Support NeoGAF

[Wario64]

It looks like some of the launch games are already filling up quite a bit of disc space...

Are we gonna be seeing multi-disc games for almost all RPGs for X360, just like the PSOne?

Here's a list of current games right now with their estimated game size...

Amped 3 ~ 7 GB
Call of Duty 2 ~ 7 GB
Condemned ~ 7 GB
Gun ~ 7 GB
Kameo ~ 7 GB
Perfect Dark Zero ~ 6.5 GB
Project Gotham Racing 3 ~ 7 GB
Quake 4 ~ 5 GB
Ridge Racer 6 ~ 5 GB


It seems pretty early to be using nearly the entire disc already, don't you guys think?

 

[Striek]

Probably as common as PSOne.

 

[Reilly]

how much does Oblivion take up?

 

[Jan]

Probably , but I don´t think that this is really a thing to be worried .

I really enjoyed games like FFVII or Shenmue 2 . Some Gc games are two disc . Whats the matter? Get up of the seat one time every twenty hours? Terrific!

 

[Mrbob]

Wow, the entire discs are being filled up in most of the launch titles? Not good.

But this is a sign we will be seeing many multi disc titles for the 360.

 

[golem]

i am honestly more worried about devs trying to squeeze all their content down to one dvd if their publisher does not wish to go multidisc..

 

[Jan]

Sure they will find bettr ways of data compression , but is unavoidable that most of the games will be 2 dvds or even more . But I really don´t care about that.

 

[malek4980]

Devs already do a lot of compression as it is.

 

[3rdman]

I could be wrong (no techie here), but these are all 1st gen. titles and inherently wasteful. Xenon is designed with procedural synthesis in mind...surely no launch titles are using that technique...Would it matter as far as disk space is concerned? Maybe...at least where large worlds are concerned.

 

[Ryudo]

Double sided dual layered a possibility ?

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Double sided dual layered a possibility ?

I doubt that big time.

 

[Reilly]

Double sided dual layered a possibility ?

Imagine the scratching possiblities.

 

[Striek]

Xenon is designed with procedural synthesis in mind...

Ehh no. Procedural synthesis won't be having a big effect (if any) in the coming generation. Traditional art whoops procedural synthesis in quality and obviously demands far less resources.

 

[jamesinclair]

I think its just lazy devs.

There arent that many 2 disk GC games. And each disk was only 1.5GB. If devs try, they can squeeze.

Its like the whole N64-PSone thing. Why could devs squeeze games onto 32MB on the N64 and then use all 700MB on the PSone?

Answer: When they have so much space, they dont give a damn about saving it.

 

[Striek]

There arent that many 2 disk GC games. And each disk was only 1.5GB. If devs try, they can squeeze.

Quality suffered when devs squeezed titles onto one GOD disc.

 

[Liquid]

Gun ~ 7 GB
Project Gotham Racing 3 ~ 7 GB



It seems pretty early to be using nearly the entire disc already, don't you guys think?

you really think gun uses the same amount of space as pgr3? come on. thats sloppy work. has to be. and if a game like pgr3 can be done in 7 gigs at launch then theres definate hope.

 

[trmas]

MS should have gone with a next-generation drive. This will cost them BIG TIME with games like GTA and the like. IF FFXIII ever hits the 360 (doubtful), it will probably be at least 3-4 disks like the PSX days.

 

[Eiji]

Like disc based games in the past for the Dreamcast, PS2, Gamecube etc, maybe 360 games use dummy files to "pad" data for faster load times.

 

[Raven.]

It looks like some of the launch games are already filling up quite a bit of disc space...

Are we gonna be seeing multi-disc games for almost all RPGs for X360, just like the PSOne?

Here's a list of current games right now with their estimated game size...

Amped 3 ~ 7 GB
Call of Duty 2 ~ 7 GB
Condemned ~ 7 GB
Gun ~ 7 GB
Kameo ~ 7 GB
Perfect Dark Zero ~ 6.5 GB
Project Gotham Racing 3 ~ 7 GB
Quake 4 ~ 5 GB
Ridge Racer 6 ~ 5 GB


It seems pretty early to be using nearly the entire disc already, don't you guys think?

Wow many taking the entire disc, and these are rushed launch games that ain't taping the h/w. What of sequels, sequels that should be offering far more content?

you really think gun uses the same amount of space as pgr3? come on. thats sloppy work. has to be. and if a game like pgr3 can be done in 7 gigs at launch then theres definate hope.

Redundancy to ease loading.

 

[Shawn128]

I really don't see the big deal over multi disc games. So you have to get up to put in the disc for the next part of the game. OH NOES!

 

[Suikoguy]

Like disc based games in the past for the Dreamcast, PS2, Gamecube etc, maybe 360 games use dummy files to "pad" data for faster load times.

You should be able to, in that case, look at the size compressed. Pad files compress VERY well

 

[Wario64]

You should be able to, in that case, look at the size compressed. Pad files compress VERY well

Actually, the numbers I used are compressed sizes. So the actual size may even be larger...

