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Xbox Project Scorpio Announced - 6TFlops, 320GB/s - Fall 2017

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I think in any other scenario you guys are right, there's a market for premium.


But I don't think with Xbox, being in the position that they are, can sell a premium prices product.

It will fall flat on its face.

This is their chance to gain some much needed momentum. Gain a bunch of new customers, returning customers, etc and get people spending money on the new store.

Makes perfect sense.
 
If I see one more "people will just buy a PC" comment...

Phil even addressed it (or rather took the piss) in that video, the numbers are going to be negligible and even if they do they will still have to buy the games... It was rather amusing

And besides, why would console people suddenly start buying more expensive PCs when they can have comparable power for less money and still have the console experience they are perfectly happy with? "Because they will get a better experience on PC" then why have they not already got a PC?
 
Glorified G said:
$399 isn't a mass market price & would say it is a premium entry point. Xbox One will be $299 or lower a year & a half from Scorpio launching at the end of '17. Having a $100 difference is big enough. At most there will be higher priced models with bigger TB drives.

I know it sounds impressive now, but a 6TF console at then end of '17 is totally reasonable at $399.
Click to expand...

Don't get it twisted, I do think that launching at $399 is reasonable for the fact that it will be 4 years from XBO launch and tech gets better and cheaper as time goes on. I just think that they may launch at $499 but it is really dependent on Neo.
 
Samurai G0SU said:
there are people who buy bottled water and those who buy Water Filters. there is a market for both. Such as in the Living room, plug and play console is marketable as how a desktop PC is. They can exist with eachother.

Best part is that MS is providing content at each preferred method, so they don't lose because you become part of their MAU. It'll actually increase now since the access to their Exclusive content is now on the PC. There are plenty of kids/teens/teen-adults who only have a mid-low range PC and can barely afford a game versus a few hundred dollar console.

Just think if Brita sold bottled water. Perhaps, some might be underplaying convenience a little too much.

Humans like convenience. And we like options/variety. :P

Every time i see the Scorpio thread bumped, i get excited as if someone had some leaked nitty gritty details. but no, someone says xbox is doomed and everyone will move to PC. sigh....
Click to expand...

I drink tap baby!
 
VinFTW said:
I think in any other scenario you guys are right, there's a market for premium.


But I don't think with Xbox, being in the position that they are, can sell a premium prices product.

It will fall flat on its face.

This is their chance to gain some much needed momentum. Gain a bunch of new customers, returning customers, etc and get people spending money on the new store.

Makes perfect sense.
Click to expand...

Xbox Elite Controller?
 
Once Neo and Scorpio are out, both Sony and MS will have two tiers of performance, and these will require a large enough price difference for both have a place in the market. I don't see Scorpio or Neo launching below 499$, and especially Scorpio I could easily see being a 599$ device. Of course people have negative opinions about expensive consoles, but Scorpio and Neo aren't the typical console, these will be marketed as premium options alongside a more affordable option. MS/Sony still expect to sell the older models for those who think consoles should be <300$.
 
VinFTW said:
I think in any other scenario you guys are right, there's a market for premium.


But I don't think with Xbox, being in the position that they are, can sell a premium prices product.

It will fall flat on its face.

This is their chance to gain some much needed momentum. Gain a bunch of new customers, returning customers, etc and get people spending money on the new store.

Makes perfect sense.
Click to expand...
A division that is already under tremendous scrutiny is not going to automatically take a substantial loss in every model sold. This will have inherent value but don't be surprised at 600 price points because they can justify it by a BOM reaching close to 550 or more.

This machine from the architecture changes, the different selection of parts, the size of APU, and the switch to GDDR5x is not going to be cheap no matter how you slice it. It's a high end machine in the console space and is supposed to sit alongside the original Xbox One S.
 
Samurai G0SU said:
there are people who buy bottled water and those who buy Water Filters. there is a market for both. Such as in the Living room, plug and play console is marketable as how a desktop PC is. They can exist with eachother.

Best part is that MS is providing content at each preferred method, so they don't lose because you become part of their MAU. It'll actually increase now since the access to their Exclusive content is now on the PC. There are plenty of kids/teens/teen-adults who only have a mid-low range PC and can barely afford a game versus a few hundred dollar console.

Just think if Brita sold bottled water. Perhaps, some might be underplaying convenience a little too much.

Humans like convenience. And we like options/variety. :P

Every time i see the Scorpio thread bumped, i get excited as if someone had some leaked nitty gritty details. but no, someone says xbox is doomed and everyone will move to PC. sigh....
Click to expand...

