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[echoshifting]

How does the arena work then? Is it just based off win/loss ratio?

The arena ranking system works in such a way that it doesn't require (or encourage) an insane, competitive grind. It's not at all based on which team is able to put the most time in every week. From what I've gathered, if your team were to win its first ten matches in a given week, it wouldn't make sense to give it a rest for the rest of the week; if you beat people with a worse win/loss ratio in further games, you don't really gain anything, and you risk losing your current position. It's like a chess tournament.

At the end of the week every member of your team receives a set number of points based on your standing. It doesn't look like there will be special rewards reserved for the #1 team at the moment; it'll just cost a prohibitive number of 'arena points' to buy the best gear. So, theoretically, you could be playing on a mediocre team, ten or twelve two-minute matches a week, and EVENTUALLY save enough points to buy one or two pieces of the really good stuff.

This all applies to level 70 arenas only. 60-69 arenas aren't competitive.

Isn't the honour system still in the game as well...just like a rep grind now - no longer competitve? Are there still rewards from it?

Yes and no. Honor ranks are gone, but honor points are still collected. They now function as currency. The higher-ranked stuff currently in the game will no longer be restricted; anyone can buy it as long as they have enough honor to spend. There are also all new rewards you can buy with honor fit for players in the 61-69 range. From what I've heard, though, at 70 it's much better to join an Arena team and go for the arena gear.

 

[echoshifting]

Why do I get the feeling your talking outa yer ass here? You on the beta? Read an impression from someone who is to confirm this?

Don't let him bug you, he has no idea what he's talking about. Another bitter raider.

 

[g23]

Is blizz can pull of this whole xpack per year thing. I can see WoW lasting forever.

 

[civilstrife]

How is it going to work? Are there going to be seperate expansion servers? Will they offer a free character transfer?

 

[g23]

if you don't get the xpack you will be barred from accessing the new areas/content and will not be able to level to 70.

All servers will be updated with xpack content whether you bought the game or not.

 

[civilstrife]

What about things like the new honor system and whatnot? Surely it affects everyone?

 

[echoshifting]

How is it going to work? Are there going to be seperate expansion servers? Will they offer a free character transfer?

The expansion will be fully incorporated into the regular servers. Players without the expansion will be able to interact normally with characters over level 60 and the new Blood Elf/Draenei characters. You'll even be able to buy and use some of the first BoE items out of Outlands when they pop up on the AH.

Things you won't be able to do:

-Enter any of the new zones (including the new starting zones I believe) or any of the new instances, and by association, do any of the things associated with Outlands, like buy/ride a flying mount
-Create a Draenei or Blood Elf character
-Learn Jewelcrafting
-Participate in the Arenas (which will all be located in Outlands)
-Level past 60. Some people have reported that you WILL be able to level past 60 without the expansion. This is completely untrue; you must have the expansion to advance.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

What about things like the new honor system and whatnot? Surely it affects everyone?

Yes, the honor changes will affect everyone, but I believe all of the new PvP rewards are 60+, so you'll only be able to buy the old PvP stuff with honor points.

You'll also be able to use the new talents they're putting in the game. So, a Warlock without the expansion could learn to summon a Felguard since it's possible to pick that talent up at level 50.

 

[civilstrife]

Are the Caverns of Time opened up?

 

[g23]

yup, i saw some nice pics and vids of it yesterday

pretty damn epic.

 

[Draft]

Infact, it's the raiders in the 20200 men guilds that are ****ed.

Basically they've spent the whole time stroking their dicks... and while they have a lead into the xpac, it'll quickly fall away... and by the time everyone is at 70 again, they'll be on a level playing field, gear wise. Time wise... well, they're hardcore nerds, so you can't expect to ever really beat them...

but in short, the xpac was designed for guys like you and me... people that didn't like raiding in big groups.

Raiders will still be at the top of the foodchain... after all is said and done, they're still the most hardcore; the organization required for an effective guild, without it falling into disarray is phenomenal... so I give them kudos there... but most raiders are leeches off the leadership of a few in a guild.

But the gulf between those guys and non-raiders will as far as I can tell, be dramatically reduced.

holy :lol @ the casual rage. Did I accidentally click on forums.worldofwarcraft.com?

 

[civilstrife]

yup, i saw some nice pics and vids of it yesterday

pretty damn epic.

sweet!

How does it work? Are the battles of the past battlegrounds or dungeons?

