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[Mowcno]

40-60 dollars for an exapnsion and the price of a five guys meal per month for minimal intrusive MTX/pay to win BS and constant massive updates every 3-4 months? I much prefer MMORPGs that are sub-only versus F2P with a sub offer.

The issue is that WoW is just... *bad*. Its been that way for years and, while I was hopeful that Christ Metzen would have cleaned up the current WoW team, I don't think that is the case.

Yeah I don't have an issue with subscribe to play and it does cut out some of the BS that infects F2P models. I'm more just reflecting on the standard MMORPG business model of the 2000's seeming so weird to me now. Paying over $150 a year and not getting the expansions lumped in.

It'd be like paying a netflix sub and then them asking you to pay $10 ontop to get access to the new season of stranger things etc.

Subs just immediately giving you access to everything just makes more sense to my brain in the modern world.

 

[Faust]

Yeah I don't have an issue with subscribe to play and it does cut out some of the BS that infects F2P models. I'm more just reflecting on the standard MMORPG business model of the 2000's seeming so weird to me now. Paying over $150 a year and not getting the expansions lumped in.

It'd be like paying a netflix sub and then them asking you to pay $10 ontop to get access to the new season of stranger things etc.

Subs just immediately giving you access to everything just makes more sense to my brain in the modern world.

Understandable. I do think that a new expansion purchase should come with at least 1 month of playtime free. Seems a bit silly it doesn't.

 

[Mossybrew]

The rest of us will probably be dead or fighting in WW3, and that's if the world doesn't end with nukes.

Meh, I don't buy this doomer mindset any more than I did when I was a kid in the 80's, but that's a topic for a different thread.

 

[Krappadizzle]

The issue is that WoW is just... *bad*. Its been that way for years and, while I was hopeful that Christ Metzen would have cleaned up the current WoW team, I don't think that is the case.

Bad is a bit histrionic. Inoffensively boring is how I would describe it. It's too bloated and has no vision. It's been a problem for a long time and the pressure of having to release expansion after expansion because of the nature of the locusts that are the consumers, it's just never gonna be as good as it was.

They(Blizzard) are just too big, with too much money at stake, that to do what they need to do is nearly impossible.

 

[iamvin22]

all they needed to do was use the same trailer and call it wow 2

There's really no way they can do a wow 2.the amount of investment legacy players have put into this game up till now is just to much.

Unless they figure out a way to bring their characters over and not start at level 1

 

[Arsic]

I’ve gotten MORE into WoW ever since they did the graphics overhaul near BFA.

This game on max settings looks infinitely better than ffxiv which looks like a ps3 game through and through.

The water reflections alone shit on any other mmo visually.

 

[Ozzie666]

The question will be are the expansions the same size as previous ones, or will there be even more expansion shrinkgate. Charge you for 3 expansions, with much less content across the board.

 

[ManaByte]

Understandable. I do think that a new expansion purchase should come with at least 1 month of playtime free. Seems a bit silly it doesn't.

The $90 epic edition does.

 

[BootsLoader]

Wow, I forgot about WoW.
Still exists?

 

[Mortisfacio]

The $90 epic edition does.

I bought the $90 edition + 1 year sub + legendary blizzcon pack. I'm a sucker.

 

[ManaByte]

I bought the $90 edition + 1 year sub + legendary blizzcon pack. I'm a sucker.

 

[adamsapple]

all they needed to do was use the same trailer and call it wow 2

Never happening.

Even FF 14 is getting a complete engine overhaul with new content instead of releasing a new game.

 

[Faust]

Never happening.

Even FF 14 is getting a complete engine overhaul with new content instead of releasing a new game.

FFXIV has legs and is continuing to grow. Hence why they are doing an engine overhaul. When things start to dip, Square will make a new MMO, if they don’t already have one in the works.

 

[jcorb]

I'd like to say I was more optimistic for WoW's future, and lord knows I have a ton of respect for Chris Metzen, but I wasn't left with the best impression.

What I *do* think worked, was actually the "three expansion announcement". Metzen seemed to imply these would come out *considerably* more often, so at one expansion a year, I could see that being a good cadence *if* they can keep it up.

WoW's biggest issue, within its own community at least, is that the "story" has been hot, inconsistent trash since BFA launched. So announcing "hey, we have a legitimate *vision* for the story" will hopefully spark a little more enthusiasm. After just a week or two ago, one of the devs mentioned the writers basically don't tell anyone "no" when it comes to their ideas, really makes it sound like there's a complete lack of quality-control, and hopefully they can tighten up the process.

