MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Ito is also behind the whole scripted multi-phase GILGAMESH battles.
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Will Hiroyuki Ito (FF6/FF9/FF12 game director) return to direct FFXV?
- Thread starter Ghost_Protocol
- Start date
Werewolf Jones
Gold Member
I love VI and IX. I liked XII when playing it but the more I thought about it afterward the more I didn't care for it. Not a poorly made game by any means.
How recently did the Gooch say this by the by?
How recently did the Gooch say this by the by?
FF9's direction was pretty much all Ito. FF12 wasn't though. Not even close. Even after Matsuno left, the director duties were split between Ito and Minagawa. The scenario, world, art, etc were all established by Matsuno's vision from the start. Ito was very much in charge of the battle system and gameplay, like he was in many FF games, but I really don't consider FFXII as an example of his ability to lead and manage a full team. It's not like he was the producer either, not until the International Zodiac Edition. For that release, it was mostly Ito's desire to retune the gameplay, and it was handled by a really title team, without any additions to the scenario or assets.
January 2012, at BAFTA.
Ghost_Protocol
Member
Matsuno's gone
He left square to join level 5, and then he left level 5 in 2011 But, at least according to the wiki, he's working on a secret project for an unknown company....
APZonerunner
Member
It was The Last Story's press tour in the UK, when he spoke at BAFTA on his design for a mixture of public and press - so actually around a year ago almost exactly. He said it to a fan who asked during a signing session, and it got a round of applause.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Wada: *laughs*
It'd be interesting to see if unlucky 13 was the game to put FF in a permanent irreversible decline.
Perhaps the next Final Fantasy really does need to be final.
I dunno, if a miracle happens, I will be happy, but if FF dies in this condition and forces Square Enix to re-think their talent usage, I'd be happy for that, too.
Perhaps the next Final Fantasy really does need to be final.
I dunno, if a miracle happens, I will be happy, but if FF dies in this condition and forces Square Enix to re-think their talent usage, I'd be happy for that, too.
Paddington Bear
Member
Ha! Kagari... You already know the answer
My opinion is that Versus is XV and so... Ito for XVI
TheJollyCorner
Member
that's pretty specific, Aeana.
I constantly see Ito praised for "directing FFVI" around here, without equal or more credit going to Kitase.
Just look at this thread, for example: "OMG, Ito did FF6, 9, and 12?!?!?!"
Yeah... and Junya Nakano 'did' FFX's soundtrack.
You are the one who said he gets credit for story and characters.
I also think you're being pedantic, because people give other figures credit for "doing" games. To hear it told by others, Nomura made the entire KH series by himself, and Toriyama made FF13 all by himself, etc. That's just how people talk.
H_Prestige
Banned
So the real answer here is that we need Kitase back in the director's chair.
I think the biggest problem with the "Ito will save FF!!!" theory is that FF isn't in serious trouble because the leads are terrible people who cannot do anything good. The larger and more significant problem is that FF is in trouble because the expectations of what a FF game is in terms of spectacle and scope scaled very poorly with the rising technical requirements of modern technology. It became increasingly expensive and increasingly hard to create the sort of experience expected of a FF game, and this leads to more and more pressure on the leads who previously had less to worry about.
This is a problem which cannot be solved just by putting one person whose previous worked people liked in charge. Without enough experience handling and managing large development teams, it is extremely unrealistic to think that someone can step in and just fix things. If there are other people who are capable in team management and productivity-efficiency who can help in such a project, good design leads would be great. But without such people available, it would just be a waste.
Matsuno was and is still considered incredibly talented as a game designer and a writer. He led some of the most well liked Squaresoft games in the PS1 era. Yet when given the responsibility of FFXII, he fell apart too.
Toriyama worked on both FFX and FFX-2 which were well liked too. He managed to assemble mostly the same team for FFXIII. Yet it fell apart as well.
Nomura is still considered one of the most talented guys in S-E today, he managed to ship a ton of KH games. Yet Versus is in a total clusterfuck which fans make excuses for every day.
