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Why would a Pokemon game with no IVs not work?

Let's be realistic though... if I know about IV obviously I at least have decent moves right? If I have 6 Pokémon that can sweep his whole team because of his low IV then what can he do? Or are we talking I know about IV but somehow I used a Charizard with ember, fire blast, flamethrower and fire spin? Because we are just talking extremes for the sake of it now. Also someone who is *100* times better than me but doesn't know about IV? There's no point arguing about something by pointing out the absolute extremes. I was being sarcastic :p
I mentioned all else being the same, so that would include move knowledge.

And yes, if he knew everything you knew, plus had superior prediction, he has a much greater chance at beating you than not. If someone didn't make an explicit effort to breed out someone good and just picked out someone from the box, on average that given Pokemon is going to have decent to good IVs anyhow, with a 1/6 chance of having a 31 somewhere. Randomly low IVs across the board are fairly unlikely.

And everyone's being extreme in this thread - IVs aren't taking your firstborn at night :p
 
I mentioned all else being the same, so that would include move knowledge.

And yes, if he knew everything you knew, plus had superior prediction, he has a much greater chance at beating you than not. If someone didn't make an explicit effort to breed out someone good and just picked out someone from the box, on average that given Pokemon is going to have decent to good IVs anyhow, with a 1/6 chance of having a 31 somewhere. Randomly low IVs across the board are fairly unlikely.

And everyone's being extreme in this thread - IVs aren't taking your firstborn at night :p

Maybe not but it means a lot when you've completed every game in your favourite series and now you just don't care :(
 
They should get rid of them. Tbh i'd rather be playing showdown than wasting my life away with the most boring shit in the world: breeding pokemon for IVs.
 
I don't understand many of the points defending IVs.

The average player doesn't even know about them, and their contributions to a Pokemon are close to if not entirely unnoticeable in casual play. Their inclusion or removal wouldn't affect the average player at all. For casual players that do know about IVs, there might be some slight fun in knowing every Pokemon is unique, but even that feels like a flimsy argument. The uniqueness that IVs contribute exist solely through almost unnoticeable invisible stats -- compare that to EVs which will cause each Pokemon on your team while playing single player to be noticeably unique compared to other Pokemon of the same species because of the nature of the battles they've gone through being different. Throw in Natures and it feels like casual players already have more than enough reason to feel like every Pokemon is a unique snowflake without randomized invisible stats.

IVs are incredibly important to competitive play, though, where stats are tuned to the single digit to ensure 2HKOs or 4 subs or surviving a specific hit or what have you. To this effect, the times where you wouldn't just want 31 are VERY rare. I can pretty much only think of Trick Room teams and having specific values for Hidden Power (which man oh man is just a pain). With XY making it extremely easy to get at least 4-5 perfect IVs without resorting to any sort of questionable strategies, they just exist as this trivial but necessary step to obtaining your desired team. There's no real reason from a competitive standpoint to just not just normalize IVs if perfect IVs are already the assumed standard.

The one argument that I will give in favor of retaining IVs is fun.
A lot of people don't find it fun, and that's perfectly fair, but when I played I actually had a lot of fun breeding, and IVs are a big part of that. Hatching was obviously obnoxious, but seeing the fruits of my labor pop out and find they have the right Nature, Moves, Gender, and IVs feels good, especially if I get lucky and they come out Shiny. Throw in an almost mercantile aspect to it when trading and it's honestly a lot of fun. Maybe a bit too close to just rolling a dice and feeling good when it's a 6, but it's fun nonetheless, and removing IVs would remove a large potion of that.

The solution to this, in my opinion, would be to retain IVs as they currently exist for single player, but just have competitive player battles normalize them. Make it so that perfect IVs have a cosmetic aspect to it during battle, like fancy particles or something occasionally during the idle animation. Max Sp.Atk makes the Pokemon's eyes glow occasionally, for example. Shiny Pokemon are good evidence that people are willing to put in work for visual distinction, and having IVs also exist to scratch that itch would be fun.

I've seen the idea of a randomized spread that has a set total being used instead of breedable IVs, and I quite frankly find that idea absolutely terrible.
People hate randomness. People hate missing Bonemerang 3 times in a row. People hate crits. People will specifically forego stronger attacks that on average will deal more damage than their weaker counterparts specifically because they might miss during a critical moment. Randomness isn't by nature the antithesis to fair competition, but it should be used sparingly and only in circumstances where it adds complexity in a fun way.
As I said before, the affect that IVs have on casual play is minimal at best and more likely than not completely inconsequential, so having this system does nothing for the casual player.
Competitive players will not just "settle" for a Pokemon that doesn't have the spread that they want. A Physical Sweeper with ANY points into Sp.Atk would immediately go into the box if not straight up released in a system where a point in Sp.Atk means it can't have a point in something useful. They will breed non-stop until they get the exact spread that is calculated to min/max the exact things they want that Pokemon to do. It will be even more obnoxious than breeding for IVs is now because you can't influence it, and will do nothing to add competitive complexity in any meaningful way.
I've seen a comparison to fighting games, but an important distinction is that in a fighting game every character is the same as every other of the same character, and what separates players is the choices they make using the tools that character allots them. Tokido's Akuma has all the same numbers that Infiltration's Akuma does. Imagine how ridiculous it would sound if you suggested that the numbers in a Fighting Game were randomized and Tokido's Akuma has slightly more powerful jabs but has 2f more recovery on Hadouken, while Infiltration's Akuma has a more damaging sweep but a slightly lower walkspeed, and the players can roll the dice to change their Akuma but have no control over what they end up with. That sounds absolutely bonkers, and by bonkers I mean terrible.

