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[PeteBull]

Quick off topic. Is it true G4 had Amouranth on their show to try and boost ratings?

Yups i saw recaps, she was in bathing suit playing with blue balls in a "pool" and everything, basically lowest possible sex symbol/objectifying to the max somehow she has looks not like Abby/Alloy but what actual majority of guys prefer, despite what all those woke trash try to tell u, even including gaffers, who knows maybe those are former/current woketera members too, hell maybe those are even mods from there who made accounts here, i wouldnt be surprised seeing their train of thoughts and line of woke-defense

Wonder how that feminazi from 2 months ago fellt

 

[MilkyJoe]

You guys wouldn't believe the tits on this chick I just passed on the way to work... wowzers...

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

you missed the point….it was about "womens depiction harms self esteem" hence if there was men in underwear it would also harm mens self esteem and we would all be with low self esteem lol

Don't drag me back to this thread. I don't care about how fictional characters should look/act etc!

Hence it's all ridiculous! With so many issues on the gaming industry y'all decided to focus on this "issue"
Like I said before, games are made for straight men and I'm not straight so I don't care. Not going into a crusade to demonize straight men either.

I'm a pretty chill guy, but some things written here are funny/ scary / confusing

Are you a resetera poster, btw?

 

[Zeroing]

Are you a resetera poster, btw?

I do not even know what that is, a forum? I do not even have twitter, I try to stay away from all this internet nonsense. NeoGAF is the only thing I use.

 

[PeteBull]

I do not even know what that is, a forum? I do not even have twitter, I try to stay away from all this internet nonsense. NeoGAF is the only thing I use.

Then its pretty weird u miracolously stumbled onto this very thread and decided to die on a hill defending already lost woke agenda, nonetheless gl u will need it, not easy to fight vs tousands of years of human biology

 

[Zeroing]

Then its pretty weird u miracolously stumbled onto this very thread and decided to die on a hill defending already lost woke agenda, nonetheless gl u will need it, not easy to fight vs tousands of years of human biology

U click on gaming forums and voila you find the newest stuff people are discussing. If by woke you mean me rolling my eyes while straight men cry over the lack of beautiful women in video games...yeah I am pretty woke indeed.

You know why I roll my eyes? There was this little unknown YouTube channel until some dickheads decided to talk about it online, treats etc... then that little youtube channel gained attention from media and that person from the youtube channel unleashed ugly women... y'all done it to yourselves.

So please spare me, not everything is an attack to straight men.

 

[BbMajor7th]

If even the thing that people pass for music nowadays has a science behind it, why would you think beauty hasn't? That's why I said it has objective standards.
What I don't understand is why push this so hard as in "it's the devs choice", only when the woman in the game look as squared jaw as a dude.
And when the design looks like Project Eve, it gets a lot of shit by the same crowd that is stating "it's up to the devs" in this very thread?

I mean, I don't have any problem with Project Eve, or traditionally attractive portrayals of women - nor do I think it's right to completely redefine feminine beauty within another separate narrow framework. I think diversity in representation should be the goal, not a shift from one box to another: no two women are alike after all and no one representation should speak for all. To me, the healthy space is one where Dead or Alive Beach Volley Ball and TLOU2 can both exist without people getting bent out of shape. The historical disservice done to women in representation isn't necessarily that they were presented as symbols of beauty but that they were only ever presented as symbols of beauty. Male characters have always been more varied - they could be handsome and square-jawed, skinny, cultured and smart or ugly and stupid and nobody cared; women always had to be beautified.

 

[Tommi84]

Just to be sure: what is your point here?

The in-game model looks like an ugly woman/half man. Even me, half blind with my bad eyesight , can see the difference

 

[InfiniteCombo]

Does lifting wieght in Yakuza actually put more muscle on the character?

Not more visible muscle on your character model, but it does help boost some stats by quite a bit.

The mini game is both surprisingly simple but yet also kind of involved. You don't only work out, you're also supposed to follow your trainer's meal plan/diet for maximum gains. The gym in the game is called "RIZAP" which apparently is an actual real-life gym in Japan:

RIZAP | Home

RIZAP

sg.rizap-global.com

I enjoyed the mini game because it's simple, and since I like to work out in real life, I've always wanted to see how something like that would translate to a video game.

 

[luij81]

The in-game model looks like an ugly woman/half man. Even me, half blind with my bad eyesight , can see the difference

Maybe your bad eyesight kept you from reading the rest of the conversation that happenend afterwards. Right?

