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[Proelite]

I don't think it would cost that much. AMD sells their IP quite cheap compared to Intel/Nvidia.

The problem is that APUs cannot have the same amount of transistors as a discrete CPU/GPU configuration due to die size limitations.

ps: I think Zen has been confirmed by some sources.


384-bit bus seems like an overkill for GDDR5X, so I guess they're using good ol' GDDR5.

Can't imagine why 384 bit bus with 12GB GDDR5 would be chosen over 256 bit bus with 16GB of GDDR5X. Unless GDDR5x doesn't come in 16Gbit densities.

362sqmm is bigger than the GTX 1080 for reference.
AMD 480 is supposedly 232sqmm, for a 5.5TFlop part. 362sqmm is about 50% bigger so that doesn't match up. Jaguar cores would be tiny at 14nm

Scorpio would have to run 36CUs 1300mhz to hit 6 teraflops. Increase the number of CUs to 48 / 56 and you can lower the clock to 1Ghz or less, probably more manageably from a cooling stand point. That can use up the remaining die space.

 

[Hesemonni]

ps: I think Zen has been confirmed by some sources.

Where?

 

[mrklaw]

What other AMD CPU options are there for APU's, because I can't see them using a Jaguar. That POS isn't going to feed a 6TF GPU.

Puma+?

It would feed a 6TF GPU that is just drawing XB1 games @4k

That would seem to be a waste though

 

[Slangblade]

XB1 owners are already left behind. They have no way of playing VR games. That's why the claims of no exclusive games would be false from the beginning. There will be VR games and XB1 owners have no way of playing them. It's PR. You can't talk about how your console power lets developers create new experiences and then pretend that those experience's were possible anyway. They are just trying to avoid a PR shitstorm by saying what people want to hear. They say one thing and when the public reacts they say another. Your best bet with MS is to never really take their word for it and judge them by their actions.

Really good point.

 

[mrklaw]

Can't imagine why 384 bit bus with 12GB GDDR5 would be chosen over 256 bit bus with 16GB of GDDR5X. Unless GDDR5x doesn't come in 16Gbit densities.



Scorpio would have to run 36CUs 1300mhz to hit 6 teraflops. Increase the number of CUs to 48 / 56 and you can lower the clock to 1Ghz or less, probably more manageably from a cooling stand point. That can use up the remaining die space.

Ah, so use more CUs than a standalone discrete GPU would, so you sacrifice die space for the ability to run it cooler?

Seems a gamble considering how these small processes seem to be difficult to make big. Also they aren't hugely power-hungry chips - the 1070 is only a 150W max TDP. Running them slow seems a waste - whack a nice big cooler on there and run it at 1200MHz

 

[SneakyStephan]

I can't imagine it having 8 zen cores - that alone will be several hundred dollars and aiming at the skylake-e enthusiast CPU market.

362sqmm is bigger than the GTX 1080 for reference.
AMD 480 is supposedly 232sqmm, for a 5.5TFlop part. 362sqmm is about 50% bigger so that doesn't match up. Jaguar cores would be tiny at 14nm
- the size estimate is wrong
- it is just a render so doesn't mean anything
- it is more powerful than 6TF but MS didn't want to say that for some reason
- it does have a larger CPU like Zen


If it does have zen I'd almost be annoyed at MS not allowing Scorpio exclusives. All that power would be wasted

There is nothing about 8 zen cores that makes it expensive

It's an apu, you're paying for the die space whether you fill it with gpu sps or cpu cores or memory bus or whatever, completely arbitrary.

They can fit 8 zen cores and an rx 480 sized gpu on an xbox one sized apu just fine

 

[Proelite]

Seems a gamble considering how these small processes seem to be difficult to make big. Also they aren't hugely power-hungry chips - the 1070 is only a 150W max TDP. Running them slow seems a waste - whack a nice big cooler on there and run it at 1200MHz

TDP != heat generated from a small area. Imagine trying to run 16 CU at 1.6 ghz vs 32 Cus at 800 mhz. TDP and processing power would be about the same. However, the former would be much hotter in the 1/2 area.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Phil said they couldn't do 6TF this year which leads me to believe its Vega.

 

[Proelite]

Phil said they couldn't do 6TF this year which leads me to believe its Vega.

Vega should be out this year. Its most likely Navi derivative.

 

[El_Chino]

Beyond3d member has calculated the Scorpio die size to be ~362 mm2 based on the mobo shots.

That is 1 mm2 away from the XB1 die size. Pretty huge coincidence unless there is some cost saves to using the same size size, or the mobo is just a complete mockup.

384 bit bus also gives it away.

