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[Takamura-San]

This is really confusing, we have one side going:

"This game is misogynistic, because it portrays woman in a weak position"

How do we solve it:

"Showing women as always strong and badass, because I cannot handle the idea of a woman suffering", and maybe overcoming those difficulties.

From what i have seen the game doesn't seem to show glorification of the treatment of Lara, it just shows the interpretation of how a 21 year old woman would handle the situation and how she will overcome it. And I don't know about you guys but even I at 30 would find myself crying more than she is on that situation.

I don't know what people expect, but I didn't think that any female character came out of the womb killing fools and taking names.

 

[Finaika]

Please find quotes from other developers about how you need to protect their characters.

Oh wait you can't find any because their main characters aren't weak little female stereotypes

ICO - You want to protect Yorda

RE4 - You want to protect Ashley

 

[Sickboy007]

ICO - You want to protect Yorda

RE4 - You want to protect Ashley

lol

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

Not sure why you're assuming the sexual assault attempt is all that occurs to make her strong, instead of her entire experience on the island collectively.

Ron Rosenberg, the game’s producer, also stated that they planned the content they’ve shown very carefully, and there was an “intentionality” to the way her suffering is shown. “We did a lot of research into survival and people who survived extreme situations. One of the recurring themes was that people who survived had this mantra of just keep moving,” he explained. “You see that in the beginning of the game, where we begin to build her up and give her confidence to cross the ledge, cross the plane, she forages for food and she’s feeling really successful. Then towards the end we start to really hit her, and to break her down. Her best friend is kidnapped, she’s taken hostage, she’s almost raped, we put her in this position where we turned her into a cornered animal.”

The idea is to take a human character, this very vulnerable young girl, and put her through immense suffering in order for her to come out the other end of the experience as a hero. Rosenberg brings up Die Hard, another movie where we begin a relationship with a human, vulnerable character and through an intense experience he emerges as a hero. It was important to show her as an innocent, vulnerable character at the beginning of the game. “People really identify with that,” Rosenberg said.

Remember when John McClane was almost raped, and all the ads about Die Hard were his moaning as he gets the shit beaten out of him? Remember when none of this actually happened at all and the moment the thieves showed up he was already in badass cop mode? He gets the shit beaten out of him, he does get badly wounded, but at the end, those are small obstacles in the way. They're not the focus of the movie, what makes him evolve as a character, and you can sure as hell be sure nobody ever said "YOU'LL WANT TO PROTECT HIM!!"

Now think of this, in how every adventure game featuring a male is similar to this, and how different it's with Tomb Raider. If you don't see the problem then I really don't know what to say.

 

[Odrion]

(then again, is it even possible to portray a rape attempt in a tasteful manner?

Cinema has.

 

[CoLaN]

So, i'm a bit confused.

On one side, NeoGAF asks for more blood and dismemberment in their games, on the other side even a remote reference to rape or emotional situations in which a character gets involved causes hundreds of pages of discussion.

I'm sorry, but i think that before we will be able to honestly discuss something like that, gamers should make their mind up.

The prevalent thing in videogames has been murder, blood and war for several years.

In my opinion it doesn't make sense to act disgusted when you face a game like the new Tomb Raider, and then go back to cut heads off people (male or females) in your other videogames.

As for me, i really hate how most of the blockbusters right now consist in murdering thousands of people, but i still enjoy certain games. Years of this desensitized people about murder in games, so this is somewhat perfectly fine and normal.

Still, if you want your complaints to sound reasonable, you should at least keep a coherent line of thinking.

"Oh wow, this is disgusting, in the new Tomb Raider someone attempts to rape Lara. Now excuse me, but i'm going back to play Ninja Gaiden and to stab people in the back in some other game."

 

[Takamura-San]

Remember when John McClane was almost raped, and all the ads about Die Hard were his moaning as he gets the shit beaten out of him? Remember when none of this actually happened at all and the moment the thieves showed up he was already in badass cop mode? He gets the shit beaten out of him, he does get badly wounded, but at the end, those are small obstacles in the way. They're not the focus of the movie, what makes him evolve as a character, and you can sure as hell be sure nobody ever said "YOU'LL WANT TO PROTECT HIM!!"

