shinobi602
Member
Bingo. I highly, highly doubt CD created these situations so people can go "Ohh yea, yes, yessss!"
They want to bring out a feeling of unease in you. What you're watching is unnerving.
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You'll "want to protect" the new Lara Croft
- Thread starter XANDER CAGE
- Start date
Bingo. I highly, highly doubt CD created these situations so people can go "Ohh yea, yes, yessss!"
They want to bring out a feeling of unease in you. What you're watching is unnerving.
Acquiescence
Member
Not to mention that beginning segment with River Phoenix in The Last Crusade is one of the series' highlights.
Glass Rebel
Member
There's a balance to strike between consistence and fun gameplay though. A game with something like perma-injuries or a completely impaired character is simply not gonna cut it. Luckily there's still stuff like the survival aspects, hunting for food, being tied up and forced into stealthy situations... having Lara limping like an idiot doesn't sound like a good game to me. There's not much you can do to show that "realism" outside of cutscenes and QTEs.
I'm just going from the E3 demo here but there's still something very clumsy and inexperienced about her animations. Like the first encounter when she shoots down two enemies and gets noticed and pushes the third off the edge. I haven't seen much of melee combat but one animation from the E3 trailer looked particularily un-badass. There seem to be several ways to avoid direct encounters too, like the lantern or the barrels, going at it in a stealthy way etc. Everything that tells us that she wasn't always the badass as we know her. We have to keep in mind that this is footage from an E3 presentation. Of course they're gonna make Lara look like a badass. The game will probably (hopefully) be more stealthier and require you to use the environment rather than going out there bows blazing.
I mean, there are different degrees of realism but this somehow managed to strike the exact balance to cause such an outrage? I really don't get it. The devs comment seems even more blown up in my opinion. It's not like he said "Look, we made this for guys and we made her vulnerable so they care about her. If you're a girl you're shit out of luck". of course I'm gonna care more about her because she's a woman. I'm sorry if this makes me old fashioned but of course I find it highly unsettling when I see a woman gets hit by a fully grown male.
Telosfortelos
Advocate for the People
I've cringed at every video they've released. Lara as over-the-top-sexy-badass might be sexist male fantasy, but I'd much rather have that then this insulting garbage. The trailers and gameplay footage have shown Lara as panicky, terrified, and just generally emotional - the exception being the moment she pulls the trigger, when she turns into an elite special forces badass for a few frames.
This was my reaction to the e3 demo:
This was my reaction to the e3 demo:
telosfortelos said:
Lara is on her back with a black haired man on top of her, face to face. They are wrestling for a gun, which they show turning towards the man. The shot is fired and then you see Lara limping away with a face full of blood.
The Anti-Monitor
Banned
Some people keep thinking this game just exists in a vacuum. For the last time.
There's nothing wrong about taking this kind of approach with a female character. The point is to have enough variety of female characters roles and personalities throughout this medium, that are built entirely about the character being female. That is the problem.
Every other adventure game is focused on the character getting shit done on their own. And, at least all the famous ones, star a male character. Except Tomb Raider. And this piece of shit is the result of making it "realistic". Because realistic in girlyland means that she needs protection, and who can protect her? You, male gamer, of course!
If realistic female characters in videogames were the norm we wouldn't have a problem with this. But they're not. Female characters are still thought, first and foremost, as characters who NEED "female attributes", thus the weakness and sexualization. Lara Croft is the most famous female character in the industry, and while everyone else in the genre are independent and self-sufficient, Lara NEEDS protection.
Perhaps the marketing of this game is just really fucking bad. But when every single piece thing of this game sexualizes the violence against her, the developers keep making a point of how weak she is, and the only way for her to become a badass is an attempted rape, stop with the bullshit of this not being sexist as all fuck. This game's position in the industry and Lara Croft's status only makes it that much worse.
There's nothing wrong about taking this kind of approach with a female character. The point is to have enough variety of female characters roles and personalities throughout this medium, that are built entirely about the character being female. That is the problem.
Every other adventure game is focused on the character getting shit done on their own. And, at least all the famous ones, star a male character. Except Tomb Raider. And this piece of shit is the result of making it "realistic". Because realistic in girlyland means that she needs protection, and who can protect her? You, male gamer, of course!