Yep, such folly is rather quite astonishing
 
gamz said:
Xbox Elite Controller?
Click to expand...

Spot on. Those who purchased this will correlate positively with the audience for launch window Scorpio. Budget/mass market pricing would be leaving so much money on the table. There's no exclusive games here to force the issue, but the games out around launch will definitely be tuned to highlight the premium experience and for many, the price tag won't factor.

thuway said:
It's a high end machine in the console space and is supposed to sit alongside the original Xbox One S.
Click to expand...

Yet given a little time, pricing will fall nicely to a level attractive to the wider audience, and that's when we'll see the exclusives appear, when the userbase is strong enough to support them, followed later by a phasing out of the xb1s.
 
thuway said:
A division that is already under tremendous scrutiny is not going to automatically take a substantial loss in every model sold. This will have inherent value but don't be surprised at 600 price points because they can justify it by a BOM reaching close to 550 or more.

This machine from the architecture changes, the different selection of parts, the size of APU, and the switch to GDDR5x is not going to be cheap no matter how you slice it. It's a high end machine in the console space and is supposed to sit alongside the original Xbox One S.
Click to expand...

Honest question would YOU buy one at 600? If the answer is no, then that's exactly why they can't sell it at that price. Software is what will drive this thing and no one with a straight mind would buy it at 600. ALTHOUGH, I would buy it at 600 if it were 9tf. 6tf, this is last year tech.
 
General Lee said:
Once Neo and Scorpio are out, both Sony and MS will have two tiers of performance, and these will require a large enough price difference for both have a place in the market. I don't see Scorpio or Neo launching below 499$, and especially Scorpio I could easily see being a 599$ device. Of course people have negative opinions about expensive consoles, but Scorpio and Neo aren't the typical console, these will be marketed as premium options alongside a more affordable option. MS/Sony still expect to sell the older models for those who think consoles should be <300$.
Click to expand...
Bang on. Sony and Nintendo can release a machine with Scorpio performance as well. All three have access to the same vendor and the same road maps. The main issue isnt if it can be done - the biggest problem is finding a price point that gels well with long term ambitions and consumer interest.

Microsoft is not about to become Sony in thr PS3 Era and start burning piles of cash for install base. They will make a tiny profit or a tiny loss but it will always be more expensive than Neo to produce and more importantly, will be sold to the niche willing to spend big dollars.
 
Mindman said:
Sony, update your Neo specs and get a trailer ready for tonight! MS is bringing the heat this go 'round sounds like.
Click to expand...

you don't even know what Sony's Neo specs are... all you have is what's rumored. kind of a stupid thing to say. "hey, update the specs we heard about as a rumor."
 
A controller is different from a machine that provides the service you want to make money off your customers.

They're not REQUIRED to sell those controllers. They can because it's extra.
 
VinFTW said:
A controller is different from a machine that provides the service you want to make money off your customers.

They're not REQUIRED to sell those controllers. They can because it's extra.
Click to expand...

But for a few years, Scorpio itself is "just extra" - a better xb1, no exclusives (bar VR obvs)
 
toilet said:
Honest question would YOU buy one at 600? If the answer is no, then that's exactly why they can't sell it at that price. Software is what will drive this thing and no one with a straight mind would buy it at 600. ALTHOUGH, I would buy it at 600 if it were 9tf. 6tf, this is last year tech.
Click to expand...



I own a gaming PC and have zero interest in buying any other Xbox machine because all the Microsoft exclusives I can play on my platform of choice - PC. I can get performance much higher than Scorpio at this very second, but I'm waiting for HBM 2 to come out so I won't run into VRAM issues.


However I love the enthusiasm surround Scorpio and recognize that consoles drive developer ambition.

The big mistake your making is hedging your bets that Scorpio is actually targeted towards mainstream consumers. It's going to be positioned as a 4K HDR console that is optimal for VR. 599 is a realistic price point. This is a statement peice.
 
Thinking about it, I dont think announcing Scorpio will harm Xbox One S sales. Atleast in a meaningful way. When looking at the Xbox 360, people were still buying that console well after the xbox one released. If MS has been advertising these systems as one in the same ecosystem, which they have been very well, then people will still buy the Xbox one S knowing it will still play the games they want. Apple does this very well with iOS, there is the iphone 6 and the 6s. The Scorpio is the 6s, its a premium device with better hardware, faster cpu and gpu. The 6 is still there for consumers who want their basic needs met.

