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(WSJ) Discontent Seeps Into Japan's Anime Studios

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Michiko to Hatchin was pretty cool and that's fairly new. Didn't hear shit about it on Gaf either. Maybe it didn't have enough robots or clusters of muscles masquerading as men.

I usually come across something worth watching every other year or so. Nice enough pace to balance with other tv series and such.
 
Brobzoid said:
Michiko to Hatchin was pretty cool and that's fairly new. Didn't hear shit about it on Gaf either. Maybe it didn't have enough robots or clusters of muscles masquerading as men.
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I downloaded that after hearing about it on AWO. It's awesome. Kind of hoping it gets a release here.

Am I just wasting my time with that dream? :(
 
Yoboman said:
It died with Gurren Lagann. Not as a result of, but that was seriously the last quality Anime I can recall and even the regular shonen shows started to dip in general quality and animation around then. I remember Anime was hitting some real highs up until 2006 or so.
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Exaggeration. Animation wise, Maria + Holic and Bakemonogatari (Spring '09 and Summer '09 respectively) both trump Gurren Lagann.

Storywise, (and I'm speaking in terms of general appeal, or else I'd put Bakemonogatari here as well) I think Eden of the East will top Gurren Lagann, once they release the movies and finish the plotlines.

Although nothing recently released has been as blood pumping or all around fun as Gurren Lagann, (then again, how many anime actually are), it irks me to see people talk about it like it was the last great anime ever.
 
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In other news the King of Eden comes out in a week. Yay. And FMA Brotherhood has been great, too. Great animation, pacing, and plot.
 
Yoboman said:
Every time I look in the seasonal Anime thread, half the shows are targeting the otaku crowd and the weirdo fan service shows.
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Hence why I've ignored them. It's depressing.
 
Andrex said:
In other news the King of Eden comes out in a week. Yay. And FMA Brotherhood has been great, too. Great animation, pacing, and plot.
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I was wondering where the movies went, good to hear the first one's coming out soon.
 
Bakemono-slideshow was an ok show but the animation consisted of a powerpoint presentation.


Baccano! Aired around the same time as TTGL and its a fantastic show.
 
neoanarch said:
Bakemono-slideshow was an ok show but the animation consisted of a powerpoint presentation.


Baccano! Aired around the same time as TTGL and its a fantastic show.
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True, for the most part, but when the story called for action the animation was as smooth as butter.
 
The Take Out Bandit said:
I downloaded that after hearing about it on AWO. It's awesome. Kind of hoping it gets a release here.

Am I just wasting my time with that dream? :(
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yeah, some of my files are shitty so I'd really like a dvd box or something

..you know, if we're dreaming and all. :\
 
Could the popularity of weekly serials be part of it? I don't watch anime movies anymore because Naruto, FMA and One Piece are enough for me each week. If I wanted more, there's Bleach and much more. It lacks the quality of a movie, but the continued storylines and <25 minute runtimes mean I can get in and out in no time. PEACE.
 
Replicant said:
I used to like anime but these days it's hard to keep the interest when the majority of the theme are "moe moe" stuff. Give me back the adventure/action/romance stories that do not involve anyone younger than 18 years old or look like they could be in pre-high school even though their age is 18.
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This. Stuff like Cowboy bebop, tekaman blade, etc. I also don't mind the shows that do use high school students if they use it right but alot of them are now just making it a moe and emo.

I think something like Sailor Moon is much better than what we see in the high school dramas now.
 
"Studios in China and South Korea now churn out high-quality anime-style programs, helped by cheaper labor and, in some cases, government subsidies."

Like what? Or are they referring to outsourced projects that Japanese studios take credit for?

Anyway, over the last few years there have been so few worthwhile shows (IMO) that the industry looks like it will die with barely a whimper. Too bad, but I can't say it looks like it will recover or that there's much even worth recovering.
 
Sounds to me like the artists need to start demanding more control. Without their talent the suits wouldn't have businesses to manage.