 

[Faithless83]

I mean, I don't have any problem with Project Eve, or traditionally attractive portrayals of women - nor do I think it's right to completely redefine feminine beauty within another separate narrow framework. I think diversity in representation should be the goal, not a shift from one box to another: no two women are alike after all and no one representation should speak for all. To me, the healthy space is one where Dead or Alive Beach Volley Ball and TLOU2 can both exist without people getting bent out of shape. The historical disservice done to women in representation isn't necessarily that they were presented as symbols of beauty but that they were only ever presented as symbols of beauty. Male characters have always been more varied - they could be handsome and square-jawed, skinny, cultured and smart or ugly and stupid and nobody cared; women always had to be beautified.

I think you are trying too hard on this one. Women in games did a lot of "I can do this too" while looking/behaving feminine.
What we have today (in the west) is a demonization of femininity. It's not just that some are ugly, they have next to or zero female physical/psychological traits.

This is not a representation, it's straight up writing a male character and having a female dub. The beauty part is a byproduct of it.

Proportionally, in the west, we have more buffed guys still than other body types since the dawn of pixels and no one bats an eye.

Don't drag me back to this thread. I don't care about how fictional characters should look/act etc!

Hence it's all ridiculous! With so many issues on the gaming industry y'all decided to focus on this "issue"
Like I said before,

These two statements are conflicting in my book. If how fictional characters act is not important, what are the other "so many issues the gaming industry" have?

games are made for straight men and I'm not straight so I don't care. Not going into a crusade to demonize straight men either.

I'm a pretty chill guy, but some things written here are funny/ scary / confusing

Care to mention them?

 

[Zeroing]

These two statements are conflicting in my book. If how fictional characters act is not important, what are the other "so many issues the gaming industry" have?

Care to mention them?

Microtranstations, Lootboxes, release of broken games that need day one patch, and so on.... and so on...

I am pretty sure you can figure that out on your own.

 

[Faithless83]

Microtranstations, Lootboxes, release of broken games that need day one patch, and so on.... and so on...

I am pretty sure you can figure that out on your own.

Are you implying that people aren't vocal about these issues? Really? Are you new here?
We have an entire set of people pushing an agenda to turn gaming into a political tool, but you think day one patch/lootboxes are a bigger problem?

Aaaaand my second question was ignored...

 

[The_Mike]

Wow a western company actually using a decent actor to make a pretty female character.

Now I've seen everything.

Edit: didn't realise that the dev was Square Enix.

 

[Zeroing]

Are you implying that people aren't vocal about these issues? Really? Are you new here?
We have an entire set of people pushing an agenda to turn gaming into a political tool, but you think day one patch/lootboxes are a bigger problem?

Aaaaand my second question was ignored...

I am not interested in whatever game you are tying to start, good luck saving gaming.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Wow a western company actually using a decent actor to make a pretty female character.

Now I've seen everything.

Square Enix isn't western.

 

[Faithless83]

I am not interested in whatever game you are tying to start, good luck saving gaming.

Sounds like you lack the arguments to back your claims. Don't worry, you were not the first.
Lately a lot of people have a hard time constructing ideas on their own, or simply don't have the calm to engage with an opposing idea without getting irritated.

What I'm trying to do here is to show how flimsy some arguments are. Thank you for your help.

 

[BbMajor7th]

I think you are trying too hard on this one. Women in games did a lot of "I can do this too" while looking/behaving feminine.
What we have today (in the west) is a demonization of femininity. It's not just that some are ugly, they have next to or zero female physical/psychological traits.

This is not a representation, it's straight up writing a male character and having a female dub. The beauty part is a byproduct of it.

Proportionally, in the west, we have more buffed guys still than other body types since the dawn of pixels and no one bats an eye.

On point one, this is true, though there are plenty of women out there who do all these things without appealing to traditional notions of feminine appearance behaviour - I don't see an issue with having protagonists like that in games. That said, there aren't actually many - even now - who are like that, Abby from The Last of Us Part II is maybe the best example I can think of someone with more overtly masculine energy, but most others maintain a traditional western notion of feminine appearance and behaviour.

One the second point, I also agree, though it's not nearly as pronounced. Take a look at two of the male leads from one of the biggest selling games of all time: GTAV. Michael and Trevor are ugly, unattractive, middle-aged men - one balding and one with serious dad bod. They haven't an ounce of charisma between them. When we see men like that in games, we think nothing of it, but when we see a woman like Selene from Returnal (who's not nearly so objectionable: her only real crimes are being over forty and exploring an alien planet without make-up on), you get a lot of people taking issue with it. What's the difference? Why is it okay for male protagonists to be older, scruffier and out of shape, but not for women?

Back in the PS3/X360 we had a lot of muscle-bound, square-jawed marine heroes and I'll be honest, I got utterly bored with lame, edge-lord machismo. It wasn't just that I didn't relate to them, it's just that they were all the same. Maybe I get bored easily, but I like variation - I don't want to sit down and play the same game over and over, I want different stuff, and that goes as much for female characters as the male.

