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[bender]

Counterpoint: We should be scared. Very scared.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

And you still don't get it. Many GaaS are designed around taking up all of your time, making sure you play nothing but that. It leaves less times for other GaaS that try to do the same.

I wonder if anyone following this conversation can explain this to Guilty_AI . Maybe I'm typing in a foreign language. I'll try one more time...

Your statement is true. I've said this repeatedly. However, it has always been true. It was just as true in 2013 as it is in 2023. In that 10 year span, multiplayer has exploded in popularity + revenue WHICH MEANS...you're missing a vital part of the equation. This is why following the data is so much more effective than following made up narratives that feel good in the moment.

There are more. Genshin Impact, Honkai Star Rail, both released in the last few years, thats 3 already. Can you think of a single fully MP GaaS that reached the height of those released after 2020? I can only think of one and it still wasn't as profitable as those others.

If one is accused of cherry picking, picking two more cherries is...a strategy...I suppose.

Because GaaS is vastly most successful in the mobile space than on console/pcs. More suckers there. Its impossible to talk about it without refering mobile .

Here, since you seem to love charts

I don't love charts, I love accuracy. SuperData was notoriously inaccurate and was shut down years ago. We have companies like EA, PlayStation, and Ubisoft on record explaining how much more revenue Live Service makes and how much they expect it to grow in the future.




Important to note: In 2015, Steam had 8.2 million concurrent players. In 2018, that number doubled to 17 million concurrent players. In January of 2023, that number rose to 33 million concurrent players. I'm sorry, but Live Service sling shotted past SP years ago. The gap will only grow over the next 10 years.

Yet the most profitable form of gaming involves staring at a tiny screen and matching figure patterns by yourself.

This conversation revolves around core gaming. The fact that mobile is considerably bigger than the console and PC core Live Service market, which is considerably larger than the console and PC SP market, isn't particularly relevant. Hence, why so few people at NeoGAF talk mobile gaming.

It's like saying "The Chevy Corvette is outselling the Porshe 911 at a considerable margin" and your retort is to bring up the fact that the Toyota Rav4 is selling better than the Corvette. Let's stick the topic we're actually discussing.

And where are those games? And why are they losing to the likes of Genshin Impact, a game you can play entirely by your lonesome self?

They're not. The most popular games of today are overwhelmingly multiplayer. If you move goalposts to a specific date, you'll look better, but not when I've already said upward trends are not a smooth line. It's also important to note that neither Genshin Impact or Honkai Star Rail are as popular as Fortnite, Warzone, Apex, RS Siege etc... (on console+PC). Those two games don't do particularly well with the core gamer.

Through this entire discussion you've yet to cite a single successful MP GaaS released after 2020.

I will gladly list 10+ successful GAAS games released after 2020, but you need to answer a few question first. It takes two willing participants to play Tennis.

 

[Felessan]

I don't disagree with this; you have a huge and valid point... My Gen Alpha (12 year old) spends easily as much annually on fortnite, as I do on all my games combined. He cannot play SP story driven games (unless I co-op with him) he has to play social games with his friends. So it only gets worse after Gen Z.
Having said that though.. He's still in school, has friends from sports teams, cousins, etc. that he can play with.... What happens when they all grow up and move on. I think gaming habits change with age as does the social aspect of it, and your example group is too young to say this is their future... I agree it's the gaming future of "young" people sure, technology has allowed it to be like never before... But Gen Z will not always be young people.

This is what I always point out when this kind of discussion came up.
Current core players (age 25-35) are players that "formed" (age 5-20) when SP were a king and it formed their preferencies. This is the source of all the hate for gaas on forums. Younger generations incline to mmo(gaas)-style games, and it will affect future gaming.
And hope that in adult are preferencies will drastically change - highly unlikely. I know quite a few people who started playing mud/mmo games in early age, around 15 (we had a large crowd of enthusiasts back in 90s). Now they are 40+ and even though they play SP games, but preferencies of playing social heavy games remains, though now in casual style.

And you still don't get it. Many GaaS are designed around taking up all of your time, making sure you play nothing but that. It leaves less times for other GaaS that try to do the same.

Have you ever played modern GaaS games like Genshin? It's designed to have player spend 30-60 mins a day beyond after recent content is finished. There are literally nothing to do after that.
And it's done deliberately to stop and restrict super-hardcore crowd to spend all days in game. You have more to do in usual MP/MMO than in Gaas.
Because accessability is easy and the danger of no-life is real - as a result the threat from regulators is big and companies toned down engagement to something like 2-3 hours/day for a period of content patch. It's still keeps it relatively high for most people be interested and not hit heavily this draught window, and hard capped to not get hard ctiticizm from regulators.