Tanaka was an extremely capable veteran in S-E, he was producer on the Seiken Densetsu games, Xenogears, Chrono Cross, and FFXI. FFXI was considered really well run and a huge surprise from S-E at the time. Yet with FFXIV he totally dropped the ball on it.
This is not about bad staff. This is about a systemic problem in their production and management. No matter how talented an individual is, games are not made by one person, especially not huge AAA games like flagship FF titles. They're made by hundreds of people, and therein lies the problem - S-E Japan seems unable to properly manage games which require hundreds of people to develop a title. They seemed to handle things pretty well up until a certain point, and then beyond that their management capability couldn't catch up with the manpower required to make the things they wanted.
Putting Ito in charge of a FF game isn't going to change any of this. Unless they fix those problems first, it will likely end up being another project which is announced as something extremely promising, and then gets delayed over and over only to under-deliver at the end.
This is a problem which cannot be solved just by putting one person whose previous worked people liked in charge. Without enough experience handling and managing large development teams, it is extremely unrealistic to think that someone can step in and just fix things. If there are other people who are capable in team management and productivity-efficiency who can help in such a project, good design leads would be great. But without such people available, it would just be a waste.
Matsuno was and is still considered incredibly talented as a game designer and a writer. He led some of the most well liked Squaresoft games in the PS1 era. Yet when given the responsibility of FFXII, he fell apart too.
Toriyama worked on both FFX and FFX-2 which were well liked too. He managed to assemble mostly the same team for FFXIII. Yet it fell apart as well.
Nomura is still considered one of the most talented guys in S-E today, he managed to ship a ton of KH games. Yet Versus is in a total clusterfuck which fans make excuses for every day.
Tanaka was an extremely capable veteran in S-E, he was producer on the Seiken Densetsu games, Xenogears, Chrono Cross, and FFXI. FFXI was considered really well run and a huge surprise from S-E at the time. Yet with FFXIV he totally dropped the ball on it.
This is not about bad staff. This is about a systemic problem in their production and management. No matter how talented an individual is, games are not made by one person, especially not huge AAA games like flagship FF titles. They're made by hundreds of people, and therein lies the problem - S-E Japan seems unable to properly manage games which require hundreds of people to develop a title. They seemed to handle things pretty well up until a certain point, and then beyond that their management capability couldn't catch up with the manpower required to make the things they wanted.
Putting Ito in charge of a FF game isn't going to change any of this. Unless they fix those problems first, it will likely end up being another project which is announced as something extremely promising, and then gets delayed over and over only to under-deliver at the end.
Ghost_Protocol
Member
Ito is a game director for FF6/FF9/FF12, and I said in my OP that he either directed or co-directed each one of them. The thread is focused on Ito because he's been MIA in the console space for the last several years despite having lead development efforts for the most critically acclaimed entries in the series. We're interested in what he's going to do next; no one is giving him undue praise, or slighting anyone else in the process.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Seeing as Ito was responsible for pretty much all of the best things to come from Square. No...I doubt he'll have any involvement with FFXV.
For those who want to know how much good Ito has done for the company
Yea he's pretty much the reason you use to love Square, his absence is the reason you tolerate Square.
For those who want to know how much good Ito has done for the company
Yea he's pretty much the reason you use to love Square, his absence is the reason you tolerate Square.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Oh good thread, those are my favorite FF games. Now I need to try and will it happen.
TheJollyCorner
Member
So you consider me being specific as 'narrow minded' or pointing out said specifics as trivial?
I apologize if I'm coming off that way.
Yeah, it's how people talk, but on a message forum we have the ability to add those specifics- both for constructive discussions and (unfortunately) sometimes arguments.
Ito's contributions to the series are undeniable, but, as I said with my first post, the savior status some fans have made him out to be is just strange to me. duckroll's viewpoint actually makes sense to me, but I also want to believe there's more to it than just deperation.
I'm just interested in why people feel he's the answer to a series' problem that goes far deeper than who is 'directing' the games.
edit: Ghost_Protocol, I think your thread is a good source of discussion, so please don't think I'm being an ass to you.
edit2: and duckroll just nailed what is wrong with management over the FF series in his last post up there. Nailed on the head.
