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[LeleSocho]

ITT - people that enjoy dark souls prove they are elitist assholes that think their experience would be cheapened if other people could play their games.

If the only thing that makes a souls game a souls game is unfair design and overly punishing consequences for death than it belittles every single other facet of their design.

Get out of here with this line of thinking, it's been shown an infinite amounts of times that the games do not have unfair design it simply endorses the mentality of not rushing down on whatever you see.
It's not a matter of elitism it's a matter of changing an entire franchise philosophy just because you don't like it.
Because that's what it is, i don't like the fact that the game requires me to go slowly and therefore the game has to change for me. That's way more arrogant than wanting the game to remain as it is.

 

[diablogod]

Dude, there already is a competent easy mode. It's called coop (you can also summons NPCs). There are also many items that will make the combat much easier. What you are asking for is already there. Play the game before you assume so many things.

I have no dog in this race either way. I had never played a Souls game before Bloodborne and beat it in about 50 hours using only the Hunters Axe and no guides or videos or any junk like that. I could care less if this game had a easy mode or a god mode where you could just crush enemies in 1 hit or were invincible. I wouldn't use it personally, but wouldn't care if it was there.

But isn't calling co-op the games easy mode pretty weak? For newcomers (like I was) just figuring out how co-op actually works is a nightmare all itself.

 

[MikeyB]

I am not good at this game at all, but still enjoy it for the atmosphere and generally because I love action games (I'm bad at all action games though).

I've made the game easier and less time consuming by (1) co-op, (2) grinding (I find this faster than dying over and over and over), and (3) threaded cane in the whip mode.

To give you an idea of how bad I am, even at level 50, I still cannot reliably counter the trolls to the left of the central Yharnam lamp more than 60% of the time.

 

[kevm3]

Nah. No easy mode. Enough games have already been 'streamlined' and 'casualized' to make games super easy. There are plenty of series where you don't have to cultivate any skill to win. Souls doesn't need to be another one.

 

[V-Faction]

You can still be easily killed by a low level enemy if you're not careful.

The level up in this game is in your stats, yes. However, the biggest enemy is the unknown, and "levelling up" is more important in player experience: how to deal with enemies, knowing what traps are coming up, what weapon and defense to use against bosses, etc etc.

You can quite easily take on tough bosses with skill and low stats.

My first time through was tough (just in the first fucking area) but I got a co op buddy and we slogged through the rest of the way. Now I'm restarting from scratch and while I still die, I don't die as much and I do get more sense of it being my fault vs the games (especially the souls series).

Right, of course. In fact, I think that's one of the hallmarks of the Souls series is you can still get your butt kicked.

But, I guess to clarify my original statement, the option to grind is there. A player just has to commit to it. Then, it becomes a matter of overleveling in order to make things... easier. It's slow, boring, and getting more tedious the higher you go... but it's there! Already in the game.

Cause, if the player can't handle the twitchy action part, they can compensate by exploiting the RPG part. Which still can't replicate the memorization, the experience, the learning involved. May as well make a computer play the game at that point.

 

[cjp]

Is BB like Demon Souls in that if you die you lose everything you have and respawn absolutely miles away from where you were?

I don't mind dying loads of times, so much as constantly having to go through the same section over and over only to die again when I reach the bit I'm having difficulty with.

Anyone?

 

[Veelk]

I think you kind of were saying that it wouldn't have consequences earlier in the thread, you were even demanding for posts that proved it at all. Not a big deal or anything, but that's the stance I was replying to.

The point of pride thing... that's conjecture. It could end up being true, perhaps the main game being as good as it is would still push players to experience the game in the "best" way for the most part, and the easy mode carebears would be both happier and rare. My perspective, however, isn't just conjecture, but based on 20+ years of the history of online games. Separating sharks and seals fundamentally changes the feel of the game for both sides in all the aspect where players interact with each other. I lean towards Dark Souls not being an exception to this.

I got a bit wrapped up in the debate and probably overstated some things. I apologize for that. Here's my stance on it as of now:

I will concede that creating an easier difficulty with the online portion of the game will present some challenging in maintain the game as is. There would have to be some alterations to that in order to keep the fanbase healthy. I also don't imagine this would have an extraordinary huge impact on the game, as it is still largely centered around fighting NPC's rather than human enemies, but as I haven't played it, I'll let others decide if I'm wrong on that speculation.