 

[xabre]

I've got to say that I was really looking forward to the BC expansion.....that was before they decided to nerf Druid's new 41pt mangle talent. That came as a kick in the guts to me; here they finally give us this abilty to put out some good, solid damage relative to other classes and then they go and **** us over again. The Balance 41pter is insulting BTW. They just don't know what to do with this class.

 

[civilstrife]

This excites me to no end. I freaking love Battlegrounds, but hated the fact that I could never realistically achieve any of the good rewards without playing ALL of the time.

The fact that you can turn in the marks of honor for an epic mount makes me wet.
It gives me even more reason to play BGs. I just hope they find a way to speed up Alterac Valley a fair amount.

 

[Draft]

I've got to say that I was really looking forward to the BC expansion.....that was before they decided to nerf Druid's new 41pt mangle talent. That came as a kick in the guts to me; here they finally give us this abilty to put out some good, solid damage relative to other classes and then they go and **** us over again. The Balance 41pter is insulting BTW. They just don't know what to do with this class.

what did they do to mangle? seems like a solid talent to me.

summon trees definitely needs work, however :lol

 

[Zaptruder]

holy :lol @ the casual rage. Did I accidentally click on forums.worldofwarcraft.com?

You know... everyone keeps quoting that... but what exactly is so wrong with what I said?

It's true that with the xpack, they've gone much more in favour of non-raiders then they have of raiders. Not necessarily casual players... but the kind of play where you can call the shots (decide who to group with, when to group with, etc)... rather than having to join a regimented group of players, go through a month of trials before been rewarded with anything.

The raiders will still have the edge, definetly; coordination of groups is difficult... and it should be duly rewarded.

But it's not the only path of progression, it shouldn't be... and it looks like it isn't anymore.

Before... when I was playing, there were two paths of progression; High Warlord grind... and raiding. The former... let's just say even the most hardcore of the hardcore got sick of it. It was a horrendous design in practice... and it took away in a big way from the people that tried to achieve it.

It's a much better balance this time around; there's things to do for more player types... instead of rail roading everyone into the same play style if you still want progression, as it has done for the past 2 years.

 

[civilstrife]

You know... everyone keeps quoting that... but what exactly is so wrong with what I said?

It's true that with the xpack, they've gone much more in favour of non-raiders then they have of raiders. Not necessarily casual players... but the kind of play where you can call the shots (decide who to group with, when to group with, etc)... rather than having to join a regimented group of players, go through a month of trials before been rewarded with anything.

The raiders will still have the edge, definetly; coordination of groups is difficult... and it should be duly rewarded.

But it's not the only path of progression, it shouldn't be... and it looks like it isn't anymore.

Before... when I was playing, there were two paths of progression; High Warlord grind... and raiding. The former... let's just say even the most hardcore of the hardcore got sick of it. It was a horrendous design in practice... and it took away in a big way from the people that tried to achieve it.

It's a much better balance this time around; there's things to do for more player types... instead of rail roading everyone into the same play style if you still want progression, as it has done for the past 2 years.

Thank god for that.

I never got into it, but I would NEVER want to have to schedule my playing time for some L33t guild. Utterly Ridiculous.

Also, dkp points make me want to kill myself.
Add even more currency to grind for? BRILLIANT!

 

[EviLore]

Hardcore raiders cry, @ tier 4 being from a 10 man dungeon and arena progression not requiring you to sell your soul to /played.

Seriously though, the endgame 40 man raid mechanic (with all the guild politics that went along with it) was terrible. All I wanted to do was PVP with my rogue, but the grindtacular honor rankings thoroughly sapped any enthusiasm I had for the game. BC is looking like I'll be required to come back, since it fixes most/all of what I didn't like about the game at its level cap.

 

[ManaByte]

It gives me even more reason to play BGs. I just hope they find a way to speed up Alterac Valley a fair amount.

On my Warlock I've done AV a ton in the last three days (went from halfway into Friendly to halfway through Honored) and each match was won in at least 15 min...sometimes 20. That's pretty fast compared to what it used to be.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

Yes, there is a new start menu with a remixed version of the theme.

i wanna show my uncle some of the game but his account wont have bc on it


can I go to his house and install bc log into MY account and show him bc, but then later he can still log in to plain vanilla WoW using the BC install using his account?

 

[border]

The fact that you can turn in the marks of honor for an epic mount makes me wet.

What's the point of having Epic Mounts as a PVP reward if the Expert Riding Skill now costs
frickin' 900g? Yeah, let me just throw away 90 medals so I can save the measly cost
of the mount itself.

