Weeaboosuke
Member
Why not make it an option? The people hurt from matchmaking could turn it off in the menu or something and everybody wins.
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Why there is no matchmaking in Destiny's Raid
- Thread starter dcelw540
- Start date
Nah. It'd obviously be an optional thing that one could completely avoid forever, so I have yet to hear anything about its absence that makes sense.
Like I said, the only actual hurdle that I could think of is some technical problem for Bungie. There's really nothing other than that.
Because someone will get frustrated after trying the raid with 5 other people that have no idea what they are doing or zero previous raid experience , leave the raid, and never try one again.
Whereas if you are sherpa'd through a raid or two through a specific group that explicitly wants to play the raid, you are much more likely to enjoy the experience.
Seriously, some of y'all need to actually play Heroic Weekly matchmaking. Randoms quit out with even the super "raid-lite" mechanics of the Restorative Mind strike.
Why not make it an option? The people hurt from matchmaking could turn it off in the menu or something and everybody wins.
Optional modes still have an affect on a playlist or activity's overall health or image.
Was involved in matchmaking updates for Halo Reach and Halo 4. Even providing OPTIONAL objective modes that people could easily vote away would drop a playlist's population, because people didn't even want the chance of it happening. Optional content does have effects on your game.
wsoxfan1214
Banned
lol
It really doesn't. Anyone who has tried a Savage group will tell you that your chance of clearing is maybe 20%.
Maybe.
I would never, ever, ever matchmake into Hard Mode for KF.
FFXIV has a subscription. It's assumed people willing to pay double digit subscription fees to play a game per month are going to be a bit more invested in that game's endgame than someone who can easily play Destiny, shelve it for 3 months, and come back with no need to re-subscribe or re-level for a couple more games, shelve it again, etc.
joecanada
Member
No your ignoring the most important point that has been stated numerous times. Sure 100% of all options is a bonus. But we don't know what Bungie list of priorities are for resources and 2 of your own 4 options point to a huge waste of money to implement a possibility of a failed mechanism. I'm not against it but I don't blame Bungie for not doing it either.
I've sat in vog with gaffers for 4 hours straight, no way that experience magically gets better with randoms. But for old content where you are all overlevelled I could see it going down
The idea that you can't have matchmaking so people won't be 'disposable' is ridiculous, since it's just driven people to use out-of-game sites to coordinate with people who are equally unknown to them.
Then there's the "can't have matchmaking...guess I'll hang out in the tower for a while and randomly invite everyone that walks by" guy. Nope, nothing 'disposable' about his teammates.
Then there's the "can't have matchmaking...guess I'll hang out in the tower for a while and randomly invite everyone that walks by" guy. Nope, nothing 'disposable' about his teammates.
The vast majority of Destiny players will rarely be in an instance where they can be "sherpa'd" through. The game has sold over 10 million copies, and the amount of those that either have 5 friends at their disposal, or are savvy enough to head to forums/LFG, is just minuscule.
So for the majority of players, they just see locked content. That's it. And that pisses them off, justifiably so, especially when the reasons hinge on the assumption (and at the end of the day, it is an assumption) that it won't work for them.
Ask them if they want matchmaking to at least try it out, even if it's the least ideal way to play, and see if they say no. It's not our job to "protect" them from unideal situations when
a) Most people simply won't be able to put themselves under ideal circumstances, and
b) The tech and ability to implement matchmaking is completely, 100% within Bungie's reach.
JHoNNy1OoO
Member
You might not meet other groups requirements but there is nothing stopping you from posting on that same LFG Board and saying your exact circumstances. There are thousands of people in your same exact scenario that would happily join you. It is pointless to worry about meeting others requirements, just create your own.
The vast majority of Destiny players aren't interested in raiding in the first place, matchmaking or not.
Raids are high level end game content.
They are intentionally not meant for everyone, and the game is built to provide activities for every level of investment and complexity.
Even World of Warcraft has roughly around 15% raid participation (looking for raids, then completing them to the end)
zackmorris
Member
But the alternative for some people is not being able to play at all.