Dirtbag said:
God I hate anime so much.
I even hate the word "anime"
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Then this is the perfect thread for you!
 
ITT: Way too many people thinking that they know what they are talking about, when a lot of the problems stem from marketing (and as Shouta pointed out) the lack of quality DVD merchandise.
 
Kaijima said:
This is what happens with the creative types let suits /take over/ the business side. Sadly, this happens all the time because art people think business sullies art and so they want no part of it. But somebody has to run the books and do the accounting, so the suits who don't understand the creative process come in and take over.

Unfortunately there's an age-old mentality in place that practical considerations are the enemy of freedom, creativity, and self-expression, so we rarely get artists who are also educated in business, it seems. It also makes creative types naive and ready to be taken advantage of by cruel industries. That leads to burnout of talented people.
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lot of truth in this post. I've experienced this shit first hand.
 
I figure that being an animator is as thankless as being a low level programmer at a game studio though. Long hours, kind of bad pay and no respect.
The (American) movie industry solved the problem by essentially unionizing everyone, so that even if no one knows who the key grip is, he'll still have full benefits and a decent wage.
But I suppose unionized animators in Japan is probably a non-starter.

As for the lagging sales, I have to imagine that's a different problem altogether.
 
firehawk12 said:
I figure that being an animator is as thankless as being a low level programmer at a game studio though. Long hours, kind of bad pay and no respect.
The (American) movie industry solved the problem by essentially unionizing everyone, so that even if no one knows who the key grip is, he'll still have full benefits and a decent wage.
But I suppose unionized animators in Japan is probably a non-starter.

As for the lagging sales, I have to imagine that's a different problem altogether.
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and the unionization (only some studios in Cali are part of the union) is basically killing the industry there. It is not the fault of the union but rather, studios rather outsource the work from their LA studios to other places that don't have unionized CG artists (like just about everywhere else in the world.) Globalization is benefiting the rich like no tomorrow because they are the only ones with great mobility to reshuffle works around the world. Poorer people like the rest of us are stuck with little mobility.
 
Yeah, I suppose the problem with knowledge economies is that you really can't win. Someone, somewhere will do the job cheaper than you and you either have to live with lower wages or just quit the industry all together.

But then it's up to the studios to decide whether or not it's worth having local talent in order to subsidize the greater costs of hiring locally. Sort of like when Ah-nold decided to take a paycut in order to film Terminator 3 in California.
 
NetMapel said:
This is what happens when business people get involved in art. It's all business now and little creativity :( Artists everywhere are often compensated badly because businesses like to take advantage of them. So, this story does not surprise me.
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There is a book out there somewhere telling enterprising business and managing people that passion is a commodity that can be exploited.
 
Shouta said:
Not surprising. The industry here is just a mess. DVD sales are also declining because the price of the value of those DVDs is shit. The price for how much you get in content is crap and only the most hardcore get them which hurts them as well.
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This.

6000yen (about 60 bucks) for 2-3 episodes of a show on a blue ray? You can always get the regular dvd version for 5000 I guess. It is ridiculous.
 
Shouta said:
Not surprising. The industry here is just a mess. DVD sales are also declining because the price of the value of those DVDs is shit. The price for how much you get in content is crap and only the most hardcore get them which hurts them as well.
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Then you have the occasional series like Bakemonogatari which is very well received and set historical sales records (or close to and this just a month or 2 ago). I don't think it's just the value that's offered, but also the quality of the series that affects it.

