davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
i hope they are Anti-Vaxx too.
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Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Why no love for Jill Stein 2016 on here?
- Thread starter WayneMorse
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i hope they are Anti-Vaxx too.
there's a lot more on the ballot than just the president
Aaron Strife
Banned
That's impossible! If the candidate I support is losing, it's only because the system is rigged!
Yeah, we can throw away our votes for third party candidates in Congressional and state races too! Down with the two party system, maaan!phanphare said:
I'm not an extreme leftist. I'm voting for a candidate that will do all they can to get Citizens United overturned. That has always been my bottom line. If we're unwilling to fix our democracy then nothing can happen in the first place.
Super delegates aren't rigging the system? Arizona shrinking the number of voting booths isn't rigging the system? The biased media coverage isn't rigging the system? For fuck sakes look at the Republican party; people in Colorado didn't even vote!!!
Don't tell me for a second the system isn't rigged, it absolutely is. There is evidence of this everywhere and it's extremely naive to think that it isn't.
What are the chances that someone who considers Sanders a sell-out for participating in the two-party system is going to vote a Democratic down-ticket?
old manatee
Banned
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
If the Republicans weren't such a horrifyingly bad party, I would choose Green Party.
But at this point, I'm like, "no Republican can reach office, at any cost."
Green Party's the cost.
But at this point, I'm like, "no Republican can reach office, at any cost."
Green Party's the cost.
They did in the past, it worked out very well.
WayneMorse
Banned
I don't get this perfectionism.
Hillary supports drone strikes against innocent people, she supports Israel's wanton oppression and genocide of Palestinians, she supports suppressing free speech on campuses under the guise of fighting antisemitism, she supports privatizing education, she supports using mass incarceration to create a pool of low cost prison labor for private corporations, she supports putting away people for life for drug possession.
Shows what's wrong with the current political system.
WayneMorse
Banned
The only real way to break the two party system is a grassroots movement to vote for the Greens en masse.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Then shit, vote Hillary. CU is a litmus test for any potential Supreme Court picks of hers. For god's sake, it's a personal issue!
Also, your rigging things, in order:
1) Not really no. They're there to prevent a Trump-esque figure from hijacking the party, not to "rig the system."
2) Yeah, that's the Arizona legislature's efforts to rig the system... for Republicans. It has nothing at all to do with the DNC, or indeed, the primary.
3) Nope. The media is not, barring Fox, ideologically biased. What they are biased towards is ratings and fairness.
4) The Republicans being a bunch of raging assholes is rather why people take up anti-third-party stances in the first place, dude.
No, it'll never happen unless we amend the constitution. Until we totally alter the process by which we select our representatives, there exists room for ONLY two primary parties. Attempting to change it by voting for some random shmuck as a protest is futile. There's some room in smaller races, though, and it's fine to vote Green or whatever for, like, school board or city council or mayor, but trying to start with the Presidency is pure madness.
I hope you're a pro-gun Bernie supporter if you're gonna selectively apply this purity test.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Hey guess what Hillary supports
no
Blame that on Arizona Republicans, not "the system"
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Yeah, those Republicans sure are wacky! What are we talking about again?
It's extremely naive to think that your preferred candidate not winning must indicate some sort of corrupt shenanigans. Your preferred candidate put forth his argument to the voters and lost. Deal with it.
I can't do this anymore
WayneMorse
Banned
I've never supported Bernie if that's what you're thinking.
Can you argue against any of these claims, because I'm pretty sure all of them are correct.
kittenbreath
Member
But you will NEVER break the two party system without dramatic changes to electoral law. We choose our representatives in single member districts with only a plurality of votes cast necessary for victory. Under those conditions, third parties only split the vote of viable alternatives.
The best the Green Party could hope for is replacing the Democratic Party, as the GOP replaced the Whigs.
nelsonroyale
Member
This in itself shows how jaded and short sighted our democratic vision has become. We are caught in poverty of vision/imagination/aspiration trap.
Aaron Strife: That bar chart...is far too basic. Have you got a breakdown by say issue? (Economics, foreign policy, healthcare, etc.)
Primethius
Banned
Even if I was a die hard Sanders supporter, there is no fucking way I would waste my vote for an unelectable candidate this election as a minority.
