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[MysteryM]

The Scorpio x4.5 figure is based on raw flops comparisons right and disregards additional problems devs faced in using ESRAM?

Is it fair to say that ESRAM isn't factored into this comparison, i.e. without proper optimisation games won't run as well as if they were written for unified memory, and therefore, despite the flops differences some games run worse than the xbox one flop number indicates?

e.g. cod ghosts ran at 720p, compared with the 1080 ps4 output but this is because of esram?

 

[Copenap]

Despite everything they are saying, at some point they'd have to. I just can't see their "no one left behind" message to hold true throughout the entire lifetime of the Scorpio.

If they continue with the periodic upgrades (e.g. every two years) I could see them always supporting the current + previous generation. So Scorpio + Xbone and then in 2018/2019 it's Scorpio 2 + Scorpio. Of course that's always an "at least current + previous" so publishers can always support legacy hardware.

 

[Apt101]

Wow. If the price settles somewhere between $500 - $600, I could see myself slowly gravitating into the MS console ecosphere and out of Sony's for a while - at least for several years. I only have but so much time to game, afterall. This sounds pretty amazing on paper.

 

[oldergamer]

The Scorpio x4.5 figure is based on raw flops comparisons right and disregards additional problems devs faced in using ESRAM?

Is it fair to say that ESRAM isn't factored into this comparison, i.e. without proper optimisation games won't run as well as if they were written for unified memory, and therefore, despite the flops differences some games run worse than the xbox one flop number indicates?

e.g. cod ghosts ran at 720p, compared with the 1080 ps4 output but this is because of esram?

TFLOP numbers are theoretical max numbers in a perfect scenario. There aren't problems dealing with esram. The issue on Xbone is that it couldn't fit a full 1080p frame buffer within esram. which made using the slower memory a must in most cases. This has nothing to do with scorpio however, it has a lot more bandwidth then the ESram provides.

 

[wesleyshark]

Wow. If the price settles somewhere between $500 - $600, I could see myself slowly gravitating into the MS console ecosphere and out of Sony's for a while - at least for several years. I only have but so much time to game, afterall. This sounds pretty amazing on paper.

I don't see Scorpio releasing any lower than $450, and that's being quite generous.

Realistically, somewhere between $500-$600 is most likely.

But, given the power they packing into it... Worth it.

 

[mrklaw]

My Brother-in law is going to be pissed since he just got an XBone at Christmas. I'm fairly certain Sony will go back to AMD and and request the to inspect the chipset MS is getting and AMD will obviously capitulate since they don't want Sony to take it's business to Nvidia.

They don't have to. They can just say 'I need an APU in the 6TF range' and see what AMD come up with. Both companies have access to the same tech and likely similar pricing. It would probably be impractical for Sony to match Scorpio tech without waiting until the end of next year - it would be too expensive and yields too low. So if they want to be in the market end of this year/early next, they'll need to settle for a smaller chip, perhaps with some clockspeed tweaks to reduce the gap a little.

 

[mrklaw]

I don't see Scorpio releasing any lower than $450, and that's being quite generous.

Realistically, somewhere between $500-$600 is most likely.

But, given the power they packing into it... Worth it.

could easily be $499 and the fact it is targetting 4k TVs helps MS. They won't be expecting everyone to switch across en masse, and their Xbox one will be $249 by then maybe, so consumers will have a choice. And then they have capacity to drop the price to more acceptable levels when they can.

 

[Aceofspades]

My Brother-in law is going to be pissed since he just got an XBone at Christmas. I'm fairly certain Sony will go back to AMD and and request the to inspect the chipset MS is getting and AMD will obviously capitulate since they don't want Sony to take it's business to Nvidia.

You know that is considered a crime..just for your info.

 

[In Service]

You know that is considered a crime..just for your info.

Crime in what sense?

Or do you mean AMD would be in breach of contract (likely confidentiality) to MS and MS could sue for damages?

 

[Mixolydian]

If they continue with the periodic upgrades (e.g. every two years) I could see them always supporting the current + previous generation. So Scorpio + Xbone and then in 2018/2019 it's Scorpio 2 + Scorpio. Of course that's always an "at least current + previous" so publishers can always support legacy hardware.

Yeah, I agree. But that also means (to me anyway) that any "exclusive" existing to showcase a system will always be using the legacy console. I understand that there will be no exclusives to the Scorpio (and onwards), but I would like there to be.