If realistic female characters in videogames were the norm we wouldn't have a problem with this. But they're not. Female characters are still thought, first and foremost, as characters who NEED "female attributes", thus the weakness and sexualization. Lara Croft is the most famous female character in the industry, and while everyone else in the genre are independent and self-sufficient, Lara NEEDS protection.
Perhaps the marketing of this game is just really fucking bad. But when every single piece thing of this game sexualizes the violence against her, the developers keep making a point of how weak she is, and the only way for her to become a badass is an attempted rape, stop with the bullshit of this not being sexist as all fuck. This game's position in the industry and Lara Croft's status only makes it that much worse.
#1 defender
Member
I haven't been following the previews very closely, but is this really a substantial gameplay component? In the recent "Angry Joe" interview with a dev it sounded like the deer hunting part was only a story beat to teach you how to use bow and arrow. Do we know for sure that there's actual hunting for food in the game or is it just an assumption based on the deer footage?
shinobi602
Member
I think you guys are making the marketing for this game look sexual yourselves.
I've seen almost all the media on this and nothing ever came off as sexual except the attempted rape scenario. Nothing else until I started reading the way some people's minds work on here.
I've seen almost all the media on this and nothing ever came off as sexual except the attempted rape scenario. Nothing else until I started reading the way some people's minds work on here.
Glass Rebel
Member
This sounds like the silliest reason ever. You don't get to decide how they portray Lara Croft.
Really? I wouldn't know, I just saw the E3 presentation and some of the video footage posted on GAF.
echoshifting
Banned
I find this interview much more..telling...than anything I saw in that trailer. That was creepy too but ugh this is some unsettling shit. I doubt this game enters my home...I was looking forward to it going into E3, too.
XOMTOR
Member
That is possibly what they were going for but while watching the E3 videos, that's not the feeling I came away with. I spent more time eyerolling and cringing than anything else. The annoying voice, the clichéd situations, the overdone moaning, oh and of course: "You're a Croft Lara." Ugh..
Funny enough, I got that "uneasy" feeling (in a good way) watching the Last of Us. Ironically, TLoU is also from Naughty Dog, also has a survival/action theme and may possibly release around the same time as the new Tomb Raider. I wish Crystal all the best with this reboot as I love the Tomb Raider franchise and hope it can achieve greatness again.
How DARE she express her opinion on a rampant problem in this industry!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXj9muy2gM4
Wow, I guess rape should never even be mentioned in a video game, how dare they?! You know, just to make sure that no one gets the wrong ideas, they should just remove all the female characters out of videogames.
This cartoon illustrates what I worry the game will become. Please help Lara survive her third rape attempt of the evening. Won't you please?
I don't begrudge them selling 60 dollar tickets to Rape Island, I'm just not sure I want to go there. I'm sure Lara will be fine, right?
If they haven't ever said openly on GAF that they are female, then obviously not. But I've got a pretty good handle on those who have in the past, and I can read their posts in this thread to find out where they stand, so pretty much.
victreeb3l
Member
people arent saying its sexual (aside from the rape attempts). people saying its awful writing and total character assasination. its degrading and continues gender stereotypes.
one scene shes spends being abused and hurt for 10 minutes non stop, then she stabs dudes in the face and burns people alive right after. what? its like the developers then went "shit, shes too much of a badass. we need to make her SUFFER so people feel SORRY for her maaaann!!!!!" and bam, continues the cycle of abuse and her killing shit.
how can anyone say thats good writing or good character development? then theres the aforementioned rape scene used as a plot device. fucking really? for the one aspect the developer is mouthing off on, theyre handling it very poorly. im surprised they didnt have her getting eaten by wolves yet, where you take control of a wolf and mash X repeatedly to inflict more pain upon her
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everyone that keeps saying "i dont see what youre talking about", "stop making a big deal out of this", and any variation of that, read the thread as a ton of posters have explained it quite clearly the problem people are having with this game. if you dont want to make the effort of reading the first few pages, dont even bother asking since its been explained far too many times already.
Banana Kid
Member
Sure, sounds good to me.
Until the medium matures a whole lot more to the point where they can handle it, I'd be fine with an industry-wide moratorium on rape.
If you can't handle it with tact, don't put something so serious in your game. I'm not exactly begging developers to put transgendered characters in their games because I know there is only one developer on the planet capable of handling the issue well.
Using rape like this is just exploitive and awful.
This cartoon illustrates what I worry the game will become. Please help Lara survive her third rape attempt of the evening. Won't you please?
