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[TheDreadBaron]

I’m annoyed that you’re trying to criticize immersive sim gameplay based on the choices not being interesting enough, when that’s the main appeal of them. However, I’ve been in that situation of not having the stats to get through a barrier and that’s also annoying and somewhat contrived.

I’ve also been in the situation in dishonored where I thought there was only one possibility to progress, tried to do it the hard way, then only later realized there’s another more hidden possibility which feels really good as it keeps your eyes open once you realize you’re not stuck on one track.

Of course, the routes are still limited, but your door / window analogy is not something I recognize in these games. They generally keep the options much more organic and interesting than that and ask the player to think and plan.

It’s never going to be as dynamic as a multiplayer game, but it’s supposed to be more of a slow paced cerebral experience, anyways have fun with fortnite.

 

[ZoukGalaxy]

I think Fortnite is the GOAT

 

[Puscifer]

Playing serious Fortnite if you're above 18 should be a felony.

Look bro I just love making Kratos do shit he was never intended

 

[Pimpbaa]

Ah come on, those windows are usually a pain in the ass to get to. Especially if you don’t enhance your jump with cyberware in Cyberpunk 2077.. Being able to open the door is a time saver.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I’m annoyed that you’re trying to criticize immersive sim gameplay based on the choices not being interesting enough, when that’s the main appeal of them. However, I’ve been in that situation of not having the stats to get through a barrier and that’s also annoying and somewhat contrived.

I’ve also been in the situation in dishonored where I thought there was only one possibility to progress, tried to do it the hard way, then only later realized there’s another more hidden possibility which feels really good as it keeps your eyes open once you realize you’re not stuck on one track.

Of course, the routes are still limited, but your door / window analogy is not something I recognize in these games. They generally keep the options much more organic and interesting than that and ask the player to think and plan.

It’s never going to be as dynamic as a multiplayer game, but it’s supposed to be more of a slow paced cerebral experience, anyways have fun with fortnite.

I'm not really interested in the multiplayer vs single player debate here.

I'm more interested in figuring out what games like Dishonored and Cyberpunk 2077 are doing wrong. Or what they could be improving upon. I'm a multiplayer gamer at heart but I'm interested enough in single player to keep tabs on that side of the industry.

Why do I find the gameplay choices in the Hitman games to be more rewarding + interesting than the gameplay choices in Cyberpunk + Dishonored? What's the difference between these games that I'm not noticing at the moment? On paper, I should love immersive sims. I like choice, freedom...more cerebral ways to overcome obstacles...but I haven't found an immersive sim that clicks for me.

I appreciate your post.

 

[SHA]

Expendables carefree mindset.

 

[nikos]

I liked the option of playing UT4 but Fortnite closed that door for me.

 

[SHA]

"Why game X isnt as good as Fortnite?"

Average Men_in_Boxes thread

Always comparing apples to oranges

Dont even know where to start, because the comparison is so nonsensical.

In kids minds, when you put fortnite inside 9 yrs olds mind, magic happens.

 

[Drizzlehell]

The hell was that part about Fortnite at the beginning?

Anyway, I get what you're saying but it's rarely as simple and dumbed down as you make it out to be in those types of games. Especially in immersive sims like Dishonored. Often times you have to look for actual solutions to infiltrate some building or specific rooms if you want to be sneaky, and it's rarely just about going through an open window that's 3 feet away. As for the fact that you can just punch your way through the obstacle as a possible alternative, I don't see how that's a problem. The fact that I had the option to just slap a LAM mine on to a door and blast them open in Deus Ex was that game's strength because it just allowed me to apply such a brute force solution if I ever got frustrated with sneaking around or trying to find more subtle ways through obstacles. Many other games are just going to stonewall you with unrealistically indestructible obstacles and force you to fetch some arbitrary item in order to open them and progress. Games like Cyberpunk or Dishonored carry that tradition set by games like Deus Ex and that's why they're more than just simple shooters/sneaking games.

 

[Gandih42]

Maybe we follow the discourse in different places, but I think games are docked when the choices they present you aren't meaningful. I haven't played CP2077 but I've seen the point belaboured many times that while the action and set-piece missions are exciting, they do not really have a lot of meaningful variation in how you approach them. Mostly boiling down to "guns blazing" being the most efficient approach.

Dishonored I have played (a long time ago albeit) and I don't recognize the "door-window" problem you're describing. Undoubtedly, not all the options they present to the player are winners and some will be completely arbitrary. These are bad for the "immersive" part of the immersive sim. For most missions though, I would say that the game rewards you quite considerably for spending time to sneak around undetected and finding alternative solutions to complete your objective. Some locked behind specific skills you can choose, which adds a needed tension in how you build Corvo.

Although this also highlights a big limitation of the series, and what I imagine is your big gripe with it. These alternative solutions are for the most part hard-baked into the game. Like, you find a specific interaction that lets you lure the target to a specific location where you can use a specific item to eliminate them (lethally or non-lethally). In essence, it becomes more of puzzle with a fixed solution and less of a challenge for the player to creatively use the tools and systems provided by the game. You mention liking Hitman better and my guess is that Hitman levels are much more systems-driven and encourage emergent gameplay and creative solutions more.