I will also concede while I don't believe that an easy mode is by any means impractical, my playing the game will offer more detailed perspective. There's no way an easy mode wouldn't be impossible, but I'll have a better idea of it's limitations upon playing the game and will re-engage in this debate then.

 

[MikeyB]

Anyone?

Sorta. You have all your gear. The good thing is that enemies are slow and you can sprint past most of them to get to where you died if you need to.

 

[Mr. Nice_Guy]

Disagreeing with someone isn't shitting on them.

Agreed, but there are people in this thread shitting on them.

The game isn't that hard, I'm currently in my first playthrough with BB I bought it like a week ago. I was scared to try it because people always kept talking about the absurd difficulty which is a bit overrated it's challenging but fair. You need to grind for them echoes to be able to body enemies and learn their patterns each time you die you pick up on enemies habits. This is my ongoing thread at the moment currenty at the lecture room.

I'm a noob and it clicked quick, I hate games with instant gratification and this game respects you.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1138412&highlight=

I'm glad you've been enjoying it! Looking like my GOTY. I found it a lot easier than previous games by Miyazaki, but it being my third "souls" game could have had a lot to do with it as well. I was surprised by the number of bosses I one shotted.

Instant gratification doesn't do anything for me either, and I think the souls series toes the line between challenge and reward really well for me.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

Right, of course. In fact, I think that's one of the hallmarks of the Souls series is you can still get your butt kicked.

But, I guess to clarify my original statement, the option to grind is there. A player just has to commit to it. Then, it becomes a matter of overleveling in order to make things... easier. It's slow, boring, and getting more tedious the higher you go... but it's there! Already in the game.

Cause, if the player can't handle the twitchy action part, they can compensate by exploiting the RPG part. Which still can't replicate the memorization, the experience, the learning involved. May as well make a computer play the game at that point.

Currently grinding to level 80 Yahargul Chapel ain't no joke I'm at level 77, I enjoy getting the echoes.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

Anyone?

Only your blood echoes which you can pick up again. You lose all your previous blood echos only if you dead before reaching them.
Most of the time, you can get there "fast"

 

[myco666]

Anyone?

You don't lose everything if you die in BB or in Demon's Souls. Also in both games you respawn about minute or less away from where you died. But yes BB has same set of rules as Demon's Souls.

 

[De_Legend]

Well, that would not be possible if you play the game online.
But when offline maybe, that could be an option ?

True, that would be the only option, put the game offline and pause the game. I don't think it would make the game easier, just that for me it could be useful when getting distracted etc. I'll still love these games no matter what, it's just a little detail.

 

[DoubleTake]

Anyone?

You dont lose everything you have. Just the XP youve accumulated to that point. And even then you can get it back. And if you dont get it back theres no reason to worry because playing through later areas will net you way more than youll know what to do with.

And if you dont want to fight through the same enemies again you can run past damn near everything. Looking for shortcuts that halves the time to bosses helps a bunch too.

 

[MrHoot]

Anyone?

Pretty much (well you only lose your blood echoes, which are the equivalent of souls), although BB is also shortcut porn as it rewards you often by giving you quick paths back to your lamp.

There is something you can do though however, especially in the beginning, and it's just sprinting past ennemies to get back to wherever you dropped your echoes. A lot of people feel forced to fight every enemy they get past but really once you explored the area once and got the items you wanted, you can ignore a bunch of them by just sprinting (just beware of dogs, and don't do it in unknown territory )

 

[zerokoolpsx]

Hopefully never.
Closest thing would be the co-op.

 

[Brashnir]

Well, that would not be possible if you play the game online.
But when offline maybe, that could be an option ?

Most of the time when you're online, nobody else is connected to your game. I think it would be fine to let people pause as long as nobody else is connected to their game.

You shouldn't be able to futz around in the inventory with the game paused, either, but that's easy enough to lock out.