TL;DR: Competitive players already pretty much just max out relevant IVs already, so you might as well normalize them. If you want to retain the "unique" aspect to IVs, just make it so that IVs are normalized during competitive battles but give the Pokemon some graphical effect or something (occasional glowing eyes/burning hands/metallic sheen/etc during idle animations or something like that). Randomized spreads with a set total that can't be affected by breeding is one of the worst suggestions I've ever read.
 
Make it affectable by breeding then, the idea was that all Pokemon are different but equal at the same time as opposed to one being outright better than the other. Make us literally able to pick the IV spread if that what it comes to, I don't mind. I only made the suggestion because some people liked the idea of Pokemon being unique, at least to casual players and this idea makes them unique but not outright weak. If the problem is that you can't edit it then make it editable. It would just defeat the purpose and make it the exact same thing but at least casual players aren't dead by default. I don't see how it's *worse* than it ranging from 0-31 (if it can be modified in the current way if not in an even better way that rewards the player through using skill).

I'm all for IV being 31 all around or just not existing. That was what I was getting at in the first place but some liked the uniqueness aspect of it so I tried to find middle ground. The middle ground is that at the moment there is no uniqueness anyway because everyone wants 31 in everything. But if it was a spread then as long as I have perfect special attack and speed I am not then resetting my spread of 40% defence and 60% special defence because Smogon says I should have it 70/30. Thus even in competitive they will be unique (remember people want unique pokemon but not unique fighters in fighting games it's why IV exist in the first place). My proposal was given that IV will still exist. If we are getting rid of IV altogether then hooray.

Also people hate randomness like you said and that's why IV are terrible in the first place. They are random. Even though they can be bred they were completely random until very recently, and even now they are random but you just have more ways to manipulate the randomness.
 
Personalise I kind of like it but the problem is its too time consuming. I don't expect it to happen instantly but with my free time it would take me weeks to put together a team let alone test it.

I disagree with people saying everything should just be about learning to battle. To me pokemon at its hard is a game about training our monster. So in that sense I like that it takes a while to get a team together. Maybe if they could just make that time frame slightly more reasonable.

If that happens I would start playing Pokemon again, as is I just can't justify the time.
 
Pretty much whenever I see a pokemon fan obsessed with IVs, I assume they hate fun. Because anybody who focuses on them to such an extent seems to find every way they can to suck the fun out of the game entirely. Competitive pokemon is a joke. It's often just a bunch of cheaters and hackers throwing their hacks at each other to see who cheated harder. And even for the ones that dont cheat, all their stats are basically the same and all the movesets pre-defined based on some list they read online, so why does it matter anymore?

I like that the stats under normal play are unique, makes it feel more special and personal, but basically I dont like that people can find out exactly what those stats are and use/abuse them.
 
Pretty much whenever I see a pokemon fan obsessed with IVs, I assume they hate fun. Because anybody who focuses on them to such an extent seems to find every way they can to suck the fun out of the game entirely. Competitive pokemon is a joke. It's often just a bunch of cheaters and hackers throwing their hacks at each other to see who cheated harder. And even for the ones that dont cheat, all their stats are basically the same and all the movesets pre-defined based on some list they read online, so why does it matter anymore?

I like that the stats under normal play are unique, makes it feel more special and personal, but basically I dont like that people can find out exactly what those stats are and use/abuse them.

Damn this hurt because it's true :/
 
Make it affectable by breeding then, the idea was that all Pokemon are different but equal at the same time as opposed to one being outright better than the other. Make us literally able to pick the IV spread if that what it comes to, I don't mind. I only made the suggestion because some people liked the idea of Pokemon being unique, at least to casual players and this idea makes them unique but not outright weak. If the problem is that you can't edit it then make it editable. It would just defeat the purpose and make it the exact same thing but at least casual players aren't dead by default. I don't see how it's *worse* than it ranging from 0-31 (if it can be modified in the current way if not in an even better way that rewards the player through using skill).

I'm all for IV being 31 all around or just not existing. That was what I was getting at in the first place but some liked the uniqueness aspect of it so I tried to find middle ground.

That's why I suggested that, if you want to retain the uniqueness aspect of it, it should be tied to cosmetics instead of stats. By nature, cosmetics are more noticeable than a tiny invisible stat.

If the player had agency over how the stats were spread, then a spread w/ a stat total system would absolutely work and in no way be worse than the current breedable IV system, but you're right in that it would defeat the purpose of uniqueness.
The problem, though, is that uniqueness tied to stats will ALWAYS make some Pokemon objectively worse. Assuming two physical attackers with equal Atk stats, the one with more points into Sp.Atk will be objectively worse than the other, because that's a stat that isn't even conditionally useful. Removing player agency only makes that more frustrating, but adding player agency just kinda makes it a mini-version of EVs so its existence as a separate system is a bit moot.

I really do think IVs being tied to cosmetics is the way to go.
 