There are more. Genshin Impact, Honkai Star Rail, both released in the last few years, thats 3 already. Can you think of a single fully MP GaaS that reached the height of those released after 2020? I can only think of one and it still wasn't as profitable as those others.

Social part in Genshin is huge. Both in-game and out-of-game. It's just not a gameplay one. 14-years old come to each other (or coop dungeons) to show off their characters or chat all the time.

 

[Felessan]

Through this entire discussion you've yet to cite a single successful MP GaaS released after 2020.

ToF earns 400+ mil and it's bona fide MMO

They're not. The most popular games of today are overwhelmingly multiplayer. If you move goalposts to a specific date, you'll look better, but not when I've already said upward trends are not a smooth line. It's also important to note that neither Genshin Impact or Honkai Star Rail are as popular as Fortnite, Warzone, Apex, RS Siege etc... (on console+PC). Those two games don't do particularly well with the core gamer.

We have no numbers for Genshin. Total playerbase is similar to Apex and Warzone. But the split is mystery and I wouldn't be so sure that PC+Console split is much different. Almost certainly console is a small part and mostly driven by Japan, by PC is another story.
The difference between Genshin and Warzone is East vs West. Consoles are not so popular in Asia outside Japan (but in Japan these games do quite well on PS), so what remains is s PC or hybrid PC+mobile play. And PC data for game not even on steam is a unknown.

 

[Danjin44]

This thread convinced even more that GaaS is piece of shit and I don’t want it any where close to my SP games.

its literally cancer to gaming industry.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

This thread convinced even more that GaaS is piece of shit and I don’t want it any where close to my SP games.

its literally cancer to gaming industry.

What new information did this thread present to you to push your opinion in that direction?

 

[Danjin44]

What new information did this thread present to you to push your opinion in that direction?

This obsessive over ”social” gaming and more importantly why would I want something that makes my experience worse?

Again games like Armored Core VI gives me EVERYTHING from get go and I can play the game completely offline and have fucking blast. That’s what I want out of my games, called “social gaming” can kiss my ass.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

This obsessive over ”social” gaming and more importantly why would I want something that makes my experience worse?

Again games like Armored Core VI gives me EVERYTHING from get go and I can play the game completely offline and have fucking blast. That’s what I want out of my games, called “social gaming” can kiss my ass.

I read this and I think of people in 1972 saying "Pong gives me EVERYTHING i want! That's all I want out of my games! I don't need characters who aren't platforms, moving left and right, bouncing a ball back and forth!"

I also struggle with understanding the inability for so many people to talk observed trends and evolution without passing them through their "I like X type of game". It's like watching a David Attenborough documentary where he complains about having to cover Penguins because he likes Monkeys. Can we just observe nature without personal bias?

 

[Danjin44]

I also struggle with understanding the inability for so many people to talk observed trends and evolution without passing them through their "I like X type of game". It's like watching a David Attenborough documentary where he complains about having to cover Penguins because he likes Monkeys. Can we just observe nature without personal bias?

I dont give rat ass what is the fucking "trend", at end of the day the reason I play video games is to have fun, it my entire reason getting to gaming in the first place and to me GaaS is opposite of that, it made to make companies more money rather than making my experience better.

If that their idea "evolution" then they can take that and......

 

[Felessan]

This thread convinced even more that GaaS is piece of shit and I don’t want it any where close to my SP games.
its literally cancer to gaming industry.

I consider FF11, WoW and FF14 the best things happened to gaming. They brought massive changes to mechanics, world-building, storytelling etc (because they have m0ney to do it in the first place).
You know what - they all gaas per se.

This obsessive over ”social” gaming and more importantly why would I want something that makes my experience worse?

People do like to socialize in general. It only makes games better (for many).

 

[Fredrik]

No thanks. The critical point here is 90% of the time i don't want other human beings in my games.

Make that 100% and you’re like me. People complain about brain dead AI in single player games and characters walking around back and forth doing odd things. Well I tried Star Citizen and real people there were running around like crazy in nothing but the underwear and jumping over tables and chairs and each other and just made the whole thing seem like a chaotic joke.
Plus I’ll rather take a ”Sarah disliked that” than someone screaming that I should kill myself or whatever.

 

[Danjin44]

I consider FF11, WoW and FF14 the best things happened to gaming. They brought massive changes to mechanics, world-building, storytelling etc (because they have m0ney to do it in the first place).
You know what - they all gaas per se.