Announcing an expansion that takes place predominantly underground is probably not going to be super appealing, but some of the environments looked kind of cool. Really dig the whole vibe of the "Arathi" they showed up.

Overall, it really feels like a D&D module, which is certainly less ambitious than a traditional expansion, but might be a better fit for WoW anymore. Seemed like a lot of the focus on the reveal was on world-building, which I think has a lot of value.

But there were virtually zero compelling new features announced. The "Warbands" sound like they could be kind of interesting, but definitely not a core feature. The "Earthen" are pretty weak, even as an Allied Race, and absolutely nobody is going to pick up the expansion for them. With no new races or classes, I think the expansion is already at a huge disadvantage.

I think either this expansion needs to be *very* cheap, or Blizzard announces that they're shutting down the cash-shop and putting more focus to in-game unlockables. Barring either of those, I think this is going to be a hard fucking sell for most people.

Ultimately, WoW needs something to be "HYPED" about, and this shit ain't it. Not to say it looks *bad*, by any means. But nothing about it is going to get people pumped.

 

[ManaByte]

The "Warbands" sound like they could be kind of interesting, but definitely not a core feature

It’s literally something people have been asking for since at least Cataclysm. So over a decade.

 

[BadBurger]

I guess they must still have a lot of players if they're planning out three expansions. The last time I played was because a friend asked me to join him and his wife for the latest expansion. It was really boring and dated. That engine is so old that the way they need to jury rig things to do basic stuff makes it so janky and weird. Some of the textures and effects look OK, particularly for character models and mounts, and other times it looks like a child's game for the iPad.

Good luck to them though. Now that they have that Microsoft umbrella money I hope they can hire some better and more ambitious designers to push things forward.

 

[jcorb]

It’s literally something people have been asking for since at least Cataclysm. So over a decade.

Definitely sounds promising, don't get me wrong. I'm particularly interested in that as they mentioned Warbands, they showed a group of characters running what looked to be a dungeon, so perhaps they'll allow you to use your alts as AI companions?

But still, a cool addition doesn't necessarily equate to a box-selling feature.

 

[ManaByte]

Definitely sounds promising, don't get me wrong. I'm particularly interested in that as they mentioned Warbands, they showed a group of characters running what looked to be a dungeon, so perhaps they'll allow you to use your alts as AI companions?

But still, a cool addition doesn't necessarily equate to a box-selling feature.

That’s not it. It’s basically everything like reputation, banks, etc being shared account wide across your alts. It’s a huge deal which is why it got the biggest reaction of anything they showed.

 

[Aces High]

I dunno I just can't imagine anyone still playing this game 20 years later.

I resubbed last month to check out how things are going in WoW.

Servers are packed.

Doesn't matter if you want to play Dragonflight, Classic Vanilla, or Hardcore, there's more people online than I've ever seen. I didn't check Lich King, though.

Blizzard lets everyone play together in the same world independent from the realm a character was made on. So even if your realm population is shown as low, there are players everywhere.

Hardcore Classic is amazing. If your character dies, you can't resurrect on the hardcore server. You can either live on as a ghost on the hardcore server or transfer the char to a regular classic server for free to resurrect there. This makes raiding pretty intense.

WoW streamers made a tournament on hardcore servers this week where they dueled to death with their level 60 characters. Lose the duel = your character is gone.



Normal classic servers are a laid-back and very social experience. It still feels much more like an mmorpg than every other mmo game that came after it and than every wow expansion. Most players I met didn't even play the game back in 2005. Some of them weren't even born in 2005. You will need a lot of gold in classic, though as everything works with Gold Dragon Kill Points (GDKP).

I checked out Dragonflight as well and so far I like it. Dragon riding is awesome. Gameplay has become pretty complex, though. Combat is much faster than classic and I need macros to keep up with the amount of abilities.

I recommend starting a fresh level 1 character instead of using the level 60 boost to learn the new mechanics. Leveling to 70 is super fast.

There's a catch-up mechanic in Dragonflight called dreamsurge that gives you epic gear pretty fast as soon as you hit maxlevel. Game world is packed. My framerate drops pretty hard when I visit the new city because there are so many players.

Playing WoW back in 2005 is my all-time favorite gaming experience. I usually resub for three months during phases of high real-life stress. For me, casually playing WoW is the best anti-depressant. Works every time.

 

[Faust]

I resubbed last month to check out how things are going in WoW.

Servers are packed.

Doesn't matter if you want to play Dragonflight, Classic Vanilla, or Hardcore, there's more people online than I've ever seen. I didn't check Lich King, though.

Blizzard lets everyone play together in the same world independent from the realm a character was made on. So even if your realm population is shown as low, there are players everywhere.