Pretty much whenever I see a pokemon fan obsessed with IVs, I assume they hate fun. Because anybody who focuses on them to such an extent seems to find every way they can to suck the fun out of the game entirely. Competitive pokemon is a joke. It's often just a bunch of cheaters and hackers throwing their hacks at each other to see who cheated harder. And even for the ones that dont cheat, all their stats are basically the same and all the movesets pre-defined based on some list they read online, so why does it matter anymore?

I like that the stats under normal play are unique, makes it feel more special and personal, but basically I dont like that people can find out exactly what those stats are and use/abuse them.

So Pokemon is pretty much the same as every competitive game then?

I play competitive because it's fun and I hate IVs but don't complain about them because there's no point :/
 
That's why I suggested that, if you want to retain the uniqueness aspect of it, it should be tied to cosmetics instead of stats. By nature, cosmetics are more noticeable than a tiny invisible stat.

If the player had agency over how the stats were spread, then a spread w/ a stat total system would absolutely work and in no way be worse than the current breedable IV system, but you're right in that it would defeat the purpose of uniqueness.
The problem, though, is that uniqueness tied to stats will ALWAYS make some Pokemon objectively worse. Assuming two physical attackers with equal Atk stats, the one with more points into Sp.Atk will be objectively worse than the other, because that's a stat that isn't even conditionally useful. Removing player agency only makes that more frustrating, but adding player agency just kinda makes it a mini-version of EVs so its existence as a separate system is a bit moot.

I really do think IVs being tied to cosmetics is the way to go.

Yeah I know, it would just be going for perfect special attack and speed and 0 in attack, and not caring about the rest. It's almost the same thing except at least there's a slight chance of uniqueness if we don't care about the hp defence and special defence spread. But in an example I gave earlier at least a casual gamer who didn't alter their IV might actually pull through cos their Alakazam has a high defence. There might be an instance where that defence that you don't have cos you gave it to special attack makes a difference. He survives a hit and wins. It's just much more fair than a pokemon simply being worse. Yes it's random and people hate random but at least it'll randomly be an Alakazam that has good defence and not randomly be an Alakazam that sucks at everything. Going back to your fighting example, yeah instead of my move doing a little more damage and you being a little faster, it's right now literally me dashing across the screen and one shotting you while you can barely damage me. (Unless we both spent two hours before the game doing nothing but just staring at our character, then we simply start on the same stats, except for all i know you might have got extremely lucky or cheated and achieved that in 2 minutes)

The cosmetic changes will be cool but again why work so hard for them? Why not just be able to customise your Pokemon? Why make us *work* and only *work* for something whether it be for IV or for cosmetic changes? Why can't i at least beat a fun mini game or complete a fun pokemon quiz? Or just advance in the story? Beat a gym leader? Why must I just roll a dice and wait and be rewarded that way?
 
I have yet to see a good justification for IVs on a mechanical level. They basically just make competitive Pokemon harder to get into for causal players, which really sucks since its honestly quite fun! I don't think most people care about the "uniqueness" of their Pokemon via stats,

I think tying IVs into cosmetics as has been mentioned in this thread is a much, much better idea. If people wanna breed a lot to get their special ultra shiny two tailed Pikachu or whatever, I don't think there's any harm in that. But when it comes to playing the game, IVs just make everything a really lame grind, especially when soft reseting for useful legendary Pokemon.

If people really want IVs to stay for some bizarre reason, I'd at least want Gamefreak to introduce a way to raise them. It'd be nice for the Pokemon I actually catch ingame to be useful online instead of having to wait for the day care to whip something good up!

If it means much, Generation 6 is quite a bit more accessible competitively than previous ones, since breeding mechanics with stuff like Destiny Knot making breeding stuff within a day a reasonable, if tedious feat. Battle Spot Ladders are also pretty great this gen too, as they have a fairly skilled userbase that's great for testing stuff on! I'm hoping this is a sign that Gamefreak is starting to "get it", and will remove more barriers to competitive play for the average player!
 
Yeah I know, it would just be going for perfect special attack and speed and 0 in attack, and not caring about the rest. It's almost the same thing except at least there's a slight chance of uniqueness if we don't care about the hp defence and special defence spread. But in an example I gave earlier at least a casual gamer who didn't alter their IV might actually pull through cos their Alakazam has a high defence. There might be an instance where that defence that you don't have cos you gave it to special attack makes a difference. He survives a hit and wins. It's just much more fair than a pokemon simply being worse. Yes it's random and people hate random but at least it'll randomly be an Alakazam that has good defence and not randomly be an Alakazam that sucks at everything. Going back to your fighting example, yeah instead of my move doing a little more damage and you being a little faster, it's right now literally me dashing across the screen and one shotting you while you can barely damage me.

The cosmetic changes will be cool but again why work so hard for them? Why not just be able to customise your Pokemon? Why make us *work* and only *work* for something whether it be for IV or for cosmetic changes? Why can't i at least beat a fun mini game or complete a fun pokemon quiz? Or just advance in the story? Beat a gym leader? Why must I just roll a dice and wait and be rewarded that way?

Well, if IVs are only tied to cosmetics, they could increase the ways in which they're increased. Some Pokemon are born smart, but maybe they could add in PokeQuizes that increase Sp.Atk or something. That actually sounds like a really fun aspect they could add to the game, and would increase the bond that people feel with their Pokemon.
 