People do like to socialize in general. It only make game better (for many).

Not for me, I already socialize with family, friends and co-workers, gaming is my only time that I can have it to myself, I dont need other people interfere with that.

If you enjoy shit like that then more power to you but I dont need that crap in my SP games.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

This obsessive over ”social” gaming and more importantly why would I want something that makes my experience worse?

Again games like Armored Core VI gives me EVERYTHING from get go and I can play the game completely offline and have fucking blast. That’s what I want out of my games, called “social gaming” can kiss my ass.

Just curious, what's your opinion on couch co-op?

 

[Danjin44]

Just curious, what's your opinion on couch co-op?

I dont care for it, I did that with my little brother with Mario Kart but thats it.

I have more fun playing games alone, I can take my own pace and immerse myself to game's atmosphere.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I dont care for it, I did that with my little brother with Mario Kart but thats it.

I have more playing games alone, I can take my own pace and observes to game atmosphere.

There will be more and more multiplayer games where you will be able to play at your own pace and observe the games atmosphere. That's literally the entire point of the OP.

 

[Felessan]

Not for me, I already socialize with family, friends and co-workers, gaming is my only time that I can have it to myself, I dont need other people interfere with that.
If you enjoy shit like that then more power to you but I dont need that crap in my SP games.

In many games it's optional. You should be really allergic to people to be sensitive to people running around with no contact with you.
It's like games converge to reality - you can socialize with people or you can ignore them and play solo just fine (mostly).

 

[Killjoy-NL]

I dont care for it, I did that with my little brother with Mario Kart but thats it.

I have more playing games alone, I can take my own pace and observes to game atmosphere.

Fair enough.

I do get what your saying. Most games I play are sp as well. I even play FFXIV solo, except obviously for the dungeons/raids as you need to group for that, but I use the Duty Finder for that. Same goes for Destiny 2.

I do think it GaaS and mp in general are important, if at least to fill in the gaps between sp releases.

Singleplayer games can only entertain me for a limited time.
Personally, Idc about replayability either. Sp games to me are one and done experiences.

 

[Danjin44]

In many games it's optional. You should be really allergic to people to be sensitive to people running around with no contact with you.
It's like games converge to reality - you can socialize with people or you can ignore them and play solo just fine (mostly).

Or I can play games like Amored Core and Elden Ring, even tho it has online mode they still gives you option to play them offline......crazy right?

I do think it GaaS and mp in general are important, if at least to fill in the gaps between sp releases.

GaaS game can exists and I can ignore it like I do with sports games, but I dont want that shit in my SP games.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

GaaS game exists and I can ignore it like I do with sports games, but I dont want that shit in my SP games.

That's fair, but I seriously don't think anyone has to fear GaaS taking over singleplayer games.

It all seems like a fabricated issue and some gamers having a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[Z O N E]

GAAS is fine if you develop 1 or 2 and use to help fund other games. But the difference with Sony is they have, what, 15? GAAS in development or something like that. That's just an insane amount. It's clear what path they have, especially given the fact that we now just heard they're remastering TLOU Part 2, which to me is just making me annoyed seeing the word "remastered" at this point.

 

[Felessan]

Or I can play games like Amored Core and Elden Ring, even tho it has online mode they still gives you option to play them offline......crazy right?

You can, but you have a high chance to become an obsolete minority,
Funny reference - turnbased wargames crowd complained to RTS crowd of kicking them out to oblivion, until RTS crowd itself became obsolete minority.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

GAAS is fine if you develop 1 or 2 and use to help fund other games. But the difference with Sony is they have, what, 15? GAAS in development or something like that. That's just an insane amount. It's clear what path they have, especially given the fact that we now just heard they're remastering TLOU Part 2, which to me is just making me annoyed seeing the word "remastered" at this point.

We don't even know what all these 15 GaaS titles are.

Likely a lot of different genres and a gradual focus on the few that become a success.

 

[Danjin44]

You can, but you have a high chance to become an obsolete minority,

Thankfully there are developers out there who makes games for "minority" like me.

 

[Z O N E]

We don't even know what all these 15 GaaS titles are.

Likely a lot of different genres and a gradual focus on the few that become a success.

To be fair, even if we take out 10 of them, that's still 5 live service games... That's just insane. These live service games then need a team to continually pump out stuff, so that takes people away from SP projects.

Also, if those other 10 fail, then we won't be seeing another game from those devs in years, so it just throws off a lot of development for the "hope" of having a successful GAAS title.

 

[Felessan]

Thankfully there are developers out there who makes games for "minority" like me.

