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Women Characters Redesigned by Women SFF Artists
- Thread starter FlyinJ
- Start date
There's nothing stated in either games But there are interviews and comics that refer to those points. They're utterly negligible points to those games, but they have existed since then.
I'm not defending Other M and never would. I'm merely mentioning that that fact, which was an after thought in the game it originated has existed since the game it originated.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I'm referring to its application. But apparently, Toxi says you're BSing, so I'm just going to wait for a source on when this design (which was interestingly ignored for all games except OM) was implemented.
If they are, then what we have is an idea that was never shoved into the game or its story, and in fact apparently was not a valuable idea since they ignored it all the time.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Yeah, tropes can be crap, but in this case it means that Samus' design isn't sexist because the lack of unique things. Oh well, she is an emotional catsuit wearing barbie blonde who needs to avoid enemies in a stealth section. Welp, it's because the devs were sexist and had to show how weak a woman is without her weaponized armor, and totally not because of other reasons.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I love how you basically have the mindset that it absolutely, positively could not be it. People universally agree that Other M was sexist - and not because of Team Ninja, somehow - and yet design choices predating OM could not be given the same criticism? It would be like people agreeing that the prequels were bad, but getting bothered when Ewoks get criticized.*
*Ewoks were great
Okay. Sorry about that, I was just confused because you said the emotion-driven suit was from Super Metroid.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Other M is shit. And I'm not talking about the design choices. The whole story was horrible, the gameplay mediocre, it's an embarrassment to the franchise. Is it sexist? Just because alot of people feel it is, I'm not going to say 'Yeah the developers were purposely sexist.' The same with the previous games. Since the 8-bit era Samus was a pretty blonde woman. And all her future iterations have played off that. I'm not going to view it with a Western Magnifying Glass and say 'The developers were sexist!' without any proof outside of your observation.
(Edit:I say western because obviously the views on sexuality are different in the East then they are in the West)
Mango The Magician
Banned
Just to clarify, it's unknown what's going on with Link and him appearing in different times along with Zelda and Ganon, some people say he reincarnates, some say he's just there with no excuse, and some don't even subscribe to the lore as they don't take it that seriously. Likewse, if there was reincarnation involved WW Link is in a werid position as considering the lore prior to WW it'd be hard for him to be a follow up to OOT, but ST happened so maybe it's just one big plot hole.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Ultimately, it comes down to - again - application. If the emotion-driven suit predates OM, it doesn't change that they didn't allow it to interfere with the story. Samus could become unconscious, Samus could take multiple blasts from Mother Brain's crazy brain beam (to the point where she literally can't stand up), Samus could take a swipe from an Omega Metroid's claw, without losing her suit. The most we saw was that if she ran out of health, the suit exploded. In Other M though? It's a constant thing. If she becomes emotional - such as with Ridley - her suit comes off. If she gets shot in the back, her suit comes off. The game gives her no agency, and exploits the fuck out of that emotion-driven suit to constantly have her out of the suit for cutscenes.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
Why's that? You realize reincarnation isn't necessarily limited to heirs...
I haven't played Spirit Tracks, but as I was to understand it, the spirit of the hero of time exists in the split timelines. In the Twilight Princess timeline he is the shade to teach Link his new abilities, and in the WW timeline he is reborn as the Hero of the Winds.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Probably the most common pose for a female game character.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Well OOT Link goes back in time at the end of OOT, so the general issue comes into play with how Link could be reincarnated if he doesn't exist in that timeline anymore, but you could say that reincarnation isn't bound by the linearity of time and since his actions did happen at one point in the timeline that the whole spirit thing could have just pulled from him prior to him leaving.
It's a weird catch 22, and none of that is to even say he does reincarnate. Plus, if he does, and WW Link isn't part of the cycle, then logically there would be no cycle anymore, yet ST Link exists, and that takes place after WW and follows the proposed hero cycle to a tee, so yeah.
The hero before WW was the Hero of Time, and he litterally left the universe/timeline and never came back. I might be wrong, but at some point the King of Red Lions straight up says the two heroes have no relation.
Then there's also the fact that we don't know if Link actually get's reincarnated. Zelda keeps some part of Hylia with her, but it's questionable whether she gets reincarnated as Zelda 2 has 2 Zeldas. Ganon isn't actually Demise because Demise is traped in the master sword. Demise's hatred lived on as a curse to haunt and terrorize Hylians, but that doesn't automatically mean Ganon is that hatred, especially if you consider Maladous from Spirit Tracks and the fact that there's many different pig monsters, but only one Ganon. Link has the least reason of the 3 to actually be reincarnated.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Maybe he reincarnates in all 3 alternately, so there's more time between each incarnations in individual timelines. Some times he can't be born in one, cause he's already alive in one. Sorry Child era, Adult era already has dibs.
Vermillion
Banned
Correction: The suit is powered by concentration in Other M, not emotions. Emotions can cause Samus to lose concentration and in turn the suit, but strictly speaking, it's powered by her focus.
I see nothing wrong with these. They actually look like something that they would wear in the movies (since they wouldnt be in fighting uniforms all the time anyway....).
