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[Raistlin]

So where the fuck is the story?

There isn't one.

Just some haters throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks.

Except you can run windows on a mac

Except you can't run Android, WebOS, ARM Win8, etc on an iPad

 

[FrontalMonk]

So basically, people are pissed that when you buy "A Windows 8 Tablet", that you won't be able to put Linux on it. Why does linux have to be on fucking everything, otherwise people throw a shit fit? A poster above said that you can put Linux on an iPad; sure, once it's -jailbroken-. It's a hackjob to put linux on most things, and ARM tablets are no exception. Some enterprising fan is going to cracy the security on the chip, and the people that want linux on their tablet will find some way to get it.

Let's be realistic though. If you wanted linux on a tablet, you wouldn't buy a Windows 8 tablet anyway, you'd get something else. Just like if you wanted an android tablet you wouldn't buy an iPad. I don't hear anyone crying about not getting android on their iPad. Will I be able to put windows 8 on my iPad? No? OH SHIT, STOP THE PRESSES.

 

[The Technomancer]

On the one hand: This is no worse than Apple restricting people from installing OSX on machines without the special EFI chip to protect their overpriced hardware cartel

The opposite actually. I may not be able to (easily) install OSX on anything else, but my MacBook sure as hell has Windows 7 and Ubuntu partitions.

 

[Stinkles]

This is a ridiculous storm in a teacup. May as well be furious because a car isn't a motorbike.

 

[Slayven]

Right, and my company would be a perfect example of that. We've been trying to push the jump to Win7 for the past year, and in that time executive management has gone from sticking to XP and IE6 to completely pushing forward with tablets and dumb terminals streaming virtual desktops. That's a huge shift, and I doubt we're alone (because none of our executives have ever had an original thought in their lives).

IT infrastructure will only advance as far as the IT guys are willing to work.

This thread brings back memories of "Can you run linux on it?" and "Year of Linux" threads.

 

[AgentP]

Don't care. Not why I'd be buying one of these anyways.

This.

 

[unrenowned]

Shockingly Windows tablets are just like all other tablets!
How is this any different from Androids or iPads?

 

[Stumpokapow]

Shockingly Windows tablets are just like all other tablets!
How is this any different from Androids or iPads?

All of the other tablets did not take an existing home PC operating system and put it on a tablet, untouched.

 

[kehs]

Nor will users have the choice to simply disable secure boot, as they will on non-ARM systems: "Disabling Secure [Boot] MUST NOT be possible on ARM systems."

Handing over hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars for hardware that you can't mess around with at the discretion of the software guys.

Awesome.

I was super stoked for W8, shame.

 

[lunarworks]

Shockingly Windows tablets are just like all other tablets!
How is this any different from Androids or iPads?

Because it's a new paradigm for Windows.

Windows has always run on "open" hardware, so when it finally runs on "closed" hardware everyone is left shocked and gasping.

That's all.

 

[Complex Shadow]

All of the other tablets did not take an existing home PC operating system and put it on a tablet, untouched.

but windows 8 is suppose to be built for both tablets and desktops. also would you really want another tablet with tablet only software? this is how microsft is trying to differentiate it self from other tablets.

 

[Windu]

so is this similar to the UEFI stuff? which turned out to be a non issue

 

[Somnid]

so is this similar to the UEFI stuff? which turned out to be a non issue

It's exactly the UEFI stuff.

 

[Windu]

It's exactly the UEFI stuff.

ah ok, so its just up to the OEMs to provide the option to disable it.

 

[Doffen]

I mean for 99% of people this isn't an issue, but I'm still concerned what this move could mean. I'm planning on switching my desktop from Windows 7 to another OS and if I had been born 10 years later, who knows if I'd be able to do that.

Why would you use Windows 7 10 years from now?

 

[Mudkips]

Secure boot is designed to make sure you boot to the right shit and don't get fucked by malware. Bootable devices need to be signed by a key.

It is up to OEMs to decide how to manage those keys.
OEMs could easily ship you the key with your device (or just print it on a sticker) so you can install whatever OS you want (just sign with the key and install). OEMs won't, though, because OEMs making ARM devices want you locked in.

The "custom" mode is far less secure (bascally, it's not), and MS has decided to mandate that it be disabled for all ARM-powered devices. It's more secure, and if you want to install other operating systems, bug your OEM for the key you need.