 

[DoubleTake]

I got a bit wrapped up in the debate and probably overstated some things. I apologize for that. Here's my stance on it as of now:

I will concede that creating an easier difficulty with the online portion of the game will present some challenging in maintain the game as is. There would have to be some alterations to that in order to keep the fanbase healthy. I also don't imagine this would have an extraordinary huge impact on the game, as it is still largely centered around fighting NPC's rather than human enemies, but as I haven't played it, I'll let others decide if I'm wrong on that speculation.

I will also concede while I don't believe that an easy mode is by any means impractical, my playing the game will offer more detailed perspective. There's no way an easy mode wouldn't be impossible, but I'll have a better idea of it's limitations upon playing the game and will re-engage in this debate then.

Im glad you finally understand the point many of us were trying to make. I'm definitely looking forward to your future LTTPs

 

[Clockwork5]

I have beaten Bloodborne several times, I am a huge fan of the game and the Souls series as well and I would enjoy blowing through an easy mode once or twice.

It would take absolutely nothing away from the game if there was a mode where the player does more damage and enemies did less damage. Absolutely nothing. There are a lot of slippery slopes in this thread.

Bring on the easy mode, I say.

 

[Wagram]

I have to admit that I don't think it really matters what FROM does because there will always be a select group that will ask for even easier options. Bloodborne is by far the easiest of the Souls experiences with more vials, high invincibility frames, easier parries, summoning, etc, but there's still clamoring for easier options. This is Souls lite, it is the easy mode without most of the punishing mechanics.

What more can you really ask for? X to win? I don't believe an easy mode would be the end of the world as long as it has no ramifications on the main experience, but that concern that it will is always there.

 

[SHarris78]

My take.....

Bought the game on release just because it was a new game to play on PS4.

I knew it was supposed to be difficult, and I knew it was a risk buying it because of that (not exactly the greatest gamer in the world) but bought it nonetheless.

I put a few hours into it, loved the world and art style. After MANY attempts finally killed the first big guy (executioner?) you meet near the start of the game, went back to him later a few times and couldn't do it again. I realise I could have ignored him, but they way I see it is that if I can't deal with an encounter like that thrown at you so early on, what chance will I have of progressing much further. I also couldn't find many of the shortcuts to save restarting miles away from where you die. After a few hours, I wasn't enjoying it due to the difficulty and came to the conclusion the game just isn't for me (may try it again in the future though!).

I think the important part is what i've bolded above, i've moved on and am happily playing other games that are more to my liking / skill level (I'm currently really enjoying playing through AC:Syndicate). As for whether an easy mode should be added to BB - personally I don't think i'd get anything out of it. The feeling of fear and dread of whats lurking around the next corner would no longer be there, and defeating these enemies and the rush you get from that is a big part of the game. But, if people would be content with a game where you slice and dice from start to finish with little effort, should they be allowed that option? For me, if FROM have decided 'this is how they game is meant to be played', then that's that.

As for the elitists (not just re: the Souls games), why should the opinions of these people bother you? Just leave them to it.

 

[Lys Skygge]

If an easy mode was ever to be implemented to a Souls game it should disable all trophies/achievements. Only the gud players should be allowed something to show for their effort.

Seriously, I feel an easy mode would compromise the experience and I hope it's something that's never implemented.

 

[Clockwork5]

If an easy mode was ever to be implemented to a Souls game it should disable all trophies/achievements. Only the gud players should be allowed something to show for their effort.

Seriously, I feel an easy mode would compromise the experience and I hope it's something that's never implemented.

How would easy mode compromise your experience?

 

[codhand]

i dont have a problem with none a them thar easy-modes, just keep em off my lawn and out muh neighborhood!

 

[Palculator]

i dont have a problem with none a them thar easy-modes, just keep em off my lawn and out muh neighborhood!

Ableism first and now racism. The drugs people are on, I don't even want to know.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

This conversation reminds me of the execution barrier of SF games, granted as of late it's been watered down because people couldn't do a proper shoryuken motion.. Charge characters are now motion characters etc

 

[GodofWine]

Jesus this community.

I wouldn't mind if they added something similar to Ninja Gaiden where if you keep dying over and over again they gave you that pink scarf/item and the ninja dog mode and made shit easier for you.

Just leave a bunch of trophies/achievements locked behind the regular mode. Done.