However, I dont think these should 'replace' their iconic original designs. I do wish SF characters had more 'normal clothes' like Tekken characters that they could wear walking down the street or something. Just something more casual.
EDIT: Ryu surely cant be walking barefoot all the time.
A lot of them have been shown in different outfits in the few little glimpses of story you get each game. Like Elena wearing regular clothes when she goes to university.
You're not going to see much of that just because you barely see these characters outside of the part where they beat each other up. Just the nature of story-light fighting games.
Mango The Magician
Banned
I'm pretty sure its stated somewhere that TP and WW happen at the same time just on different branches, but I may be wrong. Afterall, the whole descendents and whatnot thing was never really intended to be taken this seriously anyways, so even if they did one day state that Link actually does reincarnate, I doubt that they'd leave both WW and ST Link out of the loop, they'd probably just rewrite it to include them or make some kind of connection similar to the third timeline regardless of what the lore says or what's in WW.
Still though, if we're to assume that the spirit thing is from
Demise or Hylia
Also, about Zelda,
she doesn't reincarnate, only SS Zelda was a reincarnation, the rest were suppose to be tied together via the naming idea in AoL, but with the official timeline Nintendo put AoL at the end of one of the branches so that can't really work. So in short Zelda is in the same boat as Link and Ganon in that there's no reason behind them other then being staple characters of the series.
Anyways, sorry for derailing this topic, sorta.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
The boobsocks on it have been there a while. It's on the figurine as well, and here's a prize in zero mission.
Personally I give those a free-pass since those are catering more to the hardcore fans and they know their audience there. At the very least these are more seen as "rewards" than the "default" look.
liliththepale
Banned
That makes it dramatically worse. If it's her regular attire, then that's her choosing to dress in a given fashion. If it's a reward of some sort, then that's the devs and you objectifying her.
Sexy rewards are indefensible.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Yeah, I said they were prizes... you said her zero suit was mostly viewed in a neutral light. I point out that even in the game it was created in, it was a sexualized prize. That was the whole point of my original bit about pointing out people comparing the zero suit with spacey undersuits worn by astronauts as if they're the same. Ignoring the boobsocks and butt molding. Plus making the super powerful bountyhunter pose suggestively as a prize rather sucks.
Yeah let's give a pass to stripping a girl as a reward, it's totally a step toward gender equality.
As liliththepale said:
And the muscle version is the exception, not the rule.
I can see why her fans love Samus, but defending the Zero suit(not the suit itself but how it's used to be fanservice) or denying Samus's objectification hurts her instead of helping her because Nintendo will keep objectifying her if her fans say nothing against it(probably Nintendo won't do anything in any case, but at least they will know the issue).
If you want Samus to be the character she deserves to be then stop pretending she isn't blatantly objectified and start to annoy Nintendo to improve Samus' design.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
You do know it is human nature to be looking for lewd right? Both male and female have it. And I was talking about the poses, she still uses the ZS as a normal undersuit for the power suit.
At least you don't have to see something you don't like.
But it only looked sexualized when in certain poses which are locked as that single reward. Outside of that, it's actually pretty neutral.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Uh, individual sock areas for the individual boobs are not neutral. Neither is the butt molding. Those two aspects exist explicitly to show off each individual boob and her ass. She was literally drawn naked and her body painted blue and called it a suit. Don't pretend it's just a form fitting suit and even remotely neutral.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
It's no more different than having armor that shows pecs and abs even if it doesn't make sense. It is "neutral" in a sense that at least they don't make a big deal about it. You have a point in that when she is posing seductively, but at the very least it is stashed away from something that you cannot see unless you really try hard.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
We're not talking boob armor. Yes it is different. We're talking a skin tight suit, for someone who I'm told is supposed to also use this outfit for acrobatics and agility, that instead of... supporting the boobs, mold around them, conforming to their shape. Ouch. They designed a suit that was about being attractive to the prospective player first, and useful to the character 6th. So, no. Not neutral.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Your argument is that it "shapes" into the body like a tight fitting outfit. I argued that it's not that untypical since both are uncomfortable as they mimic the body shape. I didn't say about acrobatics or agility (that's Smash stuff), since she is technically more agile with the power suit.
Zoe
Member
Eh. Just because it conforms doesn't mean there's no support.
"Boob socks" exist in the real world. The only reason they're not as contouring is because that requires individual fitting.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Like someone mentioned before, wasn't the height a mistake?
Dice//
Banned
I'm a super feminist, I'm more defending it because the game was old and took at least the initiative to feature a woman doing "a man's job" (which was the "big spoiler" in early gaming days). I give it a pass in a small, minor way. It shouldn't be, but again, her being a leading badass woman in such an early age of gaming I think was a huge stride in the right direction even if it wasn't in other ways. It's not a GOOD defence, but *shrug*, I doubt people really thought about it back then as we can in a retrospective. The GB and NES looks are 'good' as far as women in gaming, but bad as far as sexualized depiction. The SNES one, however, is rockin'. She's fit and not even really sexualized --- she looks like a bounty hunter sans the massive power suit. I don't think nudity or 'bikini shots' should be a reward in games, i think it's goofy and a silly simplified reward for people looking for a thrill wherever they can get it (and some of the "mansplanations" here or around the Internet range from ridiculous to laughable).
