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[entremet]

Conventional wisdom says one reason so many hackers seem to hail from Russia and parts of the former Soviet Union is that these countries have traditionally placed a much greater emphasis than educational institutions in the West on teaching information technology in middle and high schools, and yet they lack a Silicon Valley-like pipeline to help talented IT experts channel their skills into high-paying jobs. This post explores the first part of that assumption by examining a breadth of open-source data.

The supply side of that conventional wisdom seems to be supported by an analysis of educational data from both the U.S. and Russia, which indicates there are several stark and important differences between how American students are taught and tested on IT subjects versus their counterparts in Eastern Europe.

Compared to the United States there are quite a few more high school students in Russia who choose to specialize in information technology subjects. One way to measure this is to look at the number of high school students in the two countries who opt to take the advanced placement exam for computer science.

According to an analysis (PDF) by The College Board, in the ten years between 2005 and 2016 a total of 270,000 high school students in the United States opted to take the national exam in computer science (the ”Computer Science Advanced Placement" exam).

Compare that to the numbers from Russia: A 2014 study (PDF) on computer science (called ”Informatics" in Russia) by the Perm State National Research University found that roughly 60,000 Russian students register each year to take their nation's equivalent to the AP exam — known as the ”Unified National Examination." Extrapolating that annual 60,000 number over ten years suggests that more than twice as many people in Russia — 600,000 — have taken the computer science exam at the high school level over the past decade.

In ”A National Talent Strategy," an in-depth analysis from Microsoft Corp. on the outlook for information technology careers, the authors warn that despite its critical and growing importance computer science is taught in only a small minority of U.S. schools. The Microsoft study notes that although there currently are just over 42,000 high schools in the United States, only 2,100 of them were certified to teach the AP computer science course in 2011.

Fascinating stuff and very prescient given recent news.

https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/06/why-so-many-top-hackers-hail-from-russia/

 

[Tagyhag]

Man we are in for a rough wake up call someday.

It's going to be Sputnik all over again.

 

[entremet]

Man we are in for a rough wake up call someday.

It's going to be Sputnik all over again.

The US imports most of its IT talent. I use the broad term of IT there (development as a whole, not IT the department)

However, with the idiot in office right now, that may be a big issue.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Well, speaking as a mathematician, Russia is known for its mathematics and used to be among the best in the past.

There is an aversion for mathematics and science in the US, not so much in Russia. The culture around academics is also different. While one can assume most students who major in STEM in the US are in it for the money (which is understandable in our economy), I don't think the same can be said for students in Russia. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong though.

Students over there like to do math and science for the sake of it. It's very hard to compete against someone who doesn't care about the monetary value of their education. Computer science is just a branch of mathematics, so it makes sense for students to carry over that pride to CS and do well in it.

My two cents.

 

[Skellig Gra]

My next door neighbor is from Russia and he works at Google as a software engineer.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

One of the best ways to get a government job in Russia.

And if that doesn't pan out, then good way to steal money online with a lax legal system.

 

[entremet]

Well, speaking as a mathematician, Russia is known for its mathematics and used to be among the best in the past.

There is an aversion for mathematics and science in the US, not so much in Russia. The culture around academics is also different. While one can assume most students who major in STEM in the US are in it for the money (which is understandable in our economy), I don't think the same can be said for students in Russia. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong though.

Students over there like to do math and science for the sake of it. It's very hard to compete against someone who doesn't care about the monetary value of their education. Computer science is just a branch of mathematics, so it makes sense for students to carry over that pride to CS and do well in it.

My two cents.

Interesting. I've always wondered were we get our aversion to Math and Science here.

 

[zeemumu]

We had graphic design and a class for basic computer skills (learning word, excel, fast typing without looking, etc.)

 

[gaugebozo]

Well, speaking as a mathematician, Russia is known for its mathematics and used to be among the best in the past.

There is an aversion for mathematics and science in the US, not so much in Russia. The culture around academics is also different. While one can assume most students who major in STEM in the US are in it for the money (which is understandable in our economy) , I don't think the same can be said for students in Russia. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong though.

