Support NeoGAF

[truffleshuffle83]

sorry if this is a widely known question, but im looking at getting a new dvd player that does dvd upconversion and i was wondering if the xbox 360 would do this so that i can just wait to get that instead, considering these dvd players are like 150 bucks.

 

[Blimblim]

That's a good question, especially since there seems to be no HDMI/HDCP output.

 

[gofreak]

If it can output a 720p or 1080i game image without HDMI, it should be able to do the same for vid.

The GPU has a hardware scaler, yes? That presumably could be used to upconvert DVD.

 

[Atari2600]

On a side note nobody seems to think the upconverting players are any good, at least from what I've read. I can't speak from personal experience though. You're limited by the source material, so it's never gonna look great. Plus, a lot of TV's will upconvert that signal anyways.

 

[Nerevar]

On a side note nobody seems to think the upconverting players are any good, at least from what I've read. I can't speak from personal experience though. You're limited by the source material, so it's never gonna look great. Plus, a lot of TV's will upconvert that signal anyways.

Uh, the ones with Faroudja (sp?) chip are supposed to be ace. Everyone I know who has one / has seen one says it really does make the video quality much better. Maybe some real tech heads over at AVS think it looks poor, but these are the same people who say if you're TV isn't calibrated you might as well be watching garbage (i.e. not the best people to listen to for casual experience).

And if MS doesn't have an HDMI / DVI/HDCP port then I really don't think it will (I think the MPAA is using it's weight to force anything that outputs an HD movie signal to be using HDCP). It's such a fucking waste though if they have a decent internal scaler. But pretty typical of the way MS has been going about the console business.

 

[gofreak]

On a side note nobody seems to think the upconverting players are any good, at least from what I've read. I can't speak from personal experience though. You're limited by the source material, so it's never gonna look great. Plus, a lot of TV's will upconvert that signal anyways.

It depends on your hardware really, AFAIK. Your TV's scaler isn't likely to be very good. An upconverting DVD player's scaler is likely to be better, but how much depends..some are very good, some not so good. And then you have seperate scalers which are both very very good and very very expensive.

PCs are good for upconverting too, though a lot of that has to do with the software used (FFDShow is a popular choice). You need a powerful PC too. Technically X360 should be able to do it well, as long as MS's software was up to scratch.

But yes, certainly you're always limited by the source. Some transfers are excellent, and will look stellar upconverted, but some are pretty bad, and all the noise etc. is just magnified.

 

[truffleshuffle83]

my buddy has a samsung dvd player, and the picture difference is definatly noticable from regular dvd playback, i just dont know if i should wait

 

[gofreak]

And if MS doesn't have an HDMI / DVI/HDCP port then I really don't think it will (I think the MPAA is using it's weight to force anything that outputs an HD movie signal to be using HDCP). It's such a fucking waste though if they have a decent internal scaler. But pretty typical of the way MS has been going about the console business.

Ahh..forgot about that.

I believe PS3 is supposed to do upconversion anyway, if that's an option for you. I believe someone here mentioned that all Bluray players had to be able to do it (Klee perhaps mentioned that?).

 

[truffleshuffle83]

so with the ps3 it will still be a dvd player correct? i assume it has to be since ps2 games are on dvd's. i thought xbox 360 was going to have an hdmi output? is that not the case????

 

[gofreak]

so with the ps3 it will still be a dvd player correct? i assume it has to be since ps2 games are on dvd's. i thought xbox 360 was going to have an hdmi output? is that not the case????

PS3 will still play DVDs, correct.

There isn't a HDMI/DVI output as standard on X360. I'd say there'll be an adaptor, but I'm not sure if that'll satisfy the MPAA - how does the X360 know when it is "safe" to output a upconverted movie (i.e. when a HDMI/DVI cable is being used) and when it can't? I'm not sure if there are issues there with HDMI or DVI not being standard on all systems.

Where's Klee when you need him?

 

[truffleshuffle83]

that sucks, with all the focus on HD games an the like why would microsoft forgo HDMI/DVI connections. isnt this supposed to be next gen?????? HD tvs use HDMI/DVI, this is a stupid move on MS part

 

[Lord Error]

I think it's a pretty safe bet Xbox 360 will do an on-the-fly upconversion of DVDs. Some newer TVs can do that too, btw. and they do it quite well. There's no DVI/HDMI connector on it, but they maybe can make one later on using breakout cable? (considering that Xbox 360 will not be playing hi-def movies anyways, I don't think MPAA should have any problems with HDMI cable on it?) Also, I've read on B3D, even though I'm not sure how factual that is, that the video out chip in Xbox 360 is limited to 1080i output, so it presumably wouldn't be able to upscale DVDs to 1080p.

