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Yoshimitsu, Rock and Talim's souls still burn
- Thread starter Brelston
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The-Switcher
Banned
Why do we need Hwang again?
Yung Seung is already in there.
Yung Seung is already in there.
Star Power
Member
GarthVaderUK said:
Transcending History And the World: The Official Soul Calibur IV Thread
Die Squirrel Die
Member
Star Power said:
There you go.
The-Switcher
Banned
Star Power said:
Double fixed
VeritasVierge
Member
Then you area shame to my gender. Off with your head!!!NoirYuki said:
Oh, and A Black Falcon, stop making pretend that cultural influences were the motivation for Talim's overall outfit. Give me a break. As states previously, it was designed to appeal to little nerd boys with cash to spend. That's the bottom line.
Crazymoogle
Member
Acid08 said:
He also plays very different. More than Siegfried/Nightmare, that's for sure.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Boobcalibur Boobs IV: The BoobeningGarthVaderUK said:
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Wait, when is the game coming out?
Ah, July 29th.
So it goes:
GTAIV
MGS4
SC4
Hmm.
Ah, July 29th.
So it goes:
GTAIV
MGS4
SC4
Hmm.
MisterHero
Super Member
now featuringSapientWolf said:
Yes, because wanting to play a good game without endless pandering to the lowest common denominator is such a difficult request to fulfill.Xapati said:
Sorry for having a little bit more respectability than you do and finding it slightly offensive that Namco can't sell its game on the merits of its gameplay alone and felt the need to over-sex everything in this iteration. EVEN VOLDO.
ThirstyFly
Member
The-Switcher said:
They really don't play alike. It's not like Ast & Rock.
AquaticSquirrel
Member
The-Switcher said:
Don't make me hurt you...or wall of text you with reasons why Yun-Sung is not even a poor mans Hwang. They are very very different, both in terms of fighting style and personality. Yuun Sung sucks.
EmCeeGramr
Member
I really dislike how overboard theyve gone with everyone's costumes. Add vader and yoda for ultimate tackiness.
Star Power
Member
I hope they bring back 3rd Costumes. Taki's 3rd Costume from SCII was badass.
Star Power
Member
It's not like other series are immune from this.. look what they did to Vanessa from VF4 to VF5:
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They bleached her skin!!
They bleached her skin!!
VeritasVierge
Member
PimpbaaPimpbaa said:
Official Forum Cocksucker
(Today, 07:35 PM)
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twinturbo2
butthurt Heat fan
Waya-Hime? Yeah, at least that cameo kinda made sense, along with Sophie's Ki costume and Cassie's Valkyrie costume.Star Power said:
A Black Falcon said:It's spelled Filipino, actually. Phillipines is the nation, Filipino the nationality.
In short, that's not a "fact". That's what you believe because of the culture you come from. There is no objective human cultural context for clothes; this fact is shown by the tribes of people who wear nothing at all. What clothes are considered appropriate or not is entirely driven by what culture they come from, and this is largely determined, if you go back far enough, from the climate that culture originated in. Warm climate, few clothes. Cold climate, many clothes. It's really as simple as that... and European cultures such as ours are cold-weather cultures at their core.
The issue that this raises, then, is which cultural context a game supposedly set in the past should set itself in. Most do the easy thing and use our present culture as a basis, just slightly modified to fit the different technology level. This is why most videogame characters in games set in the "past" or worlds based on our past think and act like people of today: It is what the market expects. It's also much easier to do that than to try to create something that is a truly believable and internally consistent fantasy world which understands the history of the actual time period from our history it is inspired by, considers the changes to that culture that it is making -- magic, greater women's rights, whatever -- and then implements them evenly and properly. Instead of doing this, two major things are done:
-First, costume designs are designed to appeal to the modern-day fanbase of the game (or anime, movie, etc) and have nothing to do with believability (of what people from that place may have actually worn if the place were real), the plausibility of using that costume in combat, or anything else.