The servers aren't that packed though. There has been more than enough number crunching by the community and reported on by big names to show that the numbers for DF are pretty abysmal. There are more players playing the classic servers than there are on retail.

We are not even close of the number of players of peak Vanilla (let alone Wrath), so I am not sure where you started playing that this is the "most people online than you have ever seen".

Hardcore Classic is amazing. If your character dies, you can't resurrect on the hardcore server. You can either live on as a ghost on the hardcore server or transfer the char to a regular classic server for free to resurrect there. This makes raiding pretty intense.

WoW streamers made a tournament on hardcore servers this week where they dueled to death with their level 60 characters. Lose the duel = your character is gone.

Hardcore Classic is a fun novelty, but it wears off when you are replaying Classic for the 7th character in a row. The difficulty really only appears in the raids. So it is primarily the traditional Classic experience until you reach past Molten Core. Unless you are a new player where you may struggle a bit more.

Normal classic servers are a laid-back and very social experience. It still feels much more like an mmorpg than every other mmo game that came after it and than every wow expansion. Most players I met didn't even play the game back in 2005. Some of them weren't even born in 2005. You will need a lot of gold in classic, though as everything works with Gold Dragon Kill Points (GDKP).

I would say it is about as social as FFXIV is nowadays, but nowhere near as social as it was back in its heyday. Everything in Classic has been figured out for nearly two decades now so the learning, growth, and building of the knowledge base (and years of theory crafting) have muted the sociability a tad. Still better than Retail by miles though.

I checked out Dragonflight as well and so far I like it. Dragon riding is awesome. Gameplay has become pretty complex, though. Combat is much faster than classic and I need macros to keep up with the amount of abilities.

I recommend starting a fresh level 1 character instead of using the level 60 boost to learn the new mechanics. Leveling to 70 is super fast.

There's a catch-up mechanic in Dragonflight called dreamsurge that gives you epic gear pretty fast as soon as you hit maxlevel. Game world is packed. My framerate drops pretty hard when I visit the new city because there are so many players.

The framerate drops not because of players, but due to poor optimization. I run a 4090 and i9 and still get framedrops even during dead hours.

Playing WoW back in 2005 is my all-time favorite gaming experience. I usually resub for three months during phases of high real-life stress. For me, casually playing WoW is the best anti-depressant. Works every time.

This is how I feel as well, though I primarily play through custom servers these days. I do sub to retail to try the new exapnsions/content, but usually drop it quickly after. Primarily only resubbing if I feel nostalgic and want to slowly walk through the good old days of AQ, Mara, Kara, etc.

 

[Silver Wattle]

I was disappointed with the reveals, retail WoW is dead, the story, world and gameplay are just a mess, completely unfixable and classic is about to run out of life since they are in the final phase of Wrath content, they didn't announce classic+(vanilla but additional content/improvements like OSRS) and instead announced some bastardized version of vanilla classic called season of discovery.
The games dead.

 

[WitchHunter]

Worldsoul... how creative. They throwing more crack cocaine to the addicts. Come people, throw away your life, play wow.

 

[Aces High]

The servers aren't that packed though. There has been more than enough number crunching by the community and reported on by big names to show that the numbers for DF are pretty abysmal. There are more players playing the classic servers than there are on retail.

We are not even close of the number of players of peak Vanilla (let alone Wrath), so I am not sure where you started playing that this is the "most people online than you have ever seen".

Yeah, it's all smoke and mirrors due to the modern server tech Blizzard is using, but it works.

Back in the days, you've had tons of realms and probably more than 50% of them were empty. The big part of the playerbase were distributed over several well-populated realms.

Today, you have 90% empty realms but the active playerbase all share the same online game world in their region.

For me as a player, the modern system is of course the better one. I don't care how many active players the game has if I can't interact with 99% of them.

I also see the lower player counts as an advantage for the developing team. WoW became too popular. The playerbase became too heterogenous. No matter what Blizzard did, somewhere someone always was unhappy with it.

MMORPGs can create very high involvement. I don't let that happen anymore. I'm at a stage in my life where I can't afford to play a game to the point of addiction because of my real-life responsibilities.

So even if they do a WoW2 and they make it as addictive as the first one, it will never be the same because I'm a different person. I play WoW completely differently than back in the days. If I don't like my class, I play a different one. If I don't like the game, I play a different one. I hop in and out. I'm a tourist. I know people who do the same. And I think devs understand that a lot of people are doing this.

 

[BadBurger]

We are not even close of the number of players of peak Vanilla (let alone Wrath), so I am not sure where you started playing that this is the "most people online than you have ever seen".