Now think of this, in how every adventure game featuring a male is similar to this, and how different it's with Tomb Raider. If you don't see the problem then I really don't know what to say.

So Die Hard and Tomb Raider have to be equal 1:1 to make a reference Comparison?

 

[victreeb3l]

So, i'm a bit confused.

On one side, NeoGAF asks for more blood and dismemberment in their games, on the other side even a remote reference to rape or emotional situations in which a character gets involved causes hundreds of pages of discussion.

I'm sorry, but i think that before we will be able to honestly discuss something like that, gamers should make their mind up.

The prevalent thing in videogames has been murder, blood and war for several years.

In my opinion it doesn't make sense to act disgusted when you face a game like the new Tomb Raider, and then go back to cut heads off people (male or females) in your other videogames.

As for me, i really hate how most of the blockbusters right now consist in murdering thousands of people, but i still enjoy certain games. Years of this desensitized people about murder in games, so this is somewhat perfectly fine and normal.

Still, if you want your complaints to sound reasonable, you should at least keep a coherent line of thinking.

"Oh wow, this is disgusting, in the new Tomb Raider someone attempts to rape Lara. Now excuse me, but i'm going back to play Ninja Gaiden and to stab people in the back in some other game."

neogaf is one person?

From what i have seen the game doesn't seem to show glorification of the treatment of Lara, it just shows the interpretation of how a 21 year old woman would handle the situation and how she will overcome it. And I don't know about you guys but even I at 30 would find myself crying more than she is on that situation. .

did you miss that e3 playthrough where 90% of it was her screaming and moaning and tumbling through shit, breaking bones and smashing into trees left and right?

 

[Kinyou]

Cinema has.

Really? What movie? I thought in The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo it was basically a quite pointless scene. Hell, the whole story arc was basically pointless.

I guess Irreversible has the most disturbing one, but does disturbing equal tasteful?

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

So Die Hard and Tomb Raider have to be equal 1:1 to make a reference Comparison?

What exactly do they have in common? The approach is completely different towards everything.

John McClane starts as a badass. Lara Croft needs to get beaten to become one. What's the point of comparing how the two characters start if they start in such a completely different way?

 

[Emitan]

"Oh wow, this is disgusting, in the new Tomb Raider someone attempts to rape Lara. Now excuse me, but i'm going back to play Ninja Gaiden and to stab people in the back in some other game."

Because I totally love gratuitous violence, right? I PLAY VIDEO GAMES SO I MUST!

Oh wait I play Gears of War with blood turned off...

 

[ironcreed]

I thought people liked when a survival game made you feel human, and had an actual sense of danger. That is kind of what they are going for, but beings some thug makes an advance on Lara it crosses the line, lol? Come on, man. Do you not see worse in movies every day?

As ugly as it is, stuff like that happens in the real world and very likely would in such an environment. Stop being so damn politically correct and see the bigger scenario of survival and growth here. There is more to it than Lara overcoming some rapist goon in the middle of nowhere. It's about her being forced to overcome and find who she is in general. Nothing offensive at all about that and I am glad that they are not sugar coating it so nobody gets offended.

 

[CoLaN]

neogaf is one person?

No, it was a provocation, but the trend is mostly like this.

Because I totally love gratuitous violence, right? I PLAY VIDEO GAMES SO I MUST!

Oh wait I play Gears of War with blood turned off...

I didn't say that you do, i said that the majority of this media is about violence and people enjoying it.
So, i think that before we will have decent characters in mainstream games it will take a lot of times.

I'm the first that would love something different in his games.

 

[shinobi602]

did you miss that e3 playthrough where 90% of it was her screaming and moaning and tumbling through shit, breaking bones and smashing into trees left and right?

How is that glorification? How else would they portray the extreme dangers that she goes through?