We have an entire set of people pushing an agenda to turn gaming into a political tool.

This isn't new: Call of Duty has been pushing the virtues of US foreign policy and military hegemony since about 2008 - they even have (or had) a partnership with the US military. No one bats an eye. Ever noticed how many American-produced games feature American military figures waging war against alien invaders. Ever stopped to wonder how few games feature any representations (never mind positive representations) of socialist, communist or pacifist ideologies? Ever struck you as weird that - even in fantasy universes - that the good guys always hail from traditional western political systems like monarchy or democracy and the bad guys from not-so-western ones? Where's all my communist heroes in games? Why is this industry being so political and pushing their agenda about western ideologies?

Games have always been heavily political, the only difference is that the latest wave of activists are pushing universalist messages about inclusivity and empathy instead of the more tried and true ones about western military supremacy.

 

[Zeroing]

Sounds like you lack the arguments to back your claims. Don't worry, you were not the first.
Lately a lot of people have a hard time constructing ideas on their own, or simply don't have the calm to engage with an opposing idea without getting irritated.

What I'm trying to do here is to show how flimsy some arguments are. Thank you for your help.

Or maybe you are trying to start a stupid discussion. Anyway....

 

[The_Mike]

Square Enix isn't western.

That explains everything. Didn't know it was Square Enix.

 

[PeteBull]

Or maybe you are trying to start a stupid discussion. Anyway....

Post that with female looking like a bodybuildier gif, why suddenly post women that looks like a woman? Wasnt it ok/preferable for wokeism to treat female hulks just as they are peak females?
This discussion was very needed and valid, otherwise it wouldnt reach so many pages here, tons of threads die with only having 1-2pages, not this one tho.

 

[Zeroing]

Post that with female looking like a bodybuildier gif, why suddenly post women that looks like a woman? Wasnt it ok/preferable for wokeism to treat female hulks just as they are peak females?
This discussion was very needed and valid, otherwise it wouldnt reach so many pages here, tons of threads die with only having 1-2pages, not this one tho.

You guys really need to check all my posts in this thread before replying.

 

[Faithless83]

On point one, this is true, though there are plenty of women out there who do all these things without appealing to traditional notions of feminine appearance behaviour - I don't see an issue with having protagonists like that in games. That said, there aren't actually many - even now - who are like that, Abby from The Last of Us Part II is maybe the best example I can think of someone with more overtly masculine energy, but most others maintain a traditional western notion of feminine appearance and behaviour.

I would love to break this down to you on several examples but I'll provide one:

Nico

MAINFileGalleryQuotes Nicoletta Goldstein,[7] better known as Nico, is an expert craftswoman and a supporting character in Devil May Cry 5. She is an associate of Nero's branch of the Devil May Cry business as well as the mind behind the various cybernetic prosthetics he wields to hunt demons...

devilmaycry.fandom.com

You have your masculine energy in a still very believable female character. Actually we also have Trish and Lady as both great examples of fierce females that are still females.
Japanese game doing it right again, kinda of a broken record at this point, I know.

One the second point, I also agree, though it's not nearly as pronounced. Take a look at two of the male leads from one of the biggest selling games of all time: GTAV. Michael and Trevor are ugly, unattractive, middle-aged men - one balding and one with serious dad bod. They haven't an ounce of charisma between them.

Both are very relatable to a LOT of people and even though they are not charismatic, they outshine Franklin as a lot more interesting and memorable out of many GTA protagonists.
They have believable issues and fit perfectly in their roles/in the story that the game is trying to tell.

When we see men like that in games, we think nothing of it, but when we see a woman like Selene from Returnal (who's not nearly so objectionable: her only real crimes are being over forty and exploring an alien planet without make-up on), you get a lot of people taking issue with it. What's the difference? Why is it okay for male protagonists to be older, scruffier and out of shape, but not for women?

She runs and jumps the entire game like she's twenty, it's hardly fitting with the gameplay. As someone that loves most of Housemarque games (double dipping Nex Machina, Super Stardust and Resogun), please provide me an answer to this:
I assume that you've played the game, was there any context to why she was a forty years old woman in a space suit, or was it just "because we can"?
Is there any reason on the story that she had to be a forty year old woman? Because gameplay wise clearly there isn't.

Back in the PS3/X360 we had a lot of muscle-bound, square-jawed marine heroes and I'll be honest, I got utterly bored with lame, edge-lord machismo. It wasn't just that I didn't relate to them, it's just that they were all the same. Maybe I get bored easily, but I like variation - I don't want to sit down and play the same game over and over, I want different stuff, and that goes as much for female characters as the male.