Using Bungie'$ recent comments about how dropping legacy hardware allowed them to spruce Destiny up a bit for the current gen, certain aspects of games will be potentially gimped to allow for simultaneous release on two differently spec'd systems.

This isn't me frothing with nerd rage, I really don't get like that, but it's still something I don't see being a tenable strategy for an entire generation.

Edit: Then again, it doesn't matter what I think. The games will be where the install base is.

 

[BeforeU]

Crime in what sense?

Or do you mean AMD would be in breach of contract (likely confidentiality) to MS and MS could sue for damages?

Of course. Its illegal thing.

Samsung division who manufacture chips for Apple are not even allowed to communicate with Samsung's own Smartphone group.

 

[Kathian]

I mean you know AMD like MS's business? Nintendos business? General tech companies business? Nvidia is in the state it is on consoles because whenever they get a chance they fuck it up. From the Xbox to failing to produce the requested chips for the 3DS.

 

[Aceofspades]

Crime in what sense?

Or do you mean AMD would be in breach of contract (likely confidentiality) to MS and MS could sue for damages?

Yup, I meant AMD breaching the contract.

 

[gus-gus]

I'm in, now I wait in silence.

 

[Metfanant]

Wow. If the price settles somewhere between $500 - $600, I could see myself slowly gravitating into the MS console ecosphere and out of Sony's for a while - at least for several years. I only have but so much time to game, afterall. This sounds pretty amazing on paper.

I know I'm in the opposite boat personally...MS didn't do enough to make the Xbone a must have for me up to this point (it's been painful to not have Forza in my life, but I've survived).

And then when you couple the fact that Sony will outgun the Scorpio within a couple years, and all of MS's exclusives will also be appearing on the PC, I think the logical approachis for me, is to ignore Scorpio and stay within Sony's ecosystem, and maybe build a new PC to go along with my pS4...or abandon consoles altogether...

 

[timlot]

I may be buying one depending on price.

Pretty much my position. I'm hoping no more than $500. I was thinking about going the PC route, but I have this stereotypical image of PC gamer setting at his desk (or setup) with monitors all around, neon glowing tower case, Christmas light keyboard and mouse, and of course the racecar seat inspired gaming chair. My wife already thinks I'm geeky enough. Last thing I need is her walking by me (at my setup) shaking her head.

Plus I already have over 100 games on my XB1 that will show up on Scorpio ready to play. Buying a PC I'm starting from scratch. Also the four games we get Gold make the subscription worth it.

 

[Apt101]

I know I'm in the opposite boat personally...MS didn't do enough to make the Xbone a must have for me up to this point (it's been painful to not have Forza in my life, but I've survived).

And then when you couple the fact that Sony will outgun the Scorpio within a couple years, and all of MS's exclusives will also be appearing on the PC, I think the logical approachis for me, is to ignore Scorpio and stay within Sony's ecosystem, and maybe build a new PC to go along with my pS4...or abandon consoles altogether...

Well I'll never abandon PC gaming entirely. It occupies a separate space in my gaming universe. The vast breadth of titles. Multiple platforms to purchase from and socialize on. The ability to install any VoIP app/other social tool and communicate with new people. Custom servers for online games. Etc. But it does have some extra overhead and it's nice having a console for certain types of games that I can just fire up and play while on my couch on a big TV without having to bother with streaming (like the Steam Link).

So I'll probably always utilize both a console and PC for gaming, I just can't see myself being one of those people who own a bunch of consoles. I just don't have the time. I remember for a brief period I owned a PS4, Vita, 3DS, and Wii U, and I felt like I had wasted a lot of money because I simply could not play them all in any given month, even several months. I now just have my PS4, a Steam Link, and good PC. So in the future that PS4 may be replaced by a Scorpio.

 

[Aztechnology]

Is it safe to assume that the Scorpio will be Microsoft's new flagship at some point, with exclusive games that'll work only for it?

Sure if the devs decide to make it so the Xbone can't even meet the minimum spec, but I just don't see that happening. People need to stop looking at the Xbox's like consoles and start looking at them like PC's since that's what they are. Basically the Xbox One is just be running the "PC version" with pre set graphics at whatever level they deem looks and runs satisfactory and then optimizing additionally for that spec.

 

[PaRappa]

I wonder whether MS should have offered an add-on solution to Xbox One owners to make the jump to Scorpio a little easier. I say this having been a Sega CD owner back in the day. I'm sure MS could have done a much better job of it today. Play a game on Xbox One. Play the same game with more Bells and whistles with the add on. That's if it could be made commercially and engineeringly feasible. If it was cheaper to upgrade than buy an all out Scorpio I think it would be a compelling choice for most.

