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[redcrayon]

To be fair: The criteria is the worst you've played. Which means popular ones are more likely to appear, because fewer people play the less popular one.

If you haven't played it, you can't really suggest it. S'why, while I'm convinced my suggestion is quite possibly the most diabolical in the thread, it's very obscure and it's understandable that few other people have encountered it.

Yeah, there's no point in wondering why people occasionally list the Star Ocean, Tales or Final Fantasy games when outside of Japan they are probably the series people think of, due to being popular and having multiple games. The odds are in their favour for an entry popping up as someone's least favourite. As proven by this thread, there are shedloads of awful JRPGs that have probably only been played by a handful of the posters in this thread purely because they are awful, obscure, never made it out of Japan or all three. Personally I'm sure Dragoneer's Aria is a worse game than FFXIII but one of them sold several million copies and the other didn't.

The Dragon Quest games virtually never get mentioned in these threads though, I suspect because they tend to be quietly restrained with the storylines and characters, and don't toy with the mechanics as much either.

 

[Uncle0wnage]

Of the ones I've played, it's a 3-way tie between FFXIII, Ni No Kuni, and Xenoblade. I thought they were all extremely unfun, and I couldn't force myself to play more than 10 hours of any one of them.

 

[Jay Sosa]

To be fair: The criteria is the worst you've played. Which means popular ones are more likely to appear, because fewer people play the less popular one.

If you haven't played it, you can't really suggest it. S'why, while I'm convinced my suggestion is quite possibly the most diabolical in the thread, it's very obscure and it's understandable that few other people have encountered it.

I honestly don't understand why some are surprised that basically only popular and well known games are mentioned.

Especially in this day and age you can easily avoid the really horrible titles, of course people will only name those that they expected (based on reviews or other's people opinions) to be at least somewhat good.

Why would I even consider playing something like White Knight Chronicles when I never ever heard even one positive word about that franchise?

 

[redcrayon]

I honestly don't understand why some are surprised that basically only popular and well known games are mentioned.

Especially in this day and age you can easily avoid the really horrible titles, of course people will only name those that they expected (based on reviews or other's people opinions) to be at least somewhat good.

Why would I even consider playing something like White Knight Chronicles when I never ever heard even one positive word about that franchise?

That's true. Personally, just due to the game length of 30 hours+ being common, it means I'm far more likely to do a touch of research on an RPG or MMO than some other genres.

 

[Taruranto]

The game is epitome of what is wrong with the genre.

Oh, come on.

 

[Persona7]

My memory is bad but I will go for a recent terrible JRPG. Ni No Kuni. Enchanted Arms is also another pick.

 

[ronito]

Oh, come on.

dudes not wrong

 

[Taruranto]

dudes not wrong

I'm not a Ni No Kuni defender, but I just don't see how it can be "the epitome of what is wrong with the genre" when Compile Heart games exist. :/

 

[vireland]

Death Bringer on PC-Engine.

Commiserated internationally with Roe R Adams III in the process of completing it early in the 1990s. We both couldn't believe there was another Gaijin playing it. It was really bad - even had repeatable hard crashes at specific dungeon coordinates. (I still have the hand-drawn maps I made for this. Sad, I know.)

 

[luokyl]

I'm convinced that Star Ocean 4 is the RPG that ruined all RPGs for me. Post Star Ocean 4, every JRPG is bad until proven otherwise.

 

[casiopao]

Posts like this hurt my soul. I like all of these except Disgaea. I'd guess it's most likely a difference in defining worst though. A good chunk of people here seem to define worst as least liked. While I'd define worst as most broken. I like a lot of bad games and can't get into many SRPG's becuase most of those mechanics make me far to OCD and burn me out quickly but I wouldn't call Disgaea the worst game I've played it's just not for me.

Worst game I've played would probably be Evergrace. I even kind of like Ephemeral Phantasia. The time of day mechanic was pretty good. the battle system was very blah, but the music part I liked even though I really suck at it or is that cause it's bad same difference.

I also love Drakengard despite the fact that I have never quite fully beaten it cause I can't win the freaking rythm game thrown in out of nowhere at the end.