Students over there like to do math and science for the sake of it. It's very hard to compete against someone who doesn't care about the monetary value of their education.

My two cents.

I work with many Russian mathematicians, and this is exactly the sense I get. In particular, one of the best tech schools is in Siberia. I'm just imagining MIT being in Wyoming or Alaska. It would never happen. In Russia, it seems like math is valued in most places and seen as a way to advance the country.

 

[Ryuukan]

Interesting. I've always wondered were we get our aversion to Math and Science here.

decades of pop culture railing against it + evangelicals

 

[tokkun]

Another important element not mentioned in the article is that Russian hackers can often get away without facing prosecution as long as they are only attacking foreign targets.

 

[kirblar]

Interesting. I've always wondered were we get our aversion to Math and Science here.

Rural agrarianism and poverty. It boils down to them seeing education as a threat to take their kids away from their communities and working to undermine/discredit it.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

In the US I got suspended from school for 'electronic tampering' (and was threatened with possible legal suit) when I sent popup messages through the network to the admins.

In Russia I could create a botnet and lease it out for DDoSes, and as long as the target was outside Russia, particularly the US or western Europe, nobody would have cared.

 

[entremet]

decades of pop culture railing against it + evangelicals

Rural agrarianism and poverty. It boils down to them seeing education as a threat to take their kids away from their communities and working to undermine/discredit it.

I keep forgetting that our federal government has also always favored the rural vote disproportionately. That has a huge effect too.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

They must have a disproportionate number of 400 pound dudes.

You'd think America would run away with this demographic, but I guess you'd be wrong.

 

[shira]

Putin has the best cyber

 

[hobozero]

If they are really top hackers, how do we know where they're from?

By definition, we have no idea who the top hackers in the world are.

 

[Syriel]

American high schools teach IT and coding skills?

That would be a first. Typically, any students interested in that sort of thing have to seek it out on their own.

It's def not a school staple.

 

[Skellig Gra]

American high schools teach IT and coding skills?

That would be a first. Typically, any students interested in that sort of thing have to seek it out on their own.

It's def not a school staple.

What is a staple? Our education system is horrible.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

I work with many Russian mathematicians, and this is exactly the sense I get. In particular, one of the best tech schools is in Siberia. I'm just imagining MIT being in Wyoming or Alaska. It would never happen. In Russia, it seems like math is valued in most places and seen as a way to advance the country.

Yes. We take more pride in sports than our academics.

Another important element not mentioned in the article is that Russian hackers can often get away without facing prosecution as long as they are only attacking foreign targets.

Oh definitely.

decades of pop culture railing against it + evangelicals

Rural agrarianism and poverty. It boils down to them seeing education as a threat to take their kids away from their communities and working to undermine/discredit it.

Sad but true.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

Interesting. I've always wondered were we get our aversion to Math and Science here.

Not sure about math but we know where the aversion from science comes from: conservatives and the right-wing.

 

[boatwave]

Man we are in for a rough wake up call someday.

It's going to be Sputnik all over again.

I think the Russian hack of our election was the Sputnik moment.

 

[kirblar]

American high schools teach IT and coding skills?

That would be a first. Typically, any students interested in that sort of thing have to seek it out on their own.

It's def not a school staple.

The big problem in US high schools is that they're putting everyone on the liberal arts college track, and you have to intervene to pull yourself off it if it doesn't fit you. (for trades, etc.)

 

[Barzul]

Isn't the fact that there seems to be less consequences for their actions in Russia than for hackers in America a factor?

 

[entremet]

Isn't the fact that there seems to be less consequences for their actions in Russia than for hackers in America a factor?

Yeah, someone mentioned it above. That's also a lot of practice lol.

 

[Tenck]

American high schools teach IT and coding skills?

That would be a first. Typically, any students interested in that sort of thing have to seek it out on their own.

It's def not a school staple.

