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[xabre]

It is not necessary to live everywhere to know that UHC doesn't work. Just ask people. Ask canadians about UHC. Ask english people about UHC. There's no secret about that. Where UHC has been implemented it has been a failure. Can you prove the opposite ?

I just can't believe you have the gall to post this kind of shit. It's like you think you know better than I do and I've lived in a country with universal health care all my life.

A failure? Sod off, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

 

[SRG01]

So uhh, what's the point of communism there?

It's not a communist country. They call themselves "Market Socialists" with one party rule under the Communist party.

But, at the current moment, they are actually hyper-capitalists, since they have almost zero regulation on industries. Even worse is that they ban workers' unions that are not official Communist unions.

 

[ronito]

It is not necessary to live everywhere to know that UHC doesn't work. Just ask people. Ask canadians about UHC. Ask english people about UHC. There's no secret about that. Where UHC has been implemented it has been a failure. Can you prove the opposite ?

Yes. Yes I can. Reading and searching. They are your friends.

http://www.pnhp.org/

Oh and since you like to talk about english people and Sicko so much. Read these UK doctor's reaction to the movie. It's pretty damn fair.

http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,,2175764,00.html

Here I'll post some choice posts.

'No one who works in the NHS would pretend it's perfect'
Ben Maguire, 28, capital programme manager

'Thank God for the NHS. Thank God the NHS didn't go the American way'
Ehsan Khondaker, 33, GP

Before I saw the film, I had kind of thought, "Oh well, America's got this private system, and there's health insurance, and you pay and get treated." But when I saw what it was actually like, I was completely horrified. I was telling my partner about the film when I came home, and she said, "God, you're livid, aren't you?" I kept thinking of that song by Amy Winehouse that begins, "What kind of fuckery is this?"...The NHS has got its problems but, my God, it's one of the best things in the world.

· Brian Belle-Fortune works at Great Ormond Street for Children NHS Trust.

Yes. A huge pile of lies. Even Robert Winston (iirc his name) who is the advocate of NHS said that the representation of NHS in the movie was dishonest. Moore just went in the best hospital of NHS and pictured it in his movie as if all hospitals across UK were the same thing.
And I've never worked for any healthcare company. But it doesn't make me a ignorant about that subject. The information is out there.

You know I've NEVER seen Sicko. Not even so much as a trailer. And true it doesn't make you ignorant. But it does make me less so.

And do you think that it would be different with UHC ? In theory the UHC is fantastic, you even suppose that this problem would be gone with UHC. But there isn't one country where UHC exists that it works as it should be. That's the problem.

Did I ever said it would be perfect? I'm not Ron Paul I know we'll never get the perfect system. But we can get a better system.

Other countries pay for it using money from taxes. And when you raise taxes you lose even more competitivity.

Let me put it this way. I pay a slew of money for healthcare. You pay a slew of money for healthcare. Hell 16% of the GDP is being paid for healthare. Take that already spent money and make a few cuts in other programs and badabing. Problem solved.

So what's the point of supporting the UHC when all that points that you have shown are sometimes even worst in countries that implemented UHC ?
I'm against UHC not because I am a bad guy who laughs at people filing bankruptcy because they can't afford some treatments. It's just pragmatism. I can show many countries where UHC doesn't work, but can you show me one where it works as it should work ?

I can show you countless kids that got healthcare the wouldn't have otherwise. I can tell you of fathers that have died because they decided they couldn't afford to go to the doctor and died. I can point you at people that have had life saving surgeries that they wouldn't have gotten in the states. I can point you at people that rely on ERs as their sole source of healthcare because they can't afford to go to a doctor. Did I say it'd be perfect? No. But I can tell you that the US health system is broken one.

 

[Jonm1010]

It is not necessary to live everywhere to know that UHC doesn't work. Just ask people. Ask canadians about UHC. Ask english people about UHC. There's no secret about that. Where UHC has been implemented it has been a failure. Can you prove the opposite ?




Yes. A huge pile of lies. Even Robert Winston (iirc his name) who is the advocate of NHS said that the representation of NHS in the movie was dishonest. Moore just went in the best hospital of NHS and pictured it in his movie as if all hospitals across UK were the same thing.
And I've never worked for any healthcare company. But it doesn't make me a ignorant about that subject. The information is out there.