Well, the problem for me here is i actually am very very disappointed with all those titles here and worst of all, i don't actually able to finish the game.T_T

I never had these kind of problem if i actually still have some interest to the game here. I mean, i actually finished all Neptunia series or even Phantom Brave here but i just can't bring myself to finish any of those games. So i would say those game are one of the worst Jrpg i had ever played.

I mean, i even finished Toki Towa there(Time and Eternity) here. And i still feel, i liked that game more than what Disgaea is able to deliver to me.

Especially Persona 3 and 4 there. My heart still hurt till now u know. I wanted so much to love that game that i still bought all P3 game on PS2 and PSP but, i simply can't pass by 3 days real life playing that game. P4 is even worst here which is why i already concluded that Persona is not my type of game and simply for me, is the worst Jrpg according to my taste.

T_T If only Brigandine and Shadow Hearts had continuation.T_T

 

[Jucksalbe]

The game is epitome of what is wrong with the genre.

Ni no Kuni is just a typical bland Level-5 game. The epitome of what's wrong with the genre would be a mixture of Final Fantasy XIII and Compile Heart games. Edit: I guess by what I've heard of it you might also just call it "Lightning Returns".

 

[Nohar]

Star Ocean 4 was so grating that not even his not so bad battle system could save it in my eyes.

 

[Earthpainting]

I'm the only one who really wants to play some of this games now?
Curious to see if some of then are really this bad

Specially Unlimited Saga

I don't know, man. This is one of those special cases. It's a game where you'll have trouble figuring out if you're just too stupid to get what's going on, or if it's just a complete mess. You can best liken it to a menu-driven tabletop RPG, drowning in all sorts of systems and dice rolls. One day me and my sister decided to give it another fair shake and try to figure it out. We thought we had a firm grasp on it after a solid hour or two, but we kept running into the problem where at random times we'd just get completely annihilated. I don't mind difficult or quirky systems, but without knowing where we went wrong, it eventually felt pointless to keep trying.

I'm sure there's some kind of logic buried somewhere in that game, but I don't know if it's worth figuring it out. After a while we realised that this really was the whole game, and it didn't really have anything to offer we could care about aside from the music. There are better SaGa titles out there if you desperately want to play games where you have two confusing separate HP stats. If you are curious, you're better off looking at a Let's Play if those exist, or stick to the OST.

You're probably thinking of The Granstream Saga.
I really like it, though. :\

You probably don't get the amounts of high five you deserve. I can usually tell who is part of the select few who enjoyed this game, by their ability to spell the title correctly.

I'll be the first to admit that this game is probably jankier than it should be, and that I have some strange sense of nostalgia is influencing my memories, but come on. It was an early full 3D action RPG and it had a neat one-on-one duelling battle system. It's leaps and bounds above Soul Blazer anyway, which I also liked. It's got cool ideas and a lot of heart to it, which is a thing I can say about all their games previous games too. It is also one of the few 3D PS1 games that I remember running very smoothly.

I wish those guys from Quintet/Shade were still around and doing what they used to do.

 

[Jack cw]

I really cant decide between FF13, Infinite Undiscovery, Star Ocean 4 and Enchanted Arms. They are actually some of the worst games I ever played.

 

[TatteredHat]

Ni no Kuni from recent memory, I completely lost interest once the battle system was introduced, it was mind-numbingly boring.

Really wasn't a fan of FFXIII either, it was the last FF I bought.

 

[Ethelwulf]

Ephemeral Fantasia.

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

Perhaps there's a slight misunderstanding of "worst JRPG" here, LoL!

For example, Dawn of Mana is terrible with bad game design and really boring. It got really bad scores and was considered one of the worst games Square Enix has made. Most people hated this game. That can be considered as a "worst JRPG" ever played.

Whereas Ni no Kuni or FFXII got great scores and a lot of people loved them. Yet obviously some hated these games. But are they really bad games? Maybe personally disappointing, but worst? Nah, no way, right?

Not the same!

 

[casiopao]

Perhaps there's a slight misunderstanding of "worst JRPG" here, LoL!

For example, Dawn of Mana is terrible with bad game design and really boring. It got really bad scores and was considered one of the worst games Square Enix has made. Most people hated this game. That can be considered as a "worst JRPG" ever played.

Whereas Ni no Kuni or FFXII got great scores and a lot of people loved them. Yet obviously some hated these games. But are they really bad games? Maybe personally disappointing, but worst? Nah, no way, right?