At this point I would personally be far more encouraged just by having Final Fantasy XV announced as a title that is A.) built on a technology base designed around efficient development and B.) that Square Enix has hired a large number of line producers and development directors from companies like Capcom and Sega.
He won't be directing FFXV. It would be interesting to see him at the helm of another big budget project though. Just to see what he comes out with.
SE was unprepared for the current generation. Their internal processes, and way of management, really didn't help a productive transition. The effect of this poor planning is evident in how troubled their console development has been, and how certain impatient decisions have made. I think they'll do better with the coming generation though.
SE was unprepared for the current generation. Their internal processes, and way of management, really didn't help a productive transition. The effect of this poor planning is evident in how troubled their console development has been, and how certain impatient decisions have made. I think they'll do better with the coming generation though.
Great post.
Yeah, pretty much this.
fvng
Member
He wasnt the character designer he was the director.
So FF is doomed?
It's no wonder their handheld titles have been better produced. But I'm still waiting to see what comes out of Versus (sooner or later)...and how Nomura's going to handle an HD KH3...
-Pyromaniac-
Member
If Hino could crank out Ni No Kuni, Square can crank out a competent Final Fantasy game. Be creative.
TheJollyCorner
Member
I actually like this idea, but I wonder how systemic the design/creation of an FF game really is and if it would allow someone to just come into it for direction? Even though FFXII was Matsuno's first shot at directing a major FF, he was still well known by Sakaguchi and other high profiles in S-E. Ito, Kitase, Toriyama... all were groomed in the company by one way or another.
Nomura is getting his chance, but as we all know by now, it's taking a comical amount of time.
I've been saying for a while, but I'd like to see Yusuke Naora get his chance.
Unfortunately the Code Age debacle might have ruined any potential chance he ever had. :/
Some of his work on the project that would eventually be turned into FFX was fascinating, both plot-wise (thanks to Nojima) and design-wise.
Well, unfortunately for us, he will be making his return at some point. Maybe with a new female character for him to obsess over. Or maybe, just maybe, he'll be kept away for a couple of years. Dare to dream?! DO YOU DARE?!
Mama Robotnik
Member
I learned from this post. Excellent analysis.
Samurai_Heart
Member
Was every Final Fantasy game pretty much the forefront of graphics when each game came out?
If Square focused less on "CG" graphics they would have accomplished so much more, and maybe that competent FF game, IMHO. Right now I'm hoping Versus 13 becomes 15 and saves the series from what's it's become.
I agree to some extent, but I still think toriyama is mostly to be blamed for the backlash of XIII.
I can see the vision SE had for XIII, but it felt like toriyama sacrificed all of it just to create pointless melodramatic situations between the main characters.
The lore was thrown in the data log and Team Nora, Jihl, and Cid were basically thrown under the bus.
I love this thread becuase I had no idea that the link between FF6, 9 and 12 was Hiroyuki Ito... it's not something I ever bothered to research, all I knew is that they together, they are either my top 3 FFs or in VERY close contention for the top 3... depending on my mood. But FF6 is definitely #1 no matter how you slice it.
If he is involved with FF15 then I will have hope for the series once again.
If he is involved with FF15 then I will have hope for the series once again.
No, I don't think it's doomed. That would be way too pessimistic, and it would mean that somehow S-E is never going to be able to prop themselves back up or fix their production problems. But I also don't think there's some magic switch which they can flip and make an amazing game which turns public opinion around immediately.
I think that investing heavily in good tech for future generations in advance is a good step, if the Luminous engine can indeed do what they say it can, it would help make things easier when they have to jump to the next-gen, which is presumably really soon. I think that allowing someone like Naoki Yoshida who has never worked on any FF title before FFXIV, to attempt to save FFXIV because he believes he has what it takes, is also a good step to discovering more management talent within the company.
It's still a long road though, and I don't think S-E can really shake off the negativity from this generation until they clear the plate which they originally promised at the start of the generation. Versus is a huge elephant in the room, and until they address the status of that title and deal with it somehow, I don't think the core fans of the company will be willing to move on and judge their future output fairly.