As for PS3, I've read from some Chatani's interview that one of their plans even is to be able to rip your DVD and then let the console upconvert it to 720p or 1080p using some really advanced non-realtime functions, for best quality.

 

[Nerevar]

I think it's a pretty safe bet Xbox 360 will do an on-the-fly upconversion of DVDs. Some newer TVs can do that too, btw. and they do it quite well. There's no DVI/HDMI connector on it, but they maybe can make one later on using breakout cable? (considering that Xbox 360 will not be playing hi-def movies anyways, I don't think MPAA should have any problems with HDMI cable on it?) Also, I've read on B3D, even though I'm not sure how factual that is, that the video out chip in Xbox 360 is limited to 1080i output, so it presumably wouldn't be able to upscale DVDs to 1080p.

IIRC, the MPAA is doing it's best to ensure that everything that outputs a movie signal in 720p / 1080i uses HDCP. That's why most modern upconverting DVD players force you to use a DVI / HDMI output for their upconverting singal. Now, a lot of people are able to call up the company and get "hacks" to work around this if their HDTV doesn't support HDCP, but I as newer HDTVs flood the market at cheaper prices I expect this trend to stop.

And, unlike analog conversion (i.e. component -> VGA -> composite -> rf switch or whatever), DVI / HDMI connections are digital. Therefore a converter between an analog signal (component/VGA) and a digital signal (HDMI/DVI) is very complex, and isn't as simple as manufacturing a new breakaway cord. Furthermore, it defeats the purpose of using a digital connection in the first place (because the signal would go from digital -> analog -> back to digital again, the point of digital connections is to keep the image in it's pure digital form until it's output to your TV). I'd say that if xbox doesn't support digital cables out of the box, it's going to be very costly (and somewhat pointless) to do it later on down the pipe.

What this all boils down to, IMO, is that MS is being absolutely batshit retarded if they are going to push the "HD era" and not making the xbox360 digital-output-ready out of the box. In terms of HD capacity the xbox360 will be no more capable than an xbox.

 

[Stinkles]

Mrs. Stinkles was testing a bunch of those upscanning DVD players. They ALL looked nice, but they all did totally bizarre and different things with color. The main difference was that film grain (as well as artifact grain) became much more noticable - and details were sharpened accross the board. She couldn't really see any difference between the normal 480p picture and the 720/1080i pic, other than contrast and color. I could see more detail. If they weren't so cheap, they'd be kind of a ripoff.

Big areas of black on a badly encoded DVD were HORRIBLE. Superbit DVDs looked stunning, almost like HD movie broadcasts.

The main advantage was that they decluttered the AV setup, but kinda reminded you that you needed an HDMI switching setup, or a tuner with HDMIs.

NONE of them upscanned through component, but it's relatively trivial to do it - you'd upscan digitally (it seems liekly the 360 will do that anyway), convert it to an analog pic (VGA/Component) and pass to the TV. I am much more interested in finding out if the 360 has digital out.

 

[3rdman]

Rockster at the B3d forums already answered this and basically it boils down to MS' choice of video encoder. Xenos is more than capable of outputting pure digital but it can't because MS is using an analog video encoder to output to tv's. This chip (which is not part of the GPU) upconverts the image to anything you want but it does so in the analog realm...so no HDMI/DVI...not without changing that chip. The good news is that the chip is independant of other functions and could be upgraded in future models if its important to you. I have only component cables on my HDTV so I really don't care...it'll still be 1080i and it'll still look fabulous.

Also, as for the DVD upconversion...I read an interview with Allard who confirmed that it won't upconvert. The hardware IS capable...the problem is that movie studios do not allow upconversion on anything but DVI/HDMI. It would be nice for MS to change their encoder to support DVI, but it might be a little late in the game right now.

 

[Ryck]

My Xbox does........so even if it dosen't initially someone will figure out a way to...eventually

 

[thorns]

You can have 720p over component too, why would you need HDCP/HDMI? HDMI offers a marginal increase in image quality over VGA/Component , the reason why movie studios want to use it is because of piracy.

