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[sonicmj1]

The whole point of the game is survival, for fuck's sake. What the hell is supposed to happen falling, getting stabbed, and hurt? Just supposed to get off her feet, shake it off and keep on trucking?

The whole premise is you're on this island and vying for your damn life. Christ people.

The thing with this (and this interview is about as transparent about it as can be) is that any situation she can be in is one decided by the developer. With the things he's talking about in the interview (friends in danger, taken prisoner, attempted rape) as well as other situations we've seen so far (like that pipe through her abdomen early on, or her tumble from her parachute), they're all fixed aspects of the narrative, and they're intentionally contrived to produce a character arc that Crystal Dynamics had. Even when we learned the premise about Lara surviving on an island after a shipwreck, none of these things had to logically follow.

I don't think there's anything intrinsically bad about the narrative idea of a young Lara Croft put in a bad situation, struggling to get out alive, and becoming stronger as a result. But it's weird when the developers are talking about how "...just when she gets confident, we break her down again." We? He's talking like he's one of the thugs on the island. It makes it sound like the Hand of the Developer is the reason for Lara's suffering, not a logical extension of the premise. That sort of thing comes across as very exploitative, and it's going to make me much more critical of events that I might otherwise accept.

Simultaneously, there's a weird gameplay-narrative disconnect in things like the cliffside traversal demo they showed at E3, where Lara's clutching that stab wound from last E3 as she runs around, except when she ignores it so she can make death-defying jumps, climb a wrecked airplane, and fall on her face from 20 feet up. It was pretty goofy when something similar happened in Uncharted 2, and it's equally goofy here. It's like they're trying to win both ways by injuring her (it's realistic!) without actually injuring her, which undercuts an aspect of her being vulnerable.

If the injuries are triggered by narrative beats, they control both their frequency and intensity. CD controls every aspect of the game being the way it is, and it's weird to see their reasoning behind it.

 

[erpg]

That's not what I asked. If they did a new IP just like this, but a man, no one would say a damn thing. Hypocritical if you ask me. Might as well call all the females working on this game sexist too.

If it was a man we'd have Uncharted. Nathan Drake would comically joke about falling down a mountain instead of crying and screaming. He'd snap a guy's neck without whimpering in fear. He'd make some quips about someone's shaggy beard while firing off rounds instead of moaning.

Instead, we have an independent character turned into a babbling baby, and she's a woman, so you want to protect her and cheer her on as CD creates more circumstances for her morale to be shattered. But hey, they shrunk her breasts. Good trade.

 

[Ledsen]

That's not what I asked. If they did a new IP just like this, but a man, no one would say a damn thing. Hypocritical if you ask me. Might as well call all the females working on this game sexist too.

There's a similar situation that comes up quite often. "If that guy was white, and someone called him cracker, no one would say a damn thing". That's true, and the reason is that white people don't have a long history of being considered inferior beings and being oppressed by society. The same is true of women and men. History matters. Vulnerability and need for protection are stereotypical womanly traits. Throughout history they have consistently been applied to women, reinforcing a perception of the whole sex that persists to this day. What a game like this does is further strengthening that stereotype in peoples minds. And that's why people are disappointed.

 

[shinobi602]

The thing with this (and this interview is about as transparent about it as can be) is that any situation she can be in is one decided by the developer. With the things he's talking about in the interview (friends in danger, taken prisoner, attempted rape) as well as other situations we've seen so far (like that pipe through her abdomen early on, or her tumble from her parachute), they're all fixed aspects of the narrative, and they're intentionally contrived to produce a character arc that Crystal Dynamics had. Even when we learned the premise about Lara surviving on an island after a shipwreck, none of these things had to logically follow.

I don't think there's anything intrinsically bad about the narrative idea of a young Lara Croft put in a bad situation, struggling to get out alive, and becoming stronger as a result. But it's weird when the developers are talking about how "...just when she gets confident, we break her down again." We? He's talking like he's one of the thugs on the island. It makes it sound like the Hand of the Developer is the reason for Lara's suffering, not a logical extension of the premise. That sort of thing comes across as very exploitative, and it's going to make me much more critical of events that I might otherwise accept.