That's not true. Anyone playing Taken King is level 40 now, and are still hilariously kept out of the level 26 VoG. Hell, that raid won't even get them worthwhile gear anymore, but they still can't even play it. Which is incredible.
I think as a general rule, when Bungie adds an activity or feature to a game, they do so with design principles to try and make sure as many people have a good experience with it as possible. Raid matchmaking would fail that test miserably; you don't add something to the game that would create a terrible experience for a huge swath of people who play it. Some people finding a way to enjoy it is not sufficient, because most would not. Teams that come together on their own volition can burn hours on encounters learning the mechanics and how to work together. Matchmaking is and will always be a bad idea in Destiny's raids.
Rather than water the raids down, I'd rather they do what they are doing, and add more interesting mechanics to the strikes. If anything, some of the new strikes on Heroic push up against the limits of what match made players can handle, and those are pretty basic mechanics.
It's 290 light, which is 10 levels below the max you can get to outside of the raid. The issue with VoG is not player level, but mechanics.
Rather than water the raids down, I'd rather they do what they are doing, and add more interesting mechanics to the strikes. If anything, some of the new strikes on Heroic push up against the limits of what match made players can handle, and those are pretty basic mechanics.
It's 290 light, which is 10 levels below the max you can get to outside of the raid. The issue with VoG is not player level, but mechanics.
You can't overlevel in Destiny like in other MMOs, and the Vault of Glass has very complex mechanics in it, especially for the end boss. We still regularly wipe running it on Hard.
While VoG and Crota don't give you end-game gear towards King's Fall, the gameplay complexity of those raids still remains, with maybe a sliver more breathing room than if you ran them when they were current.
edit: in fact, you are actually better off running the Vault with the Year 1 Vault weapons like Timepiece than Year 2 guns due to their Oracle killbuff.
Seth Enosh
Member
Anyone can find an instance where they can be sherpaed through the raid if they have access to a computer or smartphone.
We here at GAF do it all the time, there's even a weekly scheduled newbie raid that DestinyGAF puts on every week on ps4, and I've run with plenty of newbies on Xbox through our Xbox Bungie net clan or the100 group. Plus Reddit has an entire subreddit named DestinySherpas or something where newbies can link up to be walked through the raid by a pro.
The tech for matchmaking isn't there right now. Destiny matchmaking can't even ensure you get put in a strike with someone who has a microphone.
I think most people in here didn't read the article but Luke Smith says there that they are looking into creating in game LFG tools. That's the way forward for destiny, not just enabling the basic matchmaking support that the game has now for strikes and PvP.
Flying Toaster
Member
Since you seem to be knowledgeable in this area run random raids for people. Put your info out there on LFG and Reddit.
1- you cannot ask or require people to use mics.
Post results after a few trials.
CouchMaster
Member
Pretty much, The only reason I want them to add MM to raid is to see the stream of six randoms with no mics and co-ordination trying to dunk six relics and enter the portal, forget about doing actual raid. Its going to be hilarious as fuck.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Complex compared to what?
99% of other console shooters?
there is no mode in call of duty or Halo where part of your team is sent back in time, part of your team stays in the present, and then you have to shoot and kill oracles while someone dances around you cleansing you with an artifact they have to pick up, then bring it through a portal that the team in the present has to open for you from the other side, set up a titan weapons of light bubble, and then attack the boss with the artifact then do it again but with different gotchas, buffs, and debuffs potentially in play.
Again, and I've said this - I'm not saying it's the ideal method.
I'm just saying that to me, the reasons for it not existing are all a bit silly. Hell, I myself probably wouldn't even use matchmaking, I have no need. But people here show a startling lack of perspective in that there are an ungodly amount of people playing the game, an ungodly tiny percentage of them heading to Gaf/Reddit/LFG, etc.