People are giving those motherboard shots too much attention. I highly doubt the die is finalized yet.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

It would feed a 6TF GPU that is just drawing XB1 games @4k

That would seem to be a waste though

Yeah true, but as you say it's unlikely that this is all they are doing with the machine. They will have to compete with the Neo graphics for one. Plus this thing is going to need to push (probably) Oculus at 90Hz.

I think given the time frame the Zen is most likely but we shall see.

 

[shark sandwich]

I can't imagine it having 8 zen cores - that alone will be several hundred dollars and aiming at the skylake-e enthusiast CPU market

Ever look at a die shot of Skylake? The actual CPU cores only make up a small part of it. Like 50% of the die space is the GPU.

I don't think there would be much of a cost/die space difference between a quad core and an 8 core APU since the vast majority of it is going to be the GPU anyway.

 

[Negotiator]

Where?

Someone talked to MS higher ups at E3. He posted it in this thread.

TDP != heat generated from a small area. Imagine trying to run 16 CU at 1.6 ghz vs 32 Cus at 800 mhz. TDP and processing power would be about the same. However, the former would be much hotter in the 1/2 area.

Increasing the die size lowers the yield rate -> higher cost per chip:

Btw, isn't Vega the same as Polaris with a different memory controller (HBM instead of GDDR)? Both of them are GCN 1.3, not different architectures. Vega has more CUs (bigger die size) than Polaris and that's it.

 

[LukasTaves]

XB1 owners are already left behind. They have no way of playing VR games. That's why the claims of no exclusive games would be false from the beginning. There will be VR games and XB1 owners have no way of playing them. It's PR. You can't talk about how your console power lets developers create new experiences and then pretend that those experience's were possible anyway. They are just trying to avoid a PR shitstorm by saying what people want to hear. They say one thing and when the public reacts they say another. Your best bet with MS is to never really take their word for it and judge them by their actions.

We don't know yet about VR on xbox one. All things point to not being compatible, but Phil said on the presser, that Scorpio would allow "uncompromised VR". That could be (and it's very likely) a jab at PSVR, but maybe they mean the xbone as well?

They are also making a huge deal on how with uwp they have common accessories capabilities across all devices...

Until Ms announces anything it's anyone's guess, but perhaps VR games on xb1 will be just super low quality, to the point of not being worthwhile and on Scorpio they will really shine...

 

[Negotiator]

Can't imagine why 384 bit bus with 12GB GDDR5 would be chosen over 256 bit bus with 16GB of GDDR5X. Unless GDDR5x doesn't come in 16Gbit densities.

The motherboard shot clearly shows 12 memory chips = 384-bit, not 8 or 16 chips = 256-bit.

Obviously this can change in the final product, but that's what we've got for now.

GDDR5X is new technology, production volume is not as high as GDDR5 (economies of scale thanks to PC GPUs and PS4), so it's more expensive.

 

[Hesemonni]

Someone talked to MS higher ups at E3. He posted it in this thread.

Oh. I've missed that and you'd figure it'd be all over the gaming medias at the moment since it'd mark the first verified Zen application. Besides it's a definite improvement and I doubt MS would waste an opportunity like this to trounce their technical superiority.

MS Execs have been notoriously flaky with their output this E3 so I'd say we'd better wait for a better confirmation.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Oh. I've missed that and you'd figure it'd be all over the gaming medias at the moment since it'd mark the first verified Zen application. Besides it's a definite improvement and I doubt MS would waste an opportunity like this to trounce their technical superiority.

MS Execs have been notoriously flaky with their output this E3 so I'd say we'd better wait for a better confirmation.

I'm not getting my hopes up just yet. Even if it is Zen it might be the Laptop/netbook version. No doubt an improvement over Jaguar but nothing to really boast about.

 

[c0de]

Does anyone know if XBOX ONE S(lim) ditched the eSRAM? Does it still use DDR3?

Of course it does.

 

[scently]

I think they haven't decided on the final/finer details of a lot of things because they have a long way to go yet. We only know that it has an 8 core cpu, no idea what type it is, clock speed, etc. We only know that it has memory bandwidth of over 320gb/s. No information on the memory type etc. We know the GPU is atleast 6tf, it seems that is the least they can achieve. It could very well be higher.

There is still a long way to go yet.

I think it will be a powerful console and at least decent for 4k res. For reference go look at the benchmarks of the r9 390x for an idea of how it will perform, and then take in the fact that its based on newer architecture. For those that keep saying its not going to do 4k60fps very well...the majority of games on consoles run at 30fps, don't know why you suddenly expect that to change.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

I can't imagine it having 8 zen cores - that alone will be several hundred dollars and aiming at the skylake-e enthusiast CPU market.