I think you're grossly misinterpreting what he means dude. When he says we, he means we as owners of the IP. I thought it was fairly obvious he means we "bring her down again" as in just when she gets confident and courageous, another situation is thrown at her to break her spirit again. This creates a character that learns. Learns from mistakes, from misteps, from overconfidence. This defines what Lara becomes in the future. I think you're seeing an issue where there isn't one man...

Simultaneously, there's a weird gameplay-narrative disconnect in things like the cliffside traversal demo they showed at E3, where Lara's clutching that stab wound from last E3 as she runs around, except when she ignores it so she can make death-defying jumps, climb a wrecked airplane, and fall on her face from 20 feet up. It was pretty goofy when something similar happened in Uncharted 2, and it's equally goofy here. It's like they're trying to win both ways by injuring her (it's realistic!) without actually injuring her, which undercuts an aspect of her being vulnerable.

If the injuries are triggered by narrative beats, they control both their frequency and intensity. CD controls every aspect of the game being the way it is, and it's weird to see their reasoning behind it.

Well come on...of course they can't just keep her realistically clutching her wound for days on end and eventually needing a hospital bed. This is still a game after all, and that's a point where we have to suspend our disbelief for a little bit.

 

[Finaika]

I have a theory on this:

Now that they are under Square Enix, maybe they made this new Lara (younger, helpless, you want to protect, rape fantasy, moé) to appeal more to its Japanese audience?

 

[.GqueB.]

This game is starting to sound creepy as shit.

 

[Carcetti]

I'm not a fan of the series, but after I relayed this bit of news in the OP to the biggest Tomb Raider fan I know, she said (quoting loosely) 'That's absolutely bullshit, fuck them'.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

On top of that, from the videos I've seen, she seems pretty traumatized by the killing.

The one she committed in a cut-scene? Yes, she's traumatized.
The ones she committed during the gameplay shown on MS conference? Nope. She goes and without saying kills dozens of men in various brutal ways.

If she really was this "vulnerable Lara" that needs to be protected by the player, she wouldn't attack anyone on her own if this wasn't necessary, i.e. there wasn't any other way to go around the enemies. In that gameplay she was just moving forward mowing down enemies that stand in her way. And yes, running up to someone, taking out his knife and stabbing him in the neck with cold blood isn't something an ordinary college student would do. This wasn't a self defense situation, she was the one who attacked him.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Don't like the what he said, I don't have any issue projecting with a female protagonist.

I'll still buy it because there are just to few games out with female leads. Hopefully if more devs see this sell we'll get more. Then once there's a healthy amount we can start being choosy over their lead's portrayel.

 

[shinobi602]

If it was a man we'd have Uncharted. Nathan Drake would comically joke about falling down a mountain instead of crying and screaming. He'd snap a guy's neck without whimpering in fear. He'd make some quips about someone's shaggy beard while firing off rounds instead of moaning.

Instead, we have an independent character turned into a babbling baby, and she's a woman, so you want to protect her and cheer her on as CD creates more circumstances for her morale to be shattered. But hey, they shrunk her breasts. Good trade.

Different developer, not CD's fault.

 

[erpg]

Different developer, not CD's fault.

I was actually indirectly trying to make you wonder if a male lead would ever act that way (I don't think so). And why it's perfectly fine for Lara Croft, an established character, to be subjected to that kind of change.

 

[Glass Rebel]

There's all sorts of ways to create an origin story for Lara. But it seems to be that because she's female, she has to start out "weak" and "protectable." If you look at origin stories or reboots for other games with male protagonists, they never start out as weak and beaten down. Can you imagine developers trying to appeal to gamers by saying we'd want to "protect" Agent 47? Or Marcus Fenix? Or Cole McGrath or Nathan Drake or Ezio or any other countless protagonists?

I don't get this complaint. This isn't trying to be an unrealistic game like Uncharted. CD is trying to make Tomb Raider more realistic. I don't know about you but I'm a man and I don't think I'd have any less injuries when thrown in the same situation as Lara was in the trailers.

Why does it matter what the rest of the industry does when this is actually taking a different approach?

 

[sonicmj1]

The thing is (if we want to hunt for parallels) Uncharted 2 opens with a similar sort of vulnerable situation. Drake is hurt with a Magical Cutscene Bullet wound, stranded far from civilization, surrounded by people who want to kill him, dangling over a cliff in weather that does not suit a half-tucked shirt. He's not in a good place. It's a device to grab the audience's attention (how did this happen?), but also to elicit sympathy for the character. I thought it was pretty good.