-Second, people act like the people of today and do not think the way people of the time would have thought. Humans in the past had the exact same level of intelligence as we do now -- they are humans too, they were just as smart as we are -- but they had a much lower level of knowledge about the world than we do, and their viewpoints on the world and reality were very different from ours. We can't fully understand how they thought, but we can try. It is very hard to do this, however, and the harder you try the more you confuse your audience. As a result, this issue, applying modern-day values to people in the past, is really the greatest issue that the fantasy genre does, should face, but does not. It is very easy to do this, really, even when trying not to. Most designers don't even begin to try (and most audiences probably don't want them to).
Game designers always have to deal with these two issues in fantasy games. Perfect "accuracy" to the real world (with magic) might not be good, of course -- if you want stronger roles for female characters in your game than most major nations had at the time, for instance, greater alterations are necessary. Doing things like that is often good. I'm definitely not saying that they must have perfect accuracy to the real world or something like that. I just want a world that is believable and makes sense -- where the rules that are there seem to actually fit. These conflicting impulses can be managed... just look at Hibiki (LB2) or Nakoruru (SS series). Rimururu too, though I like her SSIII/IV costume better than her SSV and beyond costume. Good character designs, great characters. While it is in a stupid way entertaining, you don't need panty shots every ten seconds (as the Soul series does) and ridiculous costumes to make a good female fighting game character... Samurai Shodown does have Mina, of course, but that's just one character, not a broad trend. Those characters also do a relatively credible job of realistic attitude too, though of course modern influences cannot be avoided. But maybe those benefit from being largely set in Japan (and with a largely Japanese cast), which a Japanese development team will understand better. I mean, in SS1, set in the mid 1700s, one of the stages is somehow set in San Francisco which is somehow part of the USA at the time... and there's that American Ninja character... um, yeah. Right.(they can certainly do it if they want. It just comes off as silly.)
The Soul series, in both of those categories, definitively leans towards the "forget believability" and "forget history" approaches, for the most part, though bits of actual history are mixed in. The people act like modern people, not 1500s ones (as with virtually all fantasy outside of novels). And the costumes look like modern fantasies, not ones people of the time might have worn. This applies to every character in the game pretty much equally. How they think, though... every character does have an impressively deep backstory. It's one of the great things about the series, really. Some things make no sense, of course (Sophitia and Cassandra believing in the ancient Greek (Olympian) Gods, for instance), but other things work. The good fantasy book serieses are far better of course, but outside of that, the Soul series is probably about as good as anything in characterizations.
I can't help but wonder how these people keep managing to travel all over the world so many times in such short periods of time, though... :lol
Anyway, Talim. Talim's Filipino. The Phillipines are in Southeast Asia, a very warm (and wet) part of the world. In that part of the world, before European contact people generally didn't wear much clothes on account of the heat. Clothing originated as a response to cold, after all. In places where it was less cold, people wore less, until Europeans arrived and started forcing them to wear more. So what would pre-1500s Filipino women have worn? Likely as not, just a skirt with nothing above the waist (and probably no underwear under the skirt either, though that's pretty much a universal thing... loincloths existed worldwide from very early on (usually worn more by men than women), but the modern-style underwear all Soul Calibur characters wear (sans elastic I would hope, but modern)? That's a modern invention, weird as that certainly seems.). In Thailand and Cambodia for instance women did often wear tops, but they were just small wrap-type things. Though Talim's shirt is looser than those would be and also covers her shoulders, it clearly comes from that concept (and hopefully from Phillipine sources, I don't know). Obviously they could no more do toplessness in a modern game and try to get away with that T rating in the US than they could put in full dismemberment (when you hit someone with a sword, they come apart...) and expect to get on Japanese shelves.
Perhaps even more importantly, however, audiences don't really want realistic fantasy worlds. People best understand the culture they are in. So, say, take your average fantasy RPG. It does not reflect Medieval culture. If it did, people would have major problems understanding it. Many people simply would not be able to understand a culture where modern materialism simply did not apply, where to most people concerns about whether a thing (such as an idea, scientific discovery, or a technological improvement) was religiously permissible mattered more than whether it would improve people's lives or increase human knowledge... though really, I think a game set in classical Greek Sparta, that actually tried to represent actual Spartan culture of the time, could be very interesting. For instance, why isn't there a great Peloponnesian War game (reality based or with fantasy elements)? I love fantasy, and Medieval fantasy (fantasy is probably my favorite genre in general in fact), but it'd be pretty great to see a bit more variety of settings.