 

[Wiktor]

All of the other tablets did not take an existing home PC operating system and put it on a tablet, untouched.

The ARM version doesn't do that thogh :] It might look similiar, but it's not any OS that exist right now.

 

[clav]

Microsoft doesn't want to make Windows 8 installation disks for ARM devices nor require users to plug in external disk drives to fix installations.

If the installation is fubared, a user will be told to revert back to factory settings using the built-in Windows 8 recovery system.

Otherwise, the user sends the unit to the manufacturer for RMA. No need for lengthy tech support chat and gone are the wasted hours telling the user to perform other options.

Basically, the manufacturers are responsible for licensing Windows 8 for ARM devices.

Somebody is going to find a way around this I bet, and there are always Android + leftover webOS tablets for those who like hacking around devices.

 

[eastmen]

It's not OK for anyone to do it. However, why should we not be concerned that Microsoft was doing the right thing but then changed their stance opportunistically? The issue is that Microsoft is doing something worse than they were before; it's a regression, and it's tantamount to losing a great feature in a new version of some software application.

MS is competing agsint others that are already doing this. Why should ms have the only tablets that you can easily replace the os on ? Why not go complain about apple

It's a good point, but a slippery slope. Microsoft is the company I least trust when it comes to this stuff, and if given the chance (and nobody calls them out for this), they'll try it on x86/64 next.

How many MS products have been released that you can only install one OS on it ?

1) Xbox
2)xbox 360

How many andriod and apple devices have released with only ios or andriod as the os and having to hack to put others on it ? Yet you trust MS the least ?

You don't see a problem and Linux isn't useful for you, but that's just forcing your dislike of freedom and choice on others. For managing open source applications and serious web programming and development, Linux is still tops. And it's a bleak future when up and coming programmers can't try it out and get used to a better development environment because Microsoft won't let them.

I don't see a problem because if i go to dell to buy a pc and it comes with windows why would i change it ? Buy a pc from a company that preloads linux or build one yourself.

The freedom doesn't go away. Why MS have to deal with security issues the other companys don't have too ?


Your a simple fan boy attacking MS for what the others already do

 

[user_nat]

How many MS products have been released that you can only install one OS on it ?

1) Xbox
2)xbox 360

Windows Phone

 

[eastmen]

All of the other tablets did not take an existing home PC operating system and put it on a tablet, untouched.

No they just spent alot of money copying the Desktop os's .Everytime i use my epic 4g and see the grid of icons i go ... oh look just like my windows 3.1 install. Everytime I see IOS I say the same thing .


I also don't think you can claim that windows 8 with metro on arm is the same as windows 7. There are tons of changes

 

[eastmen]

Windows Phone

http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/04/microsoft-approved-windows-phone-7-unlocker-goes-live/

not quite

 

[kehs]

MS is competing agsint others that are already doing this. Why should ms have the only tablets that you can easily replace the os on ? Why not go complain about apple




How many MS products have been released that you can only install one OS on it ?

1) Xbox
2)xbox 360

How many andriod and apple devices have released with only ios or andriod as the os and having to hack to put others on it ? Yet you trust MS the least ?





I don't see a problem because if i go to dell to buy a pc and it comes with windows why would i change it ? Buy a pc from a company that preloads linux or build one yourself.

The freedom doesn't go away. Why MS have to deal with security issues the other companys don't have too ?


Your a simple fan boy attacking MS for what the others already do

The very subtle difference that people are overlooking, is that products that are vertically integrated (xbox, ipad, zune, galaxy tab), it's okay for the mfg provider to say "only this" because this device is 100% theirs.

When you have the software guy stepping in and mandating the independent hardware provider to prevent having open hardware, it's absolute bullshit.

 

[Wiktor]

When you have the software guy stepping in and mandating the independent hardware provider to prevent having open hardware, it's absolute bullshit.

If hardware provider wants to make it open they will be able to by simply providing users with keys

 

[bigtroyjon]

The thing is, yes, for now this is only for tablets, and yes, other tablets don't allow alternate OS's as easily as PCs do right now. My problem with this move is twofold:

1. Microsoft opted-in to do it. They could have let it be the same situation for Windows PCs (which, even under Windows 8 and secured boot, allow alternate OS's), but they went out of their way to cut alternate OS's out because they think they can get away with it. Going by the anti-choice apologists in this thread, they may be right about that. The code is all there, it's all set up and implemented, but Microsoft went out of their way to disable it on Windows ARM.