 

[Nerevar]

My Xbox does........so even if it dosen't initially someone will figure out a way to...eventually

... huh? I don't think that's possible, unless you're talking about doing it in software, and even then I didn't think the xbox had the necessary computing power to do that ...


anyone, looks like MS made a really dumb decision again, this time about their internal scaler / output. Sometimes I just don't understand why they do the things they do ...

You can have 720p over component too, why would you need HDCP/HDMI? HDMI offers a marginal increase in image quality over VGA/Component , the reason why movie studios want to use it is because of piracy.

God, HDMI offers no increase in quality over any analog connection. Please people, try and understand that. The reason that MS won't upconvert DVDs is because the movie studios are forcing everyone who outputs any movie signal in Hi-Def, be it from an HD source (HD-DVD, Blu-Ray) or an upconverted DVD, to be copy-protected with HDCP, which only works on digital connections (HDMI / DVI). Because of that, if MS doesn't support digital outputs (which it sounds like they won't), then they won't be able to upconvert DVDs (unless you mod it, and then someone might be able to get it to upconvert DVDs over component that way, which is technically illegal anyway).

 

[truffleshuffle83]

way to build a "home media center". looks like ill have to buy the dvd player too boooooooooooo

 

[gofreak]

You can have 720p over component too, why would you need HDCP/HDMI? HDMI offers a marginal increase in image quality over VGA/Component , the reason why movie studios want to use it is because of piracy.

Nah, there's a marked jump in quality between component and DVI/HDMI. At least to my eye. One of the first things I did with my projector was to switch between various inputs, and component ain't to be sniffed at, but DVI is just better again. It's a purely digitial signal, no conversions (in some setups there are two stages of conversion - yuck!). I use it wherever possible now.

But yeah, technically component can handle upconversion, the reasons are purely to do with copy protection. But there's still a quality difference between the two also, IMO.

 

[Lord Error]

You can have 720p over component too, why would you need HDCP/HDMI? HDMI offers a marginal increase in image quality over VGA/Component , the reason why movie studios want to use it is because of piracy.

That's the thing. If you need HDMI to upconvert DVDs and watch HiDef movies, you need it, no matter what is the reason.

Also, I'd think that DVI would offer a picture quality increase mostly on LCD displays if PC monitors are anything to go by. I don't know how much the difference would be visible on a CRT TV, but still I'd rather trust a D/A circuitry in a good TV like XBR960 than some unknown D/A circuitry earlier in the process.

way to build a "home media center". looks like ill have to buy the dvd player too boooooooooooo

Well, PS3 has HDMI(x2) and it should upconvert DVDs with no problem, and obviously play BluRay discs.

 

[truffleshuffle83]

Well, PS3 has HDMI(x2) and it should upconvert DVDs with no problem, and obviously play BluRay discs.

ps3 doesnt come out before christmas, thats at least another year down the road. dont get me wrong,im buying all three next gen systems, i was just saying with all this focus on HD next gen, how can you not put HDMI/DVI connections?? the technology has been out for while, i mean ps3 is gonna have 2 HDMI, microsoft can give us one. they seriously dropped the ball on this. i think itll look amazing using component still, but at least give us the option.

 

[thorns]

That's the thing. If you need HDMI to upconvert DVDs and watch HiDef movies, you need it, no matter what is the reason.

why is that?

Also, I'd think that DVI would offer a picture quality increase mostly on LCD displays if PC monitors are anything to go by. I don't know how much the difference would be visible on a CRT TV, but still I'd rather trust a D/A circuitry in a good TV like XBR960 than some unknown D/A circuitry earlier in the process.

I have an 19" LCD and I bought a DVI cable for it, and compared to VGA I don't notice any difference at all.. I think a lot has to do with the quality of the D/A converter in the graphics card/output chip.

 

[SoVos20]

... huh? I don't think that's possible, unless you're talking about doing it in software, and even then I didn't think the xbox had the necessary computing power to do that ...


anyone, looks like MS made a really dumb decision again, this time about their internal scaler / output. Sometimes I just don't understand why they do the things they do ...



God, HDMI offers no increase in quality over any analog connection. Please people, try and understand that. The reason that MS won't upconvert DVDs is because the movie studios are forcing everyone who outputs any movie signal in Hi-Def, be it from an HD source (HD-DVD, Blu-Ray) or an upconverted DVD, to be copy-protected with HDCP, which only works on digital connections (HDMI / DVI). Because of that, if MS doesn't support digital outputs (which it sounds like they won't), then they won't be able to upconvert DVDs (unless you mod it, and then someone might be able to get it to upconvert DVDs over component that way, which is technically illegal anyway).