And no, something like Castlevania which randomly mixes Ancient Greek, Medieval, Renaissance, Modern, and other elements all together doesn't count.
Anyway, so we get the costumes that we have, in games like Soul Calibur, conglomerates inspired by various times and places that wouldn't quite fit in any of them, but are supposed to look cool anyway. In Talim's case, at least in Soul Calibur II and Soul Calibur III, the results were good... she got costumes that looked like something that would fit a people in Southeast Asia (reasonable for a warm climate), while also being something the games' target audience will like.
I can't defend the degree of transparency in her pants, though. While there certainly were some semi-transparent fabrics there, would they really be THAT transparent? Seems doubtful... but I don't know for sure.
There was one character in an early '90s fighting game who was this Polynesian boy who actually did just wear a little grass skirt/loincloth thing just hung down in the front and didn't cover anything else... but it was a 2d game, so you couldn't exactly often see anything. It was interesting, though, that it was actually a character from a culture like that put in a culturally acturate costume... that is very rare.
Many other Soul Calibur characters come off much worse, though. It's not just the female characters. I mean, look at Rock. Without steroids (and modern fitness techniques), did people actually get that big? Not often, if ever! Then there's Taki, who has a fairly ridiculous bodysuit. And Cassandra and Sophitia worship the Olympian Gods, a good thousand years after the last people stopped believing in them. Plus, they wear some Ancient Greek style costumes, something that needless to say was also over a millenium out of date (and then Cassandra has that one with just a shirt, underwear or something, and thigh-high boots...). Sophitia also lost her chest armor in her first revision, something which I pointed out no warrior would ever do. While protective garments worn during combat varied from place to place (From 15th century full-plate armor to naked, partially blue painted Pictish warriors), in each game Sophitia's costume made less and less sense and protected her less and less. Why in the world would someone wear leg and arm armor but not chest armor? Well, we know the answer, fanservice, but there's certainly no logical one. Logially, a female warrior would most likely wear something a lot like the male warriors of her society wore, just adapted for a female body... but that'd cover up far too much skin to satisfy the fanbase, so that's out from the beginning.
Oh yeah, Xianghua... her "chinese dress" costume, for instance? That style of clothing was introduced to most of China by the Manchu dynasty after they conquered China in the 1600s. Even then, they did not reach that form-fitting shape until the late 19th or early 20th centuries. There's absolutely no history behind a Chinese character in the 1500s wearing something inspired by that kind of clothes. I don't know if any of her costumes have much of any historical believability, really... cool designs, but not believable. Oh well.
Or consider the two new anime-artist-designed characters, who fight in high heels (both pretty much impossible and not worn in those parts of the world at the time).
Compared to that stuff Talim's costume seems sensible, really, though the fact that the transparency was obviously done purely for fanservice reasons and not for any kind of accuracy does negate that to a large degree.
Really, why can't there be games with the kind of incredible, believable design of fantasy book serieses like The Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Sword of Truth, or The Wheel of Time? With very few exceptions, games on that level just do not exist, and it's too bad.
Are you trying out for a custom title? Great wall of text by the way, though it could be structured a bit better. Bolding also helps. Aside from that... word.
A Black Falcon
Member
VeritasVierge said:
My point just was that given that fabrics with at least some degree of transparency did exist in Southeast Asia at the time and were used in clothesmaking, it's not impossible.
I certainly agree, as I've said twice before, that the reason they're doing it here is fanservice, not accuracy to anything, but something like that IS probably possible. If the game (and series) actually was basing its character designs on attempts at true historical accuracy and not made-up mixtures of random influences and fanservice, it would probably be a more defensible character design decision than it is... as it is though, of course, yes, it is just stupid fanservice. Her pants should have stayed the way they were.
SiegfriedFM said:
Wait, you mean that you think Soul Calibur has historically accurate character designs? Really?
As I said, I'd say that the series is mixed on this. While it certainly does supposedly put itself in a historical context, and the characters do have in-depth backgrounds (some more plausible than others), other things just don't make any sense at all... it's definitely a mix. In story it's more believable than many fighting games, but in character design, it's sort of one of the worst and least believable of the lot... "Why bother putting so much effort into the historical setting if you have no intentions of following that up completely" is a very good question, and it is one I'd say the Soul series team has never answered.