And why are Alliance guys selling "High Warlord's" gear?

 

[civilstrife]

On my Warlock I've done AV a ton in the last three days (went from halfway into Friendly to halfway through Honored) and each match was won in at least 15 min...sometimes 20. That's pretty fast compared to what it used to be.

Well, I haven't played since before the summer, but back then people would drop in and out of a single match that would sometimes last all day.

Haven't cross server Battlegrounds have been put into place in the meantime? How has this been working? Is it always possible to join any Battleground? I used to get so excited when an Arathi Basin session would begin on my server.

 

[Draft]

You know... everyone keeps quoting that... but what exactly is so wrong with what I said?

It's true that with the xpack, they've gone much more in favour of non-raiders then they have of raiders. Not necessarily casual players... but the kind of play where you can call the shots (decide who to group with, when to group with, etc)... rather than having to join a regimented group of players, go through a month of trials before been rewarded with anything.

The raiders will still have the edge, definetly; coordination of groups is difficult... and it should be duly rewarded.

But it's not the only path of progression, it shouldn't be... and it looks like it isn't anymore.

Before... when I was playing, there were two paths of progression; High Warlord grind... and raiding. The former... let's just say even the most hardcore of the hardcore got sick of it. It was a horrendous design in practice... and it took away in a big way from the people that tried to achieve it.

It's a much better balance this time around; there's things to do for more player types... instead of rail roading everyone into the same play style if you still want progression, as it has done for the past 2 years.

WoW has always favored the casual over the hardcore. You don't have to look any further than levels 1-59 and 3/4 to see that. And levels 61-70 will also be great for casuals, and once you get there, you're gonna have to do the raid thing, or at the very least, organized play with people you know, to progress.

I have zero problem with people who don't like to raid, or big groups, or whatever. Play the game however you choose. I do take affront at the notion that there is something wrong with raiding, or that to raid you have to be in a "l33t guild" and play 50 hours a week.

I don't understand why there is such a divide between those that enjoy to raid and those that don't. It seems pretty stupid for one group to rag on the other for how they choose to play the game. I have noticed that most of the antagonists seem to be in the non-raider camp- some of them just have it in for raiders.

 

[civilstrife]

What's the point of having Epic Mounts as a PVP reward if the Expert Riding Skill now costs
frickin' 900g? Yeah, let me just throw away 90 medals so I can save the measly cost
of the mount itself.

Isn't expert riding only necessary for the flying mounts?

 

[echoshifting]

Well, I haven't played since before the summer, but back then people would drop in and out of a single match that would sometimes last all day.

Haven't cross server Battlegrounds have been put into place in the meantime? How has this been working? Is it always possible to join any Battleground? I used to get so excited when an Arathi Basin session would begin on my server.

Cross-server BGs have been in place for awhile and they work great. In my battlegroup the wait time for any of the BGs is always less than ten minutes...even at 3AM.

 

[Pimpbaa]

WoW has always favored the casual over the hardcore. You don't have to look any further than levels 1-59 and 3/4 to see that. And levels 61-70 will also be great for casuals, and once you get there, you're gonna have to do the raid thing, or at the very least, organized play with people you know, to progress.

I have zero problem with people who don't like to raid, or big groups, or whatever. Play the game however you choose. I do take affront at the notion that there is something wrong with raiding, or that to raid you have to be in a "l33t guild" and play 50 hours a week.

I don't understand why there is such a divide between those that enjoy to raid and those that don't. It seems pretty stupid for one group to rag on the other for how they choose to play the game. I have noticed that most of the antagonists seem to be in the non-raider camp- some of them just have it in for raiders.

I think some of the hate of the raids comes from the fact that a lot of players are in guilds that don't have it together enough to do raids. Right now in my guild, it seems like to take at least a half hour or more just to get together enough for a 20 man (even playing in advance with a addon like Guild Event Manager) And this is the best guild I have been in so far. Although it may get easier as more of our guildmates get to 60.

 

[Zaptruder]

WoW has always favored the casual over the hardcore. You don't have to look any further than levels 1-59 and 3/4 to see that. And levels 61-70 will also be great for casuals, and once you get there, you're gonna have to do the raid thing, or at the very least, organized play with people you know, to progress.

I have zero problem with people who don't like to raid, or big groups, or whatever. Play the game however you choose. I do take affront at the notion that there is something wrong with raiding, or that to raid you have to be in a "l33t guild" and play 50 hours a week.

