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[Monkeyball]

Who knew videogames would be all about resolution in the end when the NES came out 30 years ago.

I wish the battle royale was about framerate actually...

 

[STEaMkb]

nm

 

[Kaako]

Will most people's eyes even be able to tell the difference?

That would be a hell no. Unless you faceplant that panel like DF and start counting pixels.

 

[AbandonedTrolley]

This was a BS statement. Not sure why he would even consider saying something like that.

But based on what I have seen from E3 so far, it seems NATIVE 4K across more games seems more achievable on the One X than on the pro. And the Forza 7 demo as well as patches for most first party newer games backs that up. Other devs can do what that want. I think the bigger issue here is third parties, which MS seems to be hanging their hat on, will WANT to do things like dynamic res as it will be easier to target the One X, Pro, PS4 and Xbox One.

Ah yeah I'm not denying that the Pro is the weaker of the two and that Microsoft will more likely have the more native 4K games, but making out that the Pro is somehow faking everything it does by using techniques in some games that the X is using as well is just plain daft.

 

[DangerMouse]

We don't need to go into a marketing 101 lesson, but companies tend to promote what a product is capable of, not what the general use case is. Scorpio can do native 4K. Just like the Wii U was promoted as a true HD, 1080p machine, even though almost no games hit that. Just like Apple says your iPhone can get a certain amount of battery life, but they neglect to mention that will only happen with half the features turned off, and like 40% brightness.

This really isn't a big controversy.

The Pro can do native 4K and even does it for a lot of titles, but Sony's very first comments on the subject went right to the clarity of 4K checkerboarding.

 

[Gestault]

It should go without saying that there will be a range of resolutions and image construction techniques across various games on the platform. I can think of quite a few examples of similar statements where one company tries to characterize the platform strategy or competitive placement of another, and it generally flies like a lead balloon.

Unless people think games optimized for XB1-X are less likely to be 4K native than similarly improved PS4 Pro, I think pointing out that they think a competitor's platform is a half-measure is a reasonable marketing approach, even if some of us (myself included) think it's tacky. In a situation where extras like UHD BR is included standard in one and not the other, that marketing language could even have some teeth when it really comes down to it. The XB1-X is enough more powerful, and there is a point where native 4K gets more practical. I get it, even if I don't love the tone in the statement.

 

[jayu26]

Not at E3 they didn't.

They did that at their own Pro reveal.

I think the closest analogue we have is the DF X tech reveal. I do believe that they spoke about it, and more.

And this is why Sony has been far clever about promoting mid gen refresh. Never promised the sky and kept everyone's expectations in check. Despite that digital foundry article just look at how many people thought everything will be native 4K.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

That would be a hell no. Unless you faceplant that panel like DF and start counting pixels.

If most people can't tell the difference between checkerboarding and native, there shouldn't be any debate. Most people will just buy a PS4 PRO and save money. It has more games.

 

[Sunset Samurai]

Oh my god you caught them!!!!! Or maybe they have said from the beginning that devs choose and this is console warrior bs.....

The latter

 

[nynt9]

And this is why Sony has been far clever about promoting mid gen refresh. Never promised the sky and kept everyone's expectations in check. Despite that digital foundry article just look at how many people thought everything will be native 4K.

To be fair, if one is upgrading from the base console, the X1X is a very large upgrade to the X1 compared to PS4 upgrading to Pro.

 

[horkrux]

Pro also have some games running on native 4k, so that statement of being the first and only console is just plain wrong.

That's the subtle difference between 'first to enable true 4K gaming' and just 'first to enable 4K gaming'

Can the XOX run your average new title in 4K? Most likely. Can the Pro do that? Absolutely not, unless the game is not graphically intensive.

 

[STEaMkb]

nm

 

[renegade_dewitt]

So basically the only platform that actually does "true 4K" is still the PC going by what Microsoft is implying...right?

If so, PC is still PCMR!

 

[Resident_UA]

To be fair, if one is upgrading from the base console, the X1X is a very large upgrade to the X1 compared to PS4 upgrading to Pro.