I have yet to see a good justification for IVs on a mechanical level. They basically just make competitive Pokemon harder to get into for causal players, which really sucks since its honestly quite fun! I don't think most people care about the "uniqueness" of their Pokemon via stats,

I think tying IVs into cosmetics as has been mentioned in this thread is a much, much better idea. If people wanna breed a lot to get their special ultra shiny two tailed Pikachu or whatever, I don't think there's any harm in that. But when it comes to playing the game, IVs just make everything a really lame grind, especially when soft reseting for useful legendary Pokemon.

If people really want IVs to stay for some bizarre reason, I'd at least want Gamefreak to introduce a way to raise them. It'd be nice for the Pokemon I actually catch ingame to be useful online instead of having to wait for the day care to whip something good up!

If it means much, Generation 6 is quite a bit more accessible competitively than previous ones, since breeding mechanics with stuff like Destiny Knot making breeding stuff within a day a reasonable, if tedious feat. Battle Spot Ladders are also pretty great this gen too, as they have a fairly skilled userbase that's great for testing stuff on! I'm hoping this is a sign that Gamefreak is starting to "get it", and will remove more barriers to competitive play for the average player!

The only reason we are considering breeding and riding the bike up and down for cosmetic changes is because it's a thing that already exists and we are trying to justify its existence or not make radical changes.

If this thing didn't exist in the first place then we wouldn't suggest it. I do not see why I can't earn cosmetic changes through fun or skill. Like the examples I gave above.

Heck, if it's going to take me three hours (and no fun and nothing gained in my life) to earn that two tailed Pikachu I may aswell just pay a pound for it. Time is money after all. I'm sorry but this is the one instance where it really isn't fun. I have such a huge backlog of games to play and even in Pokémon itself there's so many fun things to do that I can't justify it. Normally when you play a game for three hours your either have fun or improve a certain skill in some way.
 
I have been playing Pokémon since 99 and I to this day I have no idea how IV really work.

But I do know that it's a lot of work to get the perfect IV Pokémon.

Pretty much whenever I see a pokemon fan obsessed with IVs, I assume they hate fun. Because anybody who focuses on them to such an extent seems to find every way they can to suck the fun out of the game entirely. Competitive pokemon is a joke. It's often just a bunch of cheaters and hackers throwing their hacks at each other to see who cheated harder. And even for the ones that dont cheat, all their stats are basically the same and all the movesets pre-defined based on some list they read online, so why does it matter anymore?

I like that the stats under normal play are unique, makes it feel more special and personal, but basically I dont like that people can find out exactly what those stats are and use/abuse them.

This exactly how I feel about competitive Pokémon battle, I tried building a team but catching the best Pokémon was a pain and then I thought about having to breed them I was like screw that I don't have the time for that especially with cheaters on-line.

Plus I have more fun playing the story mode as the journey and adventure feels more personal and fun for me.

But whenever I complain about it being to too easy and that I think that Game Freak could improve on the difficultly, I always get the snarky response "Play on-line" when I have no desire to do so and totally discarding the fact that playing on-line doesn't fix the problem at all.

Maybe I one day I will create a competitive on-line team but I will do it because I want to not because someone told to do it.
 
Fantastic thread, i wanna do a long post but im about to go to work. I will say though I see a lot of fair-mindedness and people trying to understand all sides in the thread which is awesome
 
I have been playing Pokémon since 99 and I to this day I have no idea how IV really work.

But I do know that it's a lot of work to get the perfect IV Pokémon.



This exactly how I feel about competitive Pokémon battle, I tried building a team but catching the best Pokémon was a pain and then I thought about having to breed them I was like screw that I don't have the time for that especially with cheaters on-line.

Plus I have more fun playing the story mode as the journey and adventure feels more personal and fun for me.

But whenever I complain about it being to too easy and that I think that Game Freak could improve on the difficultly, I always get the snarky response "Play on-line" when I have no desire to do so and totally discarding the fact that playing on-line doesn't fix the problem at all.

Maybe I one day I will create a competitive on-line team but I will do it because I want to not because someone told to do it.

It actually always confused me that Pokemon games don't have a difficulty setting. It could just be something as simple as a multipler on Trainer and Gym battles to raise or lower their Pokemon's levels.
 
Fantastic thread, i wanna do a long post but im about to go to work. I will say though I see a lot of fair-mindedness and people trying to understand all sides in the thread which is awesome

Hey thanks for this post, I was wondering if I was being a bit much and should sit back a little and let others discuss.

I'm actually having a very light hearted discussion and respecting everyone's opinions. It's my love for Pokemon making me write so much and also having strong opinions, nothing else :)
 
Well, if IVs are only tied to cosmetics, they could increase the ways in which they're increased. Some Pokemon are born smart, but maybe they could add in PokeQuizes that increase Sp.Atk or something. That actually sounds like a really fun aspect they could add to the game, and would increase the bond that people feel with their Pokemon.

I like this idea. Some pokemon could require more (fun) work but they all have the same potential in the end. That way no Pokemon are completely useless and released into the wild either.

It actually always confused me that Pokemon games don't have a difficulty setting. It could just be something as simple as a multipler on Trainer and Gym battles to raise or lower their Pokemon's levels.