The atmosphere and exploration can be just as enjoyable for some folks who aren't good at the mechanics/combat, and maybe they'd be willing to give it a proper go if they are able to beat it at first, learn the enemies, and then try it again at a harder difficulty.

Yes. All yes.

 

[Hektor]

This thread is amazing. People are explaining the same shit over and over again, and yet some people completely ignore that and bring up the same qeustions over and over again, just to ignore the answer they're getting. And everynow in between you find shitposts like this:

i dont have a problem with none a them thar easy-modes, just keep em off my lawn and out muh neighborhood!

Werent you the one complaining about dem hostile souls-fans? Cute.

 

[Persona7]

Well IMO its the easiest one of all the souls games for me...

It is pretty easy but I don't know if the game is just easy or if all those hours I spent playing the souls games contributed towards me just playing well.

 

[StoneFox]

Using disability as an argument?

Making a game accessible to the disabled is meant to give them the tools to provide a similar gaming experience as a normal player and level the playing field, not make the game easier out of pity. Providing an easy mode is not very comparable to that.

 

[nded]

Oh, pages of people patiently responding to other people arguing from a position of ignorance.

Easy mode Souls exists, but the option is integrated directly into the game rather than a slider in a menu. Just ask about items/strategies and summon dudes, most Souls fans are perfectly willing to help you enjoy the games they love.

 

[codhand]

Ableism first and now racism. The drugs people are on, I don't even want to know.

it's destressing to see a community that typically prides itself on inclusionary practices with regards to race, gender, etc etc, come across as dogmatic as the most obstinate conservative

 

[Lys Skygge]

How would easy mode compromise your experience?

It would completely compromise online invasions. Who would have the upper hand? The normal player or the easy mode player? What about asking for assistance? What if you happened to summon an "easy mode" player? Would the game become easier for the normal player or become harder for the easy mode player? The online aspect of Souls games is a big part of its design. No one wants a split player-base based on difficulty in addition to platform. And no one wants to have their experience compromised because they happen to summon an easy mode player.

Just read through the thread, there are plenty of good reasons why easy mode is not needed in Souls games.

 

[Palculator]

it's destressing to see a community that typically prides itself on inclusionary practices with regards to race, gender, etc etc, come across as dogmatic as the most obstinate conservative

lol

 

[Gbraga]

Oh, now I'm racist too?

Awesome.

 

[Deku Tree]

I just want a diamond in the distance to follow and tell me where to run next !!!

 

[Wagram]

It is pretty easy but I don't know if the game is just easy or if all those hours I spent playing the souls games contributed towards me just playing well.

The experience you have certainly contributes to a degree, but like i've stated in previous posts; Bloodborne is far more lenient on the player. It plays differently with faster animations, more healing items, etc. There's a lack of punishing mechanics in this experience (which is fine because it's not Souls 3, it's Bloodborne). Go back to any of the Souls experiences and watch how it plays out differently with slower healing animations, less healing items, harder parries, more damage taken per hit, etc.

They're very different takes on mechanics, and it feels like Bloodborne was created as a gap between people who want the very Souls like experience and those who don't want to deal as much with the non-sense (punishing mechanics).

This article is actually very good at discussing the difference between Miyazaki's Souls + Dark Souls 2 and Bloodborne: http://attackofthefanboy.com/opinion/bloodborne-is-miyazakis-worst-souls-game/

 

[Inorganic]

Just my 2 cents… I would not support an easy mode. The reality is that these games are not for everyone. It caters to a certain group and there is nothing else quite like it. That is why I and countless others love this series. The point of these games is to place players in an unforgiving world, let them fend for themselves, and challenge their gameplay skills and intelligence. There is no guidance or hand holding; everyone is out to use you, or kill you. You never know what lurks around the corner. Souls/Bloodborne thrives on difficulty and punishment. You have to learn from your mistakes, master the system, and grow with your character. This feeling of progression is tremendously rewarding and it simply cannot be replicated by playing these games on an “easy mode.”

 

[Derpot]

I think (and I'm probably not alone, some people may have already said it before) that challenge is part of the game's atmosphere. Your character is just some dude who must explore and survive in a very dangerous world. Playing in easy mode where you feel almighty when you absolutely slay everything very easily would ruin this aspect.

