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Why were Final Fantasy 13's graphics downgraded?
- Thread starter Inuhanyou
- Start date
Well I certainly hope XV is linear. More open zones like Xenoblade or FFXII sure, but I hope the game is still a very linear story.
Can't stand the plague of "here's a bunch of copy and paste missions thrown together, go and do something whatever" thats taken over wrpgs like Dragon Age and Skyrim.
Can't stand the plague of "here's a bunch of copy and paste missions thrown together, go and do something whatever" thats taken over wrpgs like Dragon Age and Skyrim.
Citizen_Insane
Member
Holy shit, that looks incredible.
I'll differ to you guys on this one, as I could easily be mistaken. I haven't been following all that closely as it hasn't been announced for PC yet.
Being extremely realistic, Lightning's biceps here have like a magnitude more polygons than her actual game model, PC or not. The PC screenshots at higher resolution than the console release make it much more obvious that Lightning suffers from hexa-arms.
And no, replacing the ingame models with cutscene models doesn't work like that. The rigging is completely different and obviously simplified a lot for the game models, so they aren't 1:1 usable with a simple asset swap.
To answer OP's question, you build assets, build the game, then optimize it to actually run at a playable framerate. A lot of that optimization means cutting down on polygons/shaders/texture sizes. This has been true since the dawn of game development and unfortunately overlaps a little into the whole territory of bullshots/etc if misused/mis-presented.
XV will end up on the PC. Even though all of the FF ports so far have been shoddy at release, Square seems to be making an effort in getting the all FFs available on Steam.
My only wish though is when they eventually release VI on steam, they will base it off the SFC/GBA version and not the PS1 or Mobile version
Its actually much better than the actual game though. They added tons of bloom to the final product in this area, but the actual definition of the characters are superior in these models.
I understand that, and i'm glad you agree with me that the game was downgraded from these screens. I'm just using this as a discussion on some of the reasons they may have done so at the time. We all know a book on that period in SE's inner circle would get tons of attention.
People who keep saying this should understand. Your referring to 2005-2006 videos of 13, which obviously looked way WAAAY better than the final game(remember that kick ass 'in game' gameplay section that looked super dynamic and over the top with lightning doing super flips and kicks and shit). These pics specifically are from late 2008, less than a year before the game came out in Japan.
Yep, that's hardly a demo of what the PC version is capable of. With proper alpha representation and lots of downsampling, it looks better than the PS3 version, not far worse.
FFXIII's models are definitely fairly low-poly, but that's not a great general representation of how good they can look in the PC version.
The skin textures themselves from that comparison look completely different. The pre release screens having much higher quality textures and shading in comparison to the release version, which is notably lower quality.
Its something that resolution and AA can't change. Its something i hope one day some smart PC guy can hack out of the PC release, the original higher quality models i mean...and by the looks of it, lighting too, cause the entire scene is different
Its something that resolution and AA can't change. Its something i hope one day some smart PC guy can hack out of the PC release, the original higher quality models i mean...and by the looks of it, lighting too, cause the entire scene is different
R10Neymarfan
Member
Welp if a PS4 definitive edition comes out, we know what one of the additions Square could do are now
if that happens please patch it in the PC version as well
I'd be willing to entertain the thought, but I'd want to see the models in more obviously like-for-like lighting environments to be sure. There's some dominant components from similar directions there (albeit different strengths), but overall it seems different.
In most of the pre-release stuff, the materials look pretty similar to the final game, at least at a glance.
But these arent original pictures, as in first looks, they are from a year before the game launched..less than where we are at with FF15. They could not have just been CGI, as these models are placed directly in the areas in the game you visit. Surely they should be in the game's code somewhere waiting to be unlocked
FFXV is more than a year away though.
Point is, this happened very close to launch. SE was claiming this was realtime. Something changed and it was likely a downgrade.
Tthat's why i said these photos were taken less than the amount of time we are at now waiting for FF15. They had to be apart of the game in some fashion and not used for whatever reason, cause that's cutting it really close to have these models not be any real part of the game to begin with. Which is where my argument comes from that they are waiting in the game's code to be found
copelandmaster
Member
Your alphas are bugged. You should fix that. I think turning off SGSSA will do so. Use GeDoSaTo instead.
Dev hell + underpowered console hardware. Simple as that.
influentzar
Member
Just be grateful it's not Alien Colonial Marines level of disparity.
We all need crapload of 'HD remaster/Definitive Edition/etc' to be satisfied, don't we?