That says more about S than it does about Pro. Lol

 

[jayu26]

Who knew videogames would be all about resolution in the end when the NES came out 30 years ago.

Here is a hint, if you don't like people talking about tech don't entire a tech thread.

 

[black070]

I was just reading a thread this morning where everyone kept saying the difference between the pro and the XOX was native 4k. I personally don't mind how they achieve 4k, but still, it was being said quite a bit.

Ofc, the usual suspects are all here denying that and accusing everyone of having an agenda. This place is a mess during E3.

Yup, it's hilarious.

 

[chubigans]

I thought 4K Ultra HD was native. Or assumed that at least.

Huh, guess I should have known better.

 

[Tahnit]

I fucking knew this wasn't native 4K.

 

[Hendrick's]

I wish the battle royale was about framerate actually...

Me too, but framerate isn't sexy enough.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

That's the subtle difference between 'first to enable true 4K gaming' and just 'first to enable 4K gaming'

Can the XOX run your average new title in 4K? Most likely. Can the Pro do that? Absolutely not, unless the game is not graphically intensive.

Do you have proof of this?

 

[Kaako]

If most people can't tell the difference between checkerboarding and native, there shouldn't be any debate. Most people will just buy a PS4 PRO and save money. It has more games.

No lies detected and no debate to be had.
They literally positioned/priced this HW to sell only to their hardcore of the hardcore and it's going to bite them in the ass.

 

[nynt9]

That's the subtle difference between 'first to enable true 4K gaming' and just 'first to enable 4K gaming'

Can the XOX run your average new title in 4K? Most likely. Can the Pro do that? Absolutely not, unless the game is not graphically intensive.

I can't verify this, but a comment in one of the threads today stated that currently there are more pro upgraded games that are 4K than sub 4k.

X1X will surely have a better ratio though when it comes out.

 

[Resident_UA]

That's the subtle difference between 'first to enable true 4K gaming' and just 'first to enable 4K gaming'

Can the XOX run your average new title in 4K? Most likely. Can the Pro do that? Absolutely not, unless the game is not graphically intensive.

What is this based on?!

 

[Shai-Tan]

dynamic resolution is fine, at least until 4k tv panels support the equivalent of g-sync

 

[flkraven]

So basically the only platform that actually does "true 4K" is still the PC going by what Microsoft is implying...right?

If so, PC is still PCMR!

I mean, it's the same thing. Not every PC will run every game at 4K, the same way that not every developer will choose 4K/60 on xbx. But why not make this a 3 way 'war' thread, since limiting it only to console warz was getting stale.

 

[jaxpunk]

A game has a 2160p frame buffer output. That includes Native 4K, Checkerboarding, and Dynamic Resolution.

https://news.xbox.com/2017/06/11/new-packaging-icons-xbox/



So what anything above 1080 is 4k now?

 

[Skilletor]

I think that some people are offended because Spencer stated that the Pro was not the competitor of the X.

Man, Sony could come back and say the entire Xbox division is not the competitor to the PS.

Who cares?!

I'm out Enjoy

I'm offended that MS' marketing speech took lessons from Lionel Hutz.

 

[Kyuur]

I mean...what did OP expect? It's up to the devs to decide how they utilise the extra power. Microsoft can't put out some strict mandate to ensure all X support is native 4k or bust, that would be bad for everyone.

Dynamic 4k seems like a great way to achieve smooth gameplay and quality visuals. Works great at lower resolutions and I see no reason to suggest it wouldn't here. It's often hard to notice when a resolution drops in the heat of the moment, but keeping that framerate and frame pacing smooth is crucial.

The problem here that people are missing is that Microsoft is the one who created the perception of a standard to begin with. They have a nice shiny "4K ULTRA HD" label on all these games despite the fact that they will differ in what you actually get. It's good to know what the hell this label actually means.

Imagine if they had a "60FPS" sticker but their standard allowed for reduced fps under load. It's misleading.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

DF said in many cases checkerboarding is indistinguishable from native 4K.

With the same assets, it's about the difference from 900p to 1080p, IMO. Once you start using higher res textures plus adding extra effects, I think the difference will actually be greater than XB1 to PS4, though.