The bonuses offered were (are):
Printed end-card artwork for each episode
VA Commentary Track
CD containing story arc heroine OP song (and instrumental only version) and podcast
&#8593;nothing terribly special (except the VA commentary tracks are extremely well done)

2episode story arc volume MSRP (bluray) = 7350yen
3episode story arc volume MSRP (bluray) = 8400yen
 
NetMapel said:
and the unionization (only some studios in Cali are part of the union) is basically killing the industry there. It is not the fault of the union but rather, studios rather outsource the work from their LA studios to other places that don't have unionized CG artists (like just about everywhere else in the world.) Globalization is benefiting the rich like no tomorrow because they are the only ones with great mobility to reshuffle works around the world. Poorer people like the rest of us are stuck with little mobility.
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Unionization isn't killing the industry, greed is. Is it right to blame animators for trying to secure a living wage so they can support themselves? What's the alternative? Should we all try to be competitive with global wages? I can't live here on what some guy in India makes FFS!

I don't understand how an industry that is so wildly popular can't afford to pay the people that make the product. Why should there be any innovation? You aren't going to get anymore Cowboy Bebops by paying local animators $1000 bucks a month and outsourcing as much of the work as you can. You're going to get what we've been getting-shallow derivative shit!
 
Zoramon089 said:
You should probably just give up on that hope then...because what you're asking for and what you're complaining about directly contradict each other
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Yeah I knew I would get called out on the Akira plot. But, I understood it much much more than I did shit like Appleseed, or some others I can't remember the names of. Besides, I loved the bikes, and the characters and the story and the art and everything about it. It was a package.

Plus, nobody animates at 24fps anymore. Production values on Akira are unmatched in my opinion.
 
Shouta said:
Not surprising. The industry here is just a mess. DVD sales are also declining because the price of the value of those DVDs is shit. The price for how much you get in content is crap and only the most hardcore get them which hurts them as well.
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Not that pricing in general isn't kind of screwed up in Japan, but anime pricing is borderline criminal. I don't know what things are like now, but when I was living there I remember it was still a world where you would expect to pay $60 for a DVD with two episodes on it. I always laughed when people bitched about anime pricing here in the States, because it's god-damn nirvana here compared to what Japanese folks get back in the motherland.

My frustration was always more for J-drama, which I actually cared about versus most anime. Oh, what's that? You want me to pay $230 for the full 11-episode run of Koukou Kyoushi 2003 on DVD? $200 to get all of the volumes for the 12-episode run of Muko Dono? $160 for seven episodes of Papa to Musume no Nanokakan? Hahahahaha FUCK YOU JAPAN!
 
shidoshi said:
My frustration was always more for J-drama, which I actually cared about versus most anime. Oh, what's that? You want me to pay $230 for the full 11-episode run of Koukou Kyoushi 2003 on DVD? $200 to get all of the volumes for the 12-episode run of Muko Dono? $160 for seven episodes of Papa to Musume no Nanokakan? Hahahahaha FUCK YOU JAPAN!
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That's cheaper than anime, atleast...~$20/ep vs $30/ep....and dramas are generally what...44min vs 24min per episode?
 
RSLAEV said:
Unionization isn't killing the industry, greed is. Is it right to blame animators for trying to secure a living wage so they can support themselves? What's the alternative? Should we all try to be competitive with global wages? I can't live here on what some guy in India makes FFS!

I don't understand how an industry that is so wildly popular can't afford to pay the people that make the product. Why should there be any innovation? You aren't going to get anymore Cowboy Bebops by paying local animators $1000 bucks a month and outsourcing as much of the work as you can. You're going to get what we've been getting-shallow derivative shit!
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No I am not blaming the animators or the union. As I said in my post, studios are greedy and rather outsource the work out so they can pay them less. Personally, I would support an expansion of the union to cover more area and studios.
 
NetMapel said:
No I am not blaming the animators or the union. As I said in my post, studios are greedy and rather outsource the work out so they can pay them less. Personally, I would support an expansion of the union to cover more area and studios.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to be so accusatory. It's just that people on the net are so quick to defend the executives and blame job losses on "greedy unions". I know there are some shady union practices but you can't just establish that any worker that tries to unionize is wholly at fault for that job going overseas.