*Game begins*

*Lara hangs upside down, gets free*

*About to fall on metal rod*

Text prompt: "Now just imagine what it'd look like!"

No shit they're going to show you. Otherwise I'd just be thinking "Meh, this island isn't even that dangerous after all".

Good thing I don't see it this way, my God I'd go through my whole life seeing problems in everything.

 

[eso76]

you guys are really the creepy ones
i really dont understand the issues you have with this game

 

[shinobi602]

What exactly do they have in common? The approach is completely different towards everything.

John McClane starts as a badass. Lara Croft needs to get beaten to become one. What's the point of comparing how the two characters start if they start in such a completely different way?

And Drake had to become an orphan and treated like shit in his youth to become who he is. You're seeing problems where there are none.

 

[Sickboy007]

What exactly do they have in common? The approach is completely different towards everything.

John McClane starts as a badass. Lara Croft needs to get beaten to become one. What's the point of comparing how the two characters start if they start in such a completely different way?

Honestly the way McClane gets beaten, bruised, cut, insulted etc is a major and defining part of his character. He's a very different beast from the standard 80s hero thanks to this (just like Riggs).

The real difference is this weird "otherness" that transpires while speaking of Lara.

When people play Lara, they don't really project themselves into the character.

When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character.

And this approach really shows from what they displayed in the game.

 

[El Sloth]

So moe.

I hate that this was my first thought.

the fuck have i become

 

[Glass Rebel]

Mind telling me a female character more famous than Lara Croft?

Peach. Not that it really matters.

And why exactly do I need to shift my expectations regarding on the gender of the main character?

I said no such thing. You're basing your expectations of female characters on male characters though. Instead of seeing that the new Lara is more realistic... You want her to be less realistic because other male characters are? Do you want CD to go around and level the playing field by making Snake, Fenix and co. weaker?

 

[RurouniZel]

Because I totally love gratuitous violence, right? I PLAY VIDEO GAMES SO I MUST!

Oh wait I play Gears of War with blood turned off...

I don't play Gears of War at all. Problem solved.

I don't like how violence is treated in games (sans random zombies) so I usually avoid it.

On topic, I would say that while the inconsistency between Lara cut-scene and Lara gameplay is kinda jarring, I'm hoping this PR sparking the debate is just the result of some poorly chosen words. I'd imagine if they had said "You'll want to help her grow stronger," for example, there might be a touch less controversy (though I imagine there'd still be some amount of "why does she need help to get strong?" going on.)

But from what I've seen of the footage I don't know if the developers have the tact/directorial finess necessary to tackle such a touchy subject. Then again I don't think the developers of all the modern day shooters have the tact/directorial finess to tackle that either, but they get made anyway. :-/

 

[QueenOfThorns]

Remember when John McClane was almost raped, and all the ads about Die Hard were his moaning as he gets the shit beaten out of him? Remember when none of this actually happened at all and the moment the thieves showed up he was already in badass cop mode? He gets the shit beaten out of him, he does get badly wounded, but at the end, those are small obstacles in the way. They're not the focus of the movie, what makes him evolve as a character, and you can sure as hell be sure nobody ever said "YOU'LL WANT TO PROTECT HIM!!"

Now think of this, in how every adventure game featuring a male is similar to this, and how different it's with Tomb Raider. If you don't see the problem then I really don't know what to say.

This. I am not opposed to more "emotional" stories in video games or having your characters be "vulnerable", (Sorry for the air-quotes but it's interesting to note how those talking points are used for female characters for the most part) I'm just sick of that being applied to female characters by default in tactless offensive ways. I mean, if we were playing any other action adventure origin story this wouldn't even be a subject because they wouldn't try this, but since it's a female character it's open season. Video games just aren't evolved or diverse enough to try to tackle the subject of rape that isn't done in an offensive and terrible cliche way. All of that combined with the "oh you won't relate to this character the way you will a male character you'll want to PROTECT HER" crap just makes me hate this game the more I read about it.