Not the same!

Worst Jrpg u have played though.

For example: U and I have played Ni no Kuni. U give the game at least 8/ 10.

I feel the game is sooooo bad that i gave it 4/10 and i considered it one of the worst Jrpg i had ever played. Nothing wrong with that right?

Another example: Some of u guys considered Neptunia to be trash and give it 3/10.

I played the game and feel that the game had huge flaw but i can still love the game for what it was. I gave it 6.5/10. Not the worst game for me here. But worst game for u. Once again opinion.

 

[redcrayon]

Perhaps there's a slight misunderstanding of "worst JRPG" here, LoL!

For example, Dawn of Mana is terrible with bad game design and really boring. It got really bad scores and was considered one of the worst games Square Enix has made. Most people hated this game. That can be considered as a "worst JRPG" ever played.

Whereas Ni no Kuni or FFXII got great scores and a lot of people loved them. Yet obviously some hated these games. But are they really bad games? Maybe personally disappointing, but worst? Nah, no way, right?

Not the same!

Absolutely, maybe 'worst' is the wrong word to associate with a thread about personal opinions, but often it's hard to separate the two, especially where what makes some people love one game can make for a game-breaking experience for others. Also, where people have only played, say, twenty JRPGs that a) publishers thought were popular enough to release overseas and b) they only bought them because they got reasonable reviews in the press and forums, it's entirely possible for the 'worst' game they have played in the genre to still be a relatively decent game.

 

[Frost_Ace]

People hating on FFXII

SMH

 

[elhav]

The game is epitome of what is wrong with the genre.

How is it "the epitome"? It has relatively unique combat(that doesn't work too well, granted) great visual style that I haven't seen in many JRPGs. The story and characters are lighthearted and most importantly, aren't dressed like someone puked some randomly shaped clothes on them.

So yeah, it might be to your liking, but it's pretty different compared to regular JRPGs, be it the clothing, the characters, the art direction etc.

 

[KDR_11k]

Game was too slow to really engage me, but I found it to be a technical marvel for the hardware and really digged the grid placement battle system.

I don't recall much of a technical marvel there. All I remember was the awful translation (especially bad transliteration such as Orc -> Oak and other languages used the English version as their base, not the Japanese so it got completely nonsensical).

 

[kazebyaka]

How is it "the epitome"? It has relatively unique combat(that doesn't work too well, granted) great visual style that I haven't seen in many JRPGs. The story and characters are lighthearted and most importantly, aren't dressed like someone puked some randomly shaped clothes on them.

So yeah, it might be to your liking, but it's pretty different compared to regular JRPGs, be it the clothing, the characters, the art direction etc.

There's just nothing of worth in this game besides a unique gimmicky visuals. It's a generic, by the book, jrpg that does nothing to change anything. Perfect example of the stagnation of jrpg genre. Oh, it also incredibly cheap. So cheap, actually, that they couldn't afford more than 10 minutes of voiced dialogues.

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

There's just nothing of worth in this game besides a unique gimmicky visuals. It's a generic, by the book, jrpg that does nothing to change anything. Perfect example of the stagnation of jrpg genre. Oh, it also incredibly cheap. So cheap, actually, that they couldn't afford more than 10 minutes of voiced dialogues.

Sometimes, that's the best type of JRPG, like Bravely Default. I think it's potentially worse if a dev tries to do too much or differently like FFXIII or Lightning Returns?

I'm just grateful that Ni no Kuni was localized. We would've never gotten it, like Square Enix has been doing with some of their games.

I'm grateful to Bamco for that.

 

[urfe]

There's just nothing of worth in this game besides a unique gimmicky visuals. It's a generic, by the book, jrpg that does nothing to change anything. Perfect example of the stagnation of jrpg genre. Oh, it also incredibly cheap. So cheap, actually, that they couldn't afford more than 10 minutes of voiced dialogues.

Out of curiosity, do you mean you like how other RPGs are progressing the genre, while you find Ni no Kuni stagnant, or do you resent jRPG aspects of games and put up with them in games with other "payoffs"?

No judgement intended, and the question can be summed up to "are you a fan of the genre?"

 

[lightchris]

There's just nothing of worth in this game besides a unique gimmicky visuals. It's a generic, by the book, jrpg that does nothing to change anything. Perfect example of the stagnation of jrpg genre.