And do you think that it would be different with UHC ? In theory the UHC is fantastic, you even suppose that this problem would be gone with UHC. But there isn't one country where UHC exists that it works as it should be. That's the problem.



Other countries pay for it using money from taxes. And when you raise taxes you lose even more competitivity.





So what's the point of supporting the UHC when all that points that you have shown are sometimes even worst in countries that implemented UHC ?
I'm against UHC not because I am a bad guy who laughs at people filing bankruptcy because they can't afford some treatments. It's just pragmatism. I can show many countries where UHC doesn't work, but can you show me one where it works as it should work ?

In all your ramblings here i've drawn one general conclusion, "Im fio I have my opinions and im not giving anyone anything to back them up so far, but they're mine and there as good as dogma. Yes I know i've provided absolutelly ZERO facts to back up my claim, not even first hand antedotal evidence but I'm making unfounded claims and everyone else needs to waste their time to prove them wrong - so until then, i'm the victor!" The End.

 

[Flo_Evans]

I used to be strongly against UHC but I don't even care anymore. I don't see how we can do it without putting a shitload of companies out of bussiness. Yeah fuck blue cross, but what about all the people that work there?

 

[siamesedreamer]

It is becoming a cost issue, though. It is eating up more and more of the middle class's income. Just cutting out the huge profits that the insurance companies make would go a long way to making things more manageable.

Roughly 50% of the total healthcare expenditures are incurred in the last two years of a person's life. So, if you're talking from a pure cost cutting standpoint, the best thing to do is to deny care to those who are statistically in the last two years of their life. Just ask Europe...

 

[ronito]

ronito,

If/when we get UHC, and if/when it fails (like SS) will you be as vocal about disbaning it? I'd love to see us give UHC a go, but I'm afraid that if it does fail we'll be stuck with waiting lists. I'm by no means rich, and don't want to start paying for my healthcare via taxes and "suplemental" insurance just to get the same level of care that I have now.

See above. Creative thinking can go a long way. Look as a brain surgeon once said. Any decision should be weighed by two factors:

1. What's the cost of doing something?
Well we can look at most of the rest of the civilized world for help and see what the issue is. Hell, we're PROVIDING IT FOR OUR ENEMIES. We can face new problems and try to make something better.

2. What's the cost of not doing anything?
Well at the rate of inflation for healthcare (6.9%) only the rich will be able to have healthcare. Already our life expectancy and quality of care are among the lowest of the civilized world. Yeah seems like a winning ship!

Now far be it from someone saying I'm just for having the government pay. As I've said many times the whole system needs to change. Lawyers and malpractice suits are killing us. Insane capital costs are keeping out true competitors. For profit insurance drives stuff up. The FDA drug testing regiments. The whole thing. This is why I'm against both Hillary's and Obama's plans. They just paint over the problem.

 

[ronito]

Roughly 50% of the total healthcare expenditures are incurred in the last two years of a person's life. So, if you're talking from a pure cost cutting standpoint, the best thing to do is to deny care to those who are statistically in the last two years of their life. Just ask Europe...

Hey they'd be off of Social Security sooner. I thought you of all people would be happy about that.

 

[coldvein]

I'll pay more taxes. For the fatties, for the smokers, for the... homosexuals.

 

[avaya]

It is not necessary to live everywhere to know that UHC doesn't work. Just ask people. Ask canadians about UHC. Ask english people about UHC. There's no secret about that. Where UHC has been implemented it has been a failure. Can you prove the opposite ?

:lol :lol :lol

 

[James Power]

You know what's the worst thing that'll happen once the US gets a universal health care program? All the fucking naysayers won't admit you were right in the first place. Nah-uh. Arguing for UHC in the US is like arguing on the Internet. In the end you're still retarded.

 

[Kikujiro]

:lol :lol :lol

My same reaction.

I live in Italy, I've been diagnosed with TBC, spent one month in hospital, made lots and lots of medical examination=0€
Oh yeah, because of my illnes, they gave me an economical aid so I can buy prescribed medicines for nothing.
There are a lot of problem here in Italy, but when I think about United State's NHC, I just can't believe how it can be true.