I'm not saying Toriyama is not to be blamed for the backlash on FFXIII. He is the director, the buck stops with him. If the game had serious problems, he is responsible. But think about it this way - if S-E does not have problems with developing FF games on a regular schedule, would the backlash really be that big a deal? We used to have 2-3 year cycles for FF games, and they would each be different and unique, even if they weren't consistent. One poorly received FF game means little for a major brand on a regular schedule. But when you have one game every 5-6 years, and it turns out bad, that is a much more serious problem.
TheJollyCorner
Member
Toriyama just needs to have his leash pulled.
I mean, the guy has produced some really unique ideas in the past and has contributed positively to some major FF productions. His direction is actually pretty good when you look at it from a base level. The problem (at least with XIII) is in the script and pacing. Toriyama cannot seem to adapt when those two aspects get out of control.
What is one thing that many people credit FFX for doing brilliantly with its more linear design? Pacing.
What is one thing that many people criticized FFXIII for doing poorly with its more linear design? Pacing.
FFX's script was also a lot more tight and had a great balance between the emotional journey of the central characters, as well as the state of the world in the background. I think a lot of that can be credited to a veteran like Nojima.
FFXIII's script tried to do that as well, but wasn't nearly as nuanced and tried to pack in so much information that it just became messy. When you have to rely on the audience to do their own research in order to understand critical story/world details, you are doing something wrong.
Somehow Toriyama has a ton of control now and has been able to headline not one, but two sequels to probably the most critically disappointing FF in the series. How does this happen? Do I even blame Toriyama for that? Not necessarily.
LizardKing
Member
That's all well and good, but FF13 universe is oozing with Toriyama design philosophy. Things he out and out stated as his vision of what FF should be. Most of which the fans have disagreed with and why they find FF13 underwhelming.
slightconfuse
Banned
if its the man that made 9 and 12 then i believe
Megalosaro
Banned
The amount of love for Ito and 12 in this thread makes me happy.
They needed to do something whilst other issues are being addressed. Cheapest way to do it.
The next generation will act like somewhat of a reset when it comes to the franchise. So, whatever damage FFXIII did by essentially making the FF series irrelevant this generation, can be undone. If they do well with FFXV, the brand can be very strong again. It just means not showing up to the party after 2-3 years and instead, ideally, being there within the first year. Gotta be early and strong to build that momentum.
FF12 sucks. Well, maybe not sucks, but it...kind of sucks.
Vitor Navarrete
Neo Member
Ito and Tabata are directing FF XV together.
BELIEVE!
I'm convinced that he's the one doing FFXV, honestly. Since I expect that SE wants to release FFXV in a timely fashion, I assume that it's already entered development. Taking into account that Toriyama is a) busy with Lightning Returns and b) his games have a bad reputation among both fans and critics, I doubt that he'll be the one in charge of FFXV.
And who else but Ito should be the one in charge? He being in charge of FFXV would explain why he wasn't deeply involved in any games in quite some time and if they aren't making Versus the next mainline game, Nomura's out too.
Also, Ito's no IGA. He's too talented and "famous" as that they would make him the company's janitor. Well, except if he doesn't want to make big projects anymore ... which might be the case, but I hope not.
For what it's worth, according to Wiki he's only been credited for Guardian Cross' "original concept", so it doesn't sound like he was actually all that deep involved in the production of the game. However, if Wiki is to be believed on that one.
And who else but Ito should be the one in charge? He being in charge of FFXV would explain why he wasn't deeply involved in any games in quite some time and if they aren't making Versus the next mainline game, Nomura's out too.
Also, Ito's no IGA. He's too talented and "famous" as that they would make him the company's janitor. Well, except if he doesn't want to make big projects anymore ... which might be the case, but I hope not.
For what it's worth, according to Wiki he's only been credited for Guardian Cross' "original concept", so it doesn't sound like he was actually all that deep involved in the production of the game. However, if Wiki is to be believed on that one.
Tawney Bomb
Member
He had involvement in most Square games I like. Meaning he will never direct XV.
TheJollyCorner
Member
I do believe this.