I don't know. How is this different from other genres? Shooters, racing games, WRPGs? What new did Skyrim bring to the genre, or Forza 4? Won't Dark Souls 2 just be the third copy of the same game? Why are people still excited for it..?

 

[Jay Sosa]

Perhaps there's a slight misunderstanding of "worst JRPG" here, LoL!

For example, Dawn of Mana is terrible with bad game design and really boring. It got really bad scores and was considered one of the worst games Square Enix has made. Most people hated this game. That can be considered as a "worst JRPG" ever played.

Whereas Ni no Kuni or FFXII got great scores and a lot of people loved them. Yet obviously some hated these games. But are they really bad games? Maybe personally disappointing, but worst? Nah, no way, right?

Not the same!

Is the concept really that hard to understand?

In all of your life you only have played two games:

Half Life 2 and Portal.

To me Portal is the better game. So technically Half Life 2 is the worst game I've ever played.

Stupid example obviously, just saying.

 

[elhav]

There's just nothing of worth in this game besides a unique gimmicky visuals. It's a generic, by the book, jrpg that does nothing to change anything. Perfect example of the stagnation of jrpg genre. Oh, it also incredibly cheap. So cheap, actually, that they couldn't afford more than 10 minutes of voiced dialogues.

But the actual voice acting was...plausible. I mean..Final Fantasy 10 has the worst voice acting I've heard in JRPGs, and I know there are far worse contenders.

The combat actualy tries something new, mixing turn based with direct combat. It does have some shitty JRPG bullshit like the fetch quests but I found it a rather refreshing experience. Not a really good game, but its leagues nore interesting than all the new extremely Final fantasies

 

[Amazeballs]

Perhaps there's a slight misunderstanding of "worst JRPG" here, LoL!

For example, Dawn of Mana is terrible with bad game design and really boring. It got really bad scores and was considered one of the worst games Square Enix has made. Most people hated this game. That can be considered as a "worst JRPG" ever played.

Whereas Ni no Kuni or FFXII got great scores and a lot of people loved them. Yet obviously some hated these games. But are they really bad games? Maybe personally disappointing, but worst? Nah, no way, right?

Not the same!

Worse is different for everyone. A disappointing game can be worse for someone than a universally reviled game, because being disappointed means that someone was emotionally invested in the game. It's the worst game for them. Objectivel though, you're absolutely right.

But since we're talking about Ni No Kuni, I can't very well pass up a perfectly good opportunity to gripe about it.

The gameplay was a step down from the DS version as well. It tries to be blend both action and strategy together, but since game goes out of its way to tell you what to do most of the time anyway it kills the point of having any strategic elements. There's little forethought, just reaction, which even in action games is the sign of poor design.

I can put up with poorly gameplay designed mechanics if the story redeems the game. Problem with Ni No Kuni is that it doesn't. Even worse is that it could have since it was based on a game that already had a great story, but it then squandered that story

Spoiler

by forcing it to go one well after it should have ended. While it is technically extra content, the some of the story elements it adds conflicts with Oscar's development as a character. As the typical monomyth hero, his journey should have ended having gained the wisdom and experience to properly digest the death of his mother, but then the game drops a freaking resurrection spell into his possession and he doesn't even look twice at it. What's more it showed that the spell being used without repercussion in the penultimate boss battle. The game simply disables the spell and, through Horace, gives them the laziest cop-out ever of an explanation ever.

 

[Makai]

I didn't play it myself, but I watched a friend play a chunk of .Hack// (Infection?).

My god those voice actors.

 

[magnetic]

Weirdly enough, FFX-2 is the only FF game I´m actually looking forward to playing (waiting for the Vita release).

It seems to have everything I like in games: Non-linear progression, attractive and kickass female protagonists, cool and wacky outfits, an interesting battle system and a not-quite-serious setting (thought some said that the underlying story is actually rather grim).

I mean, I honestly tried to get into FF. I just never could identify with the characters at all. The best one so far was was Cecil from FFIV, purely because I loved his slick outfit, but I got really annoyed when he "purified" himself or whatever and his look changed completely.