It's interesting to see how both this game and Other M handle an origin story for a female character. And by interesting I mean sad. Here's hoping Beyond Good and Evil 2 won't fall for this shit.

 

[victreeb3l]

How is that glorification? How else would they portray the extreme dangers that she goes through?

*Game begins*

*Lara hangs upside down, gets free*

*About to fall on metal rod*

Text prompt: "Now just imagine what it'd look like!"

No shit they're going to show you. Otherwise I'd just be thinking "Meh, this island isn't even that dangerous after all".

Good thing I don't see it this way, my God I'd go through my whole life seeing problems in everything.

because its utterly pointless? what does 10 minutes of her falling down a waterfall then through a plane just to be smacked around by trees accomplish from a gameplay or narrative perspective? how am i supposed to feel shes grown as a character when shes killing guys, then takes abuse from the developers, rinse and repeat?

the developer said that when things get going for her, shit hits the fan, and it keeps happening. lol. so what the fuck am i playing for? wheres the progression?

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

And Drake had to become an orphan and treated like shit in his youth to become who he is. You're seeing problems where there are none.

EXACTLY! THAT'S THE FUCKING PROBLEM!
The shit that happens to Drake is gender neutral. Lara on the other hand is sexually assaulted. And how much does anyone focus on that? You've seen any developer of Uncharted go "Yeah we really needed to kill his parents. Ruin him. Make him feel like a little bitch. That way he can become a hero"? Or how you need to protect him?

This is exactly why this is a problem.

Honestly the way McClane gets beaten, bruised, cut, insulted etc is a major and defining part of his character. He's a very different beast from the standard 80s hero thanks to this (just like Riggs).

Exactly. But with McClane you aren't told he's helpless. His wounds are just what makes his movie interesting. It's not the point of the movie. When a Die Hard movie gets released you see how they talk about how much shit is happening to him, but that's completely consequential on his road to be badass. On Tomb Raider, this is the only thing they focus on. How she suffers, how she gets beaten up, how much everything is ruining her.

EDIT: And AGAIN, this wouldn't be a problem if this were literally the only big adventure game starring a female or if this happened to male characters as well. It's a problem because all male characters get to be badass and overcome this shit no matter what happens to them, but with Lara we don't focus on anything she does, we focus on how much she gets beaten up

 

[Vagabundo]

I've always thought that Lara was a little too much. I mean I've admired her bum like most straight males, but the presentation has always made me a little uncomfortable. I know why they have that gorgeous bum there and I think it does no one any favours, but I didn't get the creepy vibe like I do from this footage. It always just seemed like "Sex Sells"; pure business. It helped that they sometimes had a decent game under that sexy bum. I'm currently playing through Guardian of Light with my brother. Amazing.

Anyway, what really puzzles me is that: are female developers so rare that they can't have a few on the dev team for the no.1 female character in games? Maybe there are some that we don't see or hear from? But surely they could even throw in a few extra, because you know maybe they could create a game with an awesome female character made my women that might not pander to men. Maybe they could get more women and girls playing video games.

My little girl is nearly two. She is already mad into gadget and games, and I really hope there are some cool non-creepy games for her to play, while she grows up, with a lead character she can identify with as a girl. ..

 

[EternalGamer]

I actually really like the idea of vunerabe protagonist rather than generic bad ass dude bros all the time.

BUT there is a big difference between inhabiting a character and acting as a voyeur. This guy seems like he wants me to view Laura as the latter and that is a huge problem, especially given the stereotypes of women in gaming and it's primary audience.

 

[Sickboy007]

Exactly. But with McClane you aren't told he's helpless. His wounds are just what makes his movie interesting. It's not the point of the movie. When a Die Hard movie gets released you see how they talk about how much shit is happening to him, but that's completely consequential on his road to be badass. On Tomb Raider, this is the only thing they focus on. How she suffers, how she gets beaten up, how much everything is ruining her.