 

[Metfanant]

Well I'll never abandon PC gaming entirely. It occupies a separate space in my gaming universe. The vast breadth of titles. Multiple platforms to purchase from and socialize on. The ability to install any VoIP app/other social tool and communicate with new people. Custom servers for online games. Etc. But it does have some extra overhead and it's nice having a console for certain types of games that I can just fire up and play while on my couch on a big TV without having to bother with streaming (like the Steam Link).

So I'll probably always utilize both a console and PC for gaming, I just can't see myself being one of those people who own a bunch of consoles. I just don't have the time. I remember for a brief period I owned a PS4, Vita, 3DS, and Wii U, and I felt like I had wasted a lot of money because I simply could not play them all in any given month, even several months. I now just have my PS4, a Steam Link, and good PC. So in the future that PS4 may be replaced by a Scorpio.

Makes sense...I guess I'm just much more heavily invested in Sony's ecosystem at this point. Last gen I had a PS3, 360 and a Wii...but only the PS4 up to this point. Ill just wait for Sony's eventual answer to the Scorpio

 

[Andodalf]

I wonder whether MS should have offered an add-on solution to Xbox One owners to make the jump to Scorpio a little easier. I say this having been a Sega CD owner back in the day. I'm sure MS could have done a much better job of it today. Play a game on Xbox One. Play the same game with more Bells and whistles with the add on. That's if it could be made commercially and engineeringly feasible. If it was cheaper to upgrade than buy an all out Scorpio I think it would be a compelling choice for most.

Impossible. Simply not how things work.

 

[link1201]

I think I'll buy day one if $499 US. Is that fair or too low?

 

[VinFTW]

Still think by 2017, if it's not $399 it's dead.

Xbox needs to cut some losses to get Xboxes into homes.

Like Phil said, it's about getting people on their service.

They can't afford to sell another $400+ console, they need some people jumping ship back to Xbox.

 

[ShooterMcTavish]

My Brother-in law is going to be pissed since he just got an XBone at Christmas. I'm fairly certain Sony will go back to AMD and and request the to inspect the chipset MS is getting and AMD will obviously capitulate since they don't want Sony to take it's business to Nvidia.

I like to imagine Osiris typing this while wading in the ocean. His computer resting on a flat buoy object of some kind.

A nearby oceanliner caused a massive wake making him go under the water every second of so. Osiris, a neogaf devout, didn't care of his own safety during this ordeal. He was on a mission to keep on typing.

 

[JonathanPower]

Remember that Zen has multithreading so they may have been doing marketspeak with 8 cores; it may be 4 cores and 8 threads, so they just said 8 cores for simplicity's sake (to lie, I mean.)

No. They need to have 8 hardware threads to ensure full backward compatibility with Xbox One games, as using multithreading would make it unpredictable. So it's either an 8 core Jaguar or an 8 core Zen. Someone at E3 was told by an insider that it's Zen.

At E3 and participated in Xbox fanfest and got to ask questions directly. It seems almost assured that it will be Zen, and I've spoken to some pretty high up individuals.

 

[dragonelite]

No. They need to have 8 hardware threads to ensure full backward compatibility with Xbox One games, as using multithreading would make it unpredictable. So it's either an 8 core Jaguar or an 8 core Zen.

You need a CPU strong enough to process all the tasks, if its a 4 core or a 8 core CPU shouldn't really matter.

At least i would never design a engine that will instantiate 8 cores. I would ask the OS
how many cores there are and put a worker thread on each core.
Even then it shouldn't matter because the OS will just distribute the threads over the available cores.

 

[Negotiator]

You need a CPU strong enough to process all the tasks, if its a 4 core or a 8 core CPU shouldn't really matter.

At least i would never design a engine that will instantiate 8 cores. I would ask the OS
how many cores there are and put a worker thread on each core.

That's not how console programming works. JonathanPower is right.

You're describing PC game programming.

 

[Trup1aya]

Despite everything they are saying, at some point they'd have to. I just can't see their "no one left behind" message to hold true throughout the entire lifetime of the Scorpio.

I don't think you are looking at this properly. When Project Scorpio launches, the Xbox one will have been Microsoft target platform for 4 years. And when Scorpio drops, Xbox 2 won't be but a few years off. The idea is that when Xbox 2 launches, Scorpio will be able to run those games.

Looking at it from a traditional sense, Scorpio's lifetime will bridge to generations.