I'm just saying that putting myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't have a ton of PSN friends who has put 200 hours into Destiny has exhausted every other piece of content in the game, and has rock solid gear; I Can completely sympathize with why they would continue to look at Vault of Glass and think to themselves "come the fuck on".
Plus, this thread has become all about Raids, when there's also shit like PoE and Nightfalls with are also invite-only. And I have done many a Nightfall without voice chat, it's completely fine. There's zero reason these don't have matchmaking. With Raids, there's at least a shred of logic to cling to with the mechanics. But Nightfalls might be tough, but they are completely doable with randoms.
SolicitorPirate
Member
I literally quoted you earlier in the thread and explained why I think Destiny is better without the option of matchmaking.
I didn't say none ;P
Anyway, this conversation is running in circles. I've explained why I think matchmaking should be a thing, people don't need to agree. Bungie clearly disagrees, and it's not happening anytime soon anyway, so whatever!
Avid Reading Horse
Member
LFG works sometimes, and fails miserably other times. The mix of random personalities is rough. Then you get the super shut-in types that don't want to talk on the mic and think they can just silently be carried through. Or the guy who demands everything is done 100% his way and heaps blame on everyone. Then there's the rage-quits. Yeah, it's not a great system itself.
But a simple matchmaking tool doesn't cut it at all, maybe something in-game with the amount of features of the LFG sites would work. Most importantly someone needs to be the fireteam leader, and in complete control of kicking people and finding more. Getting 6 players that will be able to go through the raid together at complete random would kind of be like winning the lottery.
But a simple matchmaking tool doesn't cut it at all, maybe something in-game with the amount of features of the LFG sites would work. Most importantly someone needs to be the fireteam leader, and in complete control of kicking people and finding more. Getting 6 players that will be able to go through the raid together at complete random would kind of be like winning the lottery.
NoHeDidn't
Member
I agree on both points matchmaking would help people to atleast experience the raids however it would lead to trolling,afkers etc.I just dont get the reasoning that playing with randoms is a horrible experience when raiding with lfg sites is literally raiding with randoms.
So a middle ground could be if you dont want matchmaking dont use it grab your fireteams buddies and go ham.It could easily be done the same way crucible is done you can go in with your fireteam full and avoid mm or go in and use matchmaking finds the missing members.
More options is never a bad choice as long as they dont undercut each other.
So a middle ground could be if you dont want matchmaking dont use it grab your fireteams buddies and go ham.It could easily be done the same way crucible is done you can go in with your fireteam full and avoid mm or go in and use matchmaking finds the missing members.
More options is never a bad choice as long as they dont undercut each other.
LFG sites are an implicit filter since
1) People are putting in the effort to register for the sites
2) People registering explicitly want to play the raid
3) People using LFG tend to already have completed the raid once with friends or have prior raiding experience from other games
SimpleGamer
Member
There should defiently be an option for matchmaking raids.
SolarMystic
Banned
I used to think they should have an option for matchmaking, but I have since backtracked.
Matchmaking would be near impossible to actually get a team together. Matchmaking for the heroic weeklies are even a bad experience and that's only 3 person fireteams. Nobody uses a mic, and a mic is essential even among elite raiders.
Matchmaking is an objectively bad idea for raids. However bungie should implement an in game grouping feature for raids.
Until then, Reddit fireteams and lfg work just as well, and I can usually find a good group in minutes.
Edit: the only way matchmaking could work is if they restricted using it to only people that meet the recommended light levels and had a mic plugged in.
Matchmaking would be near impossible to actually get a team together. Matchmaking for the heroic weeklies are even a bad experience and that's only 3 person fireteams. Nobody uses a mic, and a mic is essential even among elite raiders.
Matchmaking is an objectively bad idea for raids. However bungie should implement an in game grouping feature for raids.
Until then, Reddit fireteams and lfg work just as well, and I can usually find a good group in minutes.
Edit: the only way matchmaking could work is if they restricted using it to only people that meet the recommended light levels and had a mic plugged in.
