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XSEED localizer upset Japanese devs removed accidental KKK reference (Kotaku)
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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excelsiorlef
Member
This was my point from the start. Guy did something stupid people strongly disagree with (but with little actual impact), pitchforks are out, he's the devil, assumptions are made, any rumor that fits that narrative is accepted as fact.
Even XSEED is being dragged through the mud
The circle of GAF
No it wasn't...
The Trans thing is murkier, the topic of this thread is not.... You came in to defend the guy long before the transgender incident ever got mentioned.
YianGaruga
Banned
It's not realistic to expect normal people to be versed in 4chan humor
The game in its orignal form had 2ch humor in it. who do you think it's made for?
??
No it wasn't...
The Trans thing is murkier, the topic of this thread is not.... You came in to defend the guy long before the transgender incident ever got mentioned.
I'm not even defending him! He did a stupid thing! I fully agree!
I'm talking how people ACT on GAF when there's a person they don't agree with.
It's not realistic to expect normal people to be versed in 4chan humor
Would normal people be playing Akiba's Trip?
CannonFodder52
Member
As an aside, I've only started watching Retsupurae's Kickstarter Nonstarters recently and this thread makes me think of this video, but I can't fit it into the conversation.
That's a good series, enjoy it.
OT: weird mound to lie on
Zeyphersan
Banned
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=184878026&postcount=1246
There are a ton of people applauding his post, though.
Didn't mean to minimize your justified pushback, it's just there were more people praising his post than I expected
This was my point from the start. Guy did something stupid people strongly disagree with (but with little actual impact), pitchforks are out, he's the devil, assumptions are made, any rumor that fits that narrative is accepted as fact.
Even XSEED is being dragged through the mud
The circle of GAF
guy thought keeping the letters "KKK" in a game was funny because of "shock value" and then claimed it was censorship when changed despite the fact that it wouldn't have had the impact the devs wanted when viewed from a western perspective and that the devs themselves were the ones who changed it. that's more than stupid. and as for xseed being dragged through the mud and him having little impact, i'd actually like to play trails of cold steel 3 and would feel way better about it if he had nothing to do with that project.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Would normal people be playing Akiba's Trip?
Well...
I've always kind of wondered if people in other countries have heard of the KKK. Judging from this, I guess it might be safe to say that at least Japanese people wouldn't have.
Outside of any appearances in major Hollywood movies, probably not
SolicitorPirate
Member
So, like... did this guy violate his NDA and go public about this completely manufactured non-controversy?
From an article by Patrick Klepak in 2015, the same guy was given permission by his company to publically criticise a decision to remove references to characters' ages. I'm not sure if there was a similar agreement in this instance however
excelsiorlef
Member
The game in its orignal form had 2ch humor in it. who do you think it's made for?
??
I'm not even defending him! He did a stupid thing! I fully agree!
First thing you did was compare this guy to the Dev who GAF made cry and say this is why devs don't post here....
Didn't mean to minimize your justified pushback, it's just there were more people praising his post than I expected
I know you weren't, I was just bragging.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
This was my point from the start. Guy did something stupid people strongly disagree with (but with little actual impact), pitchforks are out, he's the devil, assumptions are made, any rumor that fits that narrative is accepted as fact.
Even XSEED is being dragged through the mud
The circle of GAF
Guy did something solely to cause controversy and outed himself by publicly announcing this shit.
And then you came in defending him against the controversy he himself expected.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I wish I could say I'm surprised, but this is such a blatantly Tom thing to do. To say his views on censorship are extreme is a massive understatement.
"Hill to die on" comes from Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign where she gave a speech that said something along the lines of: "The progress we've made cannot die on the hill of ignorance.", and after she lost the election it eventually metamorphosed to "Hill to die on", because she's Hillary, you see?
lul
Zeyphersan
Banned
I know you weren't, I was just bragging.
Brag away, friend
"Hill to die on" comes from Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign where she gave a speech that said something along the lines of: "The progress we've made cannot die on the hill of ignorance.", and after she lost the election it eventually metamorphosed to "Hill to die on", because she's Hillary, you see?
lul
what a haly to die on
The game in its orignal form had 2ch humor in it
??