 

[Mallrat83]

Probably , but I don´t think that this is really a thing to be worried .

I really enjoyed games like FFVII or Shenmue 2 . Some Gc games are two disc . Whats the matter? Get up of the seat one time every twenty hours? Terrific!

QFT

 

[Mooreberg]

Will companies be allowed to use both sides or is it a standard requirement to have a label with the system's logo on one side?

 

[renvi]

DVD-9 Discs have memory of 9 GB

 

[Striek]

Will companies be allowed to use both sides or is it a standard requirement to have a label with the system's logo on one side?

Of a DVD disc? X360 doesn't support DVD-18.
Even if it did, it doesn't get rid of the problems inherent in multi-disc games.

DVD-9 Discs have memory of 9 GB

X360 titles can only utilise 7GB due to copy protection schemes and other such reasons.

 

[Marathon]

I really don't see the big deal over multi disc games. So you have to get up to put in the disc for the next part of the game. OH NOES!

Publishers and developers care.

Every multi-disc title on the 360 will result in Number of Extra Discs * Cost To Include Discs * Number Of Copies Sold dollars taken straight out of profit.

 

[Nerevar]

DVD-9 Discs have memory of 9 GB

MS is reserving ~2 GB of space to use for copy protection and disc verification, meaning devs tap out at around 7 GB (7.4 GB IIRC)

 

[Liquid]

Publishers and developers care.

Every multi-disc title on the 360 will result in Number of Extra Discs * Cost To Include Discs * Number Of Copies Sold dollars taken straight out of profit.

what does a DVD cost? .03 cents? i'm sure MS will have some concession for multidisc games considering its their fault for using the format. and isnt there something higher than dvd9?

 

[Striek]

what does a DVD cost? .03 cents? i'm sure MS will have some concession for multidisc games considering its their fault for using the format. and isnt there something higher than dvd9?

Cost for packaging and pressing of multiple-DVDs adds up.
DVD-9 is the largest format the X360 will support.

Theres no denying this is an aspect that isn't sitting comfortable with both developers and publishers, seeing as its being commentated on by quite a few.

 

[Willy Wanka]

Ehh no. Procedural synthesis won't be having a big effect (if any) in the coming generation. Traditional art whoops procedural synthesis in quality and obviously demands far less resources.

Doesn't Oblivion use it to create those huge forests? I don't know for sure, I just remember reading that somewhere.

 

[Striek]

Doesn't Oblivion use it to create those huge forests? I don't know for sure, I just remember reading that somewhere.

It uses SpeedTree I believe. Which does use procedural synthesis, yes, but not exactly what first jumps to mind or an example of hardware tailored for it. Its not used as a disc-space saving method, but as a way to have natural looking trees. Trees and some other objects don't take alot of processing power to create, but they don't take a lot of space to store either.
Procedural synthesis for textures on the other hand, take a hell of a lot of processing power.
A game like .kkrieger is the perfect example of procedural synthesis, which is just 99kb, creates synthesised textures but takes a long time to load.

http://theprodukkt.com/kkrieger.html

 

[Lindsay]

MS is reserving ~2 GB of space to use for copy protection and disc verification, meaning devs tap out at around 7 GB (7.4 GB IIRC)

Is there any way MS could or would let free some of that space again? If devs can squeeze then can't they eventually chip away at the size of their protection files? Every little bit counts~

 

[Kleegamefan]

It looks like some of the launch games are already filling up quite a bit of disc space...

Are we gonna be seeing multi-disc games for almost all RPGs for X360, just like the PSOne?

Here's a list of current games right now with their estimated game size...

Amped 3 ~ 7 GB
Call of Duty 2 ~ 7 GB
Condemned ~ 7 GB
Gun ~ 7 GB
Kameo ~ 7 GB
Perfect Dark Zero ~ 6.5 GB
Project Gotham Racing 3 ~ 7 GB
Quake 4 ~ 5 GB
Ridge Racer 6 ~ 5 GB


It seems pretty early to be using nearly the entire disc already, don't you guys think?

Hey wario....where did you get this (very interesting) information?


Links??

Is there any way MS could or would let free some of that space again? If devs can squeeze then can't they eventually chip away at the size of their protection files? Every little bit counts~

From what I understand, it goes like this:

X360 DVD media=8.5GB

7GBs for game data, 1.5GB for "security reasons"

http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0914/kaigai03l.gif


They are sacrificing space on the DVD to make it less likely to be hacked....

 

[Striek]

Hey wario....where did you get this (very interesting) information?


Links??

Games have been released on the 'scene'.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Ah......

 

[Servizio]

I think Halo 2 was somewhere around 20 gbs just a few weeks before it went gold. They have those optimizer guys who can apparently trim a lot of fat. (insert missing ending joke here) I'm guessing there wasn't a lot of that for the launch titles?