What did you expect? They were marines.

 

[Faithless83]

Or maybe you are trying to start a stupid discussion. Anyway....

You trying to attack me and not my argument only reinforces my point.

If you have nothing to add to the "stupid discussion", why do you keep posting then? Legit question.

 

[BbMajor7th]

I would love to break this down to you on several examples but I'll provide one:

Nico

MAINFileGalleryQuotes Nicoletta Goldstein,[7] better known as Nico, is an expert craftswoman and a supporting character in Devil May Cry 5. She is an associate of Nero's branch of the Devil May Cry business as well as the mind behind the various cybernetic prosthetics he wields to hunt demons...

devilmaycry.fandom.com

You have your masculine energy in a still very believable female character. Actually we also have Trish and Lady as both great examples of fierce females that are still females.
Japanese game doing it right again, kinda of a broken record at this point, I know.

Why do they have to though? Why is it right that they be both fierce and traditionally feminine? Why is that better?

Both are very relatable to a LOT of people and even though they are not charismatic, they outshine Franklin as a lot more interesting and memorable out of many GTA protagonists.
They have believable issues and fit perfectly in their roles/in the story that the game is trying to tell.

And you don't think the other games can't do that too? That other types of protagonists can do that ? is it not possible that in the same way that a lot of people can relate to Michael and Trevor despite them not exactly being Mr Universe might apply equally to female characters. Who might not win any beauty pageants but are who are relatable and memorable to a lot of people.

She runs and jumps the entire game like she's twenty, it's hardly fitting with the gameplay. As someone that loves most of Housemarque games (double dipping Nex Machina, Super Stardust and Resogun), please provide me an answer to this:
I assume that you've played the game, was there any context to why she was a forty years old woman in a space suit, or was it just "because we can"?
Is there any reason on the story that she had to be a forty year old woman? Because gameplay wise clearly there isn't.

She's clearly in good shape and it's not like she's in her seventies; she's younger than - say - Joel from The Last of Us and we never question how he's able to heal gunshot wounds with an old rag and a bottle of whisky (video game logic!). The reason for Selene being slightly older is that the game is a story about generational trauma; the relationship between her and her own mother (Theia, who you'll see in the final ending) and her and her brother/son Helios (depending on how you interpret certain events). It's a hard one to say exactly, because the story is deliberately fragmented, but even if it wasn't and they created an older protagonist just 'because they can' - because they felt like doing something different - seems like an okay reason to me. I mean, they also made a AAA bullet-hell roguelike that shipped without a proper save function (which also turned off a lot of players), so it's not like they were out to make something generic.

 

[SSfox]

Nariko was so great character design btw, the game itself was just fine, like The Order1886 of PS3, good ok game, lacking gameplay wise and lengthy but with awesome art design and character design, with big potential with a sequel, even tho both games never had a sequel tho.

 

[Mister Wolf]

That explains everything. Didn't know it was Square Enix.

Square Enix still understands that men(the majority of console/PC gamers) like looking at attractive women and aren't going to waste their money trying to prove otherwise.

 

[Faithless83]

Why do they have to though? Why is it right that they be both fierce and traditionally feminine? Why is that better?

Better than writing a male character and have a female dub. DMC5 has a balanced cast with different personality traits that are conflicting at times and they make it work. It adds to the story.
Why do you think it would add up so much to the experience if they look different just for the sake of it?
"Because diversity" is really a good enough argument?

And you don't think the other games can't do that too? That other types of protagonists can do that ? is it not possible that in the same way that a lot of people can relate to Michael and Trevor despite them not exactly being Mr Universe might apply equally to female characters. Who might not win any beauty pageants but are who are relatable and memorable to a lot of people.

No one here said that they can't do that. What we are pointing out is that is the only thing they are doing currently, since there are male protagonists and females that acts like a male, a lot of times not even looking like a woman.

She's clearly in good shape and it's not like she's in her seventies; she's younger than - say - Joel from The Last of Us and we never question how he's able to heal gunshot wounds with an old rag and a bottle of whisky (video game logic!).

Is Joel running and jumping platforms? The dude hardly makes a jump without making noises. He is old and the gameplay reflects it. Not the same is happening with Returnal.

The reason for Selene being slightly older is that the game is a story about generational trauma; the relationship between her and her own mother (Theia, who you'll see in the final ending) and her and her brother/son Helios (depending on how you interpret certain events). It's a hard one to say exactly, because the story is deliberately fragmented, but even if it wasn't and they created an older protagonist just 'because they can' - because they felt like doing something different - seems like an okay reason to me. I mean, they also made a AAA bullet-hell roguelike that shipped without a proper save function (which also turned off a lot of players), so it's not like they were out to make something generic.