I don't understand why there is such a divide between those that enjoy to raid and those that don't. It seems pretty stupid for one group to rag on the other for how they choose to play the game. I have noticed that most of the antagonists seem to be in the non-raider camp- some of them just have it in for raiders.

Because successful raiding requires commitment to a rigid raid schedule, and forced interaction with 40 other people you may or may not like. Things get ugly when you don't like them.

It's true that towards the end, a lot of the me too raiding guilds did make decent headway into the game... but only the hardcore raiding guilds really got to see Naxx end. You might've been in one of those hardcore raiding guilds, not necessarily been that hardcore yourself... but for sure, SOMEONE in your guild had to do it... and you just rode their back like a scumsucker.

Now raiders can have their cake and eat it too; loot whores don't necessarily have to raid, and raiders don't have to put up with their shit. So loot whores win; they don't have to submit to the vagueries of raiding to get decent gear, and raiders don't have to put up with the kind of drama that people that don't necessarily enjoy raiding bring to the guild.

That's its essence. Also, in this form, you can put in the time, but over a longer period... before, with the PVP rewards system... requires intense focus for a month or three in order to achieve the best goal there... if you fall short, you just wasted a lot of time.

And the bolded part, just makes you sound like a raider centric asshat. Players weren't split into super casual that would only ever put in enough time to enjoy leveling only, and raiders who went to naxx (or whatever was latest and greatest at the time). The whole pantheon inbetween got the shaft in the way raiding game worked.

Regardless, I think even you'll agree that Blizzard has made great changes to BC... and that's for the most part what I'm saying.

 

[xabre]

what did they do to mangle? seems like a solid talent to me.

Well they nerfed it, and rather badly too. Does something like 30-40% less damage now.

We're expected to go 41pts into feral for somthing that's inferior to regular shred.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Haven't cross server Battlegrounds have been put into place in the meantime? How has this been working? Is it always possible to join any Battleground? I used to get so excited when an Arathi Basin session would begin on my server.

BGs have been working great...for the horde. I have been getting in any BG in less than a few minutes (with my horde characters), while I see alliance complaining about having longer wait times then what they did before the cross server was implemented.

 

[civilstrife]

According to this site, the current pvp mounts only require apprentice riding. If that remains the same, then you really could get an epic mount for 90 marks of honor when the expansion hits.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Well, I haven't played since before the summer, but back then people would drop in and out of a single match that would sometimes last all day.

Haven't cross server Battlegrounds have been put into place in the meantime? How has this been working? Is it always possible to join any Battleground? I used to get so excited when an Arathi Basin session would begin on my server.

It's been both good and bad; AV is faster, but often because your teammates are chickens with their heads cut off while the other side is racing thru objectives like a machine. It's wierd watching one server's "flavor" of going about a BG infect the cross server ones.

Queues for most are instant, although I've heard about some Alliance Battlegroups having extended queues for a bit longer.

 

[Draft]

Now raiders can have their cake and eat it too; loot whores don't necessarily have to raid, and raiders don't have to put up with their shit. So loot whores win; they don't have to submit to the vagueries of raiding to get decent gear, and raiders don't have to put up with the kind of drama that people that don't necessarily enjoy raiding bring to the guild.

You're still going to have to raid to get the best gear. It'll just be with 24 people you don't like instead of 39. You'll also need a decent pool of players and raid "like" organization, even if you don't plan on raiding. Instances on hard mode and Kharazan are not going to be cakewalks. Kharazan has a lock out, for instance. You don't want to be PUGing it.

fwiw, I lead my guilds raids.

No arguement on the pvp stuff. The old system sucked hard and the new one seems infinitely superior.

 

[border]

According to this site, the current pvp mounts only require apprentice riding. If that remains the same, then you really could get an epic mount for 90 marks of honor when the expansion hits.

Yeah, but you're going to have to eat that 900g sooner or later, since the Flying Mounts will most definitely require Artisan Riding (or whatever). I'd rather take the honor points that come from turning in the tokens.

It's a shame that you can't stack more than 20 Medals right now. If you could stack 30 then you'd get the Epic Mounts as soon as the Xpac arrives. I doubt that anybody is going to be interested in BGs on launch day.

 

[echoshifting]

WoW has always favored the casual over the hardcore. You don't have to look any further than levels 1-59 and 3/4 to see that. And levels 61-70 will also be great for casuals, and once you get there, you're gonna have to do the raid thing, or at the very least, organized play with people you know, to progress.