I'm sure in the finished game they'll have a half-assed "road to badassness" arc for her, they can't release straight up torture porn. But you're right, the focus is not on this, and the terrible marketing is really bringing the point home. And this stems from this weird othering perspective, straight out the mouth of the exec producer.

 

[shinobi602]

EXACTLY! THAT'S THE FUCKING PROBLEM!
The shit that happens to Drake is gender neutral. Lara on the other hand is sexually assaulted. And how much does anyone focus on that? You've seen any developer of Uncharted go "Yeah we really needed to kill his parents. Ruin him. Make him feel like a little bitch. That way he can become a hero"? Or how you need to protect him?

This is exactly why this is a problem.

Is that really ALL that makes her the strong woman she becomes? REALLY? I think you're focusing on it too much. What about all the other shit that happens in the game? The other 98% of it? The desperate search for shelter, evading psychotic human beings out to kill you, dealing with harsh weather, terrain, wildlife, basic striving to survive, etc etc. Instead you're focusing on the 1 minute sequence of attempted rape.

 

[Scrabble]

neogaf is one person?




did you miss that e3 playthrough where 90% of it was her screaming and moaning and tumbling through shit, breaking bones and smashing into trees left and right?

how's that any different than Nathan Drake, because she's a woman?

 

[Emitan]

Is that really ALL that makes her the strong woman she becomes? REALLY? I think you're focusing on it too much. What about all the other shit that happens in the game? The other 98% of it? The desperate search for shelter, evading psychotic human beings out to kill you, dealing with harsh weather, terrain, wildlife, basic striving to survive, etc etc. Instead you're focusing on the 1 minute sequence of attempted rape.

Maybe the producer should focus on those things instead of the sexist bullshit he says every time he opens his mouth.

 

[Odrion]

The other 98% of it?

You mean the shit you don't know about?

 

[victreeb3l]

how's that any different than Nathan Drake, because she's a woman?

first, nothing close to this has happened to nathan. if the uncharted games were about nathan getting shit on left and right to "toughen up", id probably skip the games. drake climbs shit and commits mass murder, thats his schtick. and any time hes beat up, it isnt over done or gratuitous like it is in tomb raider: other m

second, anti monitor put it nicely

EXACTLY! THAT'S THE FUCKING PROBLEM!
The shit that happens to Drake is gender neutral. Lara on the other hand is sexually assaulted. And how much does anyone focus on that? You've seen any developer of Uncharted go "Yeah we really needed to kill his parents. Ruin him. Make him feel like a little bitch. That way he can become a hero"? Or how you need to protect him?

This is exactly why this is a problem.

 

[shinobi602]

Maybe the producer should focus on those things instead of the sexist bullshit he says every time he opens his mouth.

Perhaps we should stop focusing on that and blowing it out of proportion.

You mean the shit you don't know about?

Yea I'm sure we'll have dozens of rape scenes in the game.

 

[truly101]

I wonder if we can break down the two camps and their points of contention with either the game, or the criticism.

Pro new Tomb Raider

*Saw old Lara as 1 dimensional and uninteresting, a video game barbie. Sees this game as an attempt to make her more grounded.

*Sees the situations Lara is thrust in as reasonable in context in the events of the game.

*Doesn't think a male character would dramatically alter the content (other than the unwanted touching, this will have to be conceded)

*Isn't as bothered by the notion of the player as a protector of Lara, this is defining the character player relationship (and honestly probably existed in the earlier games as well)

* Thinks the attempted rape, or sexual assault scene (that we've been shown, it could be worse) is much ado about not much.

Anti new Tomb Raider

*Sees Lara Croft as an iconic gaming character that frankly shouldn't have to go through all this origin story bullshit that not many other characters have, if at all.

*Sees the situations being embellished to take advantage of Lara being a girl, to illicit feelings of attachment from the player, and a hackneyed attempt at character growth. Exploitation.

* Concedes that while a male character may be put through similar physical hardships, he's never suffering the mental and emotional anguish that would break someone. If anything it strengthens his pre-established character.

*Finds the notion that a male player has to protect a female gaming icon flat out insulting.