Its a smart move by both console manufacturers going forward.
 
thuway said:
I own a gaming PC and have zero interest in buying any other Xbox machine because all the Microsoft exclusives I can play on my platform of choice - PC. I can get performance much higher than Scorpio at this very second, but I'm waiting for HBM 2 to come out so I won't run into VRAM issues.


However I love the enthusiasm surround Scorpio and recognize that consoles drive developer ambition.

The big mistake your making is hedging your bets that Scorpio is actually targeted towards mainstream consumers. It's going to be positioned as a 4K HDR console that is optimal for VR. 599 is a realistic price point. This is a statement peice.
Click to expand...

MS can ill afford to make statements of this nature. $499 max.
 
Outrun said:
MS can ill afford to make statements of this nature. $499 max.
Click to expand...
You do realize all the PR Phil has been communicating is in line with what I've written? Scorpio is a machine targeted at hardcore gamers with 4K televisions and 4K gaming at its core. The APU has 4k written on the chip.
 
thuway said:
I own a gaming PC and have zero interest in buying any other Xbox machine because all the Microsoft exclusives I can play on my platform of choice - PC. I can get performance much higher than Scorpio at this very second, but I'm waiting for HBM 2 to come out so I won't run into VRAM issues.


However I love the enthusiasm surround Scorpio and recognize that consoles drive developer ambition.

The big mistake your making is hedging your bets that Scorpio is actually targeted towards mainstream consumers. It's going to be positioned as a 4K HDR console that is optimal for VR. 599 is a realistic price point. This is a statement peice.
Click to expand...

So you're a fellow pc gamer! Common sense should tell you that there's no way in hell a 6tf xbox will throw out 4k for AAA games. I stand by my word. NO WAY IN HELL this thing will be more than 399. If it is then I guess get used to a 2 console market.
 
MilkyJoe said:
Yep, such folly is rather quite astonishing
Click to expand...


You'd almost think Microsoft kicked their dog by semi-loathing gloom and doom forecasting out there. I grew up first playing an Atari then NES, Turbo GFX 16, SNEs, N64, N64 and Xbox, Xbox 360 and PS3 and now Xbox One and PS4 [plus a WiiU for the kids]. I'm larely beyond the console war nonsense and understand that having healthy competition in the market is for the benefit of gamers period. I just don't comprehend the idea of MS leaving the console business is a good thing for us. If anything it will be the opposite. We've seen Nintendo and Sony's behavior when they were top dog and saw some of the same Hubris displayed earlier this gen with Microsoft. Healthy competition keeps them all in check.

Sony made a huge turnaround this gen after their debacle with the PS3 last gen and I'm optimistic that Microsoft will do the same in regards to Scorpio. For better or for worse Nintendo has dug their own niche and in the long run we'll see how that plays out.
 
thuway said:
You do realize all the PR Phil has been communicating is in line with what I've written? Scorpio is a machine targeted at hardcore gamers with 4K televisions and 4K gaming at its core. The APU has 4k written on the chip.
Click to expand...
You have selective hearing and it's definitely a case of confirmation bias.

Go listen to the giant bomb interview from e3 very carefully.
 
MilkyJoe said:
If I see one more "people will just buy a PC" comment...

Phil even addressed it (or rather took the piss) in that video, the numbers are going to be negligible and even if they do they will still have to buy the games... It was rather amusing
Click to expand...

https://youtu.be/sf-waCLegOo?t=2400
I got a good laugh at that myself. Some how buying the game on Win10PC is supposed to hurt Microsoft or something. The interesting thing is that it would cost them more money to sell you a Scorpio console at a loss just to get that game sell.


And besides, why would console people suddenly start buying more expensive PCs when they can have comparable power for less money and still have the console experience they are perfectly happy with? "Because they will get a better experience on PC" then why have they not already got a PC?
Click to expand...

Exactly. I get a kick out of the "time to sell my XB1 comments". I have probably bought a handful of games at the full $60 retail price. The rest were deep discounted games, EA Access, and free games with Gold. I now have over 100 games on my XB1 and since I'm all digital they will be there for me when I move to Scorpio. If I went the PC route I'm starting from scratch playing Solitaire.
 
thuway said:
You do realize all the PR Phil has been communicating is in line with what I've written? Scorpio is a machine targeted at hardcore gamers with 4K televisions and 4K gaming at its core. The APU has 4k written on the chip.
Click to expand...