It also wasn't the focus of the entire game. It was just a well-used narrative beat.

I understand that Drake's character is in a very different place than Lara is in this game, but I'm using this to emphasize that there are a lot of ways to make a character vulnerable. It can serve a legitimate purpose, but when it starts to come across like an end in itself, it's fair to ask why.

 

[shinobi602]

I was actually indirectly trying to make you wonder if a male lead would ever act that way (I don't think so). And why it's perfectly fine for Lara Croft, an established character, to be subjected to that kind of change.

Drake screams like a little boy all the time in his games when he's in danger. Likewise we see Chloe and Elena in that game as very strong characters.

I think if a dev was creating an origin story for an adventuring man instead of Lara, he would act that way. Hell I would if it were me in that situation.

 

[RustyNails]

The thing is (if we want to hunt for parallels) Uncharted 2 opens with a similar sort of vulnerable situation. Drake is hurt with a Magical Cutscene Bullet wound, stranded far from civilization, surrounded by people who want to kill him, dangling over a cliff in weather that does not suit a half-tucked shirt. He's not in a good place. It's a device to grab the audience's attention (how did this happen?), but also to elicit sympathy for the character. I thought it was pretty good.

Yeah but it didn't want me to protect Drake. It made me want to climb the fuck out of it. Developer's goal should be to make you the hero (and Naughty Dog nailed it here), not look at him/her as a benign overlord that wants to protect them.

 

[Emitan]

This wasn't creepy at all

frequency is really cute though

Spoiler

but I'm a lesbian

 

[sonicmj1]

I think you're grossly misinterpreting what he means dude. When he says we, he means we as owners of the IP. I thought it was fairly obvious he means we "bring her down again" as in just when she gets confident and courageous, another situation is thrown at her to break her spirit again. This creates a character that learns. Learns from mistakes, from misteps, from overconfidence. This defines what Lara becomes in the future. I think you're seeing an issue where there isn't one man...

I'm drawing a lot more from those words than is probably intended, but it's still a strange and possibly telling use of language. Partially because this is an origin story, the world and enemies seem presented as a device to develop Lara in a particular way, not as things that act in an internally coherent manner. I don't think there's anything wrong with the narrative arc they're presenting in a vacuum (as I said before), but as with anything, it's a matter of execution.

Well come on...of course they can't just keep her realistically clutching her wound for days on end and eventually needing a hospital bed. This is still a game after all, and that's a point where we have to suspend our disbelief for a little bit.

And if that branch isn't sticking out for her to fall on, this entire issue has been neatly sidestepped. Or she rests for a while out of necessity, and heals. Or it was really painful, but it turned out not to be as bad as she initially thought. Or any number of potential things. No matter what happens, she's still trapped on an island alone with no way out and a minimal amount of practical survival experience, so it's not like she's going to seem safe even if she's mostly healthy.

There's no individual aspect that's been presented that I'm deeply opposed to on its own, but the sum seems strangely insistent on emphasizing her weakness in a way that I haven't seen anywhere else. For me, they're going past sympathy into exploitation, and that's not really what I want.

 

[Incendiary]

I don't think there's anything intrinsically bad about the narrative idea of a young Lara Croft put in a bad situation, struggling to get out alive, and becoming stronger as a result. But it's weird when the developers are talking about how "...just when she gets confident, we break her down again." We? He's talking like he's one of the thugs on the island. It makes it sound like the Hand of the Developer is the reason for Lara's suffering, not a logical extension of the premise. That sort of thing comes across as very exploitative, and it's going to make me much more critical of events that I might otherwise accept.

Simultaneously, there's a weird gameplay-narrative disconnect in things like the cliffside traversal demo they showed at E3, where Lara's clutching that stab wound from last E3 as she runs around, except when she ignores it so she can make death-defying jumps, climb a wrecked airplane, and fall on her face from 20 feet up. It was pretty goofy when something similar happened in Uncharted 2, and it's equally goofy here. It's like they're trying to win both ways by injuring her (it's realistic!) without actually injuring her, which undercuts an aspect of her being vulnerable.

If the injuries are triggered by narrative beats, they control both their frequency and intensity. CD controls every aspect of the game being the way it is, and it's weird to see their reasoning behind it.