2. This is a regression. No matter the situation for other devices and OS's, the fact that Windows has always allowed a modicum of choice was always nice for peace of mind -- and also allowed people to experiment and change OS's. It forced Microsoft to make Windows the best, instead of locking people in. With Windows 8 ARM, that's gone. And if nobody makes a stink over this, Microsoft will eventually try it with PCs, too.

Windows PC allowed choice(and will always allow choice) because Microsoft had to do that because of anti trust issues. They don't have a monopoly on tablets so no such anti trust issues exist.

Simple as that.

 

[eastmen]

The very subtle difference that people are overlooking, is that products that are vertically integrated (xbox, ipad, zune, galaxy tab), it's okay for the mfg provider to say "only this" because this device is 100% theirs.

When you have the software guy stepping in and mandating the independent hardware provider to prevent having open hardware, it's absolute bullshit.

having the added security will only serve to make the devices more secure .

Ipad doesn't get pass , its a tablet and the same with galaxy tab . If they don't have to be open then neither does the MS stuff . Your simply making excuses for your attacks on MS

 

[Combichristoffersen]

I'm sure there are a lot of people who would normally use one OS (ie: Android or Windows) and then switch to the other whenever they need to run a particular app or program that is exclusive to one of the two OS's.

Your opinion is the same as saying that people should buy separate machines for running OSX and Windows.

Tablets != PCs.

This thread really is just anti-MS crusaders crying about not being able to run Linux on their fucking toaster.

 

[Gaspode_T]

What the heck is the diff between an ARM tablet and an ARM console that cannot be jail broken? It is a consumer device, not a PC

 

[Blackhead]

I think the arm windows 8 variant is a huge regression. I'm wont be giving up my samsung slate for any reason.

Tablets != PCs.

This thread really is just anti-MS crusaders crying about not being able to run Linux on their fucking toaster.

What about if I want to run Android on my windows tablet, huh?

 

[Tworak]

Tablets != PCs.

This thread really is just anti-MS crusaders crying about not being able to run Linux on their fucking toaster.

and morons spewing random bollocks about pish they haven't got a single clue about.

it really is a great thread.

 

[Stumpokapow]

No they just spent alot of money copying the Desktop os's .Everytime i use my epic 4g and see the grid of icons i go ... oh look just like my windows 3.1 install. Everytime I see IOS I say the same thing .

This is insane.

I also don't think you can claim that windows 8 with metro on arm is the same as windows 7. There are tons of changes

Windows 8 with Metro on ARM is not the same as Windows 7, it's the same as Windows 8 with Metro on a desktop PC. This is the source of the criticism. It's fine if you don't agree that it's problematic to lock it down--that's a philosophical thing--but it's important that people don't keep posting "I don't understand what the problem supposedly is."

but windows 8 is suppose to be built for both tablets and desktops. also would you really want another tablet with tablet only software? this is how microsft is trying to differentiate it self from other tablets.

I think Microsoft's approach here is dumb because I think the form factor inherently requires a different OS approach. Metro is certainly more tablet-friendly than previous interfaces, but I see no reason why the device should have the same OS as the desktop. I'm not damning their eventual execution, and I buy an awful lot of gadgets so I'm not saying I wouldn't buy one, but I don't have high expectations.

having the added security will only serve to make the devices more secure .

This is not a robust understanding of computer security. Security at the OS level (freedom from viruses and other malware, sandboxes for programs of questionable origin, a curated application store, etc) is completely separate from having a locked bootloader. W8 Tablets may or may not be secure, but it won't be because of this. Is your primary concern with your current W7 install attacks from within the OS, or attacks on your bootloader? Bootloader malware does exist, but it is an exceedingly small proportion of overall malware, and does not require bootloader locking to resolve.

Ipad doesn't get pass , its a tablet and the same with galaxy tab . If they don't have to be open then neither does the MS stuff . Your simply making excuses for your attacks on MS

I'd really appreciate it if you stuck to attacking the arguments instead of repeatedly calling Andrex a fanboy. We don't do that here. Either you assume he's arguing in good faith and you simply disagree with him, or you don't post. Impugning his motives is not welcome.

What the heck is the diff between an ARM tablet and an ARM console that cannot be jail broken? It is a consumer device, not a PC

If our expectations about what we can do with the operating systems on "consumer devices" ought to be separate from our expectations about what we can do with operating systems on "PCs", ought the qualities of the operating systems on consumer devices be separate from the qualities of operating systems on PCs?