I'm not even defending him! He did a stupid thing!
Isn't Persona 5's Phan-Site also a reference to 2ch style of posting? Every post is "Anon:" and such, and I didn't find anything like that so far. And that is a game criticized by its portrayal of LGBT characters.
They could go with something like "There are no girls on the internet". Same origin (I think?), but people who don't go there wouldn't mistake it for something it's not.
Everyone would get this one throwaway line nobody cares about, and the original intent would be preserved.
Maybe spend more time trying to find better replacements instead of writing long posts about why you refuse to change it. You know, like a localizer should.
Maybe spend more time trying to find better replacements instead of writing long posts about why you refuse to change it. You know, like a localizer should.
The original localized line was "Nobody asked you, you goddamn trap" IIRC. This was said as a venomous response online to the character in question.
How would you phrase this in another way?
I mean, there's the MMORPG: Many Men Online Role Playing Girls joke...but I can't think of many one-word terms that fit as well as trap in context does.
YianGaruga
Banned
First thing you did was compare this guy to the Dev who GAF made cry and say this is why devs don't post here....
And that's defending him how?
The thread I linked went on to talk about how people on GAF and the internet in general behave in situations like this. That is what I was referencing.
We can't make you be nice.
For the various folks who'd like to blame moderation for allowing people to act cruelly, that's something you should probably know. More to the point, you don't want us to try and make you be nice, because we have blunt tools, and the way we'd do it is tighten up on banning negative, hostile comments.
You don't want us to do that, because you're guilty of it. Go look in your reading history right now. If you can't find a single comment that someone might think was nasty or unpleasant, I will be deeply surprised. That means the rest of you would be banned.
No rule we can put up, no pogrom of bans, no effort on our part can make you change the way you talk to other people. I've spent a lot of time on OT trying to convince people not to be assholes directly to each other, with little success, so the idea that we're going to stop people from being assholes about someone who isn't here or made promises they didn't keep, is a fantasy.
The only person that can make you behave better, make you remember that there are people on the other side of the keyboard, is you. And you can't make anyone else behave better, either. Each of us can only be responsible for ourselves.
It's easy to blame "GAF" as if the software and hardware were making the comments. It's easy to blame moderation, although it's you guys who create all the content, not us. It's less easy to take a look at your own posting and make changes. But if you want GAF to be a nicer place, that's literally your only option, because GAF is a collective of thousands of different voices, and those voices create the chorus that people perceive.
So keep throwing stones -- at developers, at moderators, at your fellow posters -- but you're part of the problem, and rather than deal with your part in the problem, you're engaging in negativity about other posters, the forum, and its staff. Try, instead, treating fellow posters, developers, and staff as if they were people. Consider that your funny, cruel joke is less funny and more cruel, and maybe don't post it. Moderate your language and instead of calling people scam artists, or shoving your head up your ass in self-righteousness about your consumer rights, consider that the company you're railing against is really just people trying to make something neat and failing rather than a conspiracy to rob you and make you play bad games.
It's somewhat ironic who this quote is from and who this thread is about, but anway. That was my point
SapphiCine
Member
Of course it was Tom.
Wonder if H. Protagonist will comment.
Wonder if H. Protagonist will comment.
traffiktiger
Member
The localizer sounds like he needs a nap. This sounds like a decision someone would make after not sleeping for a few days. Why would he pick this battle? What personal value does he really violate here by translating it the way the developers want him to?
-Mutsukki-
Member
what the fuck
Usually the whole "censorship" thing is already really dumb because more than half of stuff they claim to be censorship aren't
but this is a whole new level of fuckery holy crap
Usually the whole "censorship" thing is already really dumb because more than half of stuff they claim to be censorship aren't
but this is a whole new level of fuckery holy crap
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
With regard to the "trap" thing, to be fair aside from actual content concerns you often have to worry about character limits and that can make writing around problematic shit very difficult depending on the amount of flexibility you can get relative to UI and schedule adjustments. If the intent is to show a character being an asshole through language then on top of all that sometimes it's just expedient to leave it in. It doesn't necessarily mean loc is being assholes
The original localized line was "Nobody asked you, you goddamn trap" IIRC. This was said as a venomous response online to the character in question.
