the-pi-guy
Member
No you really can't.
You're missing a very important part of the PC. Modding. PC games generally have far more ability to be modded than console games.
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Would releasing the PSVR on the Personal Computer have a negative effect?
- Thread starter Dahaka
- Start date
No you really can't.
You're missing a very important part of the PC. Modding. PC games generally have far more ability to be modded than console games.
autoduelist
Member
I think your misunderstanding the market for PSVR. It's the inexpensive solution that works with existing hardware. That's okay.
I mean, taking any of your statements on their own -- say, "PSVR is going to be an amazing entry point for VR, but there's no way it's going to keep up with all the VR developments that will follow soon after."
Can be re-written:
"CONSOLES ARE going to be an amazing entry point for GAMING, but there's no way it's going to keep up with all the PC developments that will follow soon after."
and you'd be right... but it doesn't matter. Console enthusiasts do not care that there are better PCs out there. It's a non-issue, because console enthusiasts are buying into consoles not because they're 'bleeding edge tech', but because they: want plug and play, want affordable, want exactly what everyone else has, want curated games, etc.
All those things are true of PSTV. It doesn't matter that PC tech will improve, because many people do not want to chase tech -- they greatly prefer a 'once a gen' investment into an existing and simple ecosystem. I know that describes me.
Fbh
Member
I'm interested in PSVR but it comming to PC would be the one thing to make me go all in.
I'm not too excited about spending $400 (or whatever) on new hardware that needs a console that's already 3 years into its life cycle
I still find it hard to understand honestly. If all the money comes from the Software and not the Hardware then what's the point of making the additional hardware?
With the Ps4 they already have a 30+ million (and growing) userbase to sell software to. Why not focus your time and money on selling software to the big and existing user base rather than developing an expensive piece of additional hardware so you can sell software to a fraction of your userbase?
I doubt VR is suddenly going to make people spend twice as much on games as they do now. I doubt there will be many people that will be like "well, a year ago I could afford one new Ps4 game every month but now I buy one new PS4 AND one new PSVR game every month"
I'm not too excited about spending $400 (or whatever) on new hardware that needs a console that's already 3 years into its life cycle
I still find it hard to understand honestly. If all the money comes from the Software and not the Hardware then what's the point of making the additional hardware?
With the Ps4 they already have a 30+ million (and growing) userbase to sell software to. Why not focus your time and money on selling software to the big and existing user base rather than developing an expensive piece of additional hardware so you can sell software to a fraction of your userbase?
I doubt VR is suddenly going to make people spend twice as much on games as they do now. I doubt there will be many people that will be like "well, a year ago I could afford one new Ps4 game every month but now I buy one new PS4 AND one new PSVR game every month"
They need to or they will lose plenty sales. There really is no downside, even the "sold at a loss" will turn into a profit rather fast since producing it will become cheaper and cheaper.
Just think about if, you have a VR device that can be used for PS4 AND PC AND is also the cheapest. Sony could become the market leader in VR right away. It's an untapped market with much profit in it.
Just think about if, you have a VR device that can be used for PS4 AND PC AND is also the cheapest. Sony could become the market leader in VR right away. It's an untapped market with much profit in it.
Raven Prime
Member
It's also about future proofing the PS brand. VR is going to big and Sony realizes this. Not only will it attract new customers, but there is always the chance that this new technology will entice people to spend way more than they normally do. If you get a new car you are probably going for a drive, even if you have nowhere to go. But I think the main point here really is that it's all about staying relevant in the console/entertainment game. If you don't invest in new technologies on time, you might miss the boat completely and become obsolete.
It's very likely that Sony is going to be the market leader anyway. They just don't need the PC and would lose resources by supporting the PC, it just doesn't fit their tried and tested business model of consumer friendly (gaming) technology at appealing prices.
I just don't see the upside for Sony. If they are selling it at cost or at a loss, they have to recoup that in software. You're basically asking them to sell it at the same price, develop an adapter for the PS camera, and develop drivers to work with Windows...all for what? So they can sell more hardware at cost or at a loss? What's the gain for them?