I guess what I´m saying is that the general look and mechanics of a game is vastly more important to me than any kind of story. I got into Etrian Odyssey some time ago and made the assumption that I would like "other" JRPGs as well. The problem is, of course, that EO can barely be classified as a JRPG - it really is much more like Wizardry, and thus more in a western tradition.

I recently watched the Extra Credits on western vs JRPGs and it made me realize I´ve been searching in the entirely wrong place for the things I like. The JRPGs I ended up enjoying were great for me despite being JRPGs.

This being said, the Dragon Quest DS ports of IV-V-VI were probably the most fun I´ve had with games from that genre - I guess because it delivers the story in such a delightful, non-obtrusive way and with such charm. No endless dialogues, not a single cutscene, and everything moves smoothly and elegantly.

Oh, and I adore Strange Journey. But again, this barely feels like a typical JRPG at all.

---

Many people mentioned Tales Of The Abyss 3D, and boy, I hated that thing as well.

The obnoxious "MEW MEW!" of that generic kawaii animal thing should have kept me from even starting a new file, but the moment I realized that this game has lost me was when the generic glass-wearing intellectual dude made this gesture:

Oh god, stop it, you twat.

 

[elhav]

Is the concept really that hard to understand?

In all of your life you only have played two games:

Half Life 2 and Portal.

To me Portal is the better game. So technically Half Life 2 is the worst game I've ever played.

Stupid example obviously, just saying.

That wasn't the point of the post. Obviously this thread is for our personal worst JRPGs, it was just that some games mentioned here aren't really the worst of the genre, just the worst that certain person has played.

I mean, it just sounds weird that Ni No Kuni is the epitome of what's wrong with JRPGs when there are far better examples out there.

 

[Jay Sosa]

I mean, it just sounds weird that Ni No Kuni is the epitome of what's wrong with JRPGs when there are far better examples out there.

I guess it always depends on what is important to you. I haven't played Ni No Kuni so I can't comment on that.

 

[Goldenhen]

White Knight Chronicles 1 & 2 and Star Ocean: The Last Hope are the worst PS3 JRPG games I have ever played. Ni No Kuni is much better game than those two games.

 

[batbeg]

I don't recall much of a technical marvel there. All I remember was the awful translation (especially bad transliteration such as Orc -> Oak and other languages used the English version as their base, not the Japanese so it got completely nonsensical).

Maybe technical marvel isn't the right thing to say, but to me it looked damn near on par with something like FFIV or DQV which is super impressive to me. Don't remember a lot about the game though, besides the graphics, the slowness and the battle system.

 

[Alcotholic]

I'd probably have to go with Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World.

 

[Lynd7]

Lunar Dragon Song. It's just awful.

This! I hated how you took damage for walking. At least that's the main thing I remember.

 

[Shadownet]

Final Fantasy XIII.

But I'm sure everyone is going to say this so I'm going to go with an alternate choice.

Tales of Graces F. The art style is different from the normal Tales games, didn't link it.

I liked Vesperia, Abyss, Xillia style better. Heck I'll even take Symphonia style even though it's pretty old.

Story is cheesy, love and friendship. And not even the good kind. The absolute cheesiest kind.

Characters are terribly boring and uninteresting.

I even hated the combat system. Even though there are those that loved it.

Overall, just hated that game. Vesperia, Symphonia was so much better.

 

[Shadownet]

Probably this for me too. I played it to completion hoping it would get better since I adored Symphonia. It didn't.

With that said, it still wasn't terrible or really "bad" to me. It just wasn't great.

This too. Tear was fine, but I could have lived without the rest of the cast. Especially Jade and Anise.

I just don't have good luck with the Tales of… series. At least I enjoyed Graces f and Symphonia, and I have Xillia to look forward to.

I agree. No Tales game have really made me said wow since Symphonia and Vesperia.

Top 2 right there. Then it's Xillia, and Abyss.

Graces F. Can go in the corner somewhere.

Xillia is not bad. Not as amazing as Vesperia but I'd say it's 80% there at least. I hope Zesperia will blow me away.

 

[Shadownet]

In recent memory Tales of Graces F my first tales game too. Hated the whole cast, slugged through all 70hrs of whining and sophie calls. Luckily Xillia was way better.

You got more willpower than I am if you lasted 70 hours.

*respect*

 

[denshuu]

At some point I played through the first two Xenosagas. I don't remember anything about those games other than the fact that I spent the vast majority of that time watching cutscenes instead of actually playing, and realizing that I never wanted to watch anime ever again. It was like watching 10 awful movies back to back.