How would you phrase this in another way?
I'm not a localizer, I don't get paid to find a different way.
But it's a single line that's just meant to convey they're harsh and they don't believe it's a woman, there are several ways to do that. "Fuck off, there are no girls on the internet". Done. It probably doesn't sound very good, but again, it's not my job.
I can understand that he disagrees, and thinks it should be kept that way, but I'm not arguing against him, I'm arguing against the idea that this line couldn't ever be replaced while keeping the same meaning and reference. That's nonsense.
I've always kind of wondered if people in other countries have heard of the KKK. Judging from this, I guess it might be safe to say that at least Japanese people wouldn't have.
I'm sure they have, but it's one thing to have heard about it a few times during a history class, and another to have it as the single meaning of "kkk" in your head.
In Brazil, a lot of people laugh with "kkk", for example.
Why do you need a one word term?The original localized line was "Nobody asked you, you goddamn trap" IIRC. This was said as a venomous response online to the character in question.
How would you phrase this in another way?
I mean, there's the MMORPG: Many Men Online Role Playing Girls joke...but I can't think of many one-word terms that fit as well as trap in context does.
Just say something like "Pffft there's no girls on the internet" (which is also an internet/4chan thing) and be done with it. You get the same effect without something seen as a slur.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
And that's defending him how?
The thread I linked went on to talk about how people on GAF and the internet in general behave in situations like this. That is what I was referencing.
It's somewhat ironic who this quote is from and who this thread is about, but anway. That was my point
You are transparent as fuck man
Your point was tacked on after someone else brought up something you feel would suffice as a substitute and people bashing an unreleased game based on predictions and hearsay IS NOT COMPARABLE to this situation.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Why do you need a one word term?
Just say something like "Pffft there's no girls on the internet" (which is also an internet/4chan thing) and be done with it. You get the same effect without something seen as a slur.
Isnt "nekama" a word that also has a negative connotation?
Edit: I am honestly asking. I dont know much Japanese.
YianGaruga
Banned
You are transparent as fuck man
Your point was tacked on after someone else brought up something you feel would suffice as a substitute and people bashing an unreleased game based on predictions and hearsay IS NOT COMPARABLE to this situation.
???
What do you think my intention is exactly? I really want KKK in Akiba's Beat, which I won't even buy because it looks boring as hell, or something?
Don't assume shit about me
This is what I was talking about from the start, believe it or not. No other place on the internet discussing this topic is so vicious and nasty as Neogaf is, and that is what my first post in this topic was about.
So, like... did this guy violate his NDA and go public about this completely manufactured non-controversy?
No. The company is pretty open letting him vent out on the forums whenever he disagrees with localization choices.
- Why are you still staying at XSEED?
Because XSEED has gainfully employed me for over seven years now, my coworkers are all great people (even if I strongly disagree with them on a lot of things), we work on great games, we have a really solid approach to quality localization, and I mean, Ive been given carte blanche to air my grievances in public! What other company would even consider something like that? The downside of facing censorship issues bothers me on principle, sure, but there are a mountain of upsides to counterbalance that, and I really cant stress enough that overall, this is a great company to work for, and the people here really do care a great deal about video games.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Lipschultz says that, because KKK witches isnt being removed to aid the players comprehension, but to avoid offending people and to avoid the possibility of retailers protesting, it infringes on the games artistic value.
Holy shit, this guy is a fucking idiot. He seemingly didn't understand the original reference or intention of the developer and wanted to include it because he liked the shock value that it had in English, despite that fact that it was just a cute pun in Japanese and did not give the same impression at all.