This is pretty much what I'm thinking. If the game is basically do awesome things when you play, watch Lara get beaten up during cut scenes, it's not going to be a cohesive narrative. Yes, that happens in video games all the time, but it doesn't make the other video games any better either.

The difference between other video games and this one is how the developers are portraying it. They're basically saying outright that their intention is to torture Lara so she goes from a normal college girl to the badass heroine we know. And that makes me feel icky and weird.

There's a similar situation that comes up quite often. "If that guy was white, and someone called him cracker, no one would say a damn thing". That's true, and the reason is that white people don't have a long history of being considered inferior beings and being oppressed by society. The same is true of women and men. History matters. Vulnerability and need for protection are stereotypical womanly traits. Throughout history they have consistently been applied to women, reinforcing a perception of the whole sex that persists to this day. What a game like this does is further strengthening that stereotype in peoples minds. And that's why people are disappointed.

Also this.

I don't get this complaint. This isn't trying to be an unrealistic game like Uncharted. CD is trying to make Tomb Raider more realistic. I don't know about you but I'm a man and I don't think I'd have any less injuries when thrown in the same situation as Lara was in the trailers.

The problem is they're only making it "more realistic" in the cut-scenes. Did you see the E3 footage? The part where Lara shoots an arrow through a lantern and sets enemies on fire, then climbs up into rafters and shoots arrows at guys firing machine guns at her? How is that "more realistic?"

If you're going to go for realism, you can't just apply it during automated sequences, then ignore it when the player is in control. It's not the fact that Lara gets injured or starts off helpless that bugs me. It's that she's a badass heroine during gameplay and is doing crazy shit like Drake and Ezio and acting like Lara, but during movie sequences when we can't control her (basically, when the developers want to interject pain and suffering to break Lara down) we're going to be force-fed "weak" Lara which is completely different from the heroine we're controlling.

 

[Dyno]

This cartoon illustrates what I worry the game will become. Please help Lara survive her third rape attempt of the evening. Won't you please?

I don't begrudge them selling 60 dollar tickets to Rape Island, I'm just not sure I want to go there. I'm sure Lara will be fine, right?

 

[Igo]

You misunderstand me. What I'm saying is that "but people like this exist in real life" is in no way a justification for anything. Imagine the most sexist video game you can think of. I'm not talking about Tomb Raider, just any game. Similar people and situations probably exist or have existed in real life. That doesn't make this hypothetical game any less sexist.

And i'm just saying that large breasts and a tanktop with short shorts aren't inherently sexist or over-sexualized. That actually happened to be the default rock climbing outfit for a lot of women.

Characterization and story are a completely different matter. Even then, I don't really think anything should be out of bounds in this medium. All it takes is some good writing and an open minded audience.

If it was a man we'd have Uncharted. Nathan Drake would comically joke about falling down a mountain instead of crying and screaming. He'd snap a guy's neck without whimpering in fear. He'd make some quips about someone's shaggy beard while firing off rounds instead of moaning.

He would, and then we'd have even more threads about hows he's a completely unrealistic psychopath.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

It's pretty obvious that they are spending a lot of time and effort building this game and the marketing around it for a specific demographic, and that's fine. I complained more than I should have about the pitiful writing in the other recent thread, but the bottom line is I'm not getting the TR vibe I enjoyed from the old games from this, I'm too old for the demographic they are trying to present this to, and the character models/animations are currently pretty terrible.

They can unintentionally make this as creepy as possible, they can misunderstand how most people actual interact/identify with the characters they are playing, they can try to sell this as or even design this as an interactive episode of Goosebumps for adults, but no matter what they try to market the game as, the actual product they are showing me currently is doing nothing for me as an old TR fan, and far worse, looks rough, old, and uninspired compared to similar current games.

 

[Coolwhip]

Did you guys know this game got 'Game of the show' from IGN? /facepalm

 

[sonicmj1]

Yeah but it didn't want me to protect Drake. It made me want to climb the fuck out of it. Developer's goal should be to make you the hero (and Naughty Dog nailed it here), not look at him/her as a benign overlord that wants to protect them.

The stuff he was saying about projection feels like the result of some focus group survey to me, and while it may or may not be generally valid, it's going to vary a ton on a person-to-person basis. I sometimes project myself onto Drake and I sometimes don't, but I think someone feeling "I have to protect Drake by getting him off of this train that's about to fall" is a totally valid response to that opening sequence.