Shit, is this your long version of "no, there is no reason for her to be forty"? Glad I've skipped that one then.
Yeah, I'm just voting with my wallet on a illogical choice they made, to appease to the agenda pushing reviewers.

 

[lachesis]

This thread actually reminds me the work of Shiro Kotobuki.
You guys may remember him from the chracter design/ illustrations of "Rumble Roses".. you know the Konami's women's wrestling game during PS3/360 era.



He drew/painted his illustrations with his mouth, after losing his mobility from neck down from a motorcycle accident.
His doctor suggested painting as part of his rehabilitation, and he started drawing female body from Playboy magazine, which led him to his career as an illustrator.
And I wonder what went thru his mind when he drew his illustrations. When I used to paint, a myriad of thoughts passed thru my head in each stroke.
For him, it must been so much of different types of conflict, sadness, longing, hope, pleasure, lust.... and knowing that actually makes me look at his works in a whole different way.

He passed away a few years back, but I respect his search for the feminine beauty & incredible skills... some amazing illustrations he made.

Some of his works

Nothing too NSFW, but some of them are slightly naughty & it will make some folks uncomfortable. Basically young face with certain body types and all, which probably was his ideal feminine image.
I'd say it's more of cute pics with varying degree of sensuality or humor inserted, nothing too different from a lot of manga/anime fan-service type illustrations... - certainly nothing that's as controversial/direct like the French artist Balthus.

Apparently Kotobuki's inspiration was none other than Renoir, the French impressionist. (I wonder why, always French?)

If this type of drawings are to be condemned and discouraged or even outlawed - then it enters the grey area of legality and thought crimes, human desires and all.
All these girl/boy band groups - aren't they just profiteering selling such images of themselves to the mass? Should they be banned to?

TBH, I have no answers here - but my question remains. Is it wrong to like beautiful feminine women over ugly masculine one?
And if the table is turned.... Is it wrong for women to like fit/toned handsome man vs skinny/fat ugly guy?

If having such innate desire is wrong, then it must be the original sin that one must bear and repent.... and I'm not sure if I can go that route.
A lot of liberal thinking follows atheism, but often times their reaction roots in the same logic as any religion, which frankly I find rather curious/ironic.

 

[BbMajor7th]

Better than writing a male character and have a female dub. DMC5 has a balanced cast with different personality traits that are conflicting at times and they make it work. It adds to the story.
Why do you think it would add up so much to the experience if they look different just for the sake of it?
"Because diversity" is really a good enough argument?

No one here said that they can't do that. What we are pointing out is that is the only thing they are doing currently, since there are male protagonists and females that acts like a male, a lot of times not even looking like a woman.


Is Joel running and jumping platforms? The dude hardly makes a jump without making noises. He is old and the gameplay reflects it. Not the same is happening with Returnal.

Shit, is this your long version of "no, there is no reason for her to be forty"? Glad I've skipped that one then.
Yeah, I'm just voting with my wallet on a illogical choice they made, to appease to the agenda pushing reviewers.

You chastised another poster above for not being willing to have an even handed debate - for not having the 'calm to engage with an opposing argument without getting irritated'. Seems like a lot of your responses here were pretty dismissive and not really engaging with the point.

Why do you think it would add up so much to the experience if they look different just for the sake of it?

I didn't make that argument. You argued that Japanese devs were doing it 'right' by holding to a traditionally feminine design. I asked why you thought that and you told me it was 'better than writing a male character and have a female dub'. So again, why do you think that? Why do you feel that way? I'm not making a value judgement here - I'm saying both can work and do work and there should be room for both; you seem to be saying that one always trumps the other and I'm trying to get a clear answer as to why we can't have both - there are plenty of women out there who do not conform to the typical ideals of femininity and beauty. I'm asking if you think there should be a place for those kinds of women or if they should be shut out?

Shit, is this your long version of "no, there is no reason for her to be forty"? Glad I've skipped that one then.

No, I gave some pretty clear examples, but admitted that it's hard to make a declarative statement when the narrative is clearly designed to be open-ended. One theory, for example, suggests that Selene may be an imagined projection of Theia - an alter ego of sorts, that amalgamates her personality and her dashed hopes and dreams with that of her unborn daughter Selene (who died in a car accident). There's pretty good grounding for the theory and it would account for her age, but the story isn't open and shut. You're demanding it be entirely substantiated in the story, but that's seems pointless. I remember someone asking Yoko Taro why his female characters looked like they did. He said 'I like pretty girls'. I respect that answer. It's his thing, he's doing it his way, but you can't respect one person for doing that 'just because' but criticise another for taking the same stance.