I hope this guy never finds work in this industry again. Gives people who work in localization a bad name.
igordennis
Member
Didn't mean to minimize your justified pushback, it's just there were more people praising his post than I expected
I remember that, you will notice the thread was pretty long by that point and most of the people still reading and posting in it were in the camp *for as much fanservice in my games as possible* iirc because they really REALLY care about their fanservice. So the responses weren't surprising to me back then.
Marmaladefire
Member
Isnt "nekama" a word that also has a negative connotation?
The whole idea behind the comment is gross and rude (Yes, I understand that it is parody of common 2ch convo and not the developer trying to be hateful, etc), so it's really just a sliding scale of offensiveness in terms of translating it. "Shut up, there aren't any girls on the internet" would have been fine, textbox willing.
Wouldn't you prefer NeoFAG? It's, like, GAF mirrored. Shock value lol.From now on I'll call this place NeoRAF
The shock value people may experience as they are reminded of innocent relatives who were killed is really funny to me, and will therefore be the restaurant I choose to eat at
Isnt "nekama" a word that also has a negative connotation?
Edit: I am honestly asking. I dont know much Japanese.
It does, but from my understanding, it's only used to say someone is a man pretending to be a woman online, which makes it a lot more specific. If someone's an asshole and wants to offend a trans woman by saying she's not really a woman, this isn't the term they'd use. Which is not quite the same for trap, which can be seen as degrading for trans women.
No. The company is pretty open letting him vent out on the forums whenever he disagrees with localization choices.
so he gets to have his cake and eat it too, yuck
Glitter and Gold
Banned
Shame he's bringing Xseed down. I mean obviously we can't tell if its the case from the outside looking in, but it always seems like it's him vs everyone else on cases like this.
Chairmanchuck
Member
The whole idea behind the comment is gross and rude (Yes, I understand that it is parody of common 2ch convo and not the developer trying to be hateful, etc), so it's really just a sliding scale of offensiveness in terms of translating it. "Shut up, there aren't any girls on the internet" would have been fine, textbox willing.
It does, but from my understanding, it's only used to say someone is a man pretending to be a woman online, which makes it a lot more specific. If someone's an asshole and wants to offend a trans woman by saying she's not really a woman, this isn't the term they'd use. Which is not quite the same for trap, which can be seen as degrading for trans women.
Thank you, you two.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
???
What do you think my intention is the exactly? I really want KKK in Akiba's Beat, which I won't even buy because it looks boring as hell, or something?
Don't assume shit about me
This is what I was talking about from the start, believe it or not. No other place on the internet discussing this topic is so vicious and nasty as Neogaf is.
All I know is for some reason you felt compelled to wag your finger at people for being mean and used a shitty example to compare
This is what I was talking about from the start, believe it or not. No other place on the internet discussing this topic is so vicious and nasty as Neogaf is
I don't believe that for one second.
???
What do you think my intention is exactly? I really want KKK in Akiba's Beat, which I won't even buy because it looks boring as hell, or something?
Don't assume shit about me
This is what I was talking about from the start, believe it or not. No other place on the internet discussing this topic is so vicious and nasty as Neogaf is, and that is what my first post in this topic was about.
Yian you made a bad comparison, probably in equal faith, and people immediately picked up on it. You got off on the wrong foot entirely. That's on you.
InsaneTiger
Member
Tom is wrong. He doesn't seem to understand what context is. If used some word or acronym from another country because it sounded cool then found out it meant something really bad or derogatory in some other country I would make a change too.
Let Tom die on this hill, unfortunately there are others out there to make him feel like a martyr.
Let Tom die on this hill, unfortunately there are others out there to make him feel like a martyr.
Yeah I call bullshit on that as well.I don't believe that for one second.
Tom is wrong. He doesn't seem to understand what context is. If used some word or acronym from another country because it sounded cool then found out it meant something really bad or derogatory in some other country I would make a change too.
Let Tomdie on his sworddie on this hill, unfortunately there are others out there to make him feel like a martyr.
wrong idiom bro
InsaneTiger
Member
wrong idiom bro
Thanks for the correction.
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