Agreed. I suppose they want everyone to be on the same page, but I don't see any advantages to that. Infact they don't have to even make you pick the difficulty at the start as that can be intimidating. As you're playing a character can tell you hey I heard rumours that the path to the left has tough trainers who have been secretly training, and then you choose whether to go left or right, both leading to the same place. You don't miss out on anything as the dialogue and everything will be the same. Or when you get to a gym leader he can say something like you look strong do you have the courage to take on my father instead? And he will have an extra pokemon or two but the rewards are the same. Just a very quick idea but there's many different ways the main story can have optional difficulty.
 
It actually always confused me that Pokemon games don't have a difficulty setting. It could just be something as simple as a multipler on Trainer and Gym battles to raise or lower their Pokemon's levels.

We had one in Black and White 2 but it was locked till post game and was version exclusive and you had to send the key to a different version.

So they had the right idea but poorly executed it and instead of refining the idea in gen 6 they just dropped it completely.

It was so dumb and annoying, but eh that's Game Freak for you. ¬_¬;
 
The concept of a fixed sized pool of IVs is still something I'm against because most Pokemon are only ever useful in a few specific roles. It still generates pointless busy-work and class stratification

It's something that makes every Pokemon different. On top of that, while it is possible to get a 6 perfect IV Pokemon, it's difficult to. Often people make a concession and take 5 perfect IVs, with the sixth one being what doesn't really matter to that particular Pokemon (for instance, if you have a special attacker, you can get perfect IVs in everything but attack and not have to worry about it).
A special attacker's attack stat should be low as possible because of confusion and foul play
 
screw the god damn IV's. Major reason why I stay away from competitive pokemon experience.

Random to me sounds cool. I'd rather just deal with move breeding and EV's, those are fine. IV makes sense but a stupid time drain. At least make the all have 30 or 31 from the start.

They should get rid of them. Tbh i'd rather be playing showdown than wasting my life away with the most boring shit in the world: breeding pokemon for IVs.

100%. Why play x/y competitively when I could just play showdown, where I don't have to worry about that nonsense.
 
The only thing I dislike about IVs is that they prevent me from using a few Pokemon that I like, because it's hard to get Hidden Power types for coverage on top of getting the desired 31s. I enjoy the grind to a certain extent, but I will inevitably build my perfect team on Showdown and get the competitive bug out of my system until the next generation comes out. I wouldn't mind them being completely removed, or being reworked to reduce the grind, but I don't think the IV system as it is right now is a complete deal breaker.
 
The only thing I dislike about IVs is that they prevent me from using a few Pokemon that I like, because it's hard to get Hidden Power types for coverage on top of getting the desired 31s. I enjoy the grind to a certain extent, but I will inevitably build my perfect team on Showdown and get the competitive bug out of my system until the next generation comes out. I wouldn't mind them being completely removed, or being reworked to reduce the grind, but I don't think the IV system as it is right now is a complete deal breaker.
I will say I don't want the grind to be removed completely. I do find joy in looking over a box of Pokemon, picking one up and saying "You. You'll be the one". There are other ways of introducing that factor to breeding without it affecting stats so heavily though.
 
I've spent hundreds of hours breeding Pokémon for perfect IVs. X and Y made things much easier than trying to get a perfect Pokémon in Black or the older games, but it still takes a good amount of time to breed the 'perfect' team.

I think removing IVs (Or at least greatly modifying them) would be a good thing. EVs are all we need to add that variety to our Pokémon, imo. A random, unchangeable element that can make your Pokémon objectively worse than someone else's, is not conducive to balanced play. (And I know Pokémon themselves aren't the most balanced things anyway, but still)
 
Why would IVs be used for cosmetics? They haven't used IVs for cosmetics since the second gen.

These days cosmetic stuff (and abilities) already have data that holds stuff like Shiny, Spinda Patterns, Wurmple Evolutions, Unown count and other such stuff. There's no need to tie any of that to IVs.
 
Pretty much whenever I see a pokemon fan obsessed with IVs, I assume they hate fun. Because anybody who focuses on them to such an extent seems to find every way they can to suck the fun out of the game entirely. Competitive pokemon is a joke. It's often just a bunch of cheaters and hackers throwing their hacks at each other to see who cheated harder. And even for the ones that dont cheat, all their stats are basically the same and all the movesets pre-defined based on some list they read online, so why does it matter anymore?

I like that the stats under normal play are unique, makes it feel more special and personal, but basically I dont like that people can find out exactly what those stats are and use/abuse them.

Add to this the hideous and terrible way the Global Trade Station has been broken since its inception and you have why online Pokemon is awful to the core
 
This isn't a bad idea. For example all 6 of the IV add up to 31. They are distributed randomly and cannot be influenced in any way at all, even through breeding. So for example I might have:

HP +4
ATK +8
Def: +2
SpAtk: +5
SpDef: +5
Speed: +7

Yeah you can still hack or breed if you really want +15 each on speed and attack but hey even if people will go online randomly without knowing about IV they won't get completely destroyed. (Plus you'd then have lower defence and HP) It's definitely a million times better than the current way of doing it. Nice one. All Pokemon are equal in strength but have different strengths.

Personally I'd also make +10 be the maximum for a stat.

Ever pokemon has +31 strength, just distributed differently due to genetics or whatnot. It doesn't range from bloody +0 to +186

As someone who is fed up with IVs, this seems very reasonable to me.
 