Fbh
Member
If they do belive that it's the next big thing then they should be aiming to make a product they can sell to as many people as possible rather than one they can sell to Ps4 owners and the non gaming PC owners that are willing to spend $600+ on gaming hardware.
When they believed that 3D TV's were going to be the next big thing they made 3D TV's compatible with all (or most) 3D movie players, not just the Ps3.
When they saw the pottential of gaming consoles they made one that could play on all (or most) displays. Not just Sony TV's
But they have signaled and straight up said in interviews that it won't come to PC, so they will have to do without your support.I'm part of a small subsection but I'm arguably part of the most important: a game dev that will likely be an early adopter and will introduce many friends and family to VR its in sonys best interest to win over people like me
Whether or not they made the right choice we'll know in 24 months.
So in your scenario they would use the razor blade model to sell to PC in the hopes that many people buy it which will cause big accumulated losses and then they get better supplier deals due to scaling which will reduce the final price and that should all happen so fast that they don't have to drop the PS VR price like they usually do to enter new markets. Because if they drop the price to pass those savings on they repeat the whole thing again.
Raven Prime
Member
Sony TVs work with a XBox too, that's missing the point. Within the Playstation ecosystem there is a certain hardware drives software sales model, that you can't get around. Sony can either go head to head with Oculus and HTC and a myriad of other VR companies, or they make the PS4 a very attractive VR platform by itself. It's quite obvious that the PS4 ecosystem option is a way safer bet and that there is a lot more to gain for them with that option.
Beerman462
Member
Sony won't even produce a proper driver for DS4. There is no way the PSVR leaves their platform.
How is this relevant to missing out on sales because you're limiting yourself to one platform?
Sony has to be also looking at it this way...
Why would a PC owner, hoping to play in VR (which obviously includes 3D)
why would this user buy a PSVR, when he needs his Gaming PC to handle VR/3D games?... all to "just" play in 1080p?
instead of 2180p or what ever those resolutions are on Rift and Vive. I know the PSVR's pixals are designed differently to still come off better than other 1080p screens... but again, this is a user who spent alot of money on his PC...I'm sure he/she will want to play on a higher resolution, than *1080p*.
and if there is a userbase who have gaming PCs that can only handle VR at 1080p... how Big is this userbase? Is it worth it for Sony?
Why would a PC owner, hoping to play in VR (which obviously includes 3D)
why would this user buy a PSVR, when he needs his Gaming PC to handle VR/3D games?... all to "just" play in 1080p?
instead of 2180p or what ever those resolutions are on Rift and Vive. I know the PSVR's pixals are designed differently to still come off better than other 1080p screens... but again, this is a user who spent alot of money on his PC...I'm sure he/she will want to play on a higher resolution, than *1080p*.
and if there is a userbase who have gaming PCs that can only handle VR at 1080p... how Big is this userbase? Is it worth it for Sony?
the-pi-guy
Member
Because that is not likely what would happen.
PS4 users: of course are going to buy PSVR.
PC users: are going to be buying a different headset. There are better options.
PS4/PC users: What are they going to do?
Well, they are going to have to choose between PSVR and a PC headset.
Considering that PC can be modded and VR could likely be supported even if not officially, they could be pushed in that direction. Particularly if people aren't comfortable with how things are going. Motion Control and Vita, weren't particularly well taken care of by Sony, and having to make that decision for this third group may sway some to stay PC.
This means that Sony would be losing the PS4/PC users that would be buying games for both. This means that the PSVR market could be smaller, which in turn means less PSVR games are made which means they won't sell as well.
This group at the very least would be buying on average enough games to make their purchase profitable for Sony. Though they probably won't be buying 10 games on average, it will still be a boon for Sony.
I think it really depends on how dedicated Sony is to making VR a success. If they are very dedicated, it probably won't be much of an issue at all whether the headset supports PC or not.
That's the gain for them. A portion of the market that is very likely to go over to PC only instead.
OR and Vive will be better supported, even if they aren't officially supported.
PSVR is more dependent on developers. PS4 is a closed system, and requires licensed developers to make games for the hardware. Thus PSVR is far more dependent on the success, how ever it gets its success than the others.
OR and Vive do not have these same concerns. PC games can be modified, and some already have been to support OR games.