Like turn-based wargames. They still exist.
You'll have just to tone done your expectations. In worst case to somewhere of super-niche B-tier. Not AAA budgets some other genres enjoy.

 

[devilNprada]

And hope that in adult are preferencies will drastically change - highly unlikely. I know quite a few people who started playing mud/mmo games in early age, around 15 (we had a large crowd of enthusiasts back in 90s). Now they are 40+ and even though they play SP games, but preferencies of playing social heavy games remains, though now in casual style.

Ok well hopefully my kid will mature and fighting and insulting each other over Fortnite won't be quit as entertaining to him at some point!
If at 40+ he's still doing that with the same 50ish friends... I have done something wrong!

 

[Danjin44]

In worst case to somewhere of super-niche B-tier. Not AAA budgets some other genres enjoy.

You do know I enjoy games for devs like Vanillaware...Do you think I give a flying fuck if the game AAA or not! Heck entire Armored Core series is your classic AA games that I highly enjoy.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

To be fair, even if we take out 10 of them, that's still 5 live service games... That's just insane. These live service games then need a team to continually pump out stuff, so that takes people away from SP projects.

Also, if those other 10 fail, then we won't be seeing another game from those devs in years, so it just throws off a lot of development for the "hope" of having a successful GAAS title.

Sony's major studios have multiple teams.
And it's not like Sony can't expand their studios if necessary.

And really, at most you'd miss out on games that never existed in the first place.

 

[Felessan]

Ok well hopefully my kid will mature and fighting and insulting each other over Fortnite won't be quit as entertaining to him at some point!
If at 40+ he's still doing that with the same 50ish friends... I have done something wrong!

You miss reference of being more casual. It's understandable because you have little idea what i'm talking about.
It's understandable - you have no experience of how "fortnite player" mature over time.
At mine time in MMO - at expected age of 22-25 - you'll be kicked outright from any serious guild if you can't behave properly, properly manage your emotions, listen to commands and be sane even in emotionaly sensitive situation. No real age restriction, but if you are 16 yo and cant' follow rules - you are out.
Every social structure have pretty much similar rules. And mature pretty much similary. Those guys that behave like teenagers in fortnite when there was 15 - they will not behave the same when they hit 25 - they will do a structure more suitable for their age.

You do know I enjoy games for devs like Vanillaware...Do you think I give a flying fuck if the game AAA or not! Heck entire Armored Core series is your classic AA games that I highly enjoy.

You should really expand your horizon to what "B-tier super-niche" means. Vanillaware is a god status compared to.

 

[Danjin44]

You should really expand your horizon to what "B-tier super-niche" means. Vanillaware is a god status compared to.

My point was I dont give rat ass if the game expensive AAA game or not, This gen I enjoyed more AA games over AAA ones.

 

[Felessan]

My point was I dont give rat ass if the game expensive AAA game or not, This gen I enjoyed more AA games over AAA ones.

And my point is there is low below low. I don't really follow them for last 10-15 years, but the genre was in really pityfull state last time i checked.
AA is only bad when you look up to AAA.
If you look to whole scale where AAA is expensive games and F- is games made deliberately bad, AA is a super nice choice. Compared to anything of B-C-D tier (you can look 1$ new games on Steam for these), AA is a godly tier quality games.

 

[devilNprada]

You miss reference of being more casual. It's understandable because you have little idea what i'm talking about.
It's understandable - you have no experience of how "fortnite player" mature over time.
At mine time in MMO - at expected age of 22-25 - you'll be kicked outright from any serious guild if you can't behave properly, properly manage your emotions, listen to commands and be sane even in emotionaly sensitive situation. No real age restriction, but if you are 16 yo and cant' follow rules - you are out.
Every social structure have pretty much similar rules. And mature pretty much similary. Those guys that behave like teenagers in fortnite when there was 15 - they will not behave the same when they hit 25 - they will do a structure more suitable for their age.

LOL - how would you even know what I do and don't understand, know and don't know..

Current core players (age 25-35) are players that "formed" (age 5-20) when SP were a king and it formed their preferencies.

You conveniently include the largest actual population demographic in your range (30-34).

Younger generations incline to mmo(gaas)-style games, and it will affect future gaming.
And hope that in adult are preferencies will drastically change - highly unlikely.

And now you seem to be completely contradicting yourself....

 

[Felessan]

And now you seem to be completely contradicting yourself....