I don't begrudge them selling 60 dollar tickets to Rape Island, I'm just not sure I want to go there. I'm sure Lara will be fine, right?
Of course she will. Have Lara be a rape survivor would be far too much. Right now, it's just the damsel in distress comic book cover. She'll be fine, unless Alan Moore is doing the writing.
shinobi602
Member
Sure you may not have. They're not going to bring out that feeling in everyone. But many will feel that way surely.
It's hard to properly judge the pacing and narrative of the game from a bunch of disconnected gameplay footage and guided walkthroughs. I think it's premature to peg the game as "this" and "that" either way.
It's fine to be turned off by the developer's comments though, and we can make somewhat reasonable guesses as to the direction of the narrative, but I'm not so quick to jump down their throats and accuse them of enforcing gender stereotypes.
Also, it hurts the industry when you actively discourage them from approaching sensitive topics. In their minds, they probably DO think they're approaching the topic in a tasteful way, but it's up to us to determine that when we actually play the game.
I feel like not many people are giving the game a fair shake. I would judge on the merits of the game, and not on the merits of the developer's comments. That said, I'm excited about playing it when it finally comes out.
It's fine to be turned off by the developer's comments though, and we can make somewhat reasonable guesses as to the direction of the narrative, but I'm not so quick to jump down their throats and accuse them of enforcing gender stereotypes.
Also, it hurts the industry when you actively discourage them from approaching sensitive topics. In their minds, they probably DO think they're approaching the topic in a tasteful way, but it's up to us to determine that when we actually play the game.
I feel like not many people are giving the game a fair shake. I would judge on the merits of the game, and not on the merits of the developer's comments. That said, I'm excited about playing it when it finally comes out.
Glass Rebel
Member
Yeah, that's totally what I said. It's one thing to claim Lara Croft as the posterchild for strong females in gaming (as hilarious that is) but don't expect CD to make a male Nathan Drake just because women want them to.
And one day someone will just magically "get it". Funny how reality works!
How is Lara not an empowering figure for women or anyone in general as presented here? She starts off terrified and seemingly weak, and you play as her as she discovers what she is capable of when faced with survival. She is forced to dig down and find that inner strength that many of us do not know we have and eventually becomes the strong figure we typically know her as.
It's a rebirth and origin story and one of empowerment and overcoming. Don't see how this is offensive in any way. Certainly no different than something like a group of men who are tested and faced with survival in movies like The Edge or The Grey.
What, is it the attempted rape segment? If anything, that makes men look bad. He tries to advance like a sexual deviant dog, but Lara kicks his ass moves on. That is actually symbolic of women being much more than frail sex objects, like they are so often depicted as. Lara personifies that and I figured women would dig it. Hell, I am a guy and just like the idea of her becoming a survivor and getting to experience that sense of growth. It looks great.
It's a rebirth and origin story and one of empowerment and overcoming. Don't see how this is offensive in any way. Certainly no different than something like a group of men who are tested and faced with survival in movies like The Edge or The Grey.
What, is it the attempted rape segment? If anything, that makes men look bad. He tries to advance like a sexual deviant dog, but Lara kicks his ass moves on. That is actually symbolic of women being much more than frail sex objects, like they are so often depicted as. Lara personifies that and I figured women would dig it. Hell, I am a guy and just like the idea of her becoming a survivor and getting to experience that sense of growth. It looks great.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
So there is no rapist?
He tries, but she kills the thug and moves on. Actually making women out to be strong in the process. I thought women were tired of being depicted as weak, sex objects that can't defend themselves. This is a story of how a woman becomes strong and survives, showing she is so much more than that.
Then why would we want to protect her?
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Wait, do you have a link to the e3 trailer for this year by chance? I found one on youtube that said 2012 but I'm assuming it's last years? The one I saw is two guys are playing the game on stage and it starts with her dangling then falling on a spike and then actual gameplay with lighting stuff with her torch in the beginning of the game. I seem to have trouble finding the trailer or whatever if the one I described is not from this year.
Edit: Nvm, finally found the right trailer.
I'm not sure what this post means?
My waifu can shoot bullets out of her fingers so no.
The Anti-Monitor
Banned
Mind telling me a female character more famous than Lara Croft?
And why exactly do I need to shift my expectations regarding on the gender of the main character?