I have zero problem with people who don't like to raid, or big groups, or whatever. Play the game however you choose. I do take affront at the notion that there is something wrong with raiding, or that to raid you have to be in a "l33t guild" and play 50 hours a week.

I don't understand why there is such a divide between those that enjoy to raid and those that don't. It seems pretty stupid for one group to rag on the other for how they choose to play the game. I have noticed that most of the antagonists seem to be in the non-raider camp- some of them just have it in for raiders.

I don't really agree with this at all. The game has been out for two years now and over the past year all of the new content has favored raiders, to the point that most of my friends on my server, who never wanted to raid, have gone on to pursue it because it was pretty much the only remaining avenue to advance their character and see new stuff. Heck, I did it myself, and yeah, I hated it.

You're showing your bias by saying that most of the antagonism lately comes from non-raiders, which simply isn't true. Both 'sides' have a great deal of enmity for the other and have been showing it in a variety of ways since AQ was announced. I couldn't count the number of times I've seen a raider tell a person who doesn't want to raid or can't find a raid group that they should just shut up and quit the game. So, don't try to paint one side or the other in a bad light; both have people who like to jump on any opportunity they can find to attack or make fun of the 'other team.' The nonraider side just happens to have more ammunition at the moment.

The problem is that, over the past year, Blizzard has really provided greater support for the player who is obsessed with the 40-man raid to the point of playing the game a number of hours per week that can only be described as unhealthy. I guarantee you that virtually all of the raiders who will have actually completed Naxxramas before it becomes obsolete (ie, when the expansion comes out) play World of Warcraft a truly disgusting number of hours per week. It's frustrating to those of us with lives to see Blizzard support these play habits with new content while the rest of us are left to grind the same crap for shitty loot over and over and over and over.

All non-raiders ever wanted - let's throw out the word 'casual' because it's a really a matter of raid gamer vs. non-raid gamer - is MEANINGFUL character advancement on par with what raiders get, even if they have to earn it at a slower rate of speed than the raiders do, and Burning Crusade looks to do that. The original game did not. There's no way around it. There is no comparison between Tier 1 - or, for that matter, Tier 3 - and the Dungeon 1 set that was available to the nonraid gamer. It seems to me that Blizzard has really learned their lessen here. Hopefully the disparity between the 10-man set (Tier 4) and the 25-man set (Tier 5, presumably) will be more like the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2; a significant upgrade, yes, but a skilled player in Tier 1 would be a good match for a player in Tier 2. We have yet to know that for certain. Of course by the time casual-minded, nonraid gamers acquire all of their Tier 4 pieces and start to pine after Tier 5, the next expansion will probably be out, so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Draft]

Well they nerfed it, and rather badly too. Does something like 30-40% less damage now.

We're expected to go 41pts into feral for somthing that's inferior to regular shred.

you seriously think its inferior? I don't play a druid, but I think a move that costs 15 less energy, can be used in front of the target (ie- not just as an opener) and has a bleed effect is pretty good. If it did more damage than shred you would never even use shred.

 

[border]

The problem is that, over the past year, Blizzard has really provided greater support for the player who is obsessed with the 40-man raid to the point of playing the game a number of hours per week that can only be described as unhealthy.

Raiding doesn't necessarily take an "unhealthy" number of hours every week -- this seems to be the casuals' misconception (I say this as a casual). It just takes a strict schedule....which is worse IMO. I have a friend who will forego invitations to hang out on Friday/Saturday nights if he's already signed up for Naxx or AQ. That's what's really kinda sad. As much time as I've put into the game, I've never had to say "No" to somebody I wanted to say "Yes" to because of some obligation.

PVP Grind is what really takes an unhealthy number of hours.

 

[Draft]

i usually hate breaking up someones post to address point by point, but it's getting late. apologies

I don't really agree with this at all. The game has been out for two years now and over the past year all of the new content has favored raiders, to the point that most of my friends on my server, who never wanted to raid, have gone on to pursue it because it was pretty much the only remaining avenue to advance their character and see new stuff. Heck, I did it myself, and yeah, I hated it.

that is true, but you have to also admit that all of the content the game shipped with was very, very casual friendly. WoW at launch had one raid zone, and a pretty boring one at that. It now has 4. Compare that to Dire Maul, LBRS, UBRS, Strat, Scholo, ZG and AQ20, and I think you'll find a decent balance between raiding and non-raiding.