Where?
My point is that dynamic is unfavorable for SP games:
1. Preferencies formed at young age and doesn't drastically change over time.
2. Current core gamers preferencies were formed when SP games prevail
3. Current young players preferencies are mostly gaas games
4. 10-20 years in the future these young players will be new core, and current core gamers will be gradually phased out. This will put SP games further under pressure.

 

[devilNprada]

Where?
My point is that dynamic is unfavorable for SP games:
1. Preferencies formed at young age and doesn't drastically change over time.
2. Current core gamers preferencies were formed when SP games prevail
3. Current young players preferencies are mostly gaas games
4. 10-20 years in the future these young players will be new core, and current core gamers will be gradually phased out. This will put SP games further under pressure.

You seem to miss my entire point my apologies for going about it indirectly...
As people "GROW", start careers, families etc. available time becomes the constraint.

Games games like Fortnite are great for that because you can get on and at least a couple of your 50 or so contacts are likely to be playing, but try completing a BG3 play through with the same group of 4 people.
It is going to be damn near impossible because someone will always have something else going on.
Hence why SP will always exist.

As evidenced here:

Now they are 40+ and even though they play SP games, but preferencies of playing social heavy games remains, though now in casual style.

You make this comment yet are so addiment that gaming habits don't change. My entire original point was saying this is exactly the change that they make.

Having said that though.. He's still in school, has friends from sports teams, cousins, etc. that he can play with.... What happens when they all grow up and move on. I think gaming habits change with age as does the social aspect of it, and your example group is too young to say this is their future... I agree it's the gaming future of "young" people sure, technology has allowed it to be like never before... But Gen Z will not always be young people.

There is a "REALITY" young people have not quite grasped yet at this stage in their life.
Edit: Actually I think kids play them so much because they are FTP, more so than they are there preferred genre.

 

[Felessan]

As people "GROW", start careers, families etc. available time becomes the constraint.

There are no big difference between gaas and non-gaas games in terms of time being a constraint when you go older.
The majority of modern gaas games (ff14, destiny, genshin etc) structured in a way where you can scale your engagement from 3+ hours a day active social engaged gaming to 20 mins a week purely sole play. Casual players are backbone for many gaas and they address this properly (Genshin has like 95% of them).

Games games like Fortnite are great for that because you can get on and at least a couple of your 50 or so contacts are likely to be playing, but try completing a BG3 play through with the same group of 4 people.
It is going to be damn near impossible because someone will always have something else going on.
Hence why SP will always exist.

There are a big difference between "exist" and "have the same relevance as they have now". I doubt that indi will go anywhere, they are haven for niche players. But AAA games require budget, and budget requires specific size of target audience, and quite large one. And expected target audience will shrink as more and more current "SP core" will be replaced with "gaas core".

You make this comment yet are so addiment that gaming habits don't change. My entire original point was saying this is exactly the change that they make.

Yes, because I haven't seen it in practice. People who had 80% online, 20% SP time split now have like 60/40 at most. And this 40% is mostly biggest AAA "movie-like" games, because gaas for a long time were quite weak with storytelling (and it changes now quite rapidly).

 

[Neff]

I think recent years have shown that we should fear and continue to protest publishers wasting talent, money and time on the GaaS lottery.

 

[Katajx]

There are a lot of gamers in the pool, but I think supporting them and continuing to generate revenue 6 months post launch is too much of a challenge for most.

I think it’s hard to keep gamers interested and in the ecosystem more than a month or two without getting bored.

If it has a disastrous launch and they are mostly addressing bugs and not introducing big or meaningful content in 6 months or so this is further exacerbated.

Look at Marvel’s Avengers, Halo Infinite, Battlefront 2, and the last Battlefield. It is really difficult to compete in the space that Fortnite and COD do, and there is increasing competition every day.

I’m sure there is a lot of growth and en entire chunk of that being PC centered or PC only atm.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Single player GaaS games? Do they even exist? Unless you count expansion packs/DLC. But that never goes further than a few months. They are inherently games you play and move on.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I see it as a fad. Majority of gaas fail, so will the mega sony gaas strategy outside very few for example and then it is single player aaa games mostly as usual.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Single player GaaS games? Do they even exist? Unless you count expansion packs/DLC. But that never goes further than a few months.

Been going since 2012, still receives updates and expansions to this day.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I have to bump this thread.

For the past month, I've read dozens of comments that go "I don't usually play Live Service multiplayer but I finally broke down and bought Helldivers 2. I'm loving it." Even Colin Moriarty is playing a bunch of it and he avoids multiplayer like the plague.

Helldivers 2 seems to support the concept created in the OP making this thread one of the all time greats. What a legend!