 

[Combichristoffersen]

What about if I want to run Android on my windows tablet, huh?

You're shit out of luck and should've bought an Android tablet instead if you want to use Android.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

So.. Like an IPad?

the difference is that Apple makes their own hardware...

The very subtle difference that people are overlooking, is that products that are vertically integrated (xbox, ipad, zune, galaxy tab), it's okay for the mfg provider to say "only this" because this device is 100% theirs.

When you have the software guy stepping in and mandating the independent hardware provider to prevent having open hardware, it's absolute bullshit.

oh good, someone else gets it.

 

[Tobor]

Microsoft doesn't want to make Windows 8 installation disks for ARM devices nor require users to plug in external disk drives to fix installations.

If the installation is fubared, a user will be told to revert back to factory settings using the built-in Windows 8 recovery system.

Otherwise, the user sends the unit to the manufacturer for RMA. No need for lengthy tech support chat and gone are the wasted hours telling the user to perform other options.

Basically, the manufacturers are responsible for licensing Windows 8 for ARM devices.

Somebody is going to find a way around this I bet, and there are always Android + leftover webOS tablets for those who like hacking around devices.

Apple already figured a way around this in OS X Lion. If the installation fubars, and local recovery isnt possible, you can boot into a browser and download the entire OS over the Internet.

On ARM devices, the answer is to maintain the OS in firmware, and do a restore if needed. Are they not doing that?

 

[Wiktor]

Windows 8 with Metro on ARM is not the same as Windows 7, it's the same as Windows 8 with Metro on a desktop PC.

No, it's not. It might look similiar, but those two are not compatibile. The ARM version won't even have desktop mode, nor will it run the same software. So bassicaly what's your're saying is that ARM version should be open solely because it looks like a part of PC version.

 

[Raistlin]

All of the other tablets did not take an existing home PC operating system and put it on a tablet, untouched.

Windows 8 already exists? It's not released yet, and the UI for its home screen and touch apps is a dramatic departure from prior Windows OS's.

It's untouched? The ARM rev only runs Metro apps. You can't access the traditional desktop and desktop apps at all.




The device closest to what you're talking about will be the x86 tablets ... and those won't be locked down.

On ARM devices, the answer is to maintain the OS in firmware, and do a restore if needed. Are they not doing that?

Based on the new Refresh and Reset features for Win8 discussed in the main Windows 8 thread ... it seems like they are doing it.

 

[Moppet13]

But so long as you have a modern gigabyte intel motherboard, installing OSX on a self-built PC is no harder than installing Windows 7.

People still use XP, which is really beyond me. I mean it was a great OS... 10 years ago.

I don't really see the problem with what microsoft did? Like half the people in the thread said, iPads can't have other OS on them.

 

[Raistlin]

But so long as you have a modern gigabyte intel motherboard, installing OSX on a self-built PC is no harder than installing Windows 7.

Go on ...

Any good references for doing this?

 

[Biff]

1st post GAF 528238053253259325+1
Rest of GAF 0

 

[Moppet13]

Go on ...

Any good references for doing this?

It's called a hackintosh, you can pretty much just google it.

Edit: I'm pretty sure it's a bit harder than just buying a Gigabyte motherboard too with Mac hardware restrictions.

 

[SyNapSe]

I mean for 99% of people this isn't an issue

I think this mostly sums up the whole conversation. Most people wouldn't even understand what your talking about nor would they be inclined to install another OS. For the incredibly small group of people that feel this is a deal breaker they can simply buy an x86_64 tablet. If you want a Windows tablet today that is your only option, right?

 

[Monumental]

Windows 8 with Metro on ARM is not the same as Windows 7, it's the same as Windows 8 with Metro on a desktop PC. This is the source of the criticism. It's fine if you don't agree that it's problematic to lock it down--that's a philosophical thing--but it's important that people don't keep posting "I don't understand what the problem supposedly is."

For once, I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

Windows 8 already exists? It's not released yet, and the UI for its home screen touch apps is a dramatic departure from prior Windows OS's.

It's untouched? The ARM rev only runs Metro apps. You can't access the traditional desktop and desktop apps at all.

The device closest to what you're talking about will be the x86 tablets ... and those won't be locked down.

BINGO.