Still think by 2017, if it's not $399 it's dead.

Xbox needs to cut some losses to get Xboxes into homes.

Like Phil said, it's about getting people on their service.

They can't afford to sell another $400+ console, they need some people jumping ship back to Xbox.

I don't think it will be dead at $400. At that point, I don't think it's meant to be a mass seller, more of a high end option for techies... But it will need to be at a mass market price when the Xbox 2 launches, since it will be the low end model for Xbox 2 games.

 

[Trup1aya]

Edit: double post

 

[JonathanPower]

Still think by 2017, if it's not $399 it's dead.

Xbox needs to cut some losses to get Xboxes into homes.

Like Phil said, it's about getting people on their service.

They can't afford to sell another $400+ console, they need some people jumping ship back to Xbox.

It's a high end product for enthusiastic gamers. Even if it's gonna be 499$, people will still buy it because they know it's worth the money.

 

[Three]

Despite everything they are saying, at some point they'd have to. I just can't see their "no one left behind" message to hold true throughout the entire lifetime of the Scorpio.

XB1 owners are already left behind. They have no way of playing VR games. That's why the claims of no exclusive games would be false from the beginning. There will be VR games and XB1 owners have no way of playing them. It's PR. You can't talk about how your console power lets developers create new experiences and then pretend that those experience's were possible anyway. They are just trying to avoid a PR shitstorm by saying what people want to hear. They say one thing and when the public reacts they say another. Your best bet with MS is to never really take their word for it and judge them by their actions.

 

[IbizaPocholo]

The price limit for a console for me it's 499$ so i think the scorpio will be that range and i have no problems at all if is a beast machine.

 

[mike4001_]

Still think by 2017, if it's not $399 it's dead.

Xbox needs to cut some losses to get Xboxes into homes.

Like Phil said, it's about getting people on their service.

They can't afford to sell another $400+ console, they need some people jumping ship back to Xbox.

I think so too.

Maybe PS4 neo will launch at 449 but even there I believe they go to 299 for the normal PS4 and start the neo at 399

Scorpio must be at the same price level as Neo => If they are not we all have seen what happens ...

 

[johnnydrama]

While I'm not too hot on the timing of the announcement, I can't wait to see what Playground, Turn 10, The Coalition, and 343i are able to achieve with the new hardware. They've constantly impressed me with their ability to produce impressive visuals on Xbox One's anemic hardware.

My Brother-in law is going to be pissed since he just got an XBone at Christmas. I'm fairly certain Sony will go back to AMD and and request the to inspect the chipset MS is getting and AMD will obviously capitulate since they don't want Sony to take it's business to Nvidia.

It would be a violation of contracts and trust. Sony cannot have any official details about Microsoft's deals with AMD. I hope this helps.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

I'm fairly certain Sony will go back to AMD and and request the to inspect the chipset MS is getting and AMD will obviously capitulate since they don't want Sony to take it's business to Nvidia.

 

[SeeNoWeevil]

Xbox/Windows 10 exclusive games that aim to wind up the fidelity at 1080p30 on Scorpio are going to look fantastic pushed to 60fps on PC.

 

[Gamezone]

I don`t get the Scorpio. It`s a very powerful console, and that`s all good, but if every game on the original Xbox One will be compatible with the Scorpio, every game also have be very limited in order to match the old system requirements. It was the same problem with games made for both Xbox 360 and Xbox One. The developers of Dying Light even had to abandon the Xbox 360 in order to make a rock solid game for the Xbox One.

Thoughts?

 

[SicSemperTyrannis]

I don`t get the Scorpio. It`s a very powerful console, and that`s all good, but if every game on the original Xbox One will be compatible with the Scorpio, every game also have be very limited in order to match the old system requirements. It was the same problem with games made for both Xbox 360 and Xbox One. The developers of Dying Light even had to abandon the Xbox 360 in order to make a rock solid game for the Xbox One.

Thoughts?

I am assuming what Digital Foundry and some have suggested in this thread (that games made for both will primarily see a 4K vs a 1K or lower resolution version) is correct. Especially with what Phil Spencer had said about users not getting benefit without a 4K display. I would hope that developers will ignore this thought process and use better IQ, effects, fps, et cetera for the Scorpio versions of games. I will be buying a Scorpio at launch regardless, not because I expect the system to get exclusives, or run all games leagues better, even if that will happen anyhow; I am buying one for VR, future proofing for when I get a 4K display and for the love of all things holy I expect that the OS runs smoother on a 4-5 times more powerful console with more/faster RAM.