I don't know if I've played any games where the creators assume that I'm not going to feel some kind of direct agency in relation to the player character, but designing in that direction seems like a dangerous choice to me.

 

[TomJoadsGhost]

Is this thing just a third person survival fest or has there been any indication of it having a core of traditional tomb raider style gameplay as well?

It seems weird the idea of passing on a tomb raider game (i even completed AOD) but if its just a teen in peril game with a familiar title/ charcter name then its *possibly* (i'll keep an open mind) not for me.

 

[tiff]

I'd say Samus is, this guy's isn't, but he was saying the game was "supposedly sexist" as if two wrongs would make a right.

For reference is something like this sexist:

Or is sexualizing and objectifying men different and not sexist?

The urge to protect the vulnerable is a natural one and so I am not surprised a game would try to use that. Judging from the success of the Twilight series among females, a lot of girls and woman seem to enjoy fantasies of being weak and needing the protection of cute vampires and werewolves.

It's worth noting that we're not talking about widespread condemnation here, the backlash is coming from groups of feminists on the internet who obviously don't represent the views of society or women in general.

 

[shinobi602]

This cartoon illustrates what I worry the game will become. Please help Lara survive her third rape attempt of the evening. Won't you please?

I don't begrudge them selling 60 dollar tickets to Rape Island, I'm just not sure I want to go there. I'm sure Lara will be fine, right?

One small snippet of a supposed sexual assault sequence, game becomes Rape Raider.

Brilliant there. Absolutely brilliant.

 

[Emitan]

That's not what I asked. If they did a new IP just like this, but a man, no one would say a damn thing. Hypocritical if you ask me. Might as well call all the females working on this game sexist too.

So you're saying men have a long history of being objectified into things to protect and not capable human beings? Do you even know what hypocritical means?

 

[elwes]

I was looking at this game in the same light like I looked at the movie The Descent. You take a somewhat fragile heroine who goes through some awful shit, but rises to the occasion and meets the demands of the situation.

But those quotes makes this sound sexist as hell. I'll still play it because I think the game looks gorgeous and I'm all for taking Tomb Raider in a new direction, but it's a little disappointing to know that this is what the creators think of this new Lara Croft.

 

[Kenshin001]

I have a theory on this:

Now that they are under Square Enix, maybe they made this new Lara (younger, helpless, you want to protect, rape fantasy, moé) to appeal more to its Japanese audience?

As opposed to the Lara with the gigantic breasts.

 

[Dyno]

One small snippet of a supposed sexual assault sequence, game becomes Rape Raider.

Brilliant there. Absolutely brilliant.

The trailer is one violation and denigration after the next. It looks like there is a level where you have to escape while still being tied up. She is pummelled and battered and speared six ways til Sunday and it's all uncomfortable. She shoots a rapist in the face point blank and there is a money shot where he bleeds all over her face.

You have fun with that.

 

[JessicaPadkin]

Isn't the people behind this game arguing the opposite? They see making her more vulnerable, less voluptuous, somewhat less battle hardened that is more like regular human being and female rather than the superhero people who often star in such stories (Indiana, previous Lara Croft) could humanize her and make people to empathize with her and even want to protect her.

That's not what the dev says in the quote, though. He draws on the old trope that men are incapable of putting themselves in a woman's shoes, so they've tried to externalise the player from the character whereas male characters are designed to appeal to the player's ego.

I understand trying to make a character more human, but the implication is that they've gone for this approach specifically because the player is male and the character is female, and the 'poor baby' angle is just a bit creepy. I really don't buy that male gamers would find Nathan Drake more enjoyable to play if he were depicted being emotionally and physically tortured, crying and whimpering, raped, his confidence crushed, or whatever, because it's not appealing to experience 'yourself' being shat on like that.

Out of interest, are there any female posters in this thread who are in favour of this portrayal? It appears to me as though all of the actual women here find it distasteful.

 

[sleepykyo]

I have a theory on this:

Now that they are under Square Enix, maybe they made this new Lara (younger, helpless, you want to protect, rape fantasy, moé) to appeal more to its Japanese audience?

Maybe, except Underworld underperformed in the US. Pretty sure the grit is made to appeal to us.

 

[shinobi602]

Did you guys know this game got 'Game of the show' from IGN? /facepalm

And?

