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[Drilbit777]

RE2 was able to make it on N64 despite around 800mb on PS1 with all the FMVs and most of the content (rip exteme battle). Would compression have worked for games like MGS, SOTN, and maybe FF7? I realize some cuts would have to be made but RE2 was thought to be impossible but they managed to accomplish it. If RE2 was possible on N64 then maybe other games could have worked as well.

 

[indask8]

FF7 data was duplicated on the three discs, only the FMV were different.

I don't think it would have been possible to fit every FMV, maybe replacing the less important ones with static images + text.

 

[Bluth54]

It probably would of been possible to port some PS1 games over to the N64 like Resident Evil 2 but given the extra development costs, the lower N64 install base and high cartridge prices it probably wasn't worth it.

 

[D.Lo]

Of all PS1 games, RE2 was one of the most bizzare ones to port. It was a multimedia game, with all that video and pre-rendered backgrounds, built specifically around the PS1's limitations (ie no full 3D environments) and strengths (storage space).

Metal Gear would have been waaay easier, its videos were pointless (stock footage of scientists etc) and audio compression would be much easier. And in theory an N64 version could have had larger areas, scaling overhead camera, larger scale environments etc. But even then, the entire game design was built around the limitations and strengths of the PS1.

What the N64 really needed was a high quality fighter, 2D and 3D. Ragua Kids was the only quality 2D one and it was obviously obscure.

SOTN would have been simpler and removal of the videos in it would improve it lol.

 

[Drilbit777]

Of all PS1 games, RE2 was one of the most bizzare ones to port. It was a multimedia game, with all that video and pre-rendered backgrounds, built specifically around the PS1's limitations (ie no full 3D environments) and strengths (storage space).

Metal Gear would have been waaay easier, its videos were pointless (stock footage of scientists etc) and audio compression would be much easier. And in theory an N64 version could have had larger areas, scaling overhead camera, larger scale environments etc. But even then, the entire game design was built around the limitations and strengths of the PS1.

What the N64 really needed was a high quality fighter, 2D and 3D. Ragua Kids was the only quality 2D one and it was obviously obscure.

They only developers really giving the N64 any fighters was midway lol The best we got from them was MK Trilogy but no Capcom support at all.

 

[Blablurn]

I wonder if MGS would have worked with those long cutscenes. At least they got Operation Winback.

 

[D.Lo]

They only developers really giving the N64 any fighters was midway lol The best we got from them was MK Trilogy but no Capcom support at all.

Capcom ported (well or commissioned a port of) RE2 because it was their top game.

But I've always thought a timely 4 player Xmen vs Street Fighter port would have done so well on N64. It would have been quite easy, N64 had plenty of RAM to run it, and played right into the N64 party game thing. And Street Fighter II on SNES remains to this day Capcom's highest selling console game SKU of all time, those Nintendo fighter fans were thirsty.

 

[dc89]

I wonder if MGS would have worked with those long cutscenes. At least they got Operation Winback.

Oh my, the memories I have of this.
Thanks for reminding me Bla

 

[f0lken]

I wonder if MGS would have worked with those long cutscenes. At least they got Hybrid Heaven.

FTFW

 

[GenericUser]

I still can't wrap my head around how they did this. I mean, 800 megs to a N64 cartridge. Science.

 

[Blablurn]

Oh my, the memories I have of this.
Thanks for reminding me Bla

Ur welcome mate! A game ahead of its time!

 

[Throwaway123456789]

I still can't wrap my head around how they did this. I mean, 800 megs to a N64 cartridge. Science.

Higher resolution and more content, too.

 

[Jason Frost]

I still can't wrap my head around how they did this. I mean, 800 megs to a N64 cartridge. Science.

How much N64 cartridges were able to handle at that time?

 

[playXray]

I still can't wrap my head around how they did this. I mean, 800 megs to a N64 cartridge. Science.

That's nothing tbh, it's all about video compression and codec choice. Just this morning I saw a 5MB gif on Reddit that was also available as a 200KB MP4. As long as you're not worried about lossless compression, you can go a long way down.

 

[D.Lo]

That's nothing tbh, it's all about video compression and codec choice. Just this morning I saw a 5MB gif on Reddit that was also available as a 200KB MP4. As long as you're not worried about lossless compression, you can go a long way down.

It's still impressive in this case. The game had all that audio, 3D models and pre-rendered backgrounds too. Shows that the actual game part was tiny.