The problem is that they feel the need to include that at all. Other characters start out badass, Lara needs a sexual assault to become one. This has been explicitly mentioned as the developers as what starts her development. Why, why the hell does this need to be the case. Why all male characters have gender neutral origins but female characters need one that constantly reminds us she's a weak female.
And you see, even if all these problems were there, and what we saw was Lara beating it all, this wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. But so far every single interview makes it clear the point is to have her suffer, to show her as weakling, wounded, cornered, all promotional material is about just how much she can get hurt in a 3 minute demo. You can't make the game a soft torture porn, have her be ok at the end, then say "Wow, how empowering!" This is not a game about "Lara is in such a fucking shitty situation, but look! She can beat all of this!", it's about "Lara is in such a fucking shitty situation, let's see how she breaks her leg now. Now the arm. Now I dunno, fire on the face". Perhaps the game DOES end up being like that. But promotional material and the comments from the developers are not selling this image.
You can't seriously be arguing they want to empower Lara when this game is as targeted to the male crowd as pretty much every other big game, and when they are telling us is to protect her. She's not powerful. She needs the gamer's protection.
Because any decent person would root for a character in her situation?
#1 defender
Member
This is the interview i'm talking about:
Tomb Raider: Angry Joe Interview
Sounds more like an one off thing than a permanent gameplay element.
Because she starts off scared and weak, forced into a situation that she is not prepared for. Same could be said of anyone who was thrown into such an unfamiliar scenario where they were forced to survive or die. The whole point is human qualities, growth and how she became the globe trotting, tomb raiding, acrobatic badass we typically know her as. Besides that, who does not like some good old survival elements and a sense of danger in their games? I mean, come on.
Rooting for != wanting to protect
shinobi602
Member
If you successfully do the QTE.
Going by what the dev said, yes.
shinobi602
Member
It's a game where you play...as the character...
Takamura-San
Member
Because you're controlling the character.....
Please find quotes from other developers about how you need to protect their characters.
Oh wait you can't find any because their main characters aren't weak little female stereotypes
They sure failed to portray it in a tasteful manner (then again, is it even possible to portray a rape attempt in a tasteful manner?) but I don't see a reason to blow this subject out of proportion and to start say stuff like "Lara's adventures on rape island". In the end is the guy just attacking her, and she defends herself. And like mentioned often before, is the character defining moment not that she avoided to get raped, but that she killed someone.
I'm not sure what people want. Would they prefer if Lara suffers from post traumatic symptoms later on in the game, not able to forget those three seconds, or would they prefer that the developers watch at every line of dialogue, frame of animation etc. that not anything could somehow imply rape.
"A female friend of Lara gets captured by the bad guys? "Make it a male!
"Lara gets grabbed by someone?" "Make sure he only touches her hands!"
What I can understand is that people don't like that it turns her into a feminine hero, dealing with feminine problems, while male heroes never have to deal with any gender specific issues.
shinobi602
Member
Not sure why you're assuming the sexual assault attempt is all that occurs to make her strong, instead of her entire experience on the island collectively.
There is going to be more to her becoming strong and growing than the sexual assault scene, lol. God forbid they actually put an element of danger and harsh reality in the game in order to drive the point of overcoming and surviving home.
I want a sense of growth and danger in my games. I can''t wait to experience her journey and hardships as she is forced to find herself and become strong or else. There is nothing offensive at all in showing how she overcomes a harsh environment and becomes hard as nails as a result.
shinobi602
Member
You're taking the man's words way too literally. He means you'll get the urge to want to keep her safe, help ensure her survival. No shit, that's how I feel with almost every video game character lol. I care about Drake when I play as him. I want to defend him and ensure his survival. I think the female devs on the team must be sexist too. They should come on out!
Way to miss the bigger point of my post, but keep it coming.
Good thing she overcomes and shows that there is more to women than being frail sex objects. If anything, that scene makes men looks worse than women. Not all of us are sexual deviants that objectify women. You here that, guys? Let's protest!
Sickboy007
Member
They're really pushing the guro angle eh? At least they're upfront with it. I won't buy it regardless, especially if it's as scripted as it seems.
Either way the way they're marketing (and writing, apparently) this game really stinks, both from the story and the gameplay perspective. It's a shame because i really liked both her design and the survivor idea.
Either way the way they're marketing (and writing, apparently) this game really stinks, both from the story and the gameplay perspective. It's a shame because i really liked both her design and the survivor idea.
shinobi602
Member
And he's Russian too! All those Russians are the same.