Just wanted to drop in and say IVs are the single thing preventing me from playing pokemon online.

Such a horrible system. Very rewarding for cheaters though.
 
They will just continue to make it easier every gen. Right now it's really simple and relatively quick, but there are always ways to speed things up even more. I don't really see the point in cutting them out.

Pretty much whenever I see a pokemon fan obsessed with IVs, I assume they hate fun. Because anybody who focuses on them to such an extent seems to find every way they can to suck the fun out of the game entirely. Competitive pokemon is a joke. It's often just a bunch of cheaters and hackers throwing their hacks at each other to see who cheated harder. And even for the ones that dont cheat, all their stats are basically the same and all the movesets pre-defined based on some list they read online, so why does it matter anymore?

I like that the stats under normal play are unique, makes it feel more special and personal, but basically I dont like that people can find out exactly what those stats are and use/abuse them.

What you said is true for every competitive game and there are people who obviously like breeding for various reasons. Also, people who are actually good at the game use their knowledge of the game to come up with their pokemon spreads rather than relying on sites like Smogon and Nuggetbridge.
 
Pretty much whenever I see a pokemon fan obsessed with IVs, I assume they hate fun. Because anybody who focuses on them to such an extent seems to find every way they can to suck the fun out of the game entirely. Competitive pokemon is a joke. It's often just a bunch of cheaters and hackers throwing their hacks at each other to see who cheated harder. And even for the ones that dont cheat, all their stats are basically the same and all the movesets pre-defined based on some list they read online, so why does it matter anymore?

I like that the stats under normal play are unique, makes it feel more special and personal, but basically I dont like that people can find out exactly what those stats are and use/abuse them.

I really hope that you are joking because this is one of the dumbest posts I've read on GAF in a long time.
 
They will just continue to make it easier every gen. Right now it's really simple and relatively quick, but there are always ways to speed things up even more. I don't really see the point in cutting them out.

But if they're just going to trivialize it until it's irrelevant, what's the point in keeping it?
 
They will just continue to make it easier every gen. Right now it's really simple and relatively quick, but there are always ways to speed things up even more. I don't really see the point in cutting them out.

I'd assume they'd remove them because they're unfun grinding that serves to drive people away from playing the game. They're also extremely rewarding to cheaters, and cheaters populating any community makes me sad.

IVs are literally the sole thing keeping me from playing pokemon. Hell, I don't even buy the games any more because I know I won't be playing the fun part. I understand that I'm the minority, but the sentiment that IVs are keeping people from playing has been said quite a few times in this thread.

No it wouldn't. That'd make things so much worse.

Genetics is the apt metaphor for it. You're stuck with what you're given from birth. You inherit some from your parents with some genetic wildcards.

Exactly, it's like pro sports.

99.99% of everyone who would like to participate is useless garbage.

What a great lesson for the kids. How very fun.
 
But if they're just going to trivialize it until it's irrelevant, what's the point in keeping it?
On the casual side I think having those differences is interesting and I think removing them would be a big blow to the trade community in addition to trivializing breeding a bit.
I'd assume they'd remove them because they're unfun grinding that serves to drive people away from playing the game. They're also extremely rewarding to cheaters, and cheaters populating any community makes me sad.

IVs are literally the sole thing keeping me from playing pokemon. Hell, I don't even buy the games any more because I know I won't be playing the fun part. I understand that I'm the minority, but the sentiment that IVs are keeping people from playing has been said quite a few times in this thread.
No matter what they do there will be a large amount of people playing the game will be cheating because they don't even want to bother with the catching process. Given the they will probably continue to make it an even quicker process, but I don't see them just removing it. There are people who enjoy breeding their teams for the sense of accomplishment and as you said you are in the minority. For all I know they could be wrong and go all the way in the next generation, but that's obviously impossible to predict.

While I understand why people just want to play competitively without having to put in the amount of work currently required, it really feels like there is a lot of exaggeration going on with how difficult it actually is to get a team in modern Pokemon games what with all the changes they've made to breeding and the game's online features.
 
Given the amount of hours I've seen people pour into contests the night before a tournament instead of practicing or sleeping, don't worry, people are totally down to breed for cosmetics.
 
No matter what they do there will be a large amount of people playing the game will be cheating because they don't even want to bother with the catching process. Given the they will probably continue to make it an even quicker process, but I don't see them just removing it. There are people who enjoy breeding their teams for the sense of accomplishment and as you said you are in the minority. For all I know they could be wrong and go all the way in the next generation, but that's obviously impossible to predict.

While I understand why people just want to play competitively without having to put in the amount of work currently required, it really feels like there is a lot of exaggeration going on with how difficult it actually is to get a team in modern Pokemon games what with all the changes they've made to breeding and the game's online features.

OK, I grant you that no matter what there will be a large amount of cheaters. How about we change the game so that they are not rewarded with superior pokemon to noncheaters? If their cheating puts them on a level playing field that bothers me significantly less than them legitimately having better pokemon than I would have by playing properly.

Breeding pokemon just isn't fun to me; it's repetitive nonsense that can be quickly outdone by anyone willing to use a gameshark. Just sucks because you can't compete in battles if you don't breed, and I'm not starting that time sink again despite really enjoying pokemon battles.