 

[MrCunningham]

Of all PS1 games, RE2 was one of the most bizzare ones to port. It was a multimedia game, with all that video and pre-rendered backgrounds, built specifically around the PS1's limitations (ie no full 3D environments) and strengths (storage space).

RE2 on the N64 had more than compressed video, Angel Studios (now known as Rockstar San Diego), had to also reduce the texture sizes of many of the bacgrounds to fit within the N64s small texture cache. Also the model textures also got a pretty big downgrade as well. Music was compressed too.

Heres a texture comparion I did quite a while ago for both Leon and Claire. These are the real textures ripped from both games..

Leon

Claire

Also on top of that, Angel Studios had to cram in Factor 5s sound engine, which also took up precios MBs.

Metal Gear Solid does have a lot of audio files when you take into account all of he uniqe codec conversations. I also does have a lot of texures as well. Also add music, and it would be a tight fit into a 64MB catrige.. even with compression. They would have to cut some corners.

It should aslo be noted that RE0 was also planned for the N64... but hat one would've been designed from the ground up to work within he N64s limitations.

Really hard to say how some of tese ports would have faired.

 

[Astral Dog]

No

 

[Drilbit777]

How much N64 cartridges were able to handle at that time?

I believe the highest was 64 mb which is what RE2 used

 

[D.Lo]

RE2 on the N64 had more than compressed video, Angel Studios (now known as Rockstar San Diego), had to also reduce the texture sizes of many of the bacgrounds to fit within the N64s small texture cache. Also the model textures also got a pretty big downgrade as well. Music was compressed too.

Heres a texture comparion I did quite a while ago for both Leon and Claire. These are the real textures ripped from both games..

Leon

Claire

Also on top of that, Angel Studios had to cram in Factor 5s sound engine, which also took up precios MBs.

Yep, but if they cut all the video the actual game data would surely have fit in the 64MB cart anyway without its own quality loss.

 

[ResidentDante]

This is not even my final form!!

 

[cvxfreak]

RE2 on the N64 had more than compressed video, Angel Studios (now known as Rockstar San Diego), had to also reduce the texture sizes of many of the bacgrounds to fit within the N64s small texture cache. Also the model textures also got a pretty big downgrade as well. Music was compressed too.

Heres a texture comparion I did quite a while ago for both Leon and Claire. These are the real textures ripped from both games..

Interesting! I haven't played the N64 version in awhile, but I swore it actually looked better if you used the RAM pak. Maybe my memory is deceiving me.

Music was obviously much worse.

 

[BriGuy]

I'm kind of curious to see what a modern day N64 game would look like, what with literally gigabytes of flash data available for a pittance. I'm guessing the system's texture cache would still make things look like blurry shit, but the audio quality and FMVs would be there.

 

[hotcyder]

I wonder if MGS would have worked with those long cutscenes. At least they got Operation Winback.

It's a good point - most of the cutscenes were done "in-engine" like Banjo-Kazooie used to do it. The only thing they'd have to drop is all the voice over work which sort of makes MGS what it is.

 

[Nev]

This is not even my final form!!

.

 

[mstevens]

FF7 data was duplicated on the three discs, only the FMV were different.

I don't think it would have been possible to fit every FMV, maybe replacing the less important ones with static images + text.

They should have just put FF7 on 3 cartridges and stacked them sonic & knuckles style.

 

[dark10x]

Yep, but if they cut all the video the actual game data would surely have fit in the 64MB cart anyway without its own quality loss.

See, that's the thing, it's not just about storage space.

The N64 has such a small texture cache that it simply couldn't handle the larger textures we see in a lot of PS1 games. Even if the system had access to a full CD, this would be a problem with the way it's designed.

So I think Metal Gear Solid would suffer a lot as the textures used on PS1 are fairly high-res for the era. On N64, they would have to be 1/4 or 1/2 resolution across the board.

 

[Starwolf_UK]

I still can't wrap my head around how they did this. I mean, 800 megs to a N64 cartridge. Science.

The developers did write about it:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131556/postmortem_angel_studios_.php

Some of the FMVs fared poorly as they were 1mb over on cart size in the end and connections to Factor 5 saved them on the audio front.

Interesting! I haven't played the N64 version in awhile, but I swore it actually looked better if you used the RAM pak. Maybe my memory is deceiving me.

In that case it is likely the game resolution was increased when using the expansion pak (or at least the option would be there, I recall games like Hybrid Heaven and Perfect Dark became slideshows if you used their high resolution settings...which is probably why they were optional).