Absolutely no fucking way.
Absolutely no fucking way.
Why does Hillary continue to accept contributions from special interests if she's so vehemently against Citizens United? She's a status quo politician that will say and do anything to get herself elected. I cannot trust her judgement.
1) Not acceptable in a democracy. If people are passionate enough to vote for a candidate that needs to be respected. If the Democratic Party thinks that's a radical idea then they ought to change the name of their party.
2) It effected everyone though. My point here is to show the corruption on both sides.
3) https://theintercept.com/2015/10/29/media-fundraisers-presidential/
4) You could argue that both ways. Americans just have to wake up and realize they have a common enemy here.
Why because he brings up legitimate points? Hillary does not represent the American peoples' interests at large or Liberal values, that's just how it is.
This. He's an idealist, even with his pie in the sky wants he's not totally delusional.
Also it's a common belief that Nader was partly responsible for getting Bush the White House.
I love that the height of American democracy is apparently voting in someone you don't like to keep someone else you like less out of office. It's incredibly disillusioning.
And frankly, this kind of "the adults have work to do" talk is so fucking condescending. I'm probably older than you are, and I've given a lot of deep, adult thought to my reasoning for voting. I voted for Stein in 2012, and if Hillary is the Democratic nominee in 2016 I will vote for her again.
- I live in a deep, deep red winner take all state (North Dakota) which counts for a whopping 3 electoral votes. My vote for president is effectively irrelevant. The last time a Dem won the Presidential ballot here was 1964. Before that it was 1940.
- I do not, and will not, align myself exclusively with the Democratic party. I will vote for good Democratic candidates, generally, because I have extremely progressive politics. But my beliefs and the platform of the Democrats are not completely simpatico. I don't have to register for a party in this state, either, so this is very easy for me.
- I voted in the 2008 Primary to support Obama, and stood in long lines to see him twice on the campaign trail. I volunteered and worked phones for him and down ticket Dems prior to the general election. I voted for him in the 2008 general election (and a straight Dem ticket) and was moved to tears when he got elected.
- I was not happy with a number of policies and actions of the first four years of his presidency (and yes, before you try to come to me with a bunch of condescending bullshit I do understand what a president can and cannot do and what is and is not out of his control), and did not give him my vote in 2012. I voted Democrat down ticket on elections other than President because a) the state Republican party here is absolutely rancid and b) they absolutely need my support. (but I guess I'm not "a ally" according to you!)
- I think Bernie Sanders is closer to me politically but not a great candidate. He's probably not getting the nomination. I think Hillary is a good candidate who has taken a lot of shit for things outside of her control for two decades, which is unfair. But she also has policy positions that I am strongly against, and I cannot vote for her in good conscience. I'm clearly not voting for a fascist (Trump) or a den of eels that live in human skin (Cruz).
So this leaves me with three options:
- Vote for someone I don't actually want to vote for
- Vote for someone I actually want to vote for
- Don't vote at all
If (or when) I live in a state where the political calculus is different, I will make a decision accordingly, because while my politics are radical, my actions are nuanced.
digita1alchemy
Member
People should vote for the candidate they believe in. If Hillary were to lose the general election because of liberals voting for someone like Jill Stein, then maybe the DNC should think long and hard about why.
WayneMorse
Banned
You were never an ally either, where were you when the Clinton's were destroying the New Deal and reintroducing slavery through mass incarceration throughout the country? Where were you when Bill nominated abortion moderates like Ginsburg and Breyer and lurched the court permanently to the right on all issues? Where were you when Obama praised the Stupak amendment to the ACA which further restricted abortions from the lower classes?
The Clinton's have stood in the way of social progress their entire lives, can you Democratic shills do all the real progressives a favor and get the fuck out of our way?
teruterubozu
Member
Oh they've thought long and hard alright. The guilt-shaming is actually part of the solution.
I'm talking about the OP. I assumed you were talking about someone who votes Green for President, but Democratic for local/state elections.
Primethius
Banned
I can't tell if the OP is having a meltdown or not.
uncelestial
Member
That can't be right. How is Kasich even getting close the attention of the other four?
Also % of what? How do I read this chart?
I was just saying that it's better to vote than to stay at home because of what's at the top of the ballot. never took it a step further.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Well usually the burden of proof is on the accuser, but sure.