 

[Shadownet]

I absolutely love Shin Megami Tensei, but I cannot fathom why people like the Persona series so much. The life simulator and relationship building stuff is just far too tedious for me.

Well Persona is a popular series. More so than Shin Megami Tensei to be honest. It's not a bad series. It's just not your cup of tea. Persona 4 is a classic.

Tales of: The thread. Seriously, every game of this series I tried to play count as the worst. Such a generic series, with annoying characters and a terrible art style.

Once again, some Tales games are considered classic. Like Symphonia and Vesperia. Just because the art style is not Final Fantasy realism doesn't mean it's bad. It's just not your thing.

Persona 3.
Boring dating sim elements, a boring story and the wrost dungeon design ever.



Abyss' story is the best in the series.

I can agree with the dungeons. It's kinda boarding, but Persona is not a dating sim mostly. You can go through the entire game without dating anyone if you want to. Persona is about forming connections and bonds. But I guess that's not your think so it's understandable. P3 and P4 are still great games.

And nah son, Vesperia is the best.

I didn't play it myself, but I watched a friend play a chunk of .Hack// (Infection?).

My god those voice actors.

Try .Hack//G.U. Series. I liked that more.

 

[wanders]

I wouldn't consider worst but Tales of VesperiA was one first games that made me stop after the first hour. I couldn't deal with the voice acting and repetitive combat.

 

[Footos22]

UNLIMITED SAGA, Was so hyped when i seen it on the shelf of my local gameshop
They werent so hyped when i brought it back 2 hours later. Awful game.

That and Ephermal Fantasia, looke dso good at first glance and then you actually have to play it.
Tles of Grace F was also a pile of shit for the most part. luckily the combat system was fucking amazing, saved it for me and i got the Platinum.

 

[Z..]

lol. Well, I'm going to throw out a guess (could be wrong), but there's probably a very small number here who make a habit of playing bad games. Not a very popular trend, I imagine. If you played FF8 and made it 3 hours, that sounds like the worst you've played if it was distaste that made you stop. Though I suppose there are those who would argue you can't say a game is great, good, bad, worst, etc. without playing the whole thing. I personally don't buy into that theory, but to each his own.

I played 30 minutes of Arc the Lad: End of Darkness and quit. Worst JRPG ever.

I don't know... I wouldn't say you need to complete a game to tell, but I'd reckon completing at least ~20-25% is necessary to be able to form a solid and justifiable opinion... and the reason I quit FF8 wasn't because it was terrible, but it was just too much like 7 in a lot of ways, which made give up on it and move on to IX (which I absolutely loved, thankfully).

 

[Zonic]

Again, not worst, but I think most disappointing JRPG was Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time. Man, that game just did not want to click with me, especially with how many times I played through Superstar Saga. Didn't help battles would just draaaaggggg, especially boss battles. & I'm the type of RPG player that makes sure I'm a decent level and try to fight a good amount of enemies. Probably didn't help the villain was a major downgrade as well. Oh well, at least Bowser's Inside Story & Dream Team well made up for PiT.

 

[Bladenic]

I wouldn't consider worst but Tales of VesperiA was one first games that made me stop after the first hour. I couldn't deal with the voice acting and repetitive combat.

Lmao

 

[rezn0r]

Was Ni no Kuni massively overhyped at its releases? When it came out and I didn't get it I felt like I was missing the Next Big Thing, even store employees were trying to sell me it when I went to grab something on a lunch break... I just got it this past sale for dollars so I am happy either way to check it out (haven't even loaded it yet), I'm just surprised at the number of mentions it's gotten in here.

There's actually a good number of games I was intending to play in here, it's kind of depressing haha. Although like everyone else posting, there's many games mentioned that I loved, so I'm sure some of the ones I get to will fall into that category as well.

Since no one has mentioned a single entry in the greatest RPG series of all time yet... I'm feeling good & calm.

 

[mclem]

I wouldn't consider worst but Tales of VesperiA was one first games that made me stop after the first hour. I couldn't deal with the voice acting and repetitive combat.

Lmao

To be fair, I think within the first hour you'll have your first encounter with Zagi, and, well... he is a little on the hammy side.