 

[SilentRage47]

Shocking

 

[Fliesen]

That's the subtle difference between 'first to enable true 4K gaming' and just 'first to enable 4K gaming'

Can the XOX run your average new title in 4K? Most likely. Can the Pro do that? Absolutely not, unless the game is not graphically intensive.

Average new title? Like a Ubisoft multiplat maybe? AC: Origins comes to mind...

I find it rather silly that instead of being happy to have the currently most powerful console on the market, they're drawing these arbitrary lines of where one console is any more 'true' than another.
It's like when 2 kids are racing one another, one kid determining 'and HERE is the finish line, i win' just as it overtook the other.

Both parties guilty of misinformation but at least Sony wasn't arrogant during Pro reveal...

Cerny is physically incapable of arrogance, i think.

 

[Resident_UA]

A game has a 2160p frame buffer output. That includes Native 4K, Checkerboarding, and Dynamic Resolution.

https://news.xbox.com/2017/06/11/new-packaging-icons-xbox/



So what anything above 1080 is 4k now?

Both parties guilty of misinformation but at least Sony wasn't arrogant during Pro reveal...

 

[oldergamer]

From their own site:

https://news.xbox.com/2017/06/11/new-packaging-icons-xbox/

Despite their claims about "true 4K" and thus not competing with the pro, they're using the same techniques.

The Assassin's Creed Origins director confirms here that the game will be dynamic 4k on XB1X: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtllzLCt1WY

Edit: there seems to be some confusion. Yes, this is old news for some but clearly new to others going by posts in this thread. Also, this thread is a reaction to Spencer's comments from recent interviews, as explained here:



For the record, I don't think there's anything wrong with checkerboarding or even dynamic 4K. I think they're fine techniques. I also think a "native 4k mandate for all games" would be a bad idea anyway.

There's nothing to stop anyone using whatever technique they want. The way you phrased that is dubious.

 

[GHG]

So in Microsoft marketing terms "4k" doesn't actually mean 4k?

I'm shocked.

Average new title? Like a Ubisoft multiplat maybe? AC: Origins comes to mind...

I find it rather silly that instead of being happy to have the currently most powerful console on the market, they're drawing these arbitrary lines of where one console is any more 'true' than another.



Cerny is physically incapable of arrogance, i think.

Origins isn't 4k.

 

[DOWN]

There's nothing in his statement that wasn't true. It does do true 4K.

He was absolutely implying Pro doesn't do 4K while X does... hoping the uninformed would think only X is true 4K. Truth is, X will already be a mix of a lot of checkerboard games and some 4K, just like Pro.

 

[scream]

Question:
I know that the Pro has hardware tweaks backed into its GPU to make it easier to accomplish faster and more consistent checkerboarding with zero cost. (source)
Is it the same with the X?

 

[Tripolygon]

No need to, I watched the presentation. The target is native 4K and thats where there games are going. Forza 7, update patches to games like Horizon, Halo wars 2 and killer instinct support this. Halo 5 is a miss, but I expect they are counting on the dynamic res work on that title to at least lock at 1080.

You can be as salty as you want, but the message has been clear. Their target is native 4K, but devs can do what they want.

With all the shit to hit MS for in their presentation, this is the hill to die on?!?!!?

Nope you have chosen this hill to die on. Right from the start a lot of people including digital foundry said these revision console would be using clever methods to reach 4K, and that is why Sony centered their message on checkerboard rendering. Thats not to say the consoles won't be able to do native 4K. Microsoft has been harping on true 4K this and true 4K that, how they designed their console so developers won't have to compromise in reaching 4K. Mean while some of the best looking games this gen so far are using checkerboard rendering. If you designed a true 4K console then surely no game should be anything but "true 4K" on said console. I'm personally of the opinion that going forward, developers should use clever rendering techniques to reach higher resolution and use the remaining resources to improve other places. Salty? Na i'm just laughing at the disastrous messaging that was inevitably bound to happen.

 

[oldergamer]

Both parties guilty of misinformation but at least Sony wasn't arrogant during Pro reveal...

MS hasn't said a misleading thing about the platform. "Arrogant"? Yep pretty clear what your thoughts are on competition.