362sqmm is bigger than the GTX 1080 for reference.
AMD 480 is supposedly 232sqmm, for a 5.5TFlop part. 362sqmm is about 50% bigger so that doesn't match up. Jaguar cores would be tiny at 14nm
- the size estimate is wrong
- it is just a render so doesn't mean anything
- it is more powerful than 6TF but MS didn't want to say that for some reason
- it does have a larger CPU like Zen


If it does have zen I'd almost be annoyed at MS not allowing Scorpio exclusives. All that power would be wasted

Or it won't use 480 because 1200+mhz in a console is too damn hot.

 

[mrklaw]

Yeah true, but as you say it's unlikely that this is all they are doing with the machine. They will have to compete with the Neo graphics for one. Plus this thing is going to need to push (probably) Oculus at 90Hz.

I think given the time frame the Zen is most likely but we shall see.

VR is a good point and would need more CPU although PSVR seems to manage too. I hope it does have zen - it would definitely mark a move towards a non-crappy CPU and would be something that Sony would likely follow with neo 2.

 

[Negotiator]

I'm not getting my hopes up just yet. Even if it is Zen it might be the Laptop/netbook version. No doubt an improvement over Jaguar but nothing to really boast about.

Laptops don't have 8 Zen (or even Jaguar) cores.

There are some rumors that the PS4 Neo will have Zen LP (low power) @ 2.1 GHz. Feature-wise it should be the same as a regular Zen just with a lower clock speed (less heat/TDP/power).

 

[Negotiator]

Of course it does.

So it's just the Scorpio that ditched eSRAM in favor of GDDR5?

Programming-wise this must be a nightmare compared to OG PS4 vs PS4 Neo... I'm not sure how UWP works exactly (sounds like a high-level abstraction of some sort), but eSRAM utilization requires some low-level code optimizations. Ideally games should have 2 entirely different code paths.

edit: http://wccftech.com/cloud-powered-record-breaking-mmo-age-ascent-ported-easily-xb1-uwp-crossplay/

"What was your experience developing for the Xbox One? Did you have any troubles using the esRAM module?

It’s been very easy via UWP to port to the Xbox One. We don’t have access to esRAM via UWP, so that’s not been a concern or a help/hindrance at all. The simple fact is that if the game can be played on a $200 Chromebook, it can be played on an Xbox one without access to the specific hardware abilities of the device. Universality is the name of the game for us."

So much for "coding to the metal"...

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

Still think by 2017, if it's not $399 it's dead.

Xbox needs to cut some losses to get Xboxes into homes.

Like Phil said, it's about getting people on their service.

They can't afford to sell another $400+ console, they need some people jumping ship back to Xbox.

Question is, will they expect Scorpio sell like hotcake when it launch.
Since MS keep recommend people use 4k TV to play Scorpio, i think they may not expect it will sell a lot in short time.

 

[jet1911]

XB1 owners are already left behind. They have no way of playing VR games. That's why the claims of no exclusive games would be false from the beginning. There will be VR games and XB1 owners have no way of playing them. It's PR. You can't talk about how your console power lets developers create new experiences and then pretend that those experience's were possible anyway. They are just trying to avoid a PR shitstorm by saying what people want to hear. They say one thing and when the public reacts they say another. Your best bet with MS is to never really take their word for it and judge them by their actions.

I think it's a weird way to look at it. I mean device exclusives game are nothing new. Should all the PSVR games be available to non VR users too?

 

[scently]

Question is, will they expect Scorpio sell like hotcake when it launch.
Since MS keep recommend people use 4k TV to play Scorpio, i think they may not expect it will sell a lot in short time.

4ktvs are on the rise. The prices are coming down faster that 1080p tvs did. By next holiday there will be a lot of 4ktvs on the market and in homes and a consoles that can delivery 4k content-especially games in this context-will be just the thing to go along with it. MS is banking on that.

 

[Granadier]

XB1 owners are already left behind. They have no way of playing VR games. That's why the claims of no exclusive games would be false from the beginning. There will be VR games and XB1 owners have no way of playing them. It's PR. You can't talk about how your console power lets developers create new experiences and then pretend that those experience's were possible anyway. They are just trying to avoid a PR shitstorm by saying what people want to hear. They say one thing and when the public reacts they say another. Your best bet with MS is to never really take their word for it and judge them by their actions.

No one cares. VR will be a gimmick at this stage just like the Kinect was.