Creating an older female character could have been a simple preference, or it could be a more deliberate act of subversion. Both are fine by me and the latter is legitimate and time-honoured approach in art: a push back against one type of portrayal with something deliberately different: it's how we end up with films like Watchmen or TV shows like The Boys.

I don't think your claim that the only type of female protagonists western developers are creating right now are ones that are overtly masculine. I gave one example above, but if you're arguing this is now the uniform in western dev, you're gonna need to back it up. Selene from Returnal being slightly older and not turned out like idol girl isn't masculine, it's just her not wearing make and being over forty.

I'm more than happy to have the discussion, but let's be open handed here and not just ignore each other's arguments - otherwise it's not gonna go anywhere.

 

[Fess]

This thread actually reminds me the work of Shiro Kotobuki.
You guys may remember him from the chracter design/ illustrations of "Rumble Roses".. you know the Konami's women's wrestling game during PS3/360 era.



He drew/painted his illustrations with his mouth, after losing his mobility from neck down from a motorcycle accident.
His doctor suggested painting as part of his rehabilitation, and he started drawing female body from Playboy magazine, which led him to his career as an illustrator.
And I wonder what went thru his mind when he drew his illustrations. When I used to paint, a myriad of thoughts passed thru my head in each stroke.
For him, it must been so much of different types of conflict, sadness, longing, hope, pleasure, lust.... and knowing that actually makes me look at his works in a whole different way.

He passed away a few years back, but I respect his search for the feminine beauty & incredible skills... some amazing illustrations he made.

Some of his works

Nothing too NSFW, but some of them are slightly naughty & it will make some folks uncomfortable. Basically young face with certain body types and all, which probably was his ideal feminine image.
I'd say it's more of cute pics with varying degree of sensuality or humor inserted, nothing too different from a lot of manga/anime fan-service type illustrations... - certainly nothing that's as controversial/direct like the French artist Balthus.

Apparently Kotobuki's inspiration was none other than Renoir, the French impressionist. (I wonder why, always French?)

If this type of drawings are to be condemned and discouraged or even outlawed - then it enters the grey area of legality and thought crimes, human desires and all.
All these girl/boy band groups - aren't they just profiteering selling such images of themselves to the mass? Should they be banned to?

TBH, I have no answers here - but my question remains. Is it wrong to like beautiful feminine women over ugly masculine one?
And if the table is turned.... Is it wrong for women to like fit/toned handsome man vs skinny/fat ugly guy?

If having such innate desire is wrong, then it must be the original sin that one must bear and repent.... and I'm not sure if I can go that route.
A lot of liberal thinking follows atheism, but often times their reaction roots in the same logic as any religion, which frankly I find rather curious/ironic.

I never knew this, wow is the only thing I can say, would've been amazing even if he used his hands. I draw too and the female form is quite possibly the most beautiful thing on this planet, once you start studying everything in detail you might very well end up religious. I honestly don't understand what women even see in us men, I should ask my wife but I'm afraid she would divorce me if she start thinking about it.
And no, it's definitely not wrong to like feminine women, it's normal and don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise. Just keep on enjoying what you were born to enjoy!

 

[Faithless83]

You chastised another poster above for not being willing to have an even handed debate - for not having the 'calm to engage with an opposing argument without getting irritated'. Seems like a lot of your responses here were pretty dismissive and not really engaging with the point.

I did reply and explained why I think that. I can't see how you are linking my responses as "pretty dismissive and not really engaging with the point".

Why do you think it would add up so much to the experience if they look different just for the sake of it?

I didn't make that argument. You argued that Japanese devs were doing it 'right' by holding to a traditionally feminine design. I asked why you thought that and you told me it was 'better than writing a male character and have a female dub'. So again, why do you think that? Why do you feel that way? I'm not making a value judgement here - I'm saying both can work and do work and there should be room for both; you seem to be saying that one always trumps the other and I'm trying to get a clear answer as to why we can't have both - there are plenty of women out there who do not conform to the typical ideals of femininity and beauty. I'm asking if you think there should be a place for those kinds of women or if they should be shut out?

Looks like we have reached the point of me having to explain what I said and quote myself because your are cherry picking my replies and assuming what I said.
This is what I said:
DMC5 has a balanced cast with different personality traits that are conflicting at times and they make it work. It adds to the story." See, this is me pointing out that a woman can have male traits and still be feminine. Femininity shouldn't be shamed.
They also have different body types and varied features to be recognized at a glance, without looking like a dude.
Looking like Abby is not mandatory in a female with male traits, that's it.