You're showing your bias by saying that most of the antagonism lately comes from non-raiders, which simply isn't true. Both 'sides' have a great deal of enmity for the other and have been showing it in a variety of ways since AQ was announced. I couldn't count the number of times I've seen a raider tell a person who doesn't want to raid or can't find a raid group that they should just shut up and quit the game. So, don't try to paint one side or the other in a bad light; both have people who like to jump on any opportunity they can find to attack or make fun of the 'other team.' The nonraider side just happens to have more ammunition at the moment.

I have always thought most of the animosity comes from non-raiders who want raid level gear without actually going on a raid. I've always thought that was a pretty silly concept, because raid gear only exists to help raiding- you get your tier 1 to go to the tier 2 dungeon, get your tier 2 to get tier 2.5, etc. etc. Obviously the big problem there is PvP, and they tried to address that with PvP gear, but their PvP progression system was broken and in need of a fix, which TBC will provide.

The problem is that, over the past year, Blizzard has really provided greater support for the player who is obsessed with the 40-man raid to the point of playing the game a number of hours per week that can only be described as unhealthy. I guarantee you that virtually all of the raiders who will have actually completed Naxxramas before it becomes obsolete (ie, when the expansion comes out) play World of Warcraft a truly disgusting number of hours per week. It's frustrating to those of us with lives to see Blizzard support these play habits with new content while the rest of us are left to grind the same crap for shitty loot over and over and over and over.

All non-raiders ever wanted - let's throw out the word 'casual' because it's a really a matter of raid gamer vs. non-raid gamer - is MEANINGFUL character advancement on par with what raiders get, even if they have to earn it at a slower rate of speed than the raiders do, and Burning Crusade looks to do that. The original game did not. There's no way around it. There is no comparison between Tier 1 - or, for that matter, Tier 3 - and the Dungeon 1 set that was available to the nonraid gamer. It seems to me that Blizzard has really learned their lessen here. Hopefully the disparity between the 10-man set (Tier 4) and the 25-man set (Tier 5, presumably) will be more like the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2; a significant upgrade, yes, but a skilled player in Tier 1 would be a good match for a player in Tier 2. We have yet to know that for certain. Of course by the time casual-minded, nonraid gamers acquire all of their Tier 4 pieces and start to pine after Tier 5, the next expansion will probably be out, so it doesn't really matter.

It's a classic style MMO. Raiding is going to be apart of the end-game. It's dumb to fight over that point, because it is what it is. If that's not what you're looking for in a game, you probably should move on, because WoW is going to continue to dissapoint you. By the by, parts of tier 4 are going to drop in Kharazan, and other parts are going to drop in the 25 man raids. You are going to have to enter all of them if completing the set is your goal. Which of course makes sense, when you consider Kharazan is a raid, complete with a lockout timer, and I would assume, boss encounters that are going to require a level of coordination not available to your average 5 man PUG.

 

[echoshifting]

Raiding doesn't necessarily take an "unhealthy" number of hours every week -- this seems to be the casuals' misconception (I say this as a casual). It just takes a strict schedule....which is worse IMO. I have a friend who will forego invitations to hang out on Friday/Saturday nights if he's already signed up for Naxx or AQ. That's what's really kinda sad. As much time as I've put into the game, I've never had to say "No" to somebody I wanted to say "Yes" too because of some obligation.

PVP Grind is what really takes an unhealthy number of hours.

I would argue that it's both. Most of the guilds I am aware of who have made significant progress in Naxxramas raid between four and six nights a week for at least four hours at a setting, to say nothing of the number of hours several members of their group must commit to farming in order for the group to be successful. And yes, the raids are always during prime time hours when people could be, you know, going out and doing things, spending time with their families, etc.

I was in a 4-night-a-week guild for a couple of months and I can attest to how bad that can be for your life. I went to a 3-night-a-week guild and even that was too much for me, although for someone who really enjoys raiding, I think you could pull that kind of schedule and still lead a pretty balanced life. That guild will still be midway through AQ when the expansion hits. Right now I'm in a guild with 2 optional raids a week, which for me is about right...but of course there's no way a guild like that could ever do Naxxramas with appropriately leveled characters.

 

[Alex]

They really busted their ass on this expansion. Kudos to pretty much fixing 9/10ths of the problems in the game, adding a metric ton of content and making most classes more enjoyable to play.

My Warlock will be so ridiculously fun now. Proper DoT/Drain scaling, increased base drain range, largely scaling pets, Affliction and Demonology trees that don't revolve around pissing talent points away, a good AoE skill for raids, revamped Fire and Spellstones and a proper Firelock nuke, and that's just scraping the tip of the iceberg.