Every game doesn't need to be completely accurate within the world created for the game, but yes, I definitely would like to see more games do it. There are far too few that even attempt to try to truly create believable, realistic worlds. A great fantasy world is one that adds things that the real world does not have -- monsters, magic, etc -- but that also creates a world with rules that make sense, so that you can't simply say "all of the seeming inaccuracies and problems with the design of everything? They're all magic!" and expect to get away with it.
Is the world consistent? Does it follow clear rules (for the magic system and how powerful magic is, other races, differences from real history, etc)? Is there a way to explain why the characters dress as they do or act as they do? For the Soul series, I'd say the answers to those questions are mostly "No" or "not enough". The series has a partial historical background, but they don't put effort into figuring out exactly what kind of world they have created. Character stories include things as absurd as Greeks believing in gods their people stopped believing in over 1000 years previously, character designs are crazy pretty much across the board, they randomly include a few elven guest characters without explanation, the characters constantly travel all around the world with minimal effort or time expenditure, etc...
The historical backdrop that is there -- with the story segments in the story modes, character backstories, etc -- is generally well done and interesting, though. And that's why it's mixed overall, and why it's frustrating -- because I know that, if they wanted to, they could do better. They clearly have the talent and enough knowledge to try. They would just rather satisfy market desires (and fanboy hopes).
As I said I think that Japanese games with Western fantasy settings are generally worse on these things than Western games with similar settings are, but they're all guilty of something. The Forgotten Realms (Baldur's Gate) has a 'treasure economy', modern-people-in-the-"past" stuff, etc, as I said.
There are plenty of legends of other creatures (and species) out there... if things like demons and such are okay, why not elves too?
On the other hand, neither elf character is a "real" character. Scheherazade is a special anime-designer character, and Link was a time-warp guest character... I don't think they really count in the series continuity (such as it is). I think that's the best way to explain it.
Real lightsabers would cut through those swords, and the people holding them, pretty much instantly.
That point alone pretty much completely invalidates anything there is to say about Yoda and Vader. They could fight the others... but they'd win in a second, max.
FoxSpirit said:Are you trying out for a custom title? Great wall of text by the way, though it could be structured a bit better. Bolding also helps. Aside from that... word.
No, bolding encourages people to only read the bolded parts and not the whole post. But anyway, there's nothing wrong with long posts.
SiegfriedFM said:
Yeah, the game is lacking in diversity in a few obvious ways, most clearly African and Middle Eastern characters. Zasalamel is the closest thing there is to having one of either, and considering all the European and East, South, and Southeast Asian characters, that's kind of odd. The 1500s were a pretty high point for Middle Eastern (Ottoman) civilization... and they have nobody? African civilizations were fading by that point, and European and Ottoman influence was growing, but even so, there should be someone.
Anyone ever play Mace: The Dark Age? It was one of Midway's best fighting games, I thought. Fantasy medieval setting, with weapons. The character designs vary from reasonable to silly (the dwarf riding a steam-powered mech is awesome...
).Star Power
Member
...
So, anyway.. someone on SRK claims that there's a location test going on today so we should finally see some in-game footage!
So, anyway.. someone on SRK claims that there's a location test going on today so we should finally see some in-game footage!
Master Thespian
Member
Can we get a mod to make the official SC thread a non-boob discussion zone? Some of us actually like to talk about-- ya'know-- GAMEPLAY. Which gets hard to stay on topic when you have a few guys willing to do that, but the rest are making the same corny jokes from last year (which are probably recycled from the DOA days). Ok, everyone in SC now has big tits. And wears less and less clothes every sequel. Even the men. Can we move on in the official topic and let all of these losers who are hung up over breast size bitch it out in another topic?
We're trying to get Ottomans, Middle Eastern and African warriors into the game while you guys bitch about tits.
We're trying to get Ottomans, Middle Eastern and African warriors into the game while you guys bitch about tits.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
Namco forfeited SC fans right to an official thread without boobless discussion when they designed their characters.Master Thespian said:
Master Thespian
Member
Rez>You said:
Uhm, no. Just make two threads. A boob discussion where you guys could talk about DOA and SC and any other boobs in videogames topic, and a real one without guys who have deep seeded breast issues.