 

[siamesedreamer]

You know what's the worst thing that'll happen once the US gets a universal health care program? All the fucking naysayers won't admit you were right in the first place. Nah-uh. Arguing for UHC in the US is like arguing on the Internet. In the end you're still retarded.

Nobody is proposing a UHC system.

 

[Eric P]

god i love this thread

 

[quest]

hopefully they come up with a good universal healthcare system that doesn't involve me paying more taxes

Keep dreaming those with halfway decent jobs will be completely hosed. Higher taxes for worse coverage. Instead of my employer paying most of my coverage it will all shift to me via monster tax hike.

 

[Leezard]

:lol :lol :lol

Exactly. It works good here in Sweden. (though that will probably change with our new government.)

 

[Wraith]

Not really. Wait times are bad for emergency rooms and horrendous for most surgeries.

I love when people bring this shit up. Wait times in emergency rooms are ALREADY bad here. My sister recently got to the emergency room at 2pm. She was not treated until 10:30pm. Of course, YMMV.

 

[sorryaboutdresden]

I'll pay more taxes. For the fatties, for the smokers, for the... homosexuals.

I read some where the other day that fatties don't cost nearly as much as smokers for health insurance, but then again, fatties don't pay out their asses on taxes like we do.

 

[siamesedreamer]

Instead of my employer paying most of my coverage it will all shift to me via monster tax hike.

You already pay for it through lower wages.

 

[Ikael]

Yeah, I'll take a UHC system that runs off taxes. Where else are we going to get the money?

Tax alcohol and tobacco to death. Or even better, legalize gambling and prostitution and tax them to death too, and let the vices of a few pay the rights of the many. I happen to be one crazy man that thinks that the state´s fuction is basically a technical one (manage the economy, provide basic services to the population), "moral issues" like gay marriage or prayer at the schools be dammed and nothing else but a distraction from the real, hard to solve problems (like the state of the healthcare).

It is not necessary to live everywhere to know that UHC doesn't work. Just ask people. Ask canadians about UHC. Ask english people about UHC. There's no secret about that. Where UHC has been implemented it has been a failure. Can you prove the opposite?

I am Spanish and If it were not for UHC, one of my friends would have died of the Cromm syndrome long ago (its treatment needs ultra expensive drugs), my cousin would not be able to walk (birth defect corrected by state subventioned prothesys) and my two grandparents would be dead already (several heart attacks and age illnesses, as well as a myriad of medical tests). Yes, our system it has flaws like any system. We have underpaid nurses and long waiting lists for the treatment of non urgent illnesses, but I would be dammed if I would trade my flawed healthcare system for the non existant "you pay your ass or we let you die like a dog" American one. Oh, yes, I pay more taxes for sure, but just my friend´s treatment cost like 15 years of my total taxpaying. It is called "economy of scale".

 

[PrivateWHudson]

Keep dreaming those with halfway decent jobs will be completely hosed. Higher taxes for worse coverage. Instead of my employer paying most of my coverage it will all shift to me via monster tax hike.

Good point...I didn't even think about the portion that my employer is paying. What are the chances that they'll give me that money in my pay-check to help off-set the tax hikes that will be needed? Fat chance probably.

 

[siamesedreamer]

Tax alcohol and tobacco to death. Or even better, legalize gambling and prostitution and tax them to death too, and let the vices of a few pay the rights of the many.

The more you tax things the less people do them. So, your revenue base slowly erodes over time and you're left with trying to conjure up new ways of financing the system.

 

[quest]

You already pay for it through lower wages.

Lol you think my employer will give me the money when they don't have to pay for the coverage? I really don't want to pay for my neighbor and his 10 kids no thanks.

You wanna know why the ERs are full it is people who are to damn lazy to make a Dr. appointment and go to the ER instead. I see so many people visiting the ER for the sniffles it makes me sick.

 

[Eric P]

You wanna know why the ERs are full it is people who are to damn lazy to make a Dr. appointment and go to the ER instead. I see so many people visiting the ER for the sniffles it makes me sick.

just out of curiosity, do you work at a hospital or do you have to drive by emergency rooms to verify your hatred?

and while you're there, do you get treatment for your feelings of being ill or do you just come and post about it on gaf?