We all need crapload of 'HD remaster/Definitive Edition/etc' to be satisfied, don't we?
I think ultimately they ran out of time and much of the game had to be rushed to completion. Hence downgrade/compromise.
^ Well as you've uncovered Kagari, they had to make the game pretty quick before launch Halo 2 style...that required a lot of sacrifices i'm sure....but that still doesn't explain SE's discombobulation to such an extent
I keep coming back to 360 being the root cause....if they already had these models in the game, and were working with PS3 for over 3 years at that point already, how could they have even created those models if their base unit was a PS3 and it was too underpowered to make them as you say?
That's why i am not really seeing that one as plausible...by 2008, the time for devkits was obviously done...its not like ubi bullshots, where they make a game on PC and have to gimp it for consoles...SE didn't even get into PC development until after the new decade....so their base unit had to be a PS3 anyway
I keep coming back to 360 being the root cause....if they already had these models in the game, and were working with PS3 for over 3 years at that point already, how could they have even created those models if their base unit was a PS3 and it was too underpowered to make them as you say?
That's why i am not really seeing that one as plausible...by 2008, the time for devkits was obviously done...its not like ubi bullshots, where they make a game on PC and have to gimp it for consoles...SE didn't even get into PC development until after the new decade....so their base unit had to be a PS3 anyway
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Exactly, there was no downgrades. Like 90% of PS3's initial reveals, it was most likely a case of bullshottery. It happens today as well.
Not that PS3 version of FFXIII looks bad. Here are some direct-feed snaps I took off of my own PS3 recently:
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I'd rather confront past demons now than wait for XV's launch. If you consider our expectations from XIII that is. I wouldn't necessarily think XV will be a downgrade considering how the Versus XIII footage looked back in 2006. Even if the 360 version of XIII was compressed; there were still those who enjoyed it. XV isn't necessarily being compressed. They're making it larger and now they'll focus on multiplatform. XIII-2 was probably the best time for fans of XIII. XIII-2 development started in 2010 and lasted for a year and a half. Maybe SE learned to do a better job with the series on 360. SE spent more time on developing XIII on PS3 before deciding to port it. Again I'm back to my earlier statement about the subject, so don't mind me repeating myself again.
If you watch Advent Children now. The CGI is so spread apart. The blu-ray touches up a lot of textures, but they don't necessarily look the best. I can bet the 360's version of XIII looked better on a lower resolution television set.
mrmickfran
Member
snow looks so off
It looks like he has an 8-pack.
Again, it wasn't 2005 or 2006, it was late 2008, and almost close to launch of the game. These pre release assets have to be somewhere, i'd stake everything on that
1. You're assuming that a given chunk of promo footage was running on an actual PS3 rather than being a target render. Bad assumption.
2. The hardware differences between PS3 and 360 rarely manifest in PS3 have dramatically higher poly counts, and even if the 360 couldn't handle those models it's a fairly unlikely thing for them to downgrade both versions for.
3. Yes, Square Enix did "make the game on PC" in the sense that they had some sort of PC development environment where they could have produced footage that looks better than the console version. It doesn't require a complete consumer-grade PC port to do that.
1. But there's nothing else to suggest otherwise...in 2008, they were well into development of the project..it had to be far enough where they werent shy in showing the models off. My question is why were they not included? Its big assumption to go from the consumer console unit could not run it, to those assets were not real to begin with.
2. Any PS3 exclusive from SCE will prove that wrong.
3. I didn't mean they had to make a PC port for consumers, Nomura himself specifically said that FF15 was one of the first times they(SE) made a game in a PC environment, which is a far cry from basing everything around the cell processor, something completely different from making assets in PC that aren't real. Those assets have to be somewhere in the game
They were trying to put the best possible face on the game while still being somewhat representative of the final look. That's called a target render and it's standard practice. Those models do not need to be in the game somewhere because the footage in which they appeared was not the final version of the game.
And no, they didn't develop every single part of the game on PS3. Do you think their artists booted up PS3s every day and used purely PS3 based software for all the modeling and animation? If you admit that they could do that kind of work without PS3s, they could very easily make rendered footage on PC as well.
copelandmaster
Member
I'm just speculating as much as you are honestly.
Probably because when this screenshot was taken, the game was running in a PC based dev environment. When they tried to run it on the other two boxes, bad things happened. You got a higher poly count, better lighting, better textures, better DOF, better AF. Not to mention both the boxes running the game had an absurdly tiny memory config AND disc space was an issue due to the absurd amount of pre-rendered cutscenes. Compromises had to happen. 2008 dev pc's were at least 1.5x-2x as powerful as the ps3 and 360.