This is incorrect, for Digital TVs HDMI and DVI does offer improved picture quality. For your Analog TV however it normally doesn't. The reason for a Digital TV the signal is kept in the digitial domain at all times and never converted to Analog. This improves PQ.

 

[gofreak]

I have an 19" LCD and I bought a DVI cable for it, and compared to VGA I don't notice any difference at all.. I think a lot has to do with the quality of the D/A converter in the graphics card/output chip.

I'm not sure where d/a converters enter into the equation with a digital display and DVI/HDMI though (?) There should be no conversion.

I agree with Marco in that the benefit is more clearly seen with fixed-pixel, digital displays.

edit - ah, I see what you're getting at now, that with a good d/a converter, VGA should look as good. However, no conversion (or less) is still better than any (or more), regardless of how good it is. DVI should look better than VGA on a LCD, all else being equal. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but there are two conversions going on with VGA to LCD? digital to analog on the source side and then analog to digital on the display side? VGA may well be better for driving an analog display though.

 

[Nerevar]

why is that?

Are you just willfully ignoring my posts where I've answered that question at least three times in this thread?
Sry: didn't mean to be so rude.

This is incorrect, for Digital TVs HDMI and DVI does offer improved picture quality. For your Analog TV however it normally doesn't. The reason for a Digital TV the signal is kept in the digitial domain at all times and never converted to Analog. This improves PQ.

Actually, what you say is incorrect in all but the rarest cases. Most digital TVs actually do run a digital -> analog conversion internally, before going back from analog -> digital (for example: Sony Grand Wegas). This is due to quite a few not having the standard 1280x720 TV size (Wegas are 1366x798 or something like that), as well as cutting down on circuitry overall (all inputs go through the analog input processor to be converted to the correct resolution, whether they are 480i / 1080i or the set's native resolution). Generally HDMI / DVI gives you the "truest" picture on digital sets, because signal loss is virtually nil, but a high-quality analog connection will oftentimes give you the exact same quality.

 

[SoVos20]

On a side note nobody seems to think the upconverting players are any good, at least from what I've read. I can't speak from personal experience though. You're limited by the source material, so it's never gonna look great. Plus, a lot of TV's will upconvert that signal anyways.

On my friends TV upconverted picture looks almost as good as real HD.

 

[newsguy]

Nah, there's a marked jump in quality between component and DVI/HDMI. At least to my eye. One of the first things I did with my projector was to switch between various inputs, and component ain't to be sniffed at, but DVI is just better again. It's a purely digitial signal, no converions (in some setups there are two stages of conversion - yuck!). I use it wherever possible now.

True, digital mediums like LCD definitely benefit from DVI. CRT does NOT.

 

[thorns]

Are you just willfully ignoring my posts where I've answered that question at least three times in this thread, or are you just dense?

for some reason I missed it. I see now. Weird that MS is not including digital output then.

 

[Lord Error]

Actually, what you say is incorrect in all but the rarest cases. Most digital TVs actually do run a digital -> analog conversion internally, before going back from analog -> digital (for example: Sony Grand Wegas). This is due to quite a few not having the standard 1280x720 TV size (Wegas are 1366x798 or something like that), as well as cutting down on circuitry overall (all inputs go through the analog input processor to be converted to the correct resolution, whether they are 480i / 1080i or the set's native resolution). Generally HDMI / DVI gives you the "truest" picture on digital sets, because signal loss is virtually nil, but a high-quality analog connection will oftentimes give you the exact same quality.

Meh, looks like another reason to not bother with crazy expensive LCD sets, and just get a good old high quality CRT. Also, I hope my PC LCD monitor with DVI input (and real non-converted digital signal ) should work too - hope because the monitor is 4:3 but technically has resolution to display 720p without problems.

True, digital mediums like LCD definitely benefit from DVI. CRT does NOT.

I still think it could depend on the quality of DA circuitry in a TV versus that in an output device. I'd imagine the difference won't be significant though. The main advantage of DVI on such TV woud be to be able to watch upconverted DVDs, and obviously HiDef movies.

 

[Lil' Dice]

So people who own HDTVs without HDMI/ DVI/HDCP ports are fucked in terms of hi-def DVDs?

 

[SoVos20]

Are you just willfully ignoring my posts where I've answered that question at least three times in this thread?
Sry: didn't mean to be so rude.