Could be they happened to have been playing in very active zoning sessions at the time, making it seem like a ton of people were online because it included players from numerous realms.

But yea, I remember the days prior to zoning when it would lag in Stormwind or Ironforge because there was literally thousands of people there at the time. Last I played, one would have been lucky to see more than 50 other players in any city outside of the latest expansions chosen hub at the time.

 

[Robb]

I guess they must be pulling some huge numbers still if they’ve got three expansions out of the gate like this.

Haven’t played it since WotLK back in 2008(?).

It’s nice to see that the CG trailers are still quality though.

 

[Aces High]

The games dead.

People keep saying this for almost 20 years. I said it countless times myself.

It was never true and every time I jump back in after years of abscence, I'm always happy that it's still there.

 

[LukeAJN]

Been a long time since I've played an MMO and now I can only think how crazy it is that you are expected to pay $15 a month and when they drop expansions you're expected to pay for them too. Seems like a mad practice in 2023. This and FFXIV both still do it, not sure any others do.

And they both happen to be the two biggest MMOs on the market, the subscription business model could be the very reason for that.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Never happening.

Even FF 14 is getting a complete engine overhaul with new content instead of releasing a new game.

They need to overhaul their netcode and definitely fix their legacy code. Graphics overhaul doesn't mean much to me. If it doesn't make the game play better then it isn't an upgrade.

L LukeAJN It's not so much the subscription model or expansions that make the most money but the Cash Shop with glamour/transmog, mounts, WoW Token/Level Jump potions that make both MMOs a lot of money. Probably WoW Tokens and Fantasia Potions for each one.

 

[RJMacready73]

God I wish I could recreate that feeling of playing WOW classic back in the day, a real proper sense of experiencing something new with people, exploring an incredibly detailed and rich world and meeting random people and forming groups, then guilds and doing some actual fucking adventuring.. good times, has there ever been another game like wow that has captured that lightning in a bottle? I can't recall tbh...

Also I see Blizzard's cinematic team are still amongst the best in the business, there where some scenes in that that where incredibly lifelike, wish they'd make another WOW movie tbf

 

[davz]

There's really no way they can do a wow 2.the amount of investment legacy players have put into this game up till now is just to much.

Unless they figure out a way to bring their characters over and not start at level 1

 

[RoboFu]

They need a new wow. Everyone would love to start from zero with a brand new world.

 

[Krappadizzle]

I’ve gotten MORE into WoW ever since they did the graphics overhaul near BFA.

This game on max settings looks infinitely better than ffxiv which looks like a ps3 game through and through.

The water reflections alone shit on any other mmo visually.

I think that WoW still looks pretty good in-spite of it's underlying graphical tech because it's art direction is so strong and consistently coherent. It all looks like it all belongs together for the most part. Blizzards art dept. has been holding Blizzard together for a long time.

 

[Gavon West]

Blizzard has announced new three major expansions at Blizzcon 2023, which will be part of a major Saga called WorldSoul:

The First Expansion (War Within) Releases in 2024. Pre-Purchase rewards include 3 days early access to the expansion for buying the heroic edition.

• The War Within
• Midnight
• The Last Titan

​

Never played WoW but that cinematic was legit reDONKulous!

 

[Dirk Benedict]

You cheap Fuckers it's less than a Meal at 5 guys.

Pfft. People keep praising that place. I could show you burgers at a much higher tier. Burgers that will having your insides singing tunes of pure joy and equilibrium.
Burgers that bring world peace, but people are too stubborn to accept their terms.

 

[Flutta]

 

[ManaByte]

They need a new wow. Everyone would love to start from zero with a brand new world.

Again, EQ2 shows that's not true at all. Even Classic shows it's not true. There might be a small number of people who want to completely restart, but with people who have characters they've been playing for TWENTY YEARS, they're not going to move to a new game just with prettier graphics.

 

[RoboFu]

Again, EQ2 shows that's not true at all. Even Classic shows it's not true. There might be a small number of people who want to completely restart, but with people who have characters they've been playing for TWENTY YEARS, they're not going to move to a new game just with prettier graphics.

EQ2 had ALOT of issues when it was released and it was completely different from EQ1.

 

[ManaByte]

EQ2 had ALOT of issues when it was released and it was completely different from EQ1.