If PSVR didn't support PC at all, and never saw a single game released, it would sell nothing.
If OR or Vive never saw a single game released, it would still be able to sell some. Not a lot in any measure, but it would easily sell far more than PSVR.
With OR/Vive, games could be modded. It would likely be more accessible to other pursuits as well than PSVR.
Don't really need a proper driver. We can still use a DS4 for PC games. I use it to play emulators, Xbox games, plus there are some games that natively support it on PC.
Beerman462
Member
I know. I've used the DS3/4 with my PC with Bluetooth and all. The point is I don't think Sony is interested in supporting their peripherals on other platforms. Especially when the PC already has two competitors.
That's exactly the main issue here. VR is an expensive thing and if it's between "just game on the PS4 and miss out every other PC VR thing" (which will probably the biggest reason to get one or miss out PS4 games and get every other PC VR thing (+gaming maybe), the PS VR is on a pretty weak footing. They don't need to "support" PS VR on PC, they just have to make it PC compatible. That's all that is needed.
Just look at the Xbox controller on PC. They are the market leader and most games are designed around that controller. Now imagine how it will be for PS VR if it's also PC compatible...
the-pi-guy said:
Every single middle to big dev is licensed to develop on PS4. And countless indies have released titles as well. It's a complete non-issue. And again modding is completely irrelevant if you're talking sales potential because few people really care and it's got nothing to do with devs anyway.
the-pi-guy
Member
Exactly.
Plus, there's a lot of software dedicated to emulating Xbox controllers on PC. So there's that too.
My concern is about the PS/PC market.
PC market will buy a PC headset. PS4 market will buy a PSVR.
Those caught in between? Will have to choose.
Having PC be able to use PSVR could sway decisions to buy that, and that market will buy both PSVR games and PC games.
There are actually a lot more headsets than those 2.
Literally there are dozens that are working on VR.
I'm saying make it compatible, not necessarily support it.
Yes, but how many of them will make VR games? How many of them will make desirable VR games?
Raven Prime
Member
We have to be realistic here. The group of PS4 & PC owners can be divided in two, those that have a beefy PC than can support VR and those that don't have a PC that can run VR.
Those with beefy PCs are likely to get a Vive and/or Rift, but since they represent an enthusiast segment they might as well get the PSVR too. In this case Sony profits. If they don't buy PSVR it doesn't really matter to Sony because we are talking about a subset of a subset of the PS4 owners ((Owners of (beefy)PCs and) PS4s), and that group is likely to be quite small.
The group that owns a PC and a PS4, but don't have a PC capable of supporting VR, only have the PSVR option anyway. That or upgrading their PCs and getting more expensive VR HMDs, but then you have to ask yourself why they wouldn't have done so already.
This simple breakdown should make it quite clear, why the PC owning subset of PS4 owners shouldn't concern Sony too much. One thing is clear and that is that there is plenty of interest for VR experiences on consoles.
Ingueferroque
Banned
Yes?
PSVR is an investment in the Playstation brand, will probably be sold at a loss, and they are spending a lot on in-house and exclusive content.
As a consumer I'd love it if I could use it with Steam games, but it is not going to happen.
Good insight.
When it all comes down to it, even if PSVR is not supporting PC/Mac, it will be doing a lot to help and position VR in general.
PSVR is an investment in the Playstation brand, will probably be sold at a loss, and they are spending a lot on in-house and exclusive content.
As a consumer I'd love it if I could use it with Steam games, but it is not going to happen.
Good insight.
When it all comes down to it, even if PSVR is not supporting PC/Mac, it will be doing a lot to help and position VR in general.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Oooooh, let us know how the final consumer Oculus feels like future-man! Also the official launch price please!
Selling at a loss is not in and of itself illegal. It is when it affects or has the potential to affect competition. Capitalism only works with proper regulation because the natural end state of pure invisible-hand/Hayek/laissez-faire/libertartian economic systems is one winner and everyone else loses. Look up anti-trust laws, etc.
More recently, in Korea, one of the scions of the Samsung chaebol decided to take over baking in the country. So she'd roll into town, sell stuff at below cost, the competition would go bankrupt, then she'd hire the newly out of work bakers to staff her new stores. Oh, and the prices would go up too.