 

[PrivateWHudson]

Do these plans call for tax payer coverage for illegals also? I mean just because the first thing they did was break our laws getting here, they shouldn't have to decide between food on the table and getting well.

 

[quest]

just out of curiosity, do you work at a hospital or do you have to drive by emergency rooms to verify your hatred?

and while you're there, do you get treatment for your feelings of being ill or do you just come and post about it on gaf?

If I am ill I will gasp make a Dr. Appointment. Go to any ER and see how many people are really there for a real emergency. And no a sniffle or sneeze is not an emergency.

I just don't like seeing the resources of the ER being used for trivial stuff. That and it costs a shit load of money which makes insurance rates go up.

 

[Ikael]

The more you tax things the less people do them. So, your revenue base slowly erodes over time and you're left with trying to conjure up new ways of financing the system.

I really, really do not think that gambling and prostitution will never, ever cease to exist, period. If fundamentalist countries executes prostitutes and gamblers and still have not ended with it, I really do not think that high taxes are going to put an end to it. Not to mention that the regulation of said illegal activities would probably incentivate the creation of more business, as it happened with the legalization of soft drugs in Holland, as an effect of the juridic security that the legalization brings.

 

[Fio]

YHere I'll post some choice posts.

It's normal to react like that when you watch so many lies. And you shouldn't endorse a movie that you haven't seen. By the way here's a good quote:

"It is the opinion of Professor Lord Robert Winston, the consultant and advocate of the NHS. When asked on BBC Radio 4 whether he recognised the NHS as portrayed in this film, Winston replied: “No, I didn’t. Most of it was filmed at my hospital [the Hammersmith in west London], which is a very good hospital but doesn’t represent what the NHS is like.”"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/minette_marrin/article2753620.ece

Did I ever said it would be perfect? I'm not Ron Paul I know we'll never get the perfect system. But we can get a better system.

Let me put it this way. I pay a slew of money for healthcare. You pay a slew of money for healthcare. Hell 16% of the GDP is being paid for healthare. Take that already spent money and make a few cuts in other programs and badabing. Problem solved.

No. It's not that simple. The bad management of US NHC doesn't mean that a UHC is good. UHC has these same problems of waste of money and bad management.

I can show you countless kids that got healthcare the wouldn't have otherwise. I can tell you of fathers that have died because they decided they couldn't afford to go to the doctor and died. I can point you at people that have had life saving surgeries that they wouldn't have gotten in the states. I can point you at people that rely on ERs as their sole source of healthcare because they can't afford to go to a doctor. Did I say it'd be perfect? No. But I can tell you that the US health system is broken one.

For each kid who got healthcare, many others have to wait in long waiting lists. The same can be said about people who needs surgery. And well, these same people actually pay for it.
The current US healthcare system surely needs some changes, a lot of changes. But moving to UHC, a proven broken system, wouldn't be a solution, not even close. Long waiting lists, bad hospitals, low wages for doctors and nurses, are all known problems of countries where UHC has been implemented.

Exactly. It works good here in Sweden. (though that will probably change with our new government.)

You swedish pay what, almost 50% in taxes ?

 

[Eric P]

If I am ill I will gasp make a Dr. Appointment. Go to any ER and see how many people are really there for a real emergency. And no a sniffle or sneeze is not an emergency.

so in other words you don't work at a hospital and you don't drive by emergency rooms

so you have no quantitative (nor even anecdotal at this point) evidence to back up you seeing "so many people visiting the ER for the sniffles it makes me sick."

 

[quest]

Do these plans call for tax payer coverage for illegals also? I mean just because the first thing they did was break our laws getting here, they shouldn't have to decide between food on the table and getting well.

You will fit in very well here I look forward to more posts.

 

[Kabouter]

I really hope that all that passion you show in favor of UHC haven't appeared because you watched Sicko.

Can I like UHC because I live in a country that has UHC?
(Not that it's perfect like some people believe, it definitely has it's flaws. It's just a lot better than the alternative.)

It's not like it's moving to a problem free system. Just a less problem system.

No, but at 9,5%, at least France's system is the best in the world. You guys pay 16% (of a larger sum per capita too) to get worse results.