Caayn
Member
Bungie and the Hardcore just don't seem to want it. I'd welcome the option, my group of friends that I play Destiny with isn't large enough to do raids, meaning that we are missing out on content of the game which bothers me a bit. I understand that the raids are hard, but at least give me the option to try it without needing to result to online forums to gather the neccesary amount of people.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Because those games don't try to be MMOs, that's just an asinine comparison.
Destiny raids compared to actual raids from other games are fairly simple.
I am 100% of the opinion that adding matchmaking for raids would be a certifiably bad idea.
You need 6 people who are on the same page. When it's your group of friends, someone being bad doesn't mean they immediately get kicked, or someone being slow to understand a mechanic doesn't mean they get kicked, the group works with that person.
It's much harder to give a shit about some random dude when you just want to get in, get your "drop for the week," and get out.
Additionally, the fact of the matter is that the only people who will use this is people on alts or who don't have a steady group. People with a steady group won't want to deal with the random variables brought on by new people, so they'll avoid it like the plague, which means most raiders will continue to play the way they do now, and it will only piss off the rest of the player base.
THAT'S the inherent risk. If they add this, they need to find a way to keep players in the raid, while allowing people to remove legitimately troublesome players, while also encouraging people to not leave at the drop of a hat, while also dealing with the blowback of a small portion of players who previously couldn't raid finding out that they're garbage at the game and "OMG RAID 2 HARD."
If they can find a way of solving these issues, then I'm all for it. But quite frankly, I don't think Bungie is smart enough to figure it out. Ultimately the solution they would use would be some form of nerf to the matchmade raid, that dropped lower level gear, and auto-temp bans for quitters/griefers/etc.
And dammit, if I can't live in a world where I can grief my raid members, I don't wanna be alive!
careless mango
Member
You need a group of very communicative players to be able to finish a raid, you don't get that with matchmaking. To be able to silently complete a raid everyone would have to be extremely competent and experienced which simply wouldn't happen in a matchmaking environment.
Call me elitist or dumb but without removing essentially everything that makes it interesting to play the raid matchmaking would be a complete waste of time. It is much smarter to do what theyve already done. Let you visit the physical areas without any of the mechanics in place during story missions in later dlc and such.
Implementing a smart lfg system could work though but that is NOT the same as matchmaking.
Call me elitist or dumb but without removing essentially everything that makes it interesting to play the raid matchmaking would be a complete waste of time. It is much smarter to do what theyve already done. Let you visit the physical areas without any of the mechanics in place during story missions in later dlc and such.
Implementing a smart lfg system could work though but that is NOT the same as matchmaking.
The Internet and Bungie keep telling me Raids are better without it. The playing with random isn't fun. My experience informs me this is bullshit. The Raids I've done have been my own matchmaking online and have all been essentially with randoms as a result. I'd estimate the majority of Raids are with randoms people have found themselves.
Therefore my common sense tells me Destiny was being rushed out, the story and design was in flux and new matchmaking code for Raids that would need to track progress and allow forming of your own groups via a lobby was deemed a step too far and Bungie just said "fuck it let them do it themselves: tell 'em it's more fun that way.
The Raids are clearly easily doable with 6 randoms with decent gear and if you have headphones. The answer as to why no matchmaking is clearly Bungie didn't want to do it themselves and, like much in launch Destiny, they chucked the effort over the wall to the players. Their reasons are merely excuses they knew enough people would accept and even propagate and defend for them.
Therefore my common sense tells me Destiny was being rushed out, the story and design was in flux and new matchmaking code for Raids that would need to track progress and allow forming of your own groups via a lobby was deemed a step too far and Bungie just said "fuck it let them do it themselves: tell 'em it's more fun that way.
The Raids are clearly easily doable with 6 randoms with decent gear and if you have headphones. The answer as to why no matchmaking is clearly Bungie didn't want to do it themselves and, like much in launch Destiny, they chucked the effort over the wall to the players. Their reasons are merely excuses they knew enough people would accept and even propagate and defend for them.