I don't know if expanding the union is the answer or not though. Foreign studios already exist and already have a lot of the contracts. The animation industry is in the same boat as a lot of skilled work in america. If they sell the product here they have to keep some jobs here or how the heck are we supposed to pay for anything?
 
Decado said:
"Studios in China and South Korea now churn out high-quality anime-style programs, helped by cheaper labor and, in some cases, government subsidies."

Like what? Or are they referring to outsourced projects that Japanese studios take credit for?

Anyway, over the last few years there have been so few worthwhile shows (IMO) that the industry looks like it will die with barely a whimper. Too bad, but I can't say it looks like it will recover or that there's much even worth recovering.
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Haven't seen much Korean animation but the ones I have seen I have liked.

34gt281.jpg

This is one of those "it is so bad that it is good" films. Animation especially is really great, character desing might not look good at first glance but you will get used to it :)

Wonderful Days
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Movie was rather boring imo but again the animation was good. I saw it in 2003 so it might be that the animation doesn't hold up as well I remember but at least in 2003 it looked great.

33mv9ft.jpg

This was neat movie <3
 
Well, technically, there's also The Simpsons... unless being animated in Korea is some kind of elaborate joke that I don't understand. :lol
 
King of Eden comes out soon! WOOOOOOO! Eden of the East was such a fucking great show.

LOZLINK said:
Darker than Black season 2 will save it :D
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I love the second season. It scared me at first, but I'm really getting into it.... Or were you being sarcastic....
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
Doesn't help that a US import of the same content costs half as much. Same problem with music. There's some kind of inverse retail protectionism that goes on. A trip to HMV in Japan is a trip to madnesstown. Prices simply have no bearing on the law of supply and demand.
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Ummm yes it does. In Japan at least.

You value what you can't sell high so you can make back the money even if volume is low. That how they do it here in Japan.

What is fucked up is the way distribution is done here, resources wasted due to inefficiency, and the amount of middle man anything retail has to go through before someone can buy something is whats hurting the industry, the country as a whole even.
 
Unfortunate, especially the ridiculously low wages and extreme time constraints.

I've actually recently gotten back into selected anime, but focus on more Western-influenced shows with "older" characters at least as co-leads (though one or the other can still work). With the long-needed pricing rationalization the industry has undergone over here, been buying up favored series that I've seen but didn't buy DVDs for such as Cowboy Bebop, Big O, Gungrave, Solty Rei on DVD.

Upcoming, I look forward to rewarding Funimation (and its dubs) some more by buying the Baccano! full set (see temp avatar) and Spice and Wolf 1st season next month. But beyond that there isn't much in these recent jp tv anime season threads that might interest me if/when released here.
 
BuckRobotron said:
Unfortunate, especially the ridiculously low wages and extreme time constraints.

I've actually recently gotten back into selected anime, but focus on more Western-influenced shows with "older" characters at least as co-leads (though one or the other can still work). With the long-needed pricing rationalization the industry has undergone over here, been buying up favored series that I've seen but didn't buy DVDs for such as Cowboy Bebop, Big O, Gungrave, Solty Rei on DVD.

Upcoming, I look forward to rewarding Funimation (and its dubs) some more by buying the Baccano! full set (see temp avatar) and Spice and Wolf 1st season next month. But beyond that there isn't much in these recent jp tv anime season threads that might interest me if/when released here.
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Anime died when the chances of Big O season 3 died!
 
LOZLINK said:
Darker than Black season 2 will save it :D
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Really? If anything I see the decision to focus on an underage girl as a main character as more of the industry placing fetish before innovation. And don't get me started on her "magical transformation sequence", ugh. I think I made it 3 or 4 episodes in to the second season before throwing up my hands and saying fuck it.

And what the hell was so great about Eden of the East? why didn't they just call it "Magical-Wish-Phone with Wester pop culture references shoehorned in for cool-cred"

Ugh. This season blows. Wake me up when they make some more Gundam.

Although Zetsubou Sensei was awesome, so I can't say that *everything* after GL has sucked.
 
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