Microsoft could have killed Sony dead with a $49 console, and they would have if it was allowed.
The US gov has been captured by business. We are lucky though that there are still a bunch of businesses with competing interests.
More recently, in Korea, one of the scions of the Samsung chaebol decided to take over baking in the country. So she'd roll into town, sell stuff at below cost, the competition would go bankrupt, then she'd hire the newly out of work bakers to staff her new stores. Oh, and the prices would go up too.
Microsoft could have killed Sony dead with a $49 console, and they would have if it was allowed.
The US gov has been captured by business. We are lucky though that there are still a bunch of businesses with competing interests.
autoduelist
Member
Starbuck's expansion plans work like this on a bigger scale.
They are known to identify popular local coffee shops, and open directly across the street, down the street, or just around the corner.
Most regulars to the original coffee shop will object for obvious reasons and continue to give their shop their patronage, and the Starbucks will not do well, often operating at a loss that would force most stores to close down. However, they do siphon off a lot of 'walk by' traffic, which the original coffee shop counts on. This alone can put the original out of business -- if not right away, then over a couple years.
In addition, the entry of a Starbucks into an area often raises local rents as other businesses move in. This puts even more pressure on the original shop. Sometimes, when the original shop finally closes, Starbucks is crass enough to take over their space.
[note- there are also success stories where local patronage is so strong to support the local shop that Starbucks is forced to give up! -- but that requires a dedicated community -- it's what we did with the local place we used to frequent... that place survived a nearly empty Starbucks for around 3 years till the SB closed, though rising rents finally took out our local shop a year later).
The point is, a Starbucks franchise can survive on far thinner profits [if not outright losses] than a local shop can, and in doing so can put enough pressure on it to force it to close, at which point they 'take over' the market.
I'm not sure that this is particularly relevant to the thread, just commenting on your comment.
This.
Where were these threads before the Oculus thread about pricing. Scared some of y'all huh?
Anyways, I expect VR to be an expensive Hobby for now.
Somewhat off topic but still interestimg and def important.
We have a local company, Phil & Sebastian's, that was started by two school friends who liked coffee. They compete by having consistently great espresso/coffe that isn't reliant on sugary additives. They are in business with small farmers in places like Uraguay, and do not deal with estates, so they are in control of the beans from tree to cup, and the end result is pretty amazing. They've grown a decent amount despite Starbucks. Sucess is possible with a superior product, so the system is workimg here at least.
SplitYourInfinities
Member
No. In fact, they should make the thing PC compatible, otherwise it's dead on arrival. A 399 bucks headset is targeted to hardcore gamers and the PC space is where most of these players are. It's important for Sony to maximize the potential userbase.
Raven Prime
Member
Luckily it's unlikely to be $399. As repeated ad nauseum by now, Sony intend to sell PSVR at ~cost. The profits will come from selling PS4 software and related PS4 stuff, revenue not to be found on the PC platform.
How many PC only devs are there and how many will make VR games?
FinalStageBoss
Banned
What would be the gain for Sony here if they sell the headset at cost or loss?
So in your scenario, you're asking Sony to lose millions of dollars in order to satisfy a minority of a minority of a minority.
To make it more clear, on the last survey, appsoximately 5% of Steam accounts owners own a PC that is at least as powerful as the PS4, that's what, 7 million? How many of those own a PS4? Let's be generous & say 20% of them, that's 1.4 million, now out of those 1.4 million, how many of them are interested in VR? Let's be extremely generous & say half of them.
That's an amazing 700k potential PSVR users, all of those peripherals were sold at a loss, & those people may or may not buy software in order for them to recoup that.
Now let's go back a couple of steps, out of the original 7 million people that own enthusiast-level hardware, how many of them will buy PSVR because it's cheaper? It can't be less than the extremely generous 700k I gave earlier.
Do you see how unrealistic that is? Sony isn't run by clowns anymore, they know how to run their Playstation division, & that would be their biggest error since selling the PS3 with a $300 dollar loss on each unit.
the-pi-guy
Member
Why would Sony spend any money? What money did they spend on DS4 support for the PC?
I'm not asking for some billion or even million dollar project.