Reading up apparently the native resolution of RE2 on the N64 is variable depending on scene but was never 640x480 (which is what you would assume given the typical 320x240 resolution of N64 games but actually very few games high resolution modes achieved that)

 

[GLAMr]

There was no way MGS could fit in a 64MB cartridge! There's so much recorded dialogue... There would be hundreds of megabytes of digital audio alone. Maybe if you cut out the recorded dialogue, but that's part of he cinematic feel that made MGS great.

I remember reading about Nintendo researching/licensing chips for cartridges that could do hardware decompression to provide more storage without hogging CPU resources. I don't know if anything came of it.

 

[moggio]

They could have put the cut-scenes on a VHS tape.

 

[Atolm]

There was no way MGS could fit in a 64MB cartridge! There's so much recorded dialogue... There would be hundreds of megabytes of digital audio alone. Maybe if you cut out the recorded dialogue, but that's part of he cinematic feel that made MGS great.

I remember reading about Nintendo researching/licensing chips for cartridges that could do hardware decompression to provide more storage without hogging CPU resources. I don't know if anything came of it.

I don't think the audio would have been the biggest problem, Factor 5 managed to put a lot of voice dialogue in Rogue Squadron and even faithfully recreated the Star Wars soundtrack with its MossFX library. I'm more in line with John here, graphics were entirely designed around PSX's limitations.

 

[Jason Frost]

They could have put the cut-scenes on a VHS tape.

lol, has there ever been a video game that did that?

I'm talking about a video game with a video tape, not an audio tape.

 

[eshock]

lol, has there ever been a video game that did that?

I'm talking about a video game with a video tape, not an audio tape.

Dragon's Lair and Space Ace were literally just laserdisc videos behind the scenes. They even did a port to DVD-Video you can control with your remote.

 

[bronzodiriace]

How much N64 cartridges were able to handle at that time?

The largest cartridge was Re2, the second place went to ogre battle with 384mb.

All the other stuff was fixed in 256mb like perfect dark, banjo tooie and others big hit.

The capacity initially was 64mb like wave race 64 and mario 64.

 

[Robin64]

A Giant Bomb poster made a thread to look at the size of various FF7 things.

https://www.giantbomb.com/final-fantasy-vii/3030-13053/forums/final-fantasy-vii-fits-on-a-regular-2gbit-cartridg-15513/

 

[nkarafo]

With 32MB carts, the N64 would probably be able to handle 2D fighting games like Street Fighter Alpha and other Capcom games just fine. Maybe better that the Saturn + the expansion cart. Mortal Kombat should also be Arcade perfect.

The N64 already had 4MB of RAM out of the box (8 with expansion) and no loading times. With a 32MB cart (or the 64MB one RE uses), it should be able to even handle Metal Slug games in almost arcade perfect form with some compression.

See, that's the thing, it's not just about storage space.

The N64 has such a small texture cache that it simply couldn't handle the larger textures we see in a lot of PS1 games. Even if the system had access to a full CD, this would be a problem with the way it's designed.

So I think Metal Gear Solid would suffer a lot as the textures used on PS1 are fairly high-res for the era. On N64, they would have to be 1/4 or 1/2 resolution across the board.

RARE found a way around this texture cache problem though. Instead of using one texture to cover a surface, they would split it in pieces like a puzzle and then connect them to form a bigger texture. It was extra work though for something that devs shouldn't have to deal with but pretty possible.

 

[soxinthebox]

There's no way MGS would've worked unless you remove all the videos and voice conversations. Remember that the Tony Hawk ports had horribly gimped soundtracks and that would've only been an hour of worth of audio in the PS1 version.

 

[soxinthebox]

The largest cartridge was Re2, the second place went to ogre battle with 384mb.

All the other stuff was fixed in 256mb like perfect dark, banjo tooie and others big hit.

The capacity initially was 64mb like wave race 64 and mario 64.

And that's Megabits not Megabytes

 

[Agent_Carnage]

Do you think they could of put Spyro the Dragon on an N64 cart.

 

[ResidentDante]

Do you think they could of put Spyro the Dragon on an N64 cart.

Spyro would have worked well I would think, large open areas and very pastel coloured textures that could have tackled the texture downgrade well.

 

[deriks]

Metal Gear, probably. FF7, I guess that too many videos won't work.

 

[Truant]

Man, I remember RE2 on N64 was such a big deal.