I worked there during the EQ2 launch and the #1 issue the game had was with players not wanting to leave behind their EQ1 characters that they spent 5 years leveling. They tried to lure them with stuff like titles that would reference their EQ1 characters, but it didn't work. I also think that is one of the big design problems EQ Next ran into because by the time that would've released they would've had people with a decade of time committed to their characters. If you listened to the WoW devs during BlizzCon the big thing they're doing with the next three expansions are core upgrades that "respect your time behind the keyboard". Releasing a new game that wipes out 20 years of advancement on a character is the complete opposite of that. It's not going to happen. They'll keep upgrading the graphical engine (it got RT shadows with Shadowlands), but there won't be a sequel game.

 

[CuNi]

God I wish I could recreate that feeling of playing WOW classic back in the day, a real proper sense of experiencing something new with people, exploring an incredibly detailed and rich world and meeting random people and forming groups, then guilds and doing some actual fucking adventuring.. good times, has there ever been another game like wow that has captured that lightning in a bottle? I can't recall tbh...

Also I see Blizzard's cinematic team are still amongst the best in the business, there where some scenes in that that where incredibly lifelike, wish they'd make another WOW movie tbf

My biggest issue with the movie was that it had real humans.
It was the uncanny valley in reverse. Since everything was animated except the Humans (and Garona) they looked so out of place.
A full CGI movie is what I've been wishing for since forever.

 

[Aces High]

For me, Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms are the true world of Warcraft.

These continents feel like an organic part of the game world while everything else just feels added.

They have these iconic continents that players love, but they don't use it. Everything they need is right in front of them, but they keep adding throwaway content instead of giving back purpose to the original game world.

Instead of WoW2 we need a full reset of Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms with Dragonflight+ graphics and dynamic content that changes with every new expansion.

Like a reverse cataclysm.

 

[DeceptiveAlarm]

Pfft. People keep praising that place. I could show you burgers at a much higher tier. Burgers that will having your insides singing tunes of pure joy and equilibrium.
Burgers that bring world peace, but people are too stubborn to accept their terms.

I agree. 5 guys is over rated. It's at most the best fast food.

 

[Dirk Benedict]

I agree. 5 guys is over rated. It's at most the best fast food.

I've tried 3 different ones in my area. All subpar. Pile of meat slapped together with cheese. Please. While this world still stands, I will require nothing less than a pillar of perfectly selected toppings, dressing the high quality beef patty in a way that does not overpower, but accentuates the protein in ways that only a palate of experience, culture and depravity could describe.

 

[Musashipan]

only good thing Blizzard can still do is their cgs!
Best ones ever!

 

[ManaByte]

For me, Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms are the true world of Warcraft.

These continents feel like an organic part of the game world while everything else just feels added.

They have these iconic continents that players love, but they don't use it. Everything they need is right in front of them, but they keep adding throwaway content instead of giving back purpose to the original game world.

Instead of WoW2 we need a full reset of Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms with Dragonflight+ graphics and dynamic content that changes with every new expansion.

Like a reverse cataclysm.

The Dragon Isles are AWESOME. Best zones in the game in a LONG time.

 

[ManaByte]

Ok after watching the deep dive, these three expansions ARE "WoW 2". They're changing how the game is going forward in major ways.

Servers don't mean anything with your alts anymore. They can all be displayed on the screen when you login regardless where they are.

There are cross-realm cross-faction guilds now.

Dragonriding is the new flying going forward.

 

[Diddy X]

5 million subscribers, the game is far from dying.

 

[Faust]

5 million subscribers, the game is far from dying.

There are not 5 Million people playing on Retail.

 

[Aces High]

The Dragon Isles are AWESOME. Best zones in the game in a LONG time.

Yes, it's pretty good so far.

Haven't seen all of it yet, though. The water in the Dragon Isles is especially great.

I think dragon riding plays a major role why the Dragon Isles are so interesting: It's a much more fun mechanic than the old flying mounts, but it also limits your mounted movement capabilities a lot. This makes exploration rewarding again because getting to a certain place feels like an achievement.

 

[prinz_valium]

Yeah I don't have an issue with subscribe to play and it does cut out some of the BS that infects F2P models. I'm more just reflecting on the standard MMORPG business model of the 2000's seeming so weird to me now. Paying over $150 a year and not getting the expansions lumped in.

It'd be like paying a netflix sub and then them asking you to pay $10 ontop to get access to the new season of stranger things etc.

Subs just immediately giving you access to everything just makes more sense to my brain in the modern world.

This will change under Xbox.
You'll get the game for free with Game Pass and a 10% Discount on the monthly fee.

So you only have to pay for 2 Subs instead of paying for the add-on

 

[shaddam]

I was an active raider till the end of WOTLK, I stopped caring about the game after that. Last time I played it was around warlords, because it was on sale and I bought some month of game time with gold. If vanilla servers would be free to play I would level a hunter casually for nostalgic reasons, but I will not spend any money.