I used to be strongly against UHC but I don't even care anymore. I don't see how we can do it without putting a shitload of companies out of bussiness. Yeah fuck blue cross, but what about all the people that work there?

A mixed public/private system is the answer here. Works fine here, and all insurance companies are doing pretty damn great.

The more you tax things the less people do them. So, your revenue base slowly erodes over time and you're left with trying to conjure up new ways of financing the system.

Smoking, drinking, gambling, visiting prostitutes and drugs are all still popular here. Especially for addictive things like smoking, price doesn't seem to be THAT much of an issue. Though gambling isn' t taxed here I should add, the state just has a monopoly on it and operates the only casinos in the country.

 

[quest]

so in other words you don't work at a hospital and you don't drive by emergency rooms

so you have no quantitative (nor even anecdotal at this point) evidence to back up you seeing "so many people visiting the ER for the sniffles it makes me sick."

Lets just say I spend 32-40 hours a week at a hospital.

 

[Eric P]

Lets just say I spend 32-40 hours a week at a hospital.

thank you

 

[siamesedreamer]

You wanna know why the ERs are full it is people who are to damn lazy to make a Dr. appointment and go to the ER instead. I see so many people visiting the ER for the sniffles it makes me sick.

People go to the ER because they cannot be turned away due to lack of money. ER treatment is extremely expensive relative to other type of medical care. Since they can't pay, those costs are then passed off to you and me and everyone else who has insurance.

The point of these proposed insurance programs is to prevent this type of thing...enabling them to go see a doctor when they get the sniffles...in effect making them pay for their own care (to a certain extent). It also helps people get better preventative care rather than waiting until they are really, really sick before they get help - which is extremely expensive.

Its going to cost money, but its better than what we have now. What we have now is completely and utterly broken. And it isn't socialized medicine.

 

[siamesedreamer]

Though gambling isn' t taxed here I should add, the state just has a monopoly on it and operates the only casinos in the country.

Gambling is taxed in the US as part of capital gains (I think). I wasn't really referring to gambling though.

 

[quest]

People go to the ER because they cannot be turned away due to lack of money. ER treatment is extremely expensive relative to other type of medical care. Since they can't pay, those costs are then passed off to you and me and everyone else who has insurance.

The point of these proposed insurance programs is to prevent this type of thing...enabling them to go see a doctor when they get the sniffles...in effect making them pay for their own care (to a certain extent). It also helps people get better preventative care rather than waiting until they are really, really sick before they get help - which is extremely expensive.

Its going to cost money, but its better than what we have now. What we have now is completely and utterly broken. And it isn't socialized medicine.

No UHC will only clog up ERs even more. Since it will be free to visit people will just replace the family dr with the ER for lots of stuff. The local indian tribe has UHC for members though the casino. You wanna know were lots of memebers get there health care at?

It just sucks seeing people who really need help have to wait hours because someone could not call the clinic for an appointment is all.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

It is pretty common right wing propaganda that Canadians and British can't find a single doctor. I've even heard stories of desperate Canadians crossing the border because they can't get health care otherwise!

UHC is not a perfect system but neither is the private care like it is now. Health care costs in the US are spiraling out of control and nobody wants to touch it. The only good thing to happen to health care in the US was when Walmart and other retail chains began offering generic meds at $3-5 a bottle. Of course, you need to go visit a doctor and get the prescription form first and doctor visits are not cheap.

Since we want to have anecdotal wars, my sister needed to visit the doctor but with her new job, no insurance. No longer was she under my parents' coverage either. For her visit, it was about $480. Would have been even higher if they did the blood tests and analyses they were about to do. Since she barely made ends meet now, she would not have been able to afford rent. Fortunately, my parents paid her bill. Not everyone has parents who have that kind of spare cash to pay off doctor bills. She was fortunate in this scenario. She pretty much said that she would rather risk illness than not have a roof over her head until she gets promoted to benefits, which may or may not cover her costs entirely. For her sake, I hope she remains healthy but well, if she does get ill, she is fucked.

