Mario Kart and Smash Bros. are probably better points of comparison.
Chie Satonaka
Member
Isn't that example still completely anecdotal? I don't currently own Mario Kart 8, but play sessions in Mario Kart Wii have provided me with exactly the same type of atmosphere that you're discussing here. I worked at a Cyber Cafe with 20 computers and people constantly playing gigantic multiplayer games, but you know what evoked the most vocal response from both players and onlookers? When we brought in the Gamecube for four player Melee.
Agreed. Probably the closest recent Nintendo game I think to that is the Animal Crossing game in Nintendo Land. The risk/reward of carrying all the candy and the required elements of both co-op and competition really get a room full of people going. But most of the other games both in Nintendo Land and and the other Wii U multiplayer games I tried was really like being at a raucous party and then putting on some slow dance music. Again it's not that there is anything wrong with them mechanically, but they just don't seem to have that BPM (Blasts per minute) of games like Samurai Gun, Sports Friends, Speed Runners, Tower Fall etc.
I would say no one. The king has been dethroned and replaced by a benevolent collective of governing indies.
I fixed this to better reflect your argument.
Yep, but how many friends do you have in that room and do you feel your experiences are indicative of a wider trend that currently emerging? If so what leads you to believe this? Sales? Hearsay?
TriangularDuck
Member
Let's take a game that I personally love, BaraBariBall for this example. Casual gamers fucking hate that game. They have a very hard time grasping the 7 jump limit. They don't understand jumping so low that you literally go off the screen to stop a point from scoring. I'll come back from the watery depths with a ball ready to pass to my teammate on the other side of the map, and I'll get bullshit called on me again and again. They'll try to do it, but enter the depths with three jumps and die. It's just not a game that lends itself well to casual play, people get discouraged before they can grasp the core mechanics.
Clairvoyance
Member
But you're wrong, so what do you want to hear?
The best comparison I can make is tempo in music. These games run at a higher tempo so to speak. Is that somewhat subjective? I guess maybe in the sense that someone who finds one song "too slow" another person might find that song suitably fast for them. But I'm not sure there would be much disagreement as to which was a faster tempo. Similarly, it seems to me that the "tempo' of these games is much higher and therefore creates more energy in the room comparatively speaking.
Captain Europe
Member
Anecdotal. My friends reacted very positively to MK8, I'd say even more so than any other MK before.
soxinthebox
Member
Mario Kart, NSMBU, Nintendo Land and 3D World were all well received in my group and we also enjoy Towerfall. I'm not sure what objective statement I'm supposed to come to with that.
TriangularDuck
Member
Towerfall and Samurai Gunn both smartly abuse slow-motion in order to create hype as fuck moments. The slow motion goes down and everyone gets excited - to a point. I'm not sure if I've ever played a Towerfall session longer than an hour, that mechanic in particular wears on people after a while.
To know whether or not it is just an inexplicable phenomenon of a singular occurence or if there is something more substantial going on (such as the "tempo" metaphor I have been trying to communicate), you and your friends would have to have also played the games I mentioned to make a direct comparison, no?
It's kind of like having a conversation between whether Street Fighter or Virtua Fighter is king and you insisting that VF is better w/o ever having played Street Fighter.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
Nintendo vs. the world. Of course Nintendo has less local multiplayer games compared to everyone else combined, and of course there are going to be great local multiplayer games not made by Nintendo. For one publisher, they certainly have a great selection though.
I can see that. And I can see it as a criticism of the games themselves if they weren't backed up by solid mechanics to keep the games themselves interesting. I think they "earn" that bit of embellisment. But I think Pole Runners accomplishes the same sensations with it's over the top physics where crazy things are liable to happen at any given moment.
DXLelouch153
Banned
as long as Smash exists their still the king
dude chill out, you are acting like an a-hole by going all mad because almost everybody thinks you are worng, you can't come here and do some claims with just a "me and my friends", you should at least have said something like "nintendo is no longer king because Sony/MS/whatever company/game is doing offline multiplayer better" it's hard to dethrone Nintendo when almost nobody is doing local multiplayer games anymore.
Anyways, based on my personal experience the wii U is the king of local multiplayer when my friends and brothers come to visit me, for everything else I have a PC
Anyways, based on my personal experience the wii U is the king of local multiplayer when my friends and brothers come to visit me, for everything else I have a PC
Zeyphersan
Banned
OP: if the Wii U had Towerfall Ascension and Samurai Gunn on the eShop, to you, would Nintendo still be the king?