I'm not making a value judgement here - I'm saying both can work and do work and there should be room for both; you seem to be saying that one always trumps the other and I'm trying to get a clear answer as to why we can't have both

And here again:
"No one here said that they can't do that. What we are pointing out is that is the only thing they are doing currently, since there are male protagonists and females that acts like a male, a lot of times not even looking like a woman."

So, I didn't said that there is no room for both, I clearly stated my problem with the agenda, period.

Shit, is this your long version of "no, there is no reason for her to be forty"? Glad I've skipped that one then.

No, I gave some pretty clear examples, but admitted that it's hard to make a declarative statement when the narrative is clearly designed to be open-ended. One theory, for example, suggests that Selene may be an imagined projection of Theia - an alter ego of sorts, that amalgamates her personality and her dashed hopes and dreams with that of her unborn daughter Selene (who died in a car accident). There's pretty good grounding for the theory and it would account for her age, but the story isn't open and shut. You're demanding it be entirely substantiated in the story, but that's seems pointless. I remember someone asking why Yoko Taro why also of his female characters looked like they did. He said 'I like pretty girls'. I respect that answer. It's his thing, he's doing it his way, but you can't respect one person for doing that 'just because' but criticise another for taking the stance.

Again, he was very criticized by his designs, yet somehow people are surprised when people criticize the same thing being done by "the other party".

Your second explanation makes much more sense then the first one, but still, "a theory pointing something out" is very inconclusive. Gameplay wise it makes zero sense.
And please don't give me "it's a videogame" kind of reply, of course it is... but if it's aiming to be a narrative dense story, at least put an explanation on why she's older. Absolutely nothing is preventing the devs from doing it.
It's a sci-fi setting, she could have gone under a body reconstruction explaining her physical capabilities, the suit, something makes her age faster, there are a shitton of options to explain it, sci-fi allows to some bonkers shit.
13 Sentinels is an amazing example of it.

Was there any explanation other than "it's an open ended story"? If there isn't, and it's a story dense game, it's hard to see it as anything other than "the agenda strikes again".

Creating an older female character could have been a simple preference, or it could be a more deliberate act of subversion. Both are fine by me and the latter is legitimate and time-honoured approach in art: a push back against one type of portrayal with something deliberately different: it's how we end up with films like Watchmen or TV shows like The Boys.

You're confusing doing something different than the norm, with putting a forty year old woman on a run and gun game, jumping back and forth. Likely (still waiting for your answer) without any explanation other than "hey, it's open ended story, imagine it yourself".

I don't think your claim that the only type of female protagonists western developers are creating right now are ones that are overtly masculine. I gave one example above, but if you're arguing this is now the uniform in western dev, you're gonna need to back it up. Selene from Returnal being slightly older and not turned out like idol girl isn't masculine, it's just her not wearing make and being over forty.

You have provided one example, if we consider her feminine, that is still up for debate based on what you said. Since you can say that my phrase stated "only doing that" let me apologize and say the overwhelming majority of the western devs are doing masculinezed women.
Can we agree on this?

I'm more than happy to have the discussion, but let's be open handed here and not just ignore each other's arguments - otherwise it's not gonna go anywhere.

Hey I'm the one having to correct your interpretation of what I said. See how I never assumed or put words on your posts (or anybody else for that matter)?
Yet I'm the one accused of being "dismissive and not really engaging with the point".

You're sounding A LOT like Dragon_Rocks .
It was a joyous discussion, but I'm truly not a fan of having to correct people on what I said, when I'm trying hard to be direct in my posts.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

.

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

Wow a western company actually using a decent actor to make a pretty female character.

Now I've seen everything.

Square Enix is a Japanese company.

 

[Physiocrat]

Make an attractive female character then in passing hint she could be a guy. Job done.

 

[PeteBull]

Make an attractive female character then in passing hint she could be a guy. Job done.

I wouldnt mind such a stuff at all, i mean Pamela in her prime, even if she identifies as an alien spaceship , wont stop being one if not the hottest woman on the planet

 

[Cyberpunkd]

ITT people try to scientifically prove the positives of T&A.

 

[Duchess]

Emily Pope from Control:

Real life actress (absolute qt 3.14):

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Wow a western company actually using a decent actor to make a pretty female character.

Now I've seen everything.

I haven't really been keeping up, but isn't this a Japanese developed game and they have Western writers? I'm thinking the Japanese developers had more to do with the design of the model's face than the Western side, but I could be totally wrong. If her model and modeling was created by the West, then yeah that really is something.