You know there's an AMD card selling for 199 right now
ok it's not out yet
that does 5.15 TF? In a year and a half, you can sell a 6TF Scorpio for 399. It's not far-fetched at all.
 
VinFTW said:
You have selective hearing and it's definitely a case of confirmation bias.

Go listen to the giant bomb interview from e3 very carefully.
Click to expand...
What? You mentioned Microsoft is going to take a loss on each unit sold. I'm merely pointing out that Scorpios rumored specs aren't cheap and you cannot equate a one year later launch from Neo as a signal that chips have magically become cheaper. Unless another shrink happens (it won't) - The largest issue Scorpio faces is the power draw, heat, and size of the box.

In fact I just read an ARS Technica article that stated that if Scorpio uses Vega it will not be cheap.

From what we know right now, the hardware specs simply don't support that level of performance.

That's not to mention that, if Microsoft is going with Vega, Scorpio is going to be a very expensive machine indeed.
Click to expand...

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/06/xbox-project-scorpio-hardware-specs-can-it-do-4k/
 
GinoFelino said:
You know there's an AMD card selling for 199 right now
ok it's not out yet
that does 5.15 TF? In a year and a half, you can sell a 6TF Scorpio for 399. It's not far-fetched at all.
Click to expand...

The GPU you just quoted at me only has 4 GB of memory. The Scorpio is rumored to have not 8, but 12 GB of GDDR5x.

The GPUs in these machines are also NOT going to be running at desktop clocks and will never come close to those advertised specs because consoles aren't meant to hold that kind of heat.

The next big GPU AMD is designing is the Vega and the Scorpio appears to be a downclocked version of it. Similar to how Neo is a downclocked Polaris.

I'm only trying to point out how ridiculous it is to create an expectation that Scorpio will come in at 399 just by simply looking at PC parts and not taking into account console clocks, thermal limits, and the actual process node this is all being made out.

GPUs and CPUs don't just magically increase in performance by 50 to 60 percent year over year and become cheaper to boot.
 
thuway said:
What? You mentioned Microsoft is going to take a loss on each unit sold. I'm merely pointing out that Scorpios rumored specs aren't cheap and you cannot equate a one year later launch from Neo as a signal that chips have magically become cheaper. Unless another shrink happens (it won't) - The largest issue Scorpio faces is the power draw, heat, and size of the box.

In fact I just read an ARS Technica article that stated that if Scorpio uses Vega it will not be cheap.



http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/06/xbox-project-scorpio-hardware-specs-can-it-do-4k/
Click to expand...

But Vega should come in at much higher than 6TF, no?

thuway said:
The GPU you just quotes at me only has 4 GB of memory. The Scorpio is rumored to have not 8, but 12 GB of GDDR5x.

The GPUs in these machines are also NOT going to be running at desktop clocks and will never come close to those advertised specs because consoles aren't meant to hold that kind of heat.

The next big GPU AMD is designing is the Vega and the Scorpio appears to be a downclocked version of it. Similar to how Neo is a downclocked Polaris.
Click to expand...
But 10 >6TF is quite the downclock, compared to 5.15 > 4.2TF. Also, 12 GDDR5X in Holiday 2017 is comparable to PS4's 8 GDDR5 in 2013, and PS4 managed to launch at 399..
 
thuway said:
You do realize all the PR Phil has been communicating is in line with what I've written? Scorpio is a machine targeted at hardcore gamers with 4K televisions and 4K gaming at its core. The APU has 4k written on the chip.
Click to expand...

No it is not.

Yes, he says it is a premium experience, ergo, it will cost more.

How much more is debatable.

He has not defined the price. You are going high based on hardware spec, others are saying $499 based on historical sweet spot price.
 
GinoFelino said:
But Vega should come in at much higher than 6TF, no?


But 10 >6 is quite the downclock, compared to 5.15 > 4.2
Click to expand...
Noone knows but I suspect the machine is using a cut down Vega with downclocked CU's. Digital Foundry did an excellent video on it.

All these consoles, no matter NX, NEO, or Scorpio have to take a conservative approach to heat and performance or else you will run into RROD and YLOD.

Desktop users on the other hand put these GPUs inside machines that are much larger and have multiple fans on not only the GPU but also around the case. It's premature to rake a desktop part and equate that to console performance. It's a mistaken to look at the specs of a 200 dollar PC GPU and think Neo and Scorpio are going to magically reach that performance level without massive considerations.
 
I think it'll be $499 minimum once you factor in all the other components. Break it down if you think otherwise. I don't expect MS will sell it at cost either.
 