Most critics of UHC are mostly middle class or higher that never really had to live a threadbare existence like 20-30% of the American population. Where a doctor visit can ruin you and God help you if you ever need surgery. With companies today cutting benefits to have higher profits in their earning statements, there is going to be a serious medical crisis in the future, moreso than what is already happening now. Hospitals will just go bankrupt from ER costs.

Action needs to be taken and it needs to be taken sooner rather than later.

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

so in other words you don't work at a hospital and you don't drive by emergency rooms

so you have no quantitative (nor even anecdotal at this point) evidence to back up you seeing "so many people visiting the ER for the sniffles it makes me sick."

What a horrible cycle. Seeing sick people at the ER makes him sick. It's a good thing that he thinks about taxpayers first and despite being at the ER he makes a doctor appointment for a later date.

This is a great thread. Lots of speculative bullshit mixed in with some real-world successes and failures of a UHC. Nobody is saying its perfect, but if our government only strived to do things perfectly and gave up when it couldn't be accomplished, our government wouldn't do anything.

I guess that's the way some people want it...but why do people insist on cherry picking when it's good or bad to support government programs? It seems more like an exercise in accepting the status quo than them really believing the shit they spew.

 

[bill0527]

If we had UHC, the OP's wait time would probably have been even longer in the ER.

 

[bill0527]

Btw, I'm fully qualified to comment on this seeing as how my wife is a family practice physician who moonlights 4 shifts in a month in 2 different ERs.

30-40% of the people who show up in ERs right now don't have a serious problem that needs immediate medical attention. Most are drug seekers or people who have problems that can be fixed with a trip to the drug store instead of clogging up the ER.

 

[Fio]

I am Spanish and If it were not for UHC, one of my friends would have died of the Cromm syndrome long ago (its treatment needs ultra expensive drugs), my cousin would not be able to walk (birth defect corrected by state subventioned prothesys) and my two grandparents would be dead already (several heart attacks and age illnesses, as well as a myriad of medical tests). Yes, our system it has flaws like any system. We have underpaid nurses and long waiting lists for the treatment of non urgent illnesses, but I would be dammed if I would trade my flawed healthcare system for the non existant "you pay your ass or we let you die like a dog" American one. Oh, yes, I pay more taxes for sure, but just my friend´s treatment cost like 15 years of my total taxpaying. It is called "economy of scale".

I'm not saying that UHC never works. I'm saying that it is inefficient and wouldn't be a solution for USA. While you friends and relatives got the treatment they needed, how many others have died or worsened their diseases waiting ? And they actually paid for it but they didn't get the treatment. Do you consider it a good system ?

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

Btw, I'm fully qualified to comment on this seeing as how my wife is a family practice physician who moonlights 4 shifts in a month in 2 different ERs.

30-40% of the people who show up in ERs right now don't have a serious problem that needs immediate medical attention. Most are drug seekers or people who have problems that can be fixed with a trip to the drug store instead of clogging up the ER.

You're not qualified to say what kind of coverage anyone should get. You're not a doctor and you're not the patients suffering whatever ailments they're suffering. Sick people should see doctors. If the ER is what they feel to be the best avenue they have, they shouldn't have to deny themselves the visit to appease you or anyone else. Too many people feel they have the right to tell others what type of care they should be given.

A sniffle could just be a sniffle...or it could be the start of a flu. A sore throat could be a sore throat, or it could be severe bronchitis. When you're not feeling healthy I think it's better to see a doctor than to walk through an OTC medicine line and see what works.

*note, I very rarely go to the doctor despite having good insurance. But I don't think others should have to do the same.

People will cheat the system. People will cheat any system. People cheat insurance companies. If we acted based on what would or wouldn't be exploited, we wouldn't have anything nice.

 

[Mad Max]

While you friends and relatives got the treatment they needed, how many others have died or worsened their diseases waiting ? And they actually paid for it but they didn't get the treatment. Do you consider it a good system ?

:lol

 

[avatar299]

Where is this wait time shit coming from. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE WAIT TIMES. IT'S A FUCKING HOSPITAL! UHC and wait times are not connected.

There is no reason, no reason, for at least a basic healthcare system in America. UHC would help the middle class worker, small buisnesses and give them more freedom to use their money how they want. Taxes are non-existent in this argument, beucase you are still paying taxes either through lower wages or higher costs.