Targeted drone strikes, but ok.
I'll agree that no major party presidential candidate is willing to give it straight on Israel.
Looked this up, it seems to be tied into the Israel stuff yet also seems like a big nothingburger. Disagreeing with people is not "suppressing free speech."
what
Doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement to me, unless you just think she's lying. (In which case you can just lobby any attack against her!)Hillary Clinton said:
Is that why she's returning donations from private prison lobbyists? This has been so thoroughly debunked that once again, you have to assume she's just lying based on everything she's said and done.
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/criminal-justice-reform/
So here's what I'll cede to you: She's too right on Israel. Anything else is grossly misrepresenting her position or just outright lying about it. If Israel is the hill you want to die on, by all means, that's your right, but you'd do better trying to convince people with facts and logic instead of bullshit you pulled out of your ass.
teruterubozu
Member
It just means in a highly negative presidential campaign, Kasich looks marginally positive.
R10Neymarfan
Member
Do that and you're gonna be waiting around half a century more for what you want. That's if if something doesn't kill you from said policies they'll enact because you feel you need to prove a point right now. Petty grudges like that will stop the progress you're fighting for.
Orbis Tabula
Member
The idea is that you balance the different aspects you like in candidate against aspects you don't like. For example, one could support Bernie Sanders because of his stance on health care, even though they may not like his stance on guns. The cost of getting health care is letting go of the gun issue.
Well the cost of voting for candidate that has a 0.00000001% chance of winning is that they'd damn well better be perfect. If I'm gonna throw my vote away in some symbolic gesture of support, it had better be a damn good symbol. Green Party ain't it. As I said, at that point, I may as well vote for myself.
I'm not pro-gun. Greater elect-ability was the benefit I gained from letting the gun issue slide.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
People voting for Ted Cruz don't believe they are extreme right wingers either.
What a great argument against me.
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
I've voted for her for governor.
zoleristec
Member
Aaron Strife
Banned
Because you need to win the game if you want to change the rules? Why should a presidential candidate unilaterally disarm? You think Trump, Cruz et al is going to be hurting for that sweet SuperPAC cash? Obama took plenty of money from Wall St. and health insurance and still got Dodd-Frank and Obamacare through, which contrary to the far-left narrative are actually hated by the industries they're affected by. Hillary was proposing regulations on Wall Street in 2007, before the crash, before Bernie came on the scene calling to burn the motherfucker down, and somehow this money is influencing her? Also she's not taking money directly from the banks, she's taking money from everyday schmoes who work for the banks, who are based in New York, which she represented as Senator. Is it really that hard to piece together?
If they overturn the will of the people then you'd have a point. They have not done so. If Bernie took the lead in pledged delegates the supers would follow.
You've shown that corruption affects both sides, not that it's perpetrated by both sides.
How has this affected their coverage? As the graph I posted earlier demonstrates, news coverage of Hillary has been significantly more negative than it has been for any other presidential candidate. You keep showing the quid, never the quo pro.
Yes, the Republican Party.
No because he brings up bullshit points that Bernie supporters and third-party dead enders have no problem regurgitating without doing any goddamn fact checking.
It's % of stories that are about them, it doesn't mean Kasich is getting the same amount of stories.
ugaboga232
Member
Um, can't speak about dodd-frank but what part of obamacare being hated by insurance agencies are you talking about? Doctors may hate them but doctors are the proverbial cog in the wheel sadly. Obamacare if anything is an example of how just playing the game gives you substandard results.
So then they move left and lose the votes of centrists and moderates. Great plan, there.
If third parties want to stop being the underpants gnomes of American politics maybe you should start advocating for a different voting system. Until then a vote for Jill Stein is as worthless as voting for Vermin Supreme.
Fenderputty
Banned
They're rebels, man.
Fighting a system that can't be fought in the way they're fighting it.
The Albatross
Member
- Life's Fine with Jill Stein
- What's Your's is Mine -- Vote for Stein
- No Bernie, No Hill, We Want Jill!
gutter_trash
Banned
congress
Fenderputty
Banned
When you toss your vote away, you're really only giving the GOP a half vote since you're not voting for them. At least that was the actual argument I've read from a Bernie supporter on here.
Bingo.
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