 

[mrklaw]

It's a high end product for enthusiastic gamers. Even if it's gonna be 499$, people will still buy it because they know it's worth the money.

Yeah, it could be considered by MS as a low volume, high price product, designed to be as much a halo product to reflect on the overall Xbox brand.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Is it safe to assume that the Scorpio will be Microsoft's new flagship at some point, with exclusive games that'll work only for it?

I would say more then likely what happens is that Scorpio is released next year, is on the market for 3 with the xbox one.

2020, after giving the xbox one a solid 7 years on the market, they kill it off and scorpio replaces the xbox one all together.

That same year, they announce a new console for release in 2021.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

I don`t get the Scorpio. It`s a very powerful console, and that`s all good, but if every game on the original Xbox One will be compatible with the Scorpio, every game also have be very limited in order to match the old system requirements. It was the same problem with games made for both Xbox 360 and Xbox One. The developers of Dying Light even had to abandon the Xbox 360 in order to make a rock solid game for the Xbox One.

Thoughts?

That's one of the points as to why games will be developed under their UWP platform.

The software should detect the hardware and adjust the games setting for the hardware it is running on.

So a game may be running 720p/900p, low-med setting on the xbox one, on scorpio the games will be running 1080p or higher and have high-max settings.

 

[Collateral22]

By 2017 it's not going to be as powerful as it would be if it released now. It will be no more than $450.

 

[Negotiator]

Does anyone know if XBOX ONE S(lim) ditched the eSRAM? Does it still use DDR3?

 

[Proelite]

Beyond3d member has calculated the Scorpio die size to be ~363 mm2 based on the mobo shots.

That is the same as XB1 die size. Pretty huge coincidence unless there is some cost savings to using the same size size, or the mobo is just a complete mockup.

384 bit bus also gives it away.

 

[bidguy]

Beyond3d member has calculated the Scorpio die size to be ~362 mm2 based on the mobo shots.

That is 1 mm2 away from the XB1 die size. Pretty huge coincidence unless there is some cost saves to using the same size size, or the mobo is just a complete mockup.

384 bit bus also gives it away.

someone at xbox said they showed the mobo for a reason

 

[Negotiator]

Beyond3d member has calculated the Scorpio die size to be ~362 mm2 based on the mobo shots.

That is 1 mm2 away from the XB1 die size. Pretty huge coincidence unless there is some cost saves to using the same size size, or the mobo is just a complete mockup.

384 bit bus also gives it away.

Isn't 362 mm2 a bit too small for 8 Zen cores & 6TF GPU?

 

[mrklaw]

Isn't 362 mm2 a bit too small for 8 Zen cores & 6TF GPU?

I can't imagine it having 8 zen cores - that alone will be several hundred dollars and aiming at the skylake-e enthusiast CPU market.

362sqmm is bigger than the GTX 1080 for reference.
AMD 480 is supposedly 232sqmm, for a 5.5TFlop part. 362sqmm is about 50% bigger so that doesn't match up. Jaguar cores would be tiny at 14nm
- the size estimate is wrong
- it is just a render so doesn't mean anything
- it is more powerful than 6TF but MS didn't want to say that for some reason
- it does have a larger CPU like Zen


If it does have zen I'd almost be annoyed at MS not allowing Scorpio exclusives. All that power would be wasted

 

[Negotiator]

I can't imagine it having 8 zen cores - that alone will be several hundred dollars and aiming at the skylake-e enthusiast CPU market.

362sqmm is bigger than the GTX 1080 for reference.

I don't think it would cost that much. AMD sells their IP quite cheap compared to Intel/Nvidia.

The problem is that APUs cannot have the same amount of transistors as a discrete CPU/GPU configuration due to die size limitations.

ps: I think Zen has been confirmed by some sources.

384 bit bus also gives it away.

384-bit bus seems like an overkill for GDDR5X, so I guess they're using good ol' GDDR5.

 

[RowdyReverb]

By 2017 it's not going to be as powerful as it would be if it released now. It will be no more than $450.

I think their target is current gen visuals in VR. That's not a moving target, so waiting just allows them to achieve the same goal at a lower cost. Relative to PC, of course it is going to be outdone before launch, but chasing that dream is folly.

Edit: oh, I guess you were just talking about the price speculation? Disregard this then, sorry

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

What other AMD CPU options are there for APU's, because I can't see them using a Jaguar. That POS isn't going to feed a 6TF GPU.

Puma+?