*Edit*

Wait Reddit is giving away duped dittos and people look down on cheaters? Hell, given that it feels like cheating is accepted by this community.

I don't blame them.
 
While I understand why people just want to play competitively without having to put in the amount of work currently required, it really feels like there is a lot of exaggeration going on with how difficult it actually is to get a team in modern Pokemon games what with all the changes they've made to breeding and the game's online features.

That's because I bet most of the people complaining haven't actually bother to even breed one Pokemon. The hyperbole is pretty insane in somes case which makes me believe some people are still trying to breed a competitive Pokemon in Gen III.

OK, I grant you that no matter what there will be a large amount of cheaters. How about we change the game so that they are not rewarded with superior pokemon to noncheaters? If their cheating puts them on a level playing field that bothers me significantly less than them legitimately having better pokemon than I would have by playing properly.

Breeding pokemon just isn't fun to me; it's repetitive nonsense that can be quickly outdone by anyone willing to use a gameshark. Just sucks because you can't compete in battles if you don't breed, and I'm not starting that time sink again despite really enjoying pokemon battles.

*Edit*

Wait Reddit is giving away duped dittos and people look down on cheaters? Hell, given that it feels like cheating is accepted by this community.

I don't blame them.

In all seriousness, most people that play competitively seriously don't really care if you hacked your Pokemon. At the end of the day, breeding or hacking has nothing to do with someone's battling skills.
 
In all seriousness, most people that play competitively seriously don't really care if you hacked your Pokemon. At the end of the day, breeding or hacking has nothing to do with someone's battling skills.

...word?

Anyone have any suggestions for any good programs? I'm sure there's some preferred names and I can't imagine googling "pokemon hacks" will be overly productive.
 
In all seriousness, most people that play competitively seriously don't really care if you hacked your Pokemon. At the end of the day, breeding or hacking has nothing to do with someone's battling skills.
There's an important caveat here:

If you do hack and then proceed to fuck up and get caught, everyone who doesn't hack now has the right to make fun of you. (This means you, Level 50 Volcarona guy)
 
I don't mind them all that much tbh. They're fairly easy to manipulate, and I do like the connection to genetics. Then again, you're clearly indulging in eugenics, lol.

The only thing i'd really change is give legendary Pokemon/event Pokemon perfect IVs. Soft resetting for the perfect IV spread on these is fairly obnoxious.
 
I guess I don't think IVs are the problem on their own. It's just the implementation that's the problem. They don't make pokemon unique. They make pokemon bad. They promote treating your pokemon in the exact opposite way that the game claims it wants you to. They go against the themes of friendship, loyalty, love, hard work, etc. and instead reinforce not caring about pokemon as individuals, and yeah, eugenics. And on top of that, they aren't fun to deal with. They only people who know they exist are the same people who try to eliminate their purpose.

The way IVs work can be summed up like this. Some pokemon are born worse than others, and there is nothing they can do about it. In order to keep IVs, but fix them, all we have to do is change part of that sentence. Some pokemon are born worse than others, but there is something they can do about it. In my mind, that fixes everything. Pokemon born with bad IVs should be able to train harder than other pokemon in order to be even/compete with them. Training harder=putting in more effort=more effort values. I think the way to fix IVs is to leave IVs the way they are, and instead change the way effort values work.

Pokemon with lower IVs should be allowed to gain a higher number of EVs in order to make up for the difference. Say I've got a pikachu with 31 speed IVs and another with 0 speed IVs. The pikachu with 31 needs to fight X number of battles in order to reach maximum EVs in speed. But the pikachu with 0 IVs needs to fight more battles because the game allows them to gain a higher number of EVs than the other pokemon. So by the time you're done training your pokemon, they will be of equal strength stat-wise, the the "weaker" pikachu had to work harder to get to that point. I don't know the calculations, so I don't know what the numbers would need to be, but I imagine it wouldn't be too hard for them to implement such a system. And I don't know how many more battles you'd have to fight, but between horde battles and power items, it would still take far less time than breeding.

And I think it's good because it fixes a lot of problems, and it works within the fiction as well. You're no longer breeding for hours and throwing away scraps, so it's better for the fiction, because instead of being a mad scientist treating pokemon like items and experiments, you actually act like a proper trainer. And it can be less time consuming and more fun than the current system. Especially if they also change the way EVs are gained. Super Training was a good start, but it's not really a great solution in practice. Instead, they should just look to the real world for the answer. I should be able to simply choose which aspect my pokemon is going to "train" at any given time, regardless of who I'm fighting. On the super training screen, there should be buttons for every stat, and I should just be able to tap one and say "Ok, today pikachu is training in Special Attack". And from then on, until that stat is maxed out or until I switch to another one, my pikachu will not gain any EVs in any other stat but Special Attack. Think about it. If I go to the gym, I don't gain muscles randomly. I specifically choose to work out my arms, or my legs, or I specifically choose to run. Would be nice if pokemon worked the same way. Metaphorically, it would work as well. "This is what pikachu and I are working on right now." Simple.

And they should encourage practicing for real, even if you don't have perfect EVs yet. As in, we should actually be able to gain stuff from playing online because 1.) that actually helps the people more as competitive players, and 2.) again, it works better with the fiction. Battling against real trainers makes you and your pokemon better. They could make it so you get a set number of EVs for the whole team if you win, and a lower set number of EVs if you lose, and a set number for each individual pokemon depending on their number of KOs. Just encourage people to play and experiment online. Two birds with one stone.