 

[Rickyiez]

One the second point, I also agree, though it's not nearly as pronounced. Take a look at two of the male leads from one of the biggest selling games of all time: GTAV. Michael and Trevor are ugly, unattractive, middle-aged men - one balding and one with serious dad bod. They haven't an ounce of charisma between them. When we see men like that in games, we think nothing of it, but when we see a woman like Selene from Returnal (who's not nearly so objectionable: her only real crimes are being over forty and exploring an alien planet without make-up on), you get a lot of people taking issue with it. What's the difference? Why is it okay for male protagonists to be older, scruffier and out of shape, but not for women?

Wrong comparison . You're talking about aged characters that could fights aliens , and this is the male counterpart that is believable in doing so .

Even then , Marcus Fenix did not perform all the acrobatic and cardio feats like Selene for the age .

If a movie can portray such a character perfectly , why not a game ?

Is it so hard to make Selene looks badass and actually believable as someone who can fight in space ? Older woman is fine , but she doesn't need to be uglified from her original mocap actress .

 

[Kokoro2020]

I do notice a lot of games reduce the sexuality of female characters lately. A good example is Mortal Kombat 11, having them more covered up than ever before. Even when they got the "klassic costumes," they were turned into granny panties, even the MK3 ones, which were not that way originally. Only Sindel really retains the sexiness.

Even DOA6 attempted to do something similar at first, but thankfully changed their tune, for the most part.

 

[Faithless83]

I do notice a lot of games reduce the sexuality of female characters lately. A good example is Mortal Kombat 11, having them more covered up than ever before. Even when they got the "klassic costumes," they were turned into granny panties, even the MK3 ones, which were not that way originally. Only Sindel really retains the sexiness.

Even DOA6 attempted to do something similar at first, but thankfully changed their tune, for the most part.

MK is developed in the west, so it's nothing new.
The japanese devs caving in, means that the publishers are actually scared of the backlash.
Understandable due to how big of a market the west is, what these guys are failing to understand is that games like Yakuza, something so japanese at heart, can and did strive in the west without "mostly" no compromises to fit in.
It has a lot of weird shit and that's exactly what it makes it appealing, it is a game first and foremost and it isn't afraid to celebrate that.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Emily Pope from Control:

Real life actress (absolute qt 3.14):

The game makes her look 20 years older like a grandma.

 

[Kokoro2020]

MK is developed in the west, so it's nothing new.
The japanese devs caving in, means that the publishers are actually scared of the backlash.
Understandable due to how big of a market the west is, what these guys are failing to understand is that games like Yakuza, something so japanese at heart, can and did strive in the west without "mostly" no compromises to fit in.
It has a lot of weird shit and that's exactly what it makes it appealing, it is a game first and foremost and it isn't afraid to celebrate that.

Yeah, the West is quite prudish these days.

They already started heading this direction with MKX, but in MK11, they toned down the sexiness even more so. MK9 was the last one that really had the sexiness in there. Just imagine the MK9 outfits with the current graphics. Pure beauty right there.

 

[ParaSeoul]

Emily Pope from Control:

Real life actress (absolute qt 3.14):

Ones like this probably have to do more with the fact that Controls NPC models are all terrible,low poly looking things.

 

[GeekyDad]

This thread...

 

[Fess]

ITT people try to scientifically prove the positives of T&A.

Maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with other people trying to say people who like that are immature imbecills?

It is a fact though, scientists has been explaining the reason men prefer breasts and wide hips since way back when Darwin was scribbling down stuff about apes. The evolutionary theory is in short that breasts signal to our monkey man brain that a female is mature enough and wide hips signal that they can handle child birth.

Then again. Games aren't real so people should just enjoy what they enjoy and don't worry about it. Personally I think it's weird that people can defend gaming violence and gore like there is no tomorrow but want to ban beauty and sexiness.

 

[luij81]

Emily Pope from Control:

Real life actress (absolute qt 3.14):

The game makes her look 20 years older like a grandma.

But sure, yeah... Remedy is trying to """""uglify""""" and make WOMEN older. This has nothing to do with the fact that it's a dark game, set in an opressive environment. Sure... Could it be related to the roles the actors played? Of course not... It's nonsense, right? Who would even think about that?

And... Emily looks like a "grandma" in Control??? She looks like a woman in her thirties, for crying out loud. WTH? This is insane!

A few messages ago, one guy said that even a half blind person could see that Jesse Faden looked half man in some images. HALF MAN!

Well, I'd say being half blind wouldn't be an excuse to say such an atrocity. It sounds to me like something a half brained person would say, that's what it is.

The nonsense in this thread is out of Control (pun intended).

 

[luij81]

Quick note in regards to the message above: I definetly do NOT agree that women in Control look uglier. A little bit older here and there, for the roles (just like men), MAYBE (20 years my a...). I had to "play their game" to make my point.

 

[Vick]

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