*Thinks the attempted rape scene is the cherry on top of a larger sexually charged and misogynistic metaphor that is this game. Lara's suffering brings arousal, reassuring female suffering = male sexual pleasure and reaffirms male sexual supremecy. (I don't really get this one but some do, hence all the rape and torture porn name dropping)

I leave anything out?

 

[Emitan]

Perhaps we should stop focusing on that and blowing it out of proportion.

it's the gane's creative vision. We have nothing else to go on.

 

[Eusis]

I thought the original portrayal was boring, but this is just going to the opposite extreme. Not unless the worst of this is in, like, the first hour or two then after that it's more sensible.

 

[Scrabble]

first, nothing close to this has happened to nathan. if the uncharted games were about nathan getting shit on left and right to "toughen up", id probably skip the games. drake climbs shit and commits genocide, thats his schtick. and any time hes beat up, it isnt over done or gratuitous like it is in tomb raider: other m

second, anti monitor put it nicely

Haha not gratutious, have you played an uncharted game? Every other time your climbing something it will fall or break or come apart in some way just because it heightens the tension and 9/10 times results in Drake falling on his face, but when it's done in a realistic fashion that doesn't involve a character making a joke every time something bad happens than it's labeled as sexist?

 

[3phemeral]

Maybe the producer should focus on those things instead of the sexist bullshit he says every time he opens his mouth.

It's like talking to walls.

I mean, Lara suffering attempted rape with glorified-wound scenarios as a main feature of the game is the same type of character-developing method as Nathan Drake...having been an orphan that's obviously not a function of the gameplay?

Like was said earlier, being an orphan is not male gender-centric. Something more ridiculous would be something like, Nathan having the world's tiniest penis and becoming a badass to overcompensate for his shortcomings. Only you have to be forced through a series of awkward dates where you're afraid to show the goods, then suffer the consequences of your reputation because rumor has it your wang is tiny.

 

[thetrin]

Do developers just not like to make powerful independent female characters? I read this interview last night, and it immediately put a bad taste in my mouth.

Not everything has to be a male power fantasy. I don't need to save a damsel to feel like a man. Powerful, independent, competent female characters are way sexier anyway.

 

[victreeb3l]

Haha not gratutious, have you played an uncharted game? Every other time your climbing something it will fall or break or come apart in some way just because it heightens the tension and 9/10 times results in Drake falling on his face, but when it's done in a realistic fashion that doesn't involve a character making a joke every time something bad happens than it's labeled as sexist?

read anti monitors quote. if you cant see why drake and lara cant be compared then i dunno what to tell you

tomb raider is realistic now? LOL

 

[grimshawish]

Fuck sakes. I saw this happening - a lot of people were excited at first - but more and more this seems to be the entire other end of sexism.

Sexist bullshit. We saw this at E3; all this bollocks about a realistic character just means their sexist view of 'realistic female character'.

UGH!

This isn't Daniel Craigs Bond (something I thought they were basing the idea off of) this is just a bunch of men saying Lara is an unrealistic portrayal of a woman and forgetting the problem people had with her - she'd become a female character for men as oppose to just being a character who happens to be a woman.

This is complete bullshit. Is this what will happen in the sequels? Every fucking time we play as Lara shes in threat of being raped or killed - and the reason for this? Shes alone. A.K.FUCKING.A she isn't with a man to protect her.


Fuck off this game. There is a seriously big fucking difference between adding realism to a game and having what in the end just sexist writing.

I expected Lara to have a hard time, to be in danger a lot and to be building up her inventory and just basically surviving/learning.

Women and Men play games. Big. Fucking. Shock. Story. I have no trouble playing as a woman or projecting myself into the character - gender doesn't control how you'd feel about getting attacked (morons) or trying to survive.


With all the stuff of Lara looking like she needs help/emotional. We now know from this interview these arn't part of some 'epic' coming of the Woman story. My guess is its just going to be Lara wanting to get help/get away into the safe arms of some men/society (which has men) so shes less 'unsafe'.