Actually, what you say is incorrect in all but the rarest cases. Most digital TVs actually do run a digital -> analog conversion internally, before going back from analog -> digital (for example: Sony Grand Wegas). This is due to quite a few not having the standard 1280x720 TV size (Wegas are 1366x798 or something like that), as well as cutting down on circuitry overall (all inputs go through the analog input processor to be converted to the correct resolution, whether they are 480i / 1080i or the set's native resolution). Generally HDMI / DVI gives you the "truest" picture on digital sets, because signal loss is virtually nil, but a high-quality analog connection will oftentimes give you the exact same quality.

DLP do have the standard 1280X720 resolution thus don't need to go through any coversion. Most people who have DLP sets say using upconvered DVD player does greatly improve PQ.

 

[gofreak]

So people who own HDTVs without HDMI/ DVI/HDCP ports are fucked in terms of hi-def DVDs?

I believe so.

If you're buying a HDTV, make sure it has DVI with HDCP or HDMI!

 

[Lil' Dice]

I believe so.

If you're buying a HDTV, make sure it has DVI with HDCP or HDMI!

That sucks. Shit like this always happens to me.
I guess it's what i get for being an early adopter.

 

[Ryck]

... huh? I don't think that's possible, unless you're talking about doing it in software, and even then I didn't think the xbox had the necessary computing power to do that ...

Xbox Media center lets you upscale to 720p and 1080i

 

[Shogmaster]

For the last time people, DVI/HDMI only offers improved image quality on fixed pixel (i.e. "digital") displays!

The reason for this is the digital nature of the pixel pixel displays benefit the most from direct transfer of color value of pixels from the frame buffer to the display via the digital connection (DVI/HDMI) circumventing DAC (digital analog converter) which could add noise to the signal or alter the color of the pixel.

Again, THIS IS MAINLY FOR FIXED PIXEL DISPLAYS (LCDs, DLPs, Plasmas etc...) since CRT have to go through a DAC anyways.

 

[mrklaw]

So people who own HDTVs without HDMI/ DVI/HDCP ports are fucked in terms of hi-def DVDs?

maybe. But you can already buy converters that act like HDMI with HDCP compatibilty, then convert to Component/VGA. By the time HDMI is more widespread I'm sure there will be more.

There is still hope for those of us that have HD sets with only VGA/component in.

 

[Azure Dream]

Penny-Arcade was raving about... let's see... Momitsu:

http://www.momitsu.com/

I did a glance at price comparison sites earlier, and those generally hit your target range, from what I remember.

 

[loffer]

maybe. But you can already buy converters that act like HDMI with HDCP compatibilty, then convert to Component/VGA. By the time HDMI is more widespread I'm sure there will be more.

There is still hope for those of us that have HD sets with only VGA/component in.

Where can you buy a converter like that?

 

[Nerevar]

maybe. But you can already buy converters that act like HDMI with HDCP compatibilty, then convert to Component/VGA. By the time HDMI is more widespread I'm sure there will be more.

There is still hope for those of us that have HD sets with only VGA/component in.

strictly speaking, I don't know if those are even legal. It'll be interesting to see how the movie industry treats them, since it does more or less circumvent the whole point of protected HD streams. Of course, the signal you get out is analog, so there will be some data lost in the conversion, but most people can't tell the difference at that level of detail anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if you see the MPAA come down hard on those and people won't be able to buy them in the near future.

 

[Kleegamefan]

The only thing I have heard mentioned about X360 DVD playing was in the PSM Xbox 360 insert that stated X360 will play DVDs out of the gate and it will be progressive player...

As far as PS3 is concerned, it will upconvert DVDs to HD-resolutions....that is part of the BRD spec according to Richard Dorhety who used to be a Blu Ray spokesman for Panasonic Hollywood Labs (he now works for Microsoft, as it so happens)

 

[Deg]

480p capable according to Allard or someone at e3.

 

[3rdman]

The only thing I have heard mentioned about X360 DVD playing was in the PSM Xbox 360 insert that stated X360 will play DVDs out of the gate and it will be progressive player...

As far as PS3 is concerned, it will upconvert DVDs to HD-resolutions....that is part of the BRD spec according to Richard Dorhety who used to be a Blu Ray spokesman for Panasonic Hollywood Labs (he now works for Microsoft, as it so happens)

Upconverting DVD's will only happen if you're outputing DVI/HDMI. If you're playing a DVD on a BRD with component cables, the best you'll get is 480p...I'm pretty sure about this, but not positive.