 

[Negotiator]

MS has nothing to gain from 4K. It's not like they're selling TVs... even Sony Bravias struggle sales-wise compared to Sammy/LG ones.

 

[Proelite]

Didnt Spencer say there won't be Scorpio exclusive games? That doesn't mean the game IS coming to Xb1.

Games can be Scorpio and PC only.

 

[Proelite]

MS has nothing to gain from 4K. It's not like they're selling TVs... even Sony Bravias struggle sales-wise compared to Sammy/LG ones.

Maybe they will have a marketing partnership in place with TV manufacturers. Seems to be mutually beneficial.

4k is a far bigger jump from 1080p than 1080p is from 720p. Its more than SD to 720p.

4k tvs will become mainstream quickly. The problem is that neither Scorpio nor Neo can provide 4k resolution AND better graphics/framerate.

 

[Tonky]

Didnt Spencer say there won't be Scorpio exclusive games? That doesn't mean the game IS coming to Xb1.

Games can be Scorpio and PC only.

Hmmm I didn't even think of this. That's a nice little loophole.

 

[Negotiator]

Maybe they will have a marketing partnership in place with TV manufacturers. Seems to be mutually beneficial.

4k is a far bigger jump from 1080p than 1080p is from 720p. Its more than SD to 720p.

4k tvs will become mainstream quickly. The problem is that neither Scorpio nor Neo can provide 4k resolution AND better graphics/framerate.

Well, I'd prefer 1080p60 Ultra compared to 4k30 med/high.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Laptops don't have 8 Zen (or even Jaguar) cores.

There are some rumors that the PS4 Neo will have Zen LP (low power) @ 2.1 GHz. Feature-wise it should be the same as a regular Zen just with a lower clock speed (less heat/TDP/power).

I know they don't and as you say there are no 8 core Jaguar laptops but that didn't stop AMD making a 8-core version for the console APUs.

All I'm saying is that it is unlikely a console limited in TDP/cost is going to have a desktop class CPU even if down clocked. More likely to be the APU version (aimed at high-end notebooks) which I guess will be like a next gen version of Jaguar with a 40% IPC improvement.

Look at the size of this, albeit early, Zen desktop chip:

 

[Proelite]

Well, I'd prefer 1080p60 Ultra compared to 4k30 med/high.

You're probably getting dynamic 1440p to 2160p on very high. 60fps.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

I don`t get the Scorpio. It`s a very powerful console, and that`s all good, but if every game on the original Xbox One will be compatible with the Scorpio, every game also have be very limited in order to match the old system requirements. It was the same problem with games made for both Xbox 360 and Xbox One. The developers of Dying Light even had to abandon the Xbox 360 in order to make a rock solid game for the Xbox One.

Thoughts?

The good news is, that as soon as devs are allowed to leave legacy platform XBOX One behind, Scorpio has a significant power advantage compared to PS4 Neo. The bad news is, that around the time this might happen, the PS4 Neo successor will be ready to go as well, and I suppose noone thinkgs that this one will be weaker than Scorpio.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Didnt Spencer say there won't be Scorpio exclusive games? That doesn't mean the game IS coming to Xb1.

Games can be Scorpio and PC only.

Hmmm I didn't even think of this. That's a nice little loophole.

"no one gets left behind "

 

[Sid]

The good news is, that as soon as devs are allowed to leave legacy platform XBOX One behind, Scorpio has a significant power advantage compared to PS4 Neo. The bad news is, that around the time this might happen, the PS4 Neo successor will be ready to go as well, and I suppose noone thinkgs that this one will be weaker than Scorpio.

Wouldn't the PS4 Neo successor be the PS5?

 

[mrklaw]

4ktvs are on the rise. The prices are coming down faster that 1080p tvs did. By next holiday there will be a lot of 4ktvs on the market and in homes and a consoles that can delivery 4k content-especially games in this context-will be just the thing to go along with it. MS is banking on that.

But people aren't buying them at the speed they bought original 'thin tvs'. They're more likely to get adoption as people naturally replace their existing sets. So while most TVs may be 4K in stores pretty soon, and most TVs sold might be 4K, it'll take 5-10 years until most TVs in homes are 4k

 

[soul creator]

I don`t get the Scorpio. It`s a very powerful console, and that`s all good, but if every game on the original Xbox One will be compatible with the Scorpio, every game also have be very limited in order to match the old system requirements. It was the same problem with games made for both Xbox 360 and Xbox One. The developers of Dying Light even had to abandon the Xbox 360 in order to make a rock solid game for the Xbox One.

Thoughts?