The trailer is one violation and denigration after the next. It looks like there is a level where you have to escape while still being tied up. She is pummelled and battered and speared six ways til Sunday and it's all uncomfortable. She shoots a rapist in the face point blank and there is a money shot where he bleeds all over her face.

You have fun with that.

Thanks, I will, since it's a...game. I'll also enjoy the platforming, survival elements, stealth gameplay, RPG elements, etc.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Just throwing this out there, but once you realize that people who belong to a demographic can still be ignorant, under-informed, and/or complacent about themselves, it tends to make the world make a lot more sense and helps you avoid making assumptions about pretty much anyone.

 

[injurai]

Square has brought the ~uguu to Tomb Raider, we should have seen this coming.

 

[Aeana]

Out of interest, are there any female posters in this thread who are in favour of this portrayal? It appears to me as though all of the actual women here find it distasteful.

I've learned to never assume anything about large groups of people, so I'm sure there are female defenders out there somewhere, but yes, every female poster in this thread so far has been against it.

 

[Banana Kid]

I really want to be excited about this game, but they keep saying shit like this and it's really throwing me off.

 

[Reuenthal]

That's not what the dev says in the quote, though. He draws on the old trope that men are incapable of putting themselves in a woman's shoes, so they've tried to externalise the player from the character whereas male characters are designed to appeal to the player's ego.

I understand trying to make a character more human, but the implication is that they've gone for this approach specifically because the player is male and the character is female, and the 'poor baby' angle is just a bit creepy. I really don't buy that male gamers would find Nathan Drake more enjoyable to play if he were depicted being emotionally and physically tortured, crying and whimpering, raped, his confidence crushed, or whatever, because it's not appealing to experience 'yourself' being shat on like that.

Out of interest, are there any female posters in this thread who are in favour of this portrayal? It appears to me as though all of the actual women here find it distasteful.

I guess their motives might be problematic. In practice you can get people who might empathize with her and I am sure that some will also put themselves in a woman's shoes. Plus, not projecting yourself into a character does not mean you can not empathise with how they feel, but more as a third party. Still the quote that he does not see people projecting themselves into the character (especially if that is because she is a female) is presumptuous, people do that and they also often see protagonists as characters who they help and direct as the player. So yeah there is a problem with that part of what he said. So that is an issue with this.

I really don't buy that male gamers would find Nathan Drake more enjoyable to play if he were depicted being emotionally and physically tortured, crying and whimpering, raped, his confidence crushed, or whatever, because it's not appealing to experience 'yourself' being shat on like that.

I don't disagree with you finding this to some extend creepy, in fact in some of my own posts IIRC I used the same term. That being said I don't mind more stories with more vulnerable characters.

If Nathan Drake was like that, it would be an entirely different story. Personally I think that kind of stories of more vurnerable protagonists can have value and can be 'enjoyable' if executed correctly. I also don't think that the unrealistic badass hero is bad story or not fairly enjoyable too, and enjoyable in an escapist way instead of the kind of reaction that dramas give you (sorry english not my first language not sure what word to use if you find enjoyable unsuitable). So it does not need to be changed. From what I recall in the game Mafia 2 for example the protagonist in prison was endangered for attempted rape and beat those people. And me a male gamer did not find the storyline of that game to be bad. Would most male gamers find it enjoyable? I don't really care beyond caring for quality stories and also wanting great franchises to not constantly lose what was great about them, so I want some new IP trying entirely new stuff.

My biggest issue with this other than some skepticism over the execution (they might be going over the top with vulnerability and not giving the right characterization that this kind of story demands) and some skepticism over the motives is that I would have much preferred a new IP rather than Tomb Raider so on that, yeah I don't like this new direction. I don't think that Tomb Raider was broken and needed to be fixed and I am getting increasingly frustrated at franchises abandoning what made them special, the kind of gameplay and characters that was so good about them.

 

[Lime]

What's up with the sexist PR disasters Square-Enix Eidos have accomplished the last couple of weeks? First it's blatant sexist appeal to teenagers with the fetish latex nuns with guns, and now we have rape quicktime events along with main protagonists needing (male) protection by the player.

Is it the writer of Vanille from FF-XIII who have taken over SE-E's PR department or something?

 

[3phemeral]

I've learned to never assume anything about large groups of people, so I'm sure there are female defenders out there somewhere, but yes, every female poster in this thread so far has been against it.