 

[bionic77]

Man, I remember RE2 on N64 was such a big deal.

It caused a lot of fights on the playground in the 90s when kids and dumb adults were debating which console was the stronger of the two.

 

[chronic_archaic]

Symphony of the Night was the first XBLA game the go over the 64MB limit on Xbox 360 - at about 90MB. It had the FMV ripped out, and yeah, an N64 version would have been easily doable with music compression but it probably would have to be more like remixed music due to the different sound hardware and the technology at the time not being good enough to compress audio to a degree to fit in on one cartridge. It's worth noting that the first 64MB cart games were in 1999 so by this point a lot of the games mentioned were already done with for the most part.

 

[120v]

you'd probably see all kinds of dark magic pulled off on an N64 cart in a hypothetical nintendo dominated 32/64 bit gen.

i know the comparison isn't exactly 1:1 but DS was essentially a mini 64 and look at what those little cards were able to accomplish

 

[EoinOL]

lol, has there ever been a video game that did that?

I'm talking about a video game with a video tape, not an audio tape.

Not just a game, an entire system. The idea was that the system overlaid a game on pre-recorded video from a VHS tape. However this meant that games had to be totally linear with no way to lose.

 

[dark10x]

Symphony of the Night was the first XBLA game the go over the 64MB limit on Xbox 360 - at about 90MB. It had the FMV ripped out, and yeah, an N64 version would have been easily doable with music compression but it probably would have to be more like remixed music due to the different sound hardware and the technology at the time not being good enough to compress audio to a degree to fit in on one cartridge. It's worth noting that the first 64MB cart games were in 1999 so by this point a lot of the games mentioned were already done with for the most part.

Thinking of this...is there even a single side scrolling game on N64 with the classic pixel art style? I know there was Bangaio, that has a very unique look.

The thing about N64 that really stinks is that, without modding the system, there is a filter applied to everything - two of them, in fact. Developers could disable part of this chain but you still ended up with blurry output compared to competing systems. Would be curious to see what it would look like.

On top of that, N64 would have run into the same issue as Saturn with SotN specifically. The game runs at 256x224 as a result of pulling some assets from the PC Engine Rondo of Blood title but I don't think N64 supports this resolution (Saturn doesn't either).

So they would have to scale everything or pillar-box. The art was scaled on Saturn and looks awful - on N64 it would likely be blurred.

From what I understand, doing traditional 2D pixel art on N64 isn't exactly a trivial thing either. On PS1 and Saturn, 2D is generally rendered to a pair of triangles without lighting or transformation so it eats up a lot more memory than tile and sprite based systems. Saturn had a second VDP that could specifically handle tile based backgrounds, though, which helped.

N64, though? I wonder if the memory limitations would have made it difficult to achieve high-quality 2D pixel art.

 

[D.Lo]

N64, though? I wonder if the memory limitations would have made it difficult to achieve high-quality 2D pixel art.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Wonder Project J2 had pretty good pixel art, right?

 

[Baconmonk]

And that's Megabits not Megabytes

Right, 64MB or 512megabit was the largest cart size used for RE2 and Conker. If I remember correctly, part of the problem was the physical chips they needed to store the game on were relatively expensive (especially compared to CDs). I think the unique high selling numbers of RE2 on PSX led to the N64 port, and was a wild outlier we wouldn't have seen before or after without a major increase in the N64 install base.

What a weird console it was.

 

[D.Lo]

Wonder Project J2 had pretty good pixel art, right?

Yeah that's the adventure game right?

There were not many 2D games on the system but there's nothing to suggest any limitation IMO. Starcraft 64 alone had so many detailed sprites happening at once.

Rakuga Kids, while obviously actually 3D, was the cleanest '2D look' of the generation IMO, shame that kind of tech never made it to a serious fighting game.

Right, 64MB or 512megabit was the largest cart size used for RE2 and Conker. If I remember correctly, part of the problem was the physical chips they needed to store the game on were relatively expensive (especially compared to CDs). I think the unique high selling numbers of RE2 on PSX led to the N64 port, and was a wild outlier we wouldn't have seen before or after without a major increase in the N64 install base.

What a weird console it was.

Yeah like I said above RE2 on N64 was market research driven, but an incredibly poor/strange choice from a technical perspective to spend all that effort on. I guess RE0 was going to happen, would have been very interesting to see how that turned out, given the team's talent focused on N64 (as we saw a relatively short while later with the suburb REmake).