PC/PS4/XB1 developers also have to limit their games to weaker systems, yet PC games still generally look and run way better than on consoles. And since not every single game design necessarily needs to be a high-end technical tour de force, this will probably be fine for the vast majority of the library.

Of course, at some point, maybe there's some new revolution in game design and tech that makes a game completely impossible to run at all on the PS4/XB1, the way some games are unable to work on 360/PS3. I think at that point though, the PS4/XB1 would have been around long enough that people won't mind "leaving it behind" at that point.

If non-VR Scorpio/Neo exclusive games come out in 2017, that might be an issue. Scorpio/Neo exclusive games in 2019 doesn't seem as big of a deal though, since the older systems would be 6 years old at that point. For reference, the iPhone 4S is a little less than 5 years old currently. And the PS3 came out 6 years after the PS2 in the US.

 

[scently]

But people aren't buying them at the speed they bought original 'thin tvs'. They're more likely to get adoption as people naturally replace their existing sets. So while most TVs may be 4K in stores pretty soon, and most TVs sold might be 4K, it'll take 5-10 years until most TVs in homes are 4k

Adoption rate is climbing. I forget where I saw it but its tracking very high. Besides, MS and Sony are launching consoles this fall targeted at 4k, I can't imagine them doing so if there isn't a market for it, be it because of or as a result of. By the time Scorpio comes around I predict 4k tv will be a significant part of tv purchase, especially during holiday season 2017.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

How much time do they have to change anything? ...Until production occurs and chips are finalized??

What if more devs give input and say 6tf isnt enought for high fidelity 4k30fps games. That games would be 4k30fps with med/low settings. Barely any games at 4k or something like that.

You think they would change anything??

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Wouldn't the PS4 Neo successor be the PS5?

Opinions differ on that one. While most will agree with you on that one, some of us, including myself, think that Sony will continue their iterative console cycle and introduce a new SKU at some point which will share the same library with PS4 Neo, but not necessarily with vanilla PS4, too. They might "call" it PS5, but it wouln't have exclusive games, which basically is the main differentiator between two generations (not: power).

 

[SDMG]

I heard that the XOS has DDR4 in instead of DDR3

 

[Negotiator]

I heard that the XOS has DDR4 in instead of DDR3

Interesting. What about eSRAM?

 

[scently]

PC/PS4/XB1 developers also have to limit their games to weaker systems, yet PC games still generally look and run way better than on consoles. And since not every single game design necessarily needs to be a high-end technical tour de force, this will probably be fine for the vast majority of the library.

Of course, at some point, maybe there's some new revolution in game design and tech that makes a game completely impossible to run at all on the PS4/XB1, the way some games are unable to work on 360/PS3. I think at that point though, the PS4/XB1 would have been around long enough that people won't mind "leaving it behind" at that point.

If non-VR Scorpio/Neo exclusive games come out in 2017, that might be an issue. Scorpio/Neo exclusive games in 2019 doesn't seem as big of a deal though, since the older systems would be 6 years old at that point. For reference, the iPhone 4S is a little less than 5 years old currently. And the PS3 came out 6 years after the PS2 in the US.

Indeed. I think what most seem to forget is that the X1/PS4 still have quite a ways to go in what they can offer graphically. These are dx12 parts based on modern gpu microarchitecture. While they might limit the ability to run some really expensive effects, for the most part they run anything that can run on High-end PCs, only in less precision, lower resolution and with a litlle less effects running concurrently. One only needs to look at the games coming out of this E3 to see how much these consoles can still offer. First party efforts from Sony look outstanding, so do some from MS. Running these games at higher fidelity with higher level/res assets is the point of the Scorpio and to a lesser extent, the Neo.

 

[professor_t]

Animated gif responses to absurd comments on GAF are one of my favorite things.

 

[EvB]

I heard that the XOS has DDR4 in instead of DDR3

From where? Your uncle?

 

[Collateral22]

How much time do they have to change anything? ...Until production occurs and chips are finalized??

What if more devs give input and say 6tf isnt enought for high fidelity 4k30fps games. That games would be 4k30fps with med/low settings. Barely any games at 4k or something like that.

You think they would change anything??

That's the likely scenario. It would be better to go max settings 60fps at 1080p for the most part with majority of games.

 

[SDMG]

From where? Your uncle?

Didn't say it was true just something I heard I will try to find the info.

 

[Journey]

"no one gets left behind "

I don't get the concern though, there are several incredible looking games geared for high end PCs that make it to consoles, albeit watered down, but with Scorpio said games would closer match a high end PC. No one gets left behind, but you're playing a watered down 720p/30fps game with muddier textures, vs 1080p/60fps with gorgeous textures, foliage sans grass gate etc.