 

[goodcow]

I think Halo 2 was somewhere around 20 gbs just a few weeks before it went gold. They have those optimizer guys who can apparently trim a lot of fat. (insert missing ending joke here) I'm guessing there wasn't a lot of that for the launch titles?

You can only compress so far, especially with HD content. HD sound takes a lot of space.

 

[Blaster1X]

I think Halo 2 was somewhere around 20 gbs just a few weeks before it went gold. They have those optimizer guys who can apparently trim a lot of fat.

Now that's what I call compression!

 

[Eiji]

You should be able to, in that case, look at the size compressed. Pad files compress VERY well

Not really. Some developers add junk data instead of dummy data like Nintendo and their GC games. Junk data does not compress well at all but provides the same function as dummy data.

 

[Liquid]

i still dont think its an issue. i mean again look at pgr3. NYC for example is HUGE and the world is always there. there are what 5 of those huge worlds on the disc. the texture detail is insane and the geometry is nuts. i dont think any dev will give us a world as big as all 5 pgr3 cities combined with that level of detail either. couldnt you have say only new york on the disc and up the texture detail even further yet still have space because the other 4 cities arnt on the disc?

 

[crunker99]

would have to be a game that doesnt have a free roaming environment
all the car games i think would be out

 

[FightyF]

You can only compress so far, especially with HD content. HD sound takes a lot of space.

HD Sound? I really don't think so.

Especially since the 360 has decompressors built into hardware that deal specifically with sound. Note, there is no actual sound card, but MS did include hardwware to do this decompression for audio. Sorry for the bad typing my computer's acting up and freezing while I'm typing.

 

[Kleegamefan]

i still dont think its an issue. i mean again look at pgr3. NYC for example is HUGE and the world is always there. there are what 5 of those huge worlds on the disc. the texture detail is insane and the geometry is nuts. i dont think any dev will give us a world as big as all 5 pgr3 cities combined with that level of detail either. couldnt you have say only new york on the disc and up the texture detail even further yet still have space because the other 4 cities arnt on the disc?

It wont be a big issue with "linear" games, of which there are sure to be many next gen....

However games with persistant data and large streaming worlds (PGR3 has neither) will be a bigger problem and in this catagory there are sure to be some gems next gen...not the least of which will be Grand Theft Auto 4...


Then again, GTA4 is probably in development for PLAYSTATION 3 anyway.....the game is probably a better fit for PS3 hardware and media, not to mention the biggest slice of GTA's fanbase have Sony platforms regardless......

Again, in the near term, this is no biggie, but towards the end of X360 life cycle, 7GBs will be more problematic than it is now, IMO....

I am still surprised so many games are hitting the 7GB ceiling of X360 media so soon, though.....

In the end, you cant blame MS because they really had no choice, though, since the HD-DVD format has been delayed to 2006 even in Japan :/

 

[Jerkface]

If the disc size for PGR3 is 7Gb it means the actual game is only 5Gb, so they would still have at least 1.5Gb to play with.

 

[gofreak]

HD Sound? I really don't think so.

Especially since the 360 has decompressors built into hardware that deal specifically with sound. Note, there is no actual sound card, but MS did include hardwware to do this decompression for audio. Sorry for the bad typing my computer's acting up and freezing while I'm typing.

I'd be interested in hearing about that, because I was under the impression that, increasingly at least, the 360's CPU would be engaged in decompression work.

As for multi-disc, I suppose it becomes more infeasible with certain types of game. Games with big big open worlds, but in particular such games that are also persistant and online.

 

[Willy Wanka]

It uses SpeedTree I believe. Which does use procedural synthesis, yes, but not exactly what first jumps to mind or an example of hardware tailored for it. Its not used as a disc-space saving method, but as a way to have natural looking trees. Trees and some other objects don't take alot of processing power to create, but they don't take a lot of space to store either.
Procedural synthesis for textures on the other hand, take a hell of a lot of processing power.
A game like .kkrieger is the perfect example of procedural synthesis, which is just 99kb, creates synthesised textures but takes a long time to load.

http://theprodukkt.com/kkrieger.html

Oh yeah I've played that .kkrieger demo, amazing. I think it's one of the demos that inspired Will Wright to work on Spore too.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

MS should have gone with a next-generation drive. This will cost them BIG TIME with games like GTA and the like. IF FFXIII ever hits the 360 (doubtful), it will probably be at least 3-4 disks like the PSX days.

Which next-generation drive would that be? HD-DVD? BluRay? Neither of which are actually available yet. Should MS have delayed the launch of the 360 to wait until those drives were available?

 

[UltraMarioMan]

Why does this discussion seem so familar...

 

[trmas]

Which next-generation drive would that be? HD-DVD? BluRay? Neither of which are actually available yet. Should MS have delayed the launch of the 360 to wait until those drives were available?

Yes. They might have had a more polished presentation instead of a rushed, buggy one as well.