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Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
That's assuming they had anything running on the PS3 in 2008. Remember, the first time they had anything resembling a game was when they completed the demo. There was nothing running like a game or a section of the gameplay before the demo. That was supposed to have been Dec 2008.
Also, aren't most game development done on a PC anyway?
Let me explain how something works, OP: Models for characters generally get made on PC at very high poly counts that make them impractical to ever use in real time. They may still wind up in prerendered cutscenes, but they'll always, always get downgraded for the actual game because it's easier to go from high detail to lower detail than the other way around, especially when very high detail versions are needed for other purposes. The fact that very high quality models exist does not mean they have to be somewhere on disc in the fucking PS3 version of the game.
You are on some sort of weird delusional downgrade crusade here and every post you make reveals how little you understand.
You are on some sort of weird delusional downgrade crusade here and every post you make reveals how little you understand.
serversurfer
Member
I don't know a great deal about art production, but I'm not sure I follow. Wouldn't it take a lot of time and effort to replace completed assets with downgraded models and textures? Why would to begin such an undertaking if you were short on time, and what would it gain you in return?
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Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
They probably spent a lot of time making assets that were discarded. Post-mortem said they discard enough to make another game. There was that story about a woman who spent 1 year modelling specific piece(s) of rocks but not too sure if that's true. The higher detailed models in the screenshots were probably discarded or just left out of the disc.
Dictator93
Member
For similar reasons the MGSIV got neutered.
As well as dev hell and the fact they were previs renders (targets).
As well as dev hell and the fact they were previs renders (targets).
No. Downgrades are a completely necessary step because it's actually far easier to create a high quality asset and make some tweaks while reducing its poly count than it is to create all of your content within those lower limitations.
Same for textures, artists usually make a very high res uncompressed version that is then adjusted for compression and the final resolution that it needs to be for the game.
???
If you went about comparing dynamic object polycouns in similar genres between the two consoles, I suspect you probably wouldn't find all that big of an advantage either way. ND's LOD0 models edge out those in Gears? Halo Reach's LOD0 models tend to have like twice as many polygons as those in KZ3. Etc.
copelandmaster
Member
Getting that screenshot I posted earlier was a heavily fluctuating experience. Every time the models got close to the camera, everything dropped. I am running on a Titan Black, which should eat this game alive, even at 4k. The engine is a mess. The frame pacing problems the PC version suffers from were probably even worse during the game's development with unfinished code.
... Why? Also the OCD in me has to point out code != assets. This isn't some magic pie in the sky unfathomable entity like the Matrix. Not only has the PC version been out for months, prior to that both PS3 and X360 versions have been ripped to hell and back. What you see is what you get.
edit: I mean you just have to google "Final Fantasy 13 Source Film Maker" and stuff like this shows up, not to mention all the hilariously expected NSFW edits.
It went multi-plat and was downgraded because of Xbox 360. This information has been repeated a thousand times from Microsoft, this was one of the reasons why the game took so long to complete, and because of the shift to multi-plat the developers actually strayed from their original conception/build of the game. So the end result was a completely different game with inferior visuals.
I'm not saying the game became bad because of the shift because we don't know what the original game would had been like. But all we can say for sure is that the game has different inferior visuals at the end because the game was made halfway in development with the Xbox 360 in mind.
I'm not saying the game became bad because of the shift because we don't know what the original game would had been like. But all we can say for sure is that the game has different inferior visuals at the end because the game was made halfway in development with the Xbox 360 in mind.
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Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
That's not true.
http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vault/GD_Mag_Archives/GDM_October_2010.pdf
You can read the post-mortem here on how things went wrong. 360 or not, this game was doomed to not live up to expectations.
Well, I have to admit, the mental image of Microsoft saying something that would be read as "the game got worse on all platforms because our hardware sucks" is pretty entertaining.
timetokill
Banned
iwannaseethereceipts.gif
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Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah they wouldn't have said anything that dumb. Not back in 09/10 anyway. Neither would SE say such a thing. The whole "360 caused a downgrade" thing has always been angry PS3 fans finding something to blame.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Holy hell that's a pretty big difference in polygons.Your alphas are bugged. You should fix that. I think turning off SGSSA will do so. Use GeDoSaTo instead.
Dev hell + underpowered console hardware. Simple as that.