Very schools I've seen teach it. I didn't even know it was a thing till about 4 years ago when a friend of mine casually mentioned it. Wish I had that opportunity at my high school.

 

[Ricky_R]

fsociety is American, so...

 

[louiedog]

American high schools teach IT and coding skills?

That would be a first. Typically, any students interested in that sort of thing have to seek it out on their own.

It's def not a school staple.

My school had an elective to learn coding skills when I was there many years ago. It was bad though. We were just copying code directly from a book and anyone who took it somewhat seriously was as skilled as the teacher who was telling us which pages to copy each day by the 3rd week. You'd learn more in an hour of doing Codecademy than what we did for a semester.

 

[Purple Cheeto]

American high schools teach IT and coding skills?

That would be a first. Typically, any students interested in that sort of thing have to seek it out on their own.

It's def not a school staple.

My HS had classes for IT in the early 00s. I took none of them and ended up with a degree in CS. A friend of mine took all of them and he's now a Sysadmin.

 

[Wag]

Putin has the best cyber

They're all 400lb guys.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Isn't the fact that there seems to be less consequences for their actions in Russia than for hackers in America a factor?

I'd guess so. Some kid in Canada with Russian connections just got busted. The three Russians he was working with? Probably won't be extradited. As such they can continue to hone their skills.

 

[slit]

Man we are in for a rough wake up call someday.

It's going to be Sputnik all over again.

Sputnik worked out well for us. It got us on our toes.

 

[PeskyToaster]

American high schools teach IT and coding skills?

That would be a first. Typically, any students interested in that sort of thing have to seek it out on their own.

It's def not a school staple.

My public high school had programming, web design, CAD, and A+ classes. Not enough to get certified but you'd go through that kind of material.

 

[Kieli]

Good luck hiring competent CS grads to teach in elementary/highschool when even prestigious universities are having a hard time holding onto talent. These universities easily pay 5 - 10x more than an entry elementary teaching position would, and that's not enough.

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

Graduated high school in 2000 and our computer based education began and ended at keyboarding.

With how much high level programming skills pay I couldn't see myself gaining those skills and then getting 40k a year to teach primary school.

 

[Animator]

My next door neighbor is from Russia and he works at Google as a software engineer.

You are already hacked.

 

[RoboGeorgeForeman]

I wish my HS had more IT offerings. We had a basic IT college prep course that taught networking, troubleshooting basics, winadmin'ing, and stuff like that but our only programming course was this weak VB WinForms (at least I think it was WinForms) course that never went beyond looping/conditionals.

Ended up completing my major in Comp Sci anyway, so I guess I can't complain.

 

[Kieli]

I wish my HS had more IT offerings. We had a basic IT college prep course that taught networking, troubleshooting basics, winadmin'ing, and stuff like that but our only programming course was this weak VB WinForms (at least I think it was WinForms) course that never went beyond looping/conditionals.

Ended up completing my major in Comp Sci anyway, so I guess I can't complain.

The people qualified to teach programming won't want to go through the hurdles of acquiring a graduate degree in education (minimum 1 year + practicum) and then spend the next couple of years on substitute-teaching stints just to start at 50k salary when they can earn 100k+ in Silicon Valley.

 

[perfectchaos007]

I have been wondering the same thing. Its like a breeding ground for hackers and computer viruses. Don't a lot of Crypto lockers originate from there?

 

[antonz]

I have been wondering the same thing. Its like a breeding ground for hackers and computer viruses. Don't a lot of Crypto lockers originate from there?

Yep the law is really the biggest part of it. Russia is the wild west when it comes to enforcement. As long as you don't fuck with Russia itself the Government pretty much doesn't care.

 

[witchedwiz]

Man we are in for a rough wake up call someday.

It's going to be Sputnik all over again.

Of course..
Most of the us it talents work in large corporate or are imported from abroad..
No country will offer to a top it specialist what say google will offer him, strangely enough..
So there you have it..
It experts are basically the equivalent to mercenary for desk job nowdays..

 

[willy_2]

a lot of it is fallout from the 90s and the chaos that ensued