Don't really care if you dont like Fear or not, Warlocks needed a ton of changes and revamps, and they got just about everything I can think of redone and more.

...Soulfire scaling should be turned down though >_> I'm afraid to even see what Pyroblast with both crit talents from Arcane and Fire will do.

Although with the way melee will scale compared to us, it probably needs it in the end, health hike or not.

Arenas and BGs are different from each other, lots of different rules apply. I am a little miffed about the arena requirements though. Unless you're on a team roster (for example, a 5 vs 5 bracket Arena team needs 10 people on board), you will not earn arena points.

But that's not really a big problem I guess.

Arena gear will be on par with the raid gear, BG gear a step below.

Arenas matchup is versus win loss ratio, BGs on premade/pug and gear. Which really interests me, I like playing in a premade, but I dont do it to steamroll people.

My biggest hope for the expansion is more quality dungeon designs ala Naxxramas and all they learned from it, and more equal footing and matchups. I dont take pride in picking on people, myself, even as a Warlock.

 

[Grecco]

According to this site, the current pvp mounts only require apprentice riding. If that remains the same, then you really could get an epic mount for 90 marks of honor when the expansion hits.

actually its a mistake pvp mounts will require 150 riding in the expansion.. so no saving money

 

[M74]

So, the first pictures of the tier 4 sets are floating around. Is it true that there are actually three separate tier 4 sets for each class, each one specializing in one of the three talent trees? And if so, do all three sets within a class' tier 4 look the same or do they vary?

 

[Alex]

So, the first pictures of the tier 4 sets are floating around. Is it true that there are actually three separate tier 4 sets for each class, each one specializing in one of the three talent trees? And if so, do all three sets within a class' tier 4 look the same or do they vary?

I'm not sure if there are 3 for each class, but the key classes that need multiple sets will have the option.

Dunno about apperance, doubt it though.

 

[border]

I would argue that it's both. Most of the guilds I am aware of who have made significant progress in Naxxramas raid between four and six nights a week for at least four hours at a setting, to say nothing of the number of hours several members of their group must commit to farming in order for the group to be successful. And yes, the raids are always during prime time hours when people could be, you know, going out and doing things, spending time with their families, etc.

Yeah, but Bleeding Edge raiding will always require a ton of commitment. The reason Naxx requires so much commitment right now is because people are trying to blaze through it so quickly.....their guild isn't decked out yet because they're only getting a handful of Naxx-quality items every week and they've gotta outfit 40 people with that stuff. To get around this problem, they're burning all their time/money on consumables that make up for not having the right gear.

I guess we'll never know since BC will be upon us sooner or later and people will give up on Naxx, but I bet you'd see more "casual" Naxx raiding in 5-6 months from now once more groups have the hang of it.

 

[echoshifting]

i usually hate breaking up someones post to address point by point, but it's getting late. apologies

No apology necessary, I do that all the time! And hey it was a long post. Case in point...

that is true, but you have to also admit that all of the content the game shipped with was very, very casual friendly. WoW at launch had one raid zone, and a pretty boring one at that. It now has 4. Compare that to Dire Maul, LBRS, UBRS, Strat, Scholo, ZG and AQ20, and I think you'll find a decent balance between raiding and non-raiding.

Well, first of all, by your own arguments, Zul'Gurub and AQ20 are raid dungeons. They aren't accessible to the kinds of casual, non-raider groups you've been talking about. However, if they had offered gear that was comparable at all to Tier 1, I don't think people would have been as frustrated at Blizzard's commitment to raiders.

I have always thought most of the animosity comes from non-raiders who want raid level gear without actually going on a raid. I've always thought that was a pretty silly concept, because raid gear only exists to help raiding- you get your tier 1 to go to the tier 2 dungeon, get your tier 2 to get tier 2.5, etc. etc. Obviously the big problem there is PvP, and they tried to address that with PvP gear, but their PvP progression system was broken and in need of a fix, which TBC will provide.

Yeah, you said it yourself: PvP is the big problem, although I would still argue that nonraiders have good reasons for wanting that kind of gear beyond just PvP. I certainly have a much easier time farming Tyr's Hand decked out in BWL gear than I ever did in blue gear...

Besides which, it just looks cooler!

(On another note, it's not really about the gear, either. Most nonraid gamers simply want new stuff to see and do).