By the way, Misturugi, Kilik, Yunsung and Rock have all gotten more muscular and more naked (well, Kilik put on a shirt this time) with each game. But you guys LIKE talking about breasts, even if it's under the guise of being "offended".
Night_Trekker
Member
The-Switcher said:
The ignorance in this post is astounding.
Master Thespian
Member
If there was one thing I really liked about SC2, it was the no clone policy with huge movelists (G-CANCELS FTMFW). Although they've brought some of the clone types back, I have faith that we'll get a Tekken 5 style differentiation between former clones. That said, Cassandra AND Sophitia and Hwang AND Yunsung aren't really needed, IMO. Too close in background, look, fighting style and weapons. Rock and Astaroth or Kilik and Seung Mina are okay because of the previously mentioned differences.
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
I fully support this motion.Master Thespian said:
radios shipping overview
Member
When was the last time SC was about the gameplay?Master Thespian said:
flipping_heck
Member
Master Thespian said:
I support this, i want to rape everyone with my Seung Mina.. my beautiful Seung Mina
This topic needs more Seung mina pics
Master Thespian
Member
jiji said:
Always? In the last game they added Just Frame Guard Impacts and Stun Combos. It doesn't do so well in Japanese arcades, so it's hard to keep updating it like VF can to cut down on the glitches. But with online patching, we're gonna see the best SC since part one. So because it doesn't play like your favorite fighter, there's no gameplay? Word? GTFOHWTBS.
flipping_heck said:I support this, i want to rape everyone with my Seung Mina.. my beautiful Seung Mina
This topic needs more Seung mina pics
Yep well they really didn't do to much to her so that is why he have skipped her a bit. Well there are always alternate costumes that will show her in a different light.
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/32927.html
New (to me) trailer. I'm not going to be bothered to look through page after page of endless breast discussion to check.
Shows a glimpse of a bunch of characters and more of yoda and vader than that :39 vid released a week or so ago. Looks like they fixed (changed) Taki's face a bit.
Hilda >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *
New (to me) trailer. I'm not going to be bothered to look through page after page of endless breast discussion to check.
Shows a glimpse of a bunch of characters and more of yoda and vader than that :39 vid released a week or so ago. Looks like they fixed (changed) Taki's face a bit.
Hilda >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *
Skilletor said:http://www.gametrailers.com/player/32927.html
New (to me) trailer. I'm not going to be bothered to look through page after page of endless breast discussion to check.
Shows a glimpse of a bunch of characters and more of yoda and vader than that :39 vid released a week or so ago. Looks like they fixed (changed) Taki's face a bit.
Hilda >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *
It's a week old, there was a thread on it on gaf. Still an awesome trailer
Star Power
Member
Yeah, Hilde looks amazing. I'm gonna pick her up as one of my mains.
Jamesfrom818
Banned
There could be some credence to A Black Falcon's argument that Talim's outfit is culturally influenced. Ever head of a barong? Its a translucent dress shirt. Talim's pants are probably barong inspired.
Spirit Icana
Member
Haha!
People complaining of the breast talk. How much breast hate is going on in this thread? NONE!
Talim has now joined the fanservice crowd and some of us liked her better the way she was before. This thread is about character unvielings through some screen shots. Obviously people will be discussing the biggest change they will see when they enter the topic: the visuals.
Edit: James, Black Falcons post justifies attire of such worn by some folks that reside in the east, but he strongly agrees that Talim's inconsistency is fan bait.
People complaining of the breast talk. How much breast hate is going on in this thread? NONE!
Talim has now joined the fanservice crowd and some of us liked her better the way she was before. This thread is about character unvielings through some screen shots. Obviously people will be discussing the biggest change they will see when they enter the topic: the visuals.
Edit: James, Black Falcons post justifies attire of such worn by some folks that reside in the east, but he strongly agrees that Talim's inconsistency is fan bait.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Well, to be fair, information on gameplay has been kind of scant. However, there is an abundance of information about the character art. The cups runneth over, so to speak.Master Thespian said:
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