Collateral22
Member
Blueberries struggle to do the Echo Chamber strike with a simple point A to point B mechanic. I can't bare to imagine how bad raid matchmaking would be.
You could also ask why there was no campaign matchmaking in Halo 3 or why no matchmaking for Firefight in ODST despite other such modes like CoD's Zombies and Gears' Horde offering it for those modes. Seems like a Bungie thing that they'd rather you hop over to bungie.net and socialise with peeps there if you are unfortunate not have have any friends who play their games.
H3 and ODST didn't have matchmaking because the games didn't support it. They didn't even support anyone dropping out mid-game.
Because the raids all absolutely require communication via voice chat ( no, not because the mechanics are super hard or anything, simply because some things require people to communicate things to others for a section to succeed or require some basic organization ). 99% of Destiny players do not use voice chat because it is turned off by default. Imagine six of these people attempting King's Fall. Destiny also already has issues with AFKers / quitters in other matchmade game modes ( strikes and crucible ) and that problem would only be bigger with the raid ( "didn't know it was this long", "I don't like it" halfway through, "This group sucks, I'll back out and matchmake to another one", etc. ). Matchmaking would also introduce issues with the current checkpoint system; matching people together with different chekpoints / dumping new-to-raid players in the middle of an ongoing raid.
Basically, matchmaking for raids ( or at least King's Fall ) would be a terrible experience for 99% of the players that would use it and also brings along some issues of its own with the checkpoints n stuff.
It's a bad idea.
Other modes could use matchmaking ( old raids maybe, Prison of Elders definitely ), but King's Fall is absolutely fine without matchmaking.
Basically, matchmaking for raids ( or at least King's Fall ) would be a terrible experience for 99% of the players that would use it and also brings along some issues of its own with the checkpoints n stuff.
It's a bad idea.
Other modes could use matchmaking ( old raids maybe, Prison of Elders definitely ), but King's Fall is absolutely fine without matchmaking.
Right but that's a choice. It's not because Bungie couldn't or it was some impossible feat but chose not to.
No matchmaking for raids was one of the main reasons why I quit the game. Biggest fuck you from Bungie because they are so damn arrogant about this. I mean if you want to find a group for raids just using Ingame tools it's almost impossible to do so. Text Chat or Voice Chat at the tower to search peoples? Nope sorry use WhatsApp or Twitter or any other platform that has NOTHING to do with Destiny/Bungie to find a group. Just lol
No, it was because the engine didn't support it.
That support was added in Reach, which was also a heavy engine re-write, which also had the ability to let people drop out with ending the game, and allowed Firefight to support it's settings being changed.
Conversely, any activity in Destiny can be matchmade. The Raids are specifically not made matchmade by choice.
Ah right fair enough. It's always striked me as odd that while you can go into those modes online with a party and they operated fine yet no way to populate or matchmake your party other than from people on your friends list.
As someone who would rather be lit on fire like a protesting monk before touching matchmaking for a Raid, I still don't get why other oppose it.
Sure it's bound to be shit. Sure it'll be absolute ass. But whatever, won't affect me in the slightest since I won't use it.
And as for the "well it'll be crap and it'll sour users who do poorly and they'll never try it again" rationale....how is that any worse than never playing it at all?
I think a lot of you guys take what we do here for granted. It is *not* a common thing to spend time daily posting public messages about video games on the Internet. This is the geekiest thing imaginable and we are in absolutely no way or form close to an average gamer in that regard.
A game shouldn't expect users to sign up to a message board and look for groups in 2015, that's silly. I'll happily keep doing it because I have a wonderful time over here and have like 200 GAF friends who play Destiny, but it's silly to suppose this is an ideal situation for the game.
None of my real time friends use Reddit or forums for anything. The Raid is just a thing in the game they assume is the equivalent of a Halo LAN party back in the day: something you do when you have a solid group of real life buddies to run shit with.
Raid matchmaking would probably be total cancer but I still think that's preferable from just not giving most players *any way at all* to experience the best content in the game.