And as far as making each pokemon unique, well IVs were always a horrible way to do that, since people simply don't notice those things in casual play. I think a better way would be to actually make changes to how pokemon look/act. It might be difficult since there's 700+ pokemon, but I think a few simple tricks would work. First, they can change each pokemon's appearance based on a few variables within certain ranges. In the pokedex, it shows what the size of each pokemon is. Instead of being a static number, this should be a range. And when you catch a pokemon, it will randomly fall somewhere within that range, and if you compare it to another of the same species, you'll be able to tell that your friends Charizard is slightly smaller than yours. They should do the same thing with a pokemon's color as well. Yes, they already have shiny pokemon, and that's really good and really fun and should stay incredibly rare. But again, there could be a range within the same palette that each pokemon could fall into randomly. Using Charizard as an example again, my Charizard is a slightly, but noticeably darker orange than my friend's, and the skin on his wings falls more towards the lighter blue side than greenish blue. And each pokemon could have it's own unique animation when it comes out of its pokeball. Say each species has 3 different animations, and each individual gets one randomly. I assume all of this stuff would just be randomly calculated upon finding them in the wild or hatching them.

Personally, I think there's a lot they could do to make the entire experience better and fit more inline with their fiction. These ideas are just the tip of the iceberg.
 
[Wall of Text]

Yeah, if IVs are going to be randomized at birth, the important thing is to give players agency over it and to allow them to compensate for it in some way (whether it's more battles like your example or with fun minigames like another poster's previous example).
 
I don't have a clue what you're talking about in general, but when I did beat Soul Silver and reloaded my file to beat Red with nothing but my Hypno/Drowzee team I noticed that all of their stats weren't identical. This may be due to me using minerals on them, but you did say there's already a system in place for this, so using Proteins and stuff might not matter, but I don't know I think the minerals play some kind of role in final stats.
 
And I think it's good because it fixes a lot of problems, and it works within the fiction as well. You're no longer breeding for hours and throwing away scraps, so it's better for the fiction, because instead of being a mad scientist treating pokemon like items and experiments, you actually act like a proper trainer. And it can be less time consuming and more fun than the current system. Especially if they also change the way EVs are gained. Super Training was a good start, but it's not really a great solution in practice. Instead, they should just look to the real world for the answer. I should be able to simply choose which aspect my pokemon is going to "train" at any given time, regardless of who I'm fighting. On the super training screen, there should be buttons for every stat, and I should just be able to tap one and say "Ok, today pikachu is training in Special Attack". And from then on, until that stat is maxed out or until I switch to another one, my pikachu will not gain any EVs in any other stat but Special Attack. Think about it. If I go to the gym, I don't gain muscles randomly. I specifically choose to work out my arms, or my legs, or I specifically choose to run. Would be nice if pokemon worked the same way. Metaphorically, it would work as well. "This is what pikachu and I are working on right now." Simple.

But EV training isn't random. It is what you choose to train, just like when you go to a gym. You don't say "I'm going to work on my biceps today" and then go on a treadmill and expect that to work. Using your analogy, Effort Training is exactly what you're saying.

I don't agree that you should select what to train and any Pokémon will do it. That doesn't make sense.

EV Training is barely an issue anymore. You can full EV train a Pokémon in about 15 minutes now.
 
But EV training isn't random. It is what you choose to train, just like when you go to a gym. You don't say "I'm going to work on my biceps today" and then go on a treadmill and expect that to work. Using your analogy, Effort Training is exactly what you're saying.

I don't agree that you should select what to train and any Pokémon will do it. That doesn't make sense.

EV Training is barely an issue anymore. You can full EV train a Pokémon in about 15 minutes now.

I know it isn't random. Using horde battles is great and easy, so I don't have a problem with it on its own. I still think it would like it better if I can earn the EVs I want regardless of who I'm fighting by choosing which EVs I want to be training at any given time. Especially if I could earn them while fighting online. Or earn them while earning BP in the battle maison. Or earn them from the very beginning of the adventure so I don't have to reset my pokemon and train them again. Like I said. Two birds, one stone.

But that part doesn't really matter. The actual process of gaining EVs is technically fine the way it is now that horde battles exist, so I don't have any real complaints about that, just a preference.
 
Great post Gsnap I agree with everything you said.

The current system doesn't make Pokemon differ, all it does is make 99% of then out there completely useless. Makes them better than eachother, not different. It's a terrible system.

Really? Because it was a really stupid and not very well thought out post with little basis in fact.

Why? It's got a lot if truth to it. For me there's no other franchise that I would sit there blindly doing nothing for hours for better stats. Also like i said before in oficial tounament everyone knows everyone cheated but no one says anything because they can't, and it must be the biggest case where everyone lies to themselves because I think it's the only franchise where you can "buy" or "hack" the part of the game you have to "earn". Like I said before you can't hack skill in a fighting game.

The only part not entirely true is the Smogon part and copying movesets but the reason why that point is valid is that there's no doubt that if sites like that didn't exist then people would be more creative with coming up with their own movesets etc but this is the case with any game really. There's always a "better" way to play so a lot of people will use that as their base and improve from there which is fine.
 
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