If Sony can sell the ps4 at 399 in 2013 and make money off if, I see Nooooooo reason why MS can't sell the Scorpio for 399 in 2017, and lose some money off each console sold.
 
VinFTW said:
I am being realistic, it's over a year away.

Considering neo might be out for a while ahead of it, and have a possible price drop, combined with cheaper costs for parts, I can easily see MS selling it at $399 by holiday 2017
Click to expand...

This.. 450 absolute max
 
VinFTW said:
If Sony can sell the ps4 at 399 in 2013 and make money off if, I see Nooooooo reason why MS can't sell the Scorpio for 399 in 2017, and lose some money off each console sold.
Click to expand...

I'm personally not saying they can't, my opinion is that they won't because they don't need to given what Scorpio is/offers initially.
 
VinFTW said:
If Sony can sell the ps4 at 399 in 2013 and make money off if, I see Nooooooo reason why MS can't sell the Scorpio for 399 in 2017, and lose some money off each console sold.
Click to expand...


You do realize the CPU PS4 and Xbox One chose was literally a modified and cheapened version of a Netbook CPU? That left all the budget to go towards the GPU. Also, something historic happened in 2013- RAM density doubled so Sony got lucky with 8 GB of GDDR5.


In 2016, we just had a major process node shrink from 28 nm to 14 nm - hence the creation of these new consoles. This doesn't happen but once every 4 years or more.

On top of all this Microsoft wants to put in a modified desktop CPU. The parts arent cheap. Anyway we will have to agree to disagree. This is a Luxury Xbox, the mainstream machine is the Xbox One. I don't think Scorpio replaces anything, it just gives a high end option. Similar the Elite versus normal X1 controller.
 
Just found this

I dont know how to embed tweets, or if you even can... but

Eric X @ThatDudeizEric
@XboxP3 with the Xbox Scorpio, is the 4k mandatory or can devs go for 1080p 60fps with massively upgraded visuals and upscale to 4k?

Phil Spencer &#10004; @XboxP3
@ThatDudeizEric We'll talk more about this later but we never said we'd mandate 4K framebuffer, we won't.
5:34 AM - 20 Jun 2016
12 12 Retweets 20 20 likes

http://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-...ct-scorpio-wont-force-games-use-4k-resolution



thuway said:
This is a Luxury Xbox, the mainstream machine is the Xbox One. I don't think Scorpio replaces anything, it just gives a high end option. Similar the Elite versus normal X1 controller.
Click to expand...

just for a little whi
 
If they were smart as me they would have a full windows os on the box. If they want to blur the line between pc/console they should go all out.
 
GinoFelino said:
You know there's an AMD card selling for 199 right now
ok it's not out yet
that does 5.15 TF? In a year and a half, you can sell a 6TF Scorpio for 399. It's not far-fetched at all.
Click to expand...

Thats polaris, for this to be 6TF it has to be vega, which isnt going to be a similar price. Added that its GDDR5X over GDDR5. This is a premium product, and the fact they launched the one S proves it. The one S is a reasonably priced product for the mass market, and this is a pure by the numbers "microsoft has the fastest console" to 'win' arguments. It aint gonna be cheap. If it is then it'll be the worst decision microsoft can make. The xbox division already makes a loss. Scorpio isn't being made because Xbox is profitable, but its a reaction to them loosing the console space and to go with it loosing money. I get that you think Microsoft are on your side, but they aren't. The Xbox was created as a way to get windows into the living room, the box that all your media goes through, which is why Microsoft allowed a non-profitable division to exist. XBox One was supposed to be the end goal but it failed miserably.
 
Jedipottsy said:
Thats polaris, for this to be 6TF it has to be vega, which isnt going to be a similar price. Added that its GDDR5X over GDDR5. This is a premium product, and the fact they launched the one S proves it. The one S is a reasonably priced product for the mass market, and this is a pure by the numbers "microsoft has the fastest console" to 'win' arguments. It aint gonna be cheap. If it is then it'll be the worst decision microsoft can make. The xbox division already makes a loss. Scorpio isn't being made because Xbox is profitable, but its a reaction to them loosing the console space and to go with it loosing money. I get that you think Microsoft are on your side, but they aren't. The Xbox was created as a way to get windows into the living room, the box that all your media goes through, which is why Microsoft allowed a non-profitable division to exist. XBox One was supposed to be the end goal but it failed miserably.
Click to expand...

Where'd you get that from?

And yeah, their intention of making this thing powerful as an end in itself is pretty obvious.
 
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