I dunno, I mean, I love exploring and being surprised by dangerous monsters. Like that part when I saw a giant for the first time in the Cathedral Ward, hearing the noise of his chains, and noticing his giant axe, I felt threatened. The feeling of being threatened because the monsters are that deadly is part of the game's atmosphere.

 

[myco666]

I have beaten Bloodborne several times, I am a huge fan of the game and the Souls series as well and I would enjoy blowing through an easy mode once or twice.

It would take absolutely nothing away from the game if there was a mode where the player does more damage and enemies did less damage. Absolutely nothing. There are a lot of slippery slopes in this thread.

Bring on the easy mode, I say.

How would you implement it without affecting online portion of the game that the game is very heavily designed around?

This conversation reminds me of the execution barrier of SF games, granted as of late it's been watered down because people couldn't do a proper shoryuken motion.. Charge characters are now motion characters etc

This is off-topic but I really don't like how almost all characters in SFV are motion based now as I just learned to like playing charge characters (Urien, Boxer, Dictator etc.) and even preferred them over motion characters.

 

[Lys Skygge]

They should just add a "Hard Mode" and call the current "Easy Mode"

Everyone wins.

 

[gunslikewhoa]

And I'd love to see you point to an instance of me saying you did.

No, really, how in hell did you get "I am saying you think this" out of my asking a straightforward question.

RTMFT, I guess. It's pretty straightforward. You quoted my post when you wrote that. You challenged me, specifically, in response to me saying that players who choose easy mode would be ruining their own experience. It seems you're arguing with so many people that you can't keep up with all of them.

 

[nded]

They should just add a "Hard Mode" and call the current "Easy Mode"

Everyone wins.

Or just have the option and have it not do anything. Placebo effect, y'all.

 

[myco666]

Or just have the option and have it not do anything. Placebo effect, y'all.

That would be fantastic.

 

[xPhinehas]

They should just add a "Hard Mode" and call the current "Easy Mode"

Everyone wins.

New Game+ is basically this already.

 

[Melfice7]

This isn't the Bundesliga.

 

[Newtype-001]

I think (and I'm probably not alone, some people may have already said it before) that challenge is part of the game's atmosphere. Your character is just some dude who must explore and survive in a very dangerous world. Playing in easy mode where you feel almighty when you absolutely slay everything very easily would ruin this aspect.

I dunno, I mean, I love exploring and being surprised by dangerous monsters. Like that part when I saw a giant for the first time in the Cathedral Ward, hearing the noise of his chains, and noticing his giant axe, I felt threatened. The feeling of being threatened because the monsters are that deadly is part of the game's atmosphere.

Exactly, I already posted this twice, maybe 3rd times the charm

Miyazaki: Indeed. So, our way of thinking is that we have the high difficulty on one side, but on the other side we have this feeling of fighting for your life to help bring about that sense of accomplishment. You encounter an enemy and know it’s going to be a tough battle. You start fighting and your hands get sweaty, and you feel like you barely scraped through by the end of the encounter. We knew we wanted elements to make players feel that way other than just numerical difficulty settings.

 

[w1nter]

This thread is amazing. People are explaining the same shit over and over again, and yet some people completely ignore that and bring up the same qeustions over and over again, just to ignore the answer they're getting.

That's happening because there hasn't been a single answer that's a good enough when it comes to not implementing easy mode for those who don't want to waste their time upon hours on the same boss.

And the reason for that is that there's no good reason to not implement an easy mode. Yes, it would provide additional problems, but nothing that would be impossible to solve.

 

[Lys Skygge]

New Game+ is basically this already.

I personally found NG+ to be easier than NG. Sure enemies had a bit more health and hit a bit harder, but I already knew all the tricks and strategies and I was able to breeze through NG+ and NG++ with no problems.

I wish NG+ gave enemies new move sets.

 

[xPhinehas]

That's happening because there hasn't been a single answer that's a good enough when it comes to not implementing easy mode for those who don't want to waste their time hours on the same boss.

And the reason for that is that there's no good reason to not implement an easy mode. Yes, it would provide additional problems, but nothing that would be impossible to solve.

Because that isn't Miyazaki's vision (see above post). If you don't want to "waste your time" play another game.