It's a classic style MMO. Raiding is going to be apart of the end-game. It's dumb to fight over that point, because it is what it is. If that's not what you're looking for in a game, you probably should move on, because WoW is going to continue to dissapoint you. By the by, parts of tier 4 are going to drop in Kharazan, and other parts are going to drop in the 25 man raids. You are going to have to enter all of them if completing the set is your goal. Which of course makes sense, when you consider Kharazan is a raid, complete with a lockout timer, and I would assume, boss encounters that are going to require a level of coordination not available to your average 5 man PUG.

Actually, Kalgan (or maybe Tseric?) said last week that Tier 4 could be completed in Kharazan and one other dungeon. He didn't specify the size, but since there are 3 25-man raid centerpieces and a full 25-man raid dungeon, I think it's safe to say there will be a good deal of raid-only gear in BC that will be superior to Tier 4. I do agree with the sentiment that Kharazan will not be accessible to PUGs, and I think that's fine. I would take umbrage with the sentiment that nonraiders 'can't do it' because they lack the coordination or skill of raid groups. I'm sorry, I've been to all of the game's raid dungeons except Naxx, and they can only make these encounters so hard. I think if you take the attitude that casual, nonraider players won't be able to get that set, you are adopting the elitist raider attitude that inspires the anger from nonraiders you complained about earlier.

I would also take issue with the idea that 'raiding is the standard MMO endgame, no use fighting it...' etc. Yes, difficult, large-group encounters need to be a part of the endgame by necessity, but exactly what 'difficult' and 'large-group' means varies widely from player to player. Furthermore, the more a game's content is focused on those who are more able to put an insane number of hours into the game, the more likely it is the game will eventually collapse in on itself...especially a game like WoW. It's hard to compare what WoW's endgame 'needs' to look like to, say, EQ or DAoC, because the playerbase is so completely different. For one, it's much, much larger, and for another, it has different needs to keep it healthy. You can't just say 'this is the way it was in these other games, so this is the way it should be in WoW' and just hope all those pesky players who don't want to fit into that mold will eventually go away. So far they haven't, and I don't expect that to change.

I'm wordy tonight, aren't I?

 

[xabre]

you seriously think its inferior? I don't play a druid, but I think a move that costs 15 less energy, can be used in front of the target (ie- not just as an opener) and has a bleed effect is pretty good. If it did more damage than shred you would never even use shred.

The only reason it wouldn't be inferior is for the +25% bleed effect, other than that it's just an upgraded claw. For a 41pt talent we should be getting better.

 

[border]

Raiding is going to be apart of the end-game.

Problem is that aside from the utterly stupid PVP grind, it was pretty much the only part of the end-game. Yeah, you could endlessly grind UBRS/Scholo/Strat for inferior Tier 0 or Tier .5 gear, but that's just raiding on a smaller scale IMO.

 

[Alex]

I will probably reroll for BC though, and just play my Warlock as a side project. I'd like to go Blood Elf, get the hell off of Alliance.

I'd also like to do a PvP server. Oh man the PvP objectives in Outland sounds sooo good. Especially the neutral town. Very Warcrafty.

 

[fallout]

I'd rather take the honor points that come from turning in the tokens.

:lol It's funny ... I've already got an epic mount and I'm excited about this because I've always wanted one of those black war kodos.

 

[Alex]

Good gosh Silvermoon looks so stunning, gorgeous artistry.

And the music is just a knockout, extreme polish for the win!

http://pwncone.com/envy/Music/ES_SilvermoonIntro01.mp3

Edit; ah, it's the Naxxramas composer, the guy who also did Fable, no wonder its so pretty.

 

[Zaptruder]

The only reason it wouldn't be inferior is for the +25% bleed effect, other than that it's just an upgraded claw. For a 41pt talent we should be getting better.

Hunters have a similarly lame talent at their 41 pt for marksmanship...

but you know, it's not that bad; because it's a unique talent in addition to everything else... so having it means been able to do damage every rotation that no other hunter would be able to do.

Plus its 3 seconds of silence/counterspelling. Good for catching bastard healers off guard.

 

[g23]

Good gosh Silvermoon looks so stunning, gorgeous artistry.

And the music is just a knockout, extreme polish for the win!

http://pwncone.com/envy/Music/ES_SilvermoonIntro01.mp3

Edit; ah, it's the Naxxramas composer, the guy who also did Fable, no wonder its so pretty.

Can you tell me a site where I can find all the WoW zone music. Especially the Naxx/AQ stuff because i'll prolly never get to those areas

Thanks.