Most assuredly, especially considering more extreme situations when you have people defending their pastor for beating their kid or molesting young children, it wouldn't be surprising that people exist like this in some other fashion.

It wouldn't be the first time someone fights against their own interests.

 

[Emitan]

Most assuredly, especially considering more extreme situations when you have people defending their pastor for beating their kid or molesting young children, it wouldn't be surprising that people exist like this in some other fashion.

It wouldn't be the first time someone fights against their own interests.

I've definitely seen a woman fighting against her own interests on GAF before. It's mind boggling.

 

[XOMTOR]

This is why people hate origin stories and prequels. Nobody wants to see the main character before they become badass, because it's boring.

I agree, I hate origin stories; it just smacks of lazy storytelling. I honestly don't care how Lara got to be strong, confident and not afraid to get shit done.

I don't play Tomb Raider games because I want to "protect" Lara. I play Tomb Raider games because Lara Croft is a great character, who's badass, and happens to be an attractive (albeit extremely polygonal back in the day) female.

Thank you, same here. I just want to play a Tomb Raider game, not some interactive drama/coming of age story. It'll be a beautiful day when devs finally stop trying to make cinematic set piece "experiences" and get back to making actual games. Anniversary was a great game for me since it focused so little on the story but had a ton of great gameplay and atmosphere.

Someone said it earlier in the thread, this new direction for Tomb Raider is a direct result of the lackluster sales of Underworld and the simultaneous rising success of the Uncharted franchise to which TR is constantly (but mistakenly) compared. Basically, CD wanted a piece of the Uncharted pie.

 

[JessicaPadkin]

I've learned to never assume anything about large groups of people, so I'm sure there are female defenders out there somewhere, but yes, every female poster in this thread so far has been against it.

Yeah, definitely. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that every woman would or should find this offensive, I'm just curious to hear from any females here who actually want to play as this character.

 

[POWERSPHERE]

So instead of an overly sexualized woman we have a timid helpless woman. Same diff.

 

[sleepykyo]

This is why people hate origin stories and prequels. Nobody wants to see the main character before they become badass, because it's boring.

Batman Begins and Casino Royale were fairly popular.

 

[Angry Fork]

MY PRECIOUS

 

[tiff]

I've learned to never assume anything about large groups of people, so I'm sure there are female defenders out there somewhere, but yes, every female poster in this thread so far has been against it.

you know every single female poster in this thread?

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

The trailer is one violation and denigration after the next. It looks like there is a level where you have to escape while still being tied up. She is pummelled and battered and speared six ways til Sunday and it's all uncomfortable. She shoots a rapist in the face point blank and there is a money shot where he bleeds all over her face.

You have fun with that.

Do you have a link where she shoots a rapist in the face? I only watched the e3 video and I didn't see it in that.

 

[djtiesto]

I dunno, Tomb Raider to me never really seemed like the kinda game I cared about story/character development in... just want a game where I climb around on ancient ruins, try not to get impaled by spikes, and maybe shoot a few dinosaurs. Or if not that, then a co-op puzzle/twinstick hybrid like the amazing Guardian of Light.

Sounds like the moe phenomenon is creeping into western games too.

And frankly, sexual harassment happens far more often than getting shipwrecked as far as bad situations go. I crunched the numbers on this.

Unless you live in a Ys game

 

[Ponn]

I think the producer used a poor choice of words but overall I think the backlash on this game is overblown. They are using an established character in Lara Croft but they are telling an origin story. Yes there is an excessive amount of grunting in the game but you could swap any 21 year old female or male into that position and pretty much all of them, regardless of sex would be batted around and brutalized. You're not meant to get enjoyment out of her journey, it is supposed to be unsettling and you should feel her trauma in these situations. I would say anyone getting enjoyment out of her brutalization already has problems and should be checked out. We are watching a "hero's journey" in this game and you should rejoice when she overcomes these trials and transforms into the hero you know. Regardless of female or male, Crystal Dynamics has Lara Croft so thats who they built the game around. If Naughty Dog decides to do the same for Nathan Drake go for it. It really shouldn't matter what gender you put in this role. Even for a video game these are all viable and brutal things that would happen to individuals in this situation. I would suspect well over half of GAF would be dead within 30 minutes in those conditions, male or female.