 

[VALIS]

Upconverting DVD's will only happen if you're outputing DVI/HDMI. If you're playing a DVD on a BRD with component cables, the best you'll get is 480p...I'm pretty sure about this, but not positive.

Nope. My last upconverting player (Zenith) ran through component cables to the HDTV and displayed both 720p and 1080i just fine.

Also, while I barely even feel like mentioning this because some people are sooooooo touchy when it comes to their audio visual preconceptions, I honestly don't think there is much difference at all between DVI/HDMI and component in most cases. People continually regurgitate the "it's better because it's digital!" mantra, but besides articles I've read, I'll be damned if I've noticed a difference between the two in both my digital cable and upconverting DVD setups.

 

[Deg]

It think HDMI applies moreso to things like Plasma and LCD rather than CRT as they are digital in nature. HDMI helps to mantain a fully digital connection between your systems.

 

[mrklaw]

strictly speaking, I don't know if those are even legal. It'll be interesting to see how the movie industry treats them, since it does more or less circumvent the whole point of protected HD streams. Of course, the signal you get out is analog, so there will be some data lost in the conversion, but most people can't tell the difference at that level of detail anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if you see the MPAA come down hard on those and people won't be able to buy them in the near future.

Maybe they aren't legal. But I don't care. I have a HD set with no HDCP. I want to watch HD movies. I will use whatever solution there is to let me do that.

MPAA probably will crack down, but they can fuck off. Its either this, or I pirate movies. I'd prefer to buy them.

Its not even like anyone can directly copy the analog output without losing even more quality. And professional pirates will already have better gear to bypass HDCP anyway.

 

[gofreak]

Nope. My last upconverting player (Zenith) ran through component cables to the HDTV and displayed both 720p and 1080i just fine.

The MPAA doesn't like that though I don't think you'll see (m)any further players that upconvert over component. That's the crux of the issue with X360, if they could upconvert over component they probably would, but politics is preventing them. You will need a HDMI/DVI cable to upconvert on PS3, I think.

It's a nice perk, though, and Cell should be able to really nice quality upconversion, I'd think?

 

[sasimirobot]

I cant tell the difference between a DVD upscaled by Xbox Media center 720p/1080i and 480p

My Sony Wega Super Fine Pitch HDTV set is kinda small so that may be the problem.

But I think the real problem these days is that everyone wants to be a "tech head". If I never read some topics in GA or the AVS forums I wouldnt even know what the differences could be , much less are!

I show stuff to my GF all the time, like a game or DVD running in 480i and she honestly cant see the difference. I even play some stuff in "VIVID" [Bloom/Red Push/Edge enhancement on mode], which is hated on by the AVS forums like a form of Satan Spawn, and she says stuff like "oh, it looks better!"

Now Im just trying to enjoy my TV for what it was built for- entertainment.

Not a obsessive compulsive techinical slippery slope

 

[mrklaw]

I cant tell the difference between a DVD upscaled by Xbox Media center 720p/1080i and 480p

My Sony Wega Super Fine Pitch HDTV set is kinda small so that may be the problem.

But I think the real problem these days is that everyone wants to be a "tech head". If I never read some topics in GA or the AVS forums I wouldnt even know what the differences could be , much less are!

I show stuff to my GF all the time, like a game or DVD running in 480i and she honestly cant see the difference. I even play some stuff in "VIVID" [Bloom/Red Push/Edge enhancement on mode], which is hated on by the AVS forums like a form of Satan Spawn, and she says stuff like "oh, it looks better!"

Now Im just trying to enjoy my TV for what it was built for- entertainment.

Not a obsessive compulsive techinical slippery slope

Yeah, its like the megapixel game with digital cameras. I've taken better pictures with my old 2.6mp camera with good lenses than a 5mp point and shoot. Quality becomes more important than spec.

I've said before, but research into Europes HD spec showed that most people couldn't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i on 30"-40" TV sets viewed at normal viewing distances. Big screens its more obvious.

In fact, many people couldn't tell the difference between 576i and 720p..

 

[Blimblim]

In fact, many people couldn't tell the difference between 576i and 720p..

Well, lots of people (the majority ?) can't tell the difference between VHS and DVD. DVD became popular not because of quality, but because it's much more convenient than a clunky VHS. HDTV does not have anything compared to the current tv sets except image quality, so I don't see this becoming really popular (unless the government forces everyone to switch) except for the videophiles/technophiles. I'd like to be wrong though, as I'd love to see everyone switch to a progressive format.