 

[Crayon]

Lol you should really learn to expect this sort of thing from these guys especially.

 

[nynt9]

With the same assets, it's about the difference from 900p to 1080p, IMO. Once you start using higher res textures plus adding extra effects, I think the difference will actually be greater than XB1 to PS4, though.

Do you have some comparisons? I think 900 to 1080 is pretty noticeable due to it involving spatial upsampling whereas checkerboarding always produces a full resolution image even though some pixels are a frame behind. Unless I'm misinformed about checkerboarding. So while there will be quality artifacts they should be of an entirely different nature to upscaling.

 

[LukasTaves]

People defending this when Phil just said Xbox One X isn't in competition with the PS4 Pro, because it's a "true 4K" console.

But it's not when not even Sony can make their current games 4k native on it. The jury's still out on xbonex, but a few sub 4k games wouldn't change that just as it doesn't change the fact that Ps4 is the only true 1080p console.

 

[Kayant]

You're gonna have to bold the part where he said those techniques are banned from use by developers on Xbox One X. Not seeing it. Willful ignorance isn't an argument.

Really... He clearly says their box is a "True 4K system" and doesn't need those "techniques" to achieve 4K. Your statement was not about disputing the fact devs can do what they want it's to do with the claim they wouldn't need to do it because XB1X "different than that" compared to Pro.

 

[Fliesen]

So in Microsoft marketing terms "4k" doesn't actually mean 4k?

I'm shocked.



Origins isn't 4k.

that was my point
That we're already seeing a third party, run-of-the-mill mainstream multiplat not reaching native 4k on the One X.

 

[oldergamer]

Question:
I know that the Pro has hardware tweaks backed into its GPU to make it easier to accomplish faster and more consistent checkerboarding with zero cost. (source)
Is it the same with the X?

It's not zero cost to use checkerboarding. Doesn't matter what platform it is, there's a hit for doing so.

 

[flkraven]

Nope you have chosen this hill to die on. Right from the start a lot of people including digital foundry said these revision console would be using clever methods to reach 4K, and that is why Sony centered their message on checkerboard rendering. Thats not to say the consoles won't be able to do native 4K. Microsoft has been harping on true 4K this and true 4K that, how they designed their console so developers won't have to compromise in reaching 4K. Mean while some of the best looking games this gen so far are using checkerboard rendering. If you designed a true 4K console then surely no game should be anything but "true 4K" on said console. I'm personally of the opinion that going forward, developers should use clever rendering techniques to reach higher resolution and use the remaining resources to improve other places. Salty? Na i'm just laughing at the disastrous messaging that was inevitably bound to happen.

Lol, is that how it works? I didn't know people could be assigned to hills.

 

[Resident_UA]

MS hasn't said a misleading thing about the platform. "Arrogant"? Yep pretty clear what your thoughts are on competition.

They put 4k label on everything regardless if it's native. And how isn't it arrogant that Pro is competing with S not X?!

Also why are you being defensive about a platform? I have 4k TV so I'm actually interested in X, but it's too expensive considering that I got Pro. If everything is native 4k I will get it.

 

[EvB]

Question:
I know that the Pro has hardware tweaks backed into its GPU to make it easier to accomplish faster and more consistent checkerboarding with zero cost. (source)
Is it the same with the X?

not true

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...tation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-games-machine

we're doubling pixel shader workload, there are other overheads as well and it may not be possible to from 1080p native all the way up to 2160p checkerboard

 

[scream]

It's not zero cost to use checkerboarding. Doesn't matter what platform it is, there's a hit for doing so.

Doesnt answer my question though :\

 

[RedlineRonin]

That's the subtle difference between 'first to enable true 4K gaming' and just 'first to enable 4K gaming'

Can the XOX run your average new title in 4K? Most likely. Can the Pro do that? Absolutely not, unless the game is not graphically intensive.

Grats MS, you built a console for the guy/girl who cares about AC Origins running at 2160c instead of 1800c on PS4 Pro.

Certainly there's $100 of difference there....

 

[Lunafreya Nox Fleuret]

I lost so much respect for Phil after this.