Personally, I don't think one is objectively better than the other. The lack of emergent-gameplay in Dishonored has the benefit of a much more handcrafted experience, and likely a more consistently enjoyable challenge. The open-ness of the Hitman levels are much more unpredictable and will likely require more investment from the player to truly shine, but can lead to completely unique and fun unpredictable scenarios.

Ultimately, I think there is a sort of antagonistic push-and-pull between the systems-driven design of games like Hitman/Tears of the Kingdom/Baldurs Gate 3 and the more focused puzzlebox-like design of games like Dishonored/Prey/Deus Ex. I totally get your criticism that some arbitrary stat number preventing you from opening a door is not necessarily fun. I think the "immersive" part of immersive sim is supposed to make up for that and your imagination does some of the heavily lifting in how it all makes sense. Well designed immersive sims should embrace some level of chaotic systems-driven elements, while also having tight and complex level design. I think Prey in particular accomplishes this very well, but given your feelings about Dishonored I'm not sure you would agree.

 

[TheDreadBaron]

I'm not really interested in the multiplayer vs single player debate here.

I'm more interested in figuring out what games like Dishonored and Cyberpunk 2077 are doing wrong. Or what they could be improving upon. I'm a multiplayer gamer at heart but I'm interested enough in single player to keep tabs on that side of the industry.

Why do I find the gameplay choices in the Hitman games to be more rewarding + interesting than the gameplay choices in Cyberpunk + Dishonored? What's the difference between these games that I'm not noticing at the moment? On paper, I should love immersive sims. I like choice, freedom...more cerebral ways to overcome obstacles...but I haven't found an immersive sim that clicks for me.

I appreciate your post.

Well I’m just confused why dishonored in particular is not working for you, it’s hitting for me. I guess as an idea for improvement you could get rid of that awkward frustrating moment of being stat locked out of something by making the character’s abilities purely game knowledge and execution based, so you would never feel unfairly gated, but that has its own issues too.

Someone mentioned Prey Mooncrash, that could be more your flavor. It’s an Arkane game that’s perhaps more similar to Hitman in that you make each short run with a limited and focused toolset. I like playing as the set characters you can choose from with their limited stat progressions because each one plays very different and they’re not the overpowered monster the main game’s progression encourages you to become. It forces interesting choices in the moment and also requires planning across multiple runs, it’s pretty innovative.

Main game is great too TBH, but for what you’re looking for Mooncrash might just tickle your fancy. If Prey cant cure what ails you then you might be out of luck because I don’t think they make anything stronger than that over the counter.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I always opt for the window, or even better the sewers and vents. Had extreme satisfaction doing so in games like MGS, Sniper Elite, and many stealth-oriented games. Makes full sense to sneak in buildings that you're not supposed to enter. but having more choices than the curated one is the better way.

OP you're just whiny twat.

 

[SmokedMeat]

These games often give you a door. You go up to it, learn that you don't have enough door punching points in your character, so then you must find the window that the developers have placed 10ft away. Wow, the window is open. Who would have thunk it?

I find these choices to be bafflingly stupid. Who cares if I go through a square (window) to get into the building or if I use the rectangle (door). The game doesn't differentiate between the two. Finding the window isn't fun. Going through the window doesn't give me a new set of options. I'm just plopped right next to the door once I enter.

This is such a silly exaggeration of single player games that offer choice. And yes, taking another route does give different options, sometimes to your advantage.

 

[StueyDuck]

automated garage doors is where the real meaning of life is at

 

[sigmaZ]

Can't tell if you are actually trying to have a shallow or deep conversation about choice.
It seems like you are saying you don't like things to be so obvious and you like to figure out things on your own.
If you're resigned to first person games, I agree with recommendations of games like Deus Ex and such, but if you are open to 3rd person games, games like Disco Elysium and Baldur's Gate 3 give you a lot more variety in how you can approach things.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Can't tell if you are actually trying to have a shallow or deep conversation about choice.
It seems like you are saying you don't like things to be so obvious and you like to figure out things on your own.

I just picked up Sniper Elite 4, which is supposedly the best one according to the SE subreddit, and I'm running into the same problem.

They give you mini open worlds but I'm constantly asking myself why I chose one direction over another. I can go NE and knock over that military post, or I can head W and knock over a different post...there's no difference. There's nothing interesting about the choices they give me. It's just bleh.

This is a problem I see in a ton of games. A problem that can, and should be solved.

 

[sigmaZ]

I just picked up Sniper Elite 4, which is supposedly the best one according to the SE subreddit, and I'm running into the same problem.

They give you mini open worlds but I'm constantly asking myself why I chose one direction over another. I can go NE and knock over that military post, or I can head W and knock over a different post...there's no difference. There's nothing interesting about the choices they give me. It's just bleh.

This is a problem I see in a ton of games. A problem that can, and should be solved.

It's one of the hard parts of game design. The more open you actually make it the more programming is actually required because you have to account for all possible outcomes. This is why open ended games are often buggy af. The trick is you have to design the levels or areas with the purpose of the interaction in mind. Open world games forgo this approach for the most part and load the world with filler content to account for the large empty spaces. A lot of players are happy enough though with playstyles to compensate which is why most open world games have player builds which can slightly alter the gameplay experiences even if the outcomes are mainly the insane.