I'm a more right-wing guy, and I'm all for a smaller government and compeitive free market, but the standard is rising, ladies and gentlemen and eventually we will have a UHC system of some sort. Fighting it is just hurting yourself.

 

[quest]

It is pretty common right wing propaganda that Canadians and British can't find a single doctor. I've even heard stories of desperate Canadians crossing the border because they can't get health care otherwise!

UHC is not a perfect system but neither is the private care like it is now. Health care costs in the US are spiraling out of control and nobody wants to touch it. The only good thing to happen to health care in the US was when Walmart and other retail chains began offering generic meds at $3-5 a bottle. Of course, you need to go visit a doctor and get the prescription form first and doctor visits are not cheap.

Since we want to have anecdotal wars, my sister needed to visit the doctor but with her new job, no insurance. No longer was she under my parents' coverage either. For her visit, it was about $480. Would have been even higher if they did the blood tests and analyses they were about to do. Since she barely made ends meet now, she would not have been able to afford rent. Fortunately, my parents paid her bill. Not everyone has parents who have that kind of spare cash to pay off doctor bills. She was fortunate in this scenario. She pretty much said that she would rather risk illness than not have a roof over her head until she gets promoted to benefits, which may or may not cover her costs entirely. For her sake, I hope she remains healthy but well, if she does get ill, she is fucked.

Most critics of UHC are mostly middle class or higher that never really had to live a threadbare existence like 20-30% of the American population. Where a doctor visit can ruin you and God help you if you ever need surgery. With companies today cutting benefits to have higher profits in their earning statements, there is going to be a serious medical crisis in the future, moreso than what is already happening now. Hospitals will just go bankrupt from ER costs.

Action needs to be taken and it needs to be taken sooner rather than later.

The current system needs work. There needs to be better management on all levels. There needs to be changes and tweaks I agree. But the answer is not to tax the shit out of people to pay for it. The problem is those who use it the most would not pay the most. Those who would use it the least would pay the most. I have yet to see a system were I would not end up paying 1000s extra a year for the neighbor and his van full of kids. I would be paying those 1000s of dollars for lesser care.

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

I'm not saying that UHC never works. I'm saying that it is inefficient and wouldn't be a solution for USA. While you friends and relatives got the treatment they needed, how many others have died or worsened their diseases waiting ? And they actually paid for it but they didn't get the treatment. Do you consider it a good system ?

jesus christ.

You're saying time kills more people than a lack of coverage? It's not like waits aren't common under our system. Maybe they're better than Canada, but I think most could agree with the tradeoff. Perhaps...knowing it's a problem in other systems, we can address it before implementing it?

 

[ronito]

While you friends and relatives got the treatment they needed because they had money, how many others have died or worsened their diseases by not going to doctors they couldn't afford? Some of them even with insurance that couldn't afford the out of pocket expenses. Do you consider it a good system ?

Ohh I can play this game too.

 

[maynerd]

50% of all bankruptcies in America are due to health care.

16% of our GDP

We pay more per patient then any other country in the world.

Insurance companies make profit by overcharging for health care or by denying benfits for people who need it.

These are a FEW of the many REAL problems with our system right now.

All you people that are against the alternative are just SPECULATING what MIGHT happen.

Other countries have UHC and it works a LOT better than our system.

All of your arguments against it are WEAK. IMHO.

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

50% of all bankruptcies in America are due to health care.

16% of our GDP

We pay more per patient then any other country in the world.

Insurance companies make profit by overcharging for health care or by denying benfits for people who need it.

These are a FEW of the many REAL problems with our system right now.

All you people that are against the alternative are just SPECULATING what MIGHT happen.

Other countries have UHC and it works a LOT better than our system.

All of your arguments against it are WEAK. IMHO.

The only arguments that hold any merit are that it would be difficult and expensive to implement.

Beyond that, it's nigh unconscionable to be opposed to it.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

How about we go back to the good old days when EVERYONE paid for their own health expenses? If everyone was looking at their bill, and had to pay in cash, I'll bet costs would come down and less people would use the ER as a primary dr.

Keep a little bit insurance for catastrophic medical issues, and have a gov. program for those who truly can't afford dr. visits.