Sure it's bound to be shit. Sure it'll be absolute ass. But whatever, won't affect me in the slightest since I won't use it.
And as for the "well it'll be crap and it'll sour users who do poorly and they'll never try it again" rationale....how is that any worse than never playing it at all?
I think a lot of you guys take what we do here for granted. It is *not* a common thing to spend time daily posting public messages about video games on the Internet. This is the geekiest thing imaginable and we are in absolutely no way or form close to an average gamer in that regard.
A game shouldn't expect users to sign up to a message board and look for groups in 2015, that's silly. I'll happily keep doing it because I have a wonderful time over here and have like 200 GAF friends who play Destiny, but it's silly to suppose this is an ideal situation for the game.
None of my real time friends use Reddit or forums for anything. The Raid is just a thing in the game they assume is the equivalent of a Halo LAN party back in the day: something you do when you have a solid group of real life buddies to run shit with.
Raid matchmaking would probably be total cancer but I still think that's preferable from just not giving most players *any way at all* to experience the best content in the game.
Diprosalic
Banned
how long would Kingsfall take with no mic? and nobody will use one in matchmaking you can be sure of that.
15 hours?
20 hours?
i kinda want to see it.
it might affect how they design raids in the future.
as said a thousand times before, there needs to be tools to find people INGAME but not matchmaking.
have a LFG kind of thing in game where you can search for people using criterias, have a lobby where you can kick people that don't have a mic and then go and start the raid.
getting assigned random people is not the solution.
15 hours?
20 hours?
i kinda want to see it.
it might affect how they design raids in the future.
as said a thousand times before, there needs to be tools to find people INGAME but not matchmaking.
have a LFG kind of thing in game where you can search for people using criterias, have a lobby where you can kick people that don't have a mic and then go and start the raid.
getting assigned random people is not the solution.
They actually wanted matchmaking for campaign and firefight before - it just couldn't be done with that iteration of the engine.
Technically, the Vault of Glass matchmakes people into your instance for the first opening segment. King's Fall doesn't do it since they made a specific puzzle that randoms could grief. You can't grief anyone trying to open the Vault, only help them.
Twilight Gap
Member
This is the third time since E3 that Luke has teased that they might be adding LFG tools to the game.
Unless the first two teases were about the challenge mode for KF.
Unless the first two teases were about the challenge mode for KF.
anothertech
Member
Strawman after strawman argument keeps being made here. 'It won't work because this possible outcome will make players dislike the experience'
Seriously guys?
Matchmaking for raids: check light lvl, check mic active, make it a requirement. Bam. Com issues over. That was tough.
They said heroic strikes would be ruined with matchmaking, and yet I group with randoms every night with no issues, no mic most of the time. Sure that's anecdotal, but no more than those saying it's terrible.
Seriously guys?
Matchmaking for raids: check light lvl, check mic active, make it a requirement. Bam. Com issues over. That was tough.
They said heroic strikes would be ruined with matchmaking, and yet I group with randoms every night with no issues, no mic most of the time. Sure that's anecdotal, but no more than those saying it's terrible.
GlamFM
Banned
There are always two camps:
People who have never played a raid (also includes people who pretend they have....) and think MM would be a great idea.
People who play raids every Tuesday and know MM would be a horrible idea and simply not work.
The one thing I do agree on though is that bungie.net should have LFG tools.
People who have never played a raid (also includes people who pretend they have....) and think MM would be a great idea.
People who play raids every Tuesday and know MM would be a horrible idea and simply not work.
The one thing I do agree on though is that bungie.net should have LFG tools.
Makoto-Yuki
Banned
This is pretty much the reason I stopped playing Destiny. I enjoyed it up until lvl 29 where the only thing I could do were nightfalls/raids but it was such a hassle trying to get people to do it. I know people are gonna link me to the thread where I leave my psn and that. Well, I've tried it already (both on neogaf/reddit/some other website i can't remember the name of) and had no luck.
If they added matchmaking then I'd be right back in.
If they added matchmaking then I'd be right back in.