And 'woman in captivity' = rape is complete bullshit writing.
All they've fucking done here is turn a character who (originally, this gen games are just bullshit) is sexually confident in herself at least, into someone whose weak and you fucking sexualise them anyway - with rape. CAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A MAN TO PROTECT HER.


Sweet fucking jesus.

 

[shinobi602]

^Holy shit lol.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Perhaps it's because I just finished playing Dead Space where I had to listen to Isaac cry out in agony from being dismembered and/or impaled or suffucating as he runs out of oxygen that I'm not bothered that a woman can undergo similar physical trauma. In fact why can't she?
If in the course of the game Lara overcomes her problems without a man coming to save her (regardless of the player being male or female) then thats great. The comment from the guy is sexist, no doubt, but until I see the game for myself, it doesn't mean much.

I hope we get to see more tough women in entertainment who producers aren't afraid of getting banged up. Haywire for example, Gina Carano gets beat pretty damn hard through out the film, but damn can she give it back and then some.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Out of all the criticism directed at this game there's one thing I find really baffling. I mean, I absolutely get the rape complaints. If you find it in bad taste, fine, nothing anybody can do about it. I just found it unsettling which was most likely the devs intention. We can also argue all we want about this being "torture porn" but honestly, if I hadn't read any comments on GAF the thought wouldn't even have crossed my mind.

But the one thing that I just can't comprehend is the belief that you can't show a vulnerable Lara Croft. Not just because she's an iconic, strong female character but because other male characters aren't portrayed in the same way. I mean let that one sink in. Because every other game starring a male character is dumb, this has to be dumb too?
Instead of seeing that Crystal Dynamics actually tries to make a believable and human female character you want them to return to EE-bosom non-character shootbang Lara? Do you even know what an origin story is? Have you seen Batman Begins?

I sincerely hope they go back to old Lara now so you can pat yourselves on the back and declare that sexism is over.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I sincerely hope they go back to old Lara now so you can pat yourselves on the back and declare that sexism is over.

Oh puh-leeeeeeez.

But the one thing that I just can't comprehend is the belief that you can't show a vulnerable Lara Croft. Not just because she's an iconic, strong female character but because other male characters aren't portrayed in the same way. I mean let that one sink in. Because every other game starring a male character is dumb, this has to be dumb too?
Instead of seeing that Crystal Dynamics actually tries to make a believable and human female character you want them to return to EE-bosom non-character shootbang Lara? Do you even know what an origin story is? Have you seen Batman Begins?

I don't think anyone is asking for poorly written characters. You can absolutely write a strong female character who is weak, vunerable, evil, whatever you want. "Strong" as in interesting, not as in buff.

This issue that I see (and many other people here) is that this game is using cliche, boring, and outdated tropes to get us to care about the female lead. Rape has pretty much never been handled as anything other than a melodramatic wedge in most video game character writing. You could absolutely write an interesting character whose origin story included sexual assault, but simply including a gropey QTE that ends with Lara kneeing the assailant in the nuts is laughable. The producer's comments also frame the whole thing in a really weird, white-knighty light. It personally makes me uncomfortable, and not in an entertaining way.

If the game was pulled off right, it'd make the audience feel uncomfortable in the same way that, I dunno, The Last Of Us's grim violence does. From what I've seen, Tomb Raider doesn't really seem as well crafted.

 

[cameron]

But the one thing that I just can't comprehend is the belief that you can't show a vulnerable Lara Croft. Not just because she's an iconic, strong female character but because other male characters aren't portrayed in the same way. I mean let that one sink in. Because every other game starring a male character is dumb, this has to be dumb too?

Pick one post in this ~700 reply thread that holds this belief. I'd like to read it.

 

[Kinyou]

Fuck sakes. I saw this happening - a lot of people were excited at first - but more and more this seems to be the entire other end of sexism.

Sexist bullshit. We saw this at E3; all this bollocks about a realistic character just means their sexist view of 'realistic female character'.

UGH!