The fact that Other M and the Smash design is so much more 'modern' in context to the rest of the series' history, you'd think it would have a better sense of its bearings and the current gaming climate and to at least be somewhat conscious about design. Instead, it managed Other M coming off more sexist (and damn silly overall) at its core and complete with a much more sexualized designed ZSS where she's lost muscle and gotten larger hips and bust is definitely a conscious decision to make her appealing in the more 'typical way'. Indeed, they're going backwards, and till another game comes out, we're sort of stuck in a rut with what was otherwise one of female gaming's most admirable lead.
I'm on your side, no need to be offended. I'm also concerned this might be more of a symptom of Japanese influence that's much less conscious about this sort of thing as well.
Quite frankly, I do miss the days when out-of-suit Samus was a reward because there was that fun element of mystery where she wasn't really revealed. I'm not even talking about sexiness as much as a 'fun gimmick' to reveal the woman behind the suit. Now it's just flaunted, and loses a lot of mystery to a character with Other M as her backstory.
Dice//
Banned
Not if Little Mac's reveal in Smash had anything to say about it:
(he's around 5'8" I think? I forgot...)
EDIT: shoot, sorry for the double post, muscle memory hit "post" before I remembered to hit edit instead T_T
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
C.Olimar788
Member
The Zero Suit redesign misses the point of the Zero Suit. Then again, so has nearly every single appearance of the thing since Zero Mission, so...
I really like the Great Fairy face that Ms. Mazur drew up. It would go a long way towards making me really like the OoT Great Fairy design.
I really like the Great Fairy face that Ms. Mazur drew up. It would go a long way towards making me really like the OoT Great Fairy design.
Ivory Samoan
Member
I like a lot of them, especially the Seven of Nine rendition.
The Red Sonja one strikes me as out of place though... full chainmail in a Conan-era comic?
Doesn't seem to fit.
The Red Sonja one strikes me as out of place though... full chainmail in a Conan-era comic?
Doesn't seem to fit.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Why would a coat of mail not fit, but bikini of mail would? If chain mail exists in that setting, then it makes more sense for her to wear an armour of it than a bikini of it.
Also, Conan:
A Link to the Past
Banned
Speaking of the Great Fairy, am I the only one who has had the OoT/MM design grow on them since they got older? Sure she's pretty jagged, but I like the voice and I like the general aesthetic.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah I kinda like it too. I don't remember how I felt about it back when I was still a kid (I think I was a round 7 playing it for the first time) but in my more recent playthroughs I've been quite fond of it. It sure sticks out like a sore thumb, but that makes it likable to me.
The polygonal jank kind of helps it, to be honest. The Hyrule Warriors version is basically the same design, just much more detailed and further down the pandering road, but just doesn't look as well:
Because games only have one component, which is art direction. Or parts of it. Wait, that already doesn't compute.
I say that is in the eye of the beholder. If you're not an ass person, she's just ridiculous.
No reason to shut up about it.
And this is just common sense.
They really are.
But she isn't wearing her armoured suit, lololol.
Heels are a big change because of the connotation that Samus would wear uncomfortable shoes for whatever reason (I think we know why).
It's not really her choosing, and besides, you can ignore these moments more easily. You're right regarding the objectification, though.
Also, can we please stop talking about Other M?
Zoe
Member
This woman pretty much sums up all my thoughts.
http://thespectacularspider-girl.tumblr.com/post/113010314274/female-portrayals-in-video-games
http://thespectacularspider-girl.tumblr.com/post/113010314274/female-portrayals-in-video-games
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
That's a pretty interesting read if only for the fact that I always wondered what the lesbian community* thought about this issue. Though I didn't like that she had to make that quip about female critics of sexual(ised) designs having low self esteem or being puritans. Getting pretty tired of this kind of argument.
E: *guess I should add that I'm of course aware she's not a spokeswoman for lesbians or that there even is one before someone assumes I don't know. Poor phrasing on my part, I know.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Shit no. Never could stand the look of her. The ridiculous clown make-up, the stupid face, the obnoxious giggling... I cringe every time she shows up in Hyrule Warriors even if I can skip her cut scene. *shudders* That redraw is a million times better.
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
She still scares the ever loving shit out of me.
WrenchNinja
Member
Superior
spandexmonkey
Banned
...this don't make sense.
She complains that people want bodies MORE diverse by saying that people want to fit a mold ?
Nobody complains that those characters ARE BUSTY or SEXY it is HOW they are sexy that makes no sense. That they favor sexyness to the character design above everything else.
Ivy was ALWAYS busty ... people start complaing when her clothes started disapearing =P
She complains about the peach thing as if the problem with the damsel is for an INDIVIDUAL character not a problem of lack of creativity in media
And people want FAT woman, SHORT WIDE woman ... compare the male overwatch character bodies and you will see how equal are the bodies of all the announced girls at launch are.
Their silhouettes are not diverse enoght and that is a big problem for a fast action game like Overwatch
Natural bustyness is usualy easier to find on "fat" women ... so where are the most common type of busty women ?
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