Also your numbers aren't even remotely accurate. 5% of Steam accounts have a 970 or 980 alone, and those are way better than PS4. That's not even including AMD, or any of the other GPUs that are also much better.
What I'm saying is that PSVR is completely dependent on devs.
While PC is not.
So who's gonna make games for OR/Vive? Facebook and Valve?
the-pi-guy
Member
-Big PC devs. (Maybe, good support depends on sales)
-Mods (Mods aren't that hard to install, and if all else fails, there's still this.)
-indie devs (Indies are still a much bigger presence on PC)
Vs:
-Big console devs (good support depends on sales)
-Some indie devs (Not as many as on PC, but still respectable)
If all goes well for VR, it's fantastic, lots of games for everyone.
If all doesn't, well, see PS Move for an example.
And suddenly a 300(+?)$ investment is without use.
These days big pc and console devs are pretty much the same. Many undies are also releasing their games on console. At least a majority of the popular ones. That leaves mods.
So essentially, Sony's gonna miss out by not making PSVR compatible with PC because they won't have random people make mods for games they have no relation to? How does that make sense?
I mean it's fairly simple. HTC wants to sell Vive. Facebook wants to sell OR. That's all they care about because they don't have anything else. They don't own a hardware platform. They don't make games.
Sony doesn't really care about selling a piece of hardware that's probably not gonna get them any money directly for a while. They want to sell you a PS4. Off which they make a bit of money now. So that then they can sell you games, accessories and ps+ subs, off which they make most of their money. So for this, they need to make it as broadly appealing as possible, which includew things like having their own VR platform.
Spending millions in developing this gear so that a significant proportion of it would make them no money whatsoever makes no sense at all.
I meam it's fairly simple.
Boombloxer
Member
And here I Thought the reasons why they'd never do this are obvious.
PSVR is a part of their ecosystem, thus to keep people inside, there are no alternate ways in. VR, Ps4, controllers, games, online. There is no reason to for this to ever come to PC because it defeats the point. Someone joining their PS4 base is the opportunity to make the platform stronger via long-term purchases.
Hoping otherwise is a pipe dream.
PSVR is a part of their ecosystem, thus to keep people inside, there are no alternate ways in. VR, Ps4, controllers, games, online. There is no reason to for this to ever come to PC because it defeats the point. Someone joining their PS4 base is the opportunity to make the platform stronger via long-term purchases.
Hoping otherwise is a pipe dream.
Yep, and the arguments for Sony making it PC compatible are very weak and ill thought out and would only cost Sony money in the long run. Sony and the whole console ecosystem work off of licensing costs from game sales, and always have going way back. THIS is where Sony can rely on making money off a console, or a proprietary piece of hardware like PSVR, from the game sales for that console/hardware/platform. Also of course VR being the draw for the PS4 to sell more units and push more people into PS+ subs as well as just extra game sales alone. To release PSVR as a PC compatible cheaper alternative to Rift/Vive would gain a few extra unit sales maybe, but only decrease the chances of those PC players buying a PS4 etc.
Some people are just blind AND butthurt for some reason lol. If you have a swanky gaming PC good enough to run VR then just cough up the cash for Rift or Vive or whatever, stop moaning that PSVR is there but not for you to use.
the-pi-guy
Member
Yep, and the arguments for Sony making it PC compatible are very weak and ill thought out and would only cost Sony money in the long run. Sony and the whole console ecosystem work off of licensing costs from game sales, and always have going way back. THIS is where Sony can rely on making money off a console, or a proprietary piece of hardware like PSVR, from the game sales for that console/hardware/platform. Also of course VR being the draw for the PS4 to sell more units and push more people into PS+ subs as well as just extra game sales alone. To release PSVR as a PC compatible cheaper alternative to Rift/Vive would gain a few extra unit sales maybe, but only decrease the chances of those PC players buying a PS4 etc.
Some people are just blind AND butthurt for some reason lol. If you have a swanky gaming PC good enough to run VR then just cough up the cash for Rift or Vive or whatever, stop moaning that PSVR is there but not for you to use.
What money would they be spending?
A PC gamer isn't going to be buying a PSVR.
A PS4/PC gamer like myself has to choose between the two. I'd like to be able to buy PSVR games, and PC games, but can't afford both.
I feel like the vast majority of people here are missing the argument.
It wouldn't be a loss for Sony.
EventHorizon
Member
What is with the PC crowd lately and wanting native support for every console peripheral and releases of games published/released by hardware owners? I'm seeing it a lot more than I ever have before. It just seems very naive, based in a complete lack of understanding of how business works. I do understand and agree that games and hardware available on more platforms is always a good thing but there's something about how fervently and frequently I see the sentiment coming from PC people that I don't think they realize that these things exist as value adds for specific platforms.
PC support for PSVR seems like it would be more of a hit to Sony than even game releases on PC. PC gaming and console crowds are different but much of the early VR focus is going to be on PC and Sony will want to make a stand for console VR.
PC support for PSVR seems like it would be more of a hit to Sony than even game releases on PC. PC gaming and console crowds are different but much of the early VR focus is going to be on PC and Sony will want to make a stand for console VR.
I hope to god PSVR never comes to PC. That would be incredibly off-putting to me. If PC gamers want VR they should get Oculus. The thing that makes PSVR so special is that it was designed from the ground up to be compatible only with the PS4. PSVR complements PS4 perfectly, and PS4 compliments PSVR perfectly. Keep the personal computer shit out of the equation, please.
TouchMyBox
Member
It would help kickstart adoption of the headset which would be good for them. It doesn't seem like they're going to sell it at a loss so they get to make their scrilla on the personal computer.
It's because PC gamers are starting to realize that PC gaming, in fact, does not have everything a gamer could want. And they hate it.
finalflame
Banned
PSVR won't come to PC. It's a peripheral specifically designed/engineered for the PS4.
There will be PC options, namely the Vive and Rift. PSVR is not for PC.
There will be PC options, namely the Vive and Rift. PSVR is not for PC.
I could see Sony releasing it to corner the low end market since HTC and Facebook seem to have the high end on lock, but even then it would require continuing support that Sony would rather spend on the Playstation. Probably.
Quite an amusing reaction this. How do you feel about people using Playstation Eye to make cheaper implementations of head tracking on PC? Does it get your blood to boil?
Quite an amusing reaction this. How do you feel about people using Playstation Eye to make cheaper implementations of head tracking on PC? Does it get your blood to boil?
But as I said, making it PC compatible is a massive undertaking. It won' be a hobby modification, they need to support a myriad of configurations and provide appropriate API's. And do we know how much it will cost? Would Sony even want to subsidize VR experience on PC's, if they sell at manufacturing price, let alone below it? Or would they rather sell games on the PS4?
PS VR is obviously targeting those people interested in VR who won't be able to afford high end PC's. They really don't, and shouldn't need to, care about the dozens of people who has a PS4 and a VR capable PC that are interested in VR gaming AND doesn't want to miss out on PS4 VR offerings AND doesn't care about PC specific VR features: The more time they refine the experience on the PS4, the better it is for their own platform. PC, as noted here, will have several options (I thought there were about 3, but it turns out there's even more)
Edit: What Boombloxer said.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
We just thought that it will be good if everyone push the VR technology together on the same side that's all. After all, Sony and Oculus both have said they have benefited from each other so far. There isn't a need to be so insecure.
Let's see some spreadsheets where you can demonstrate this large, untapped and profitable market.
What no-one is talking about is:
1. Driver development. If Sony do this, they're providing the drivers themselves, not relying on 'the community' to mod it in. This requires ongoing development of said driver to take new its of PC or VE yech into account. Costs money.
2. Support. Sony are a CE giant, not a startup. If they make PSVR PC compatible they'll have to fully support it via help desk, community relations and the rest of it, all to a market that expects everything to be for free. Costs money & there's always a PR risk.
3. Retool and have a separate SKU for the camera since it has a proprietary connector. Again, costs money.
So far, all that's here are costs, not to mention going into a market with two technically more impressive competitors. why would Sony divert their attention away from nurturing an ecosystem that is probably bring planned to stretch at least into the next generation PS console & PSVR HMD and one they have complete control over, for what is probably no more than a few percent of their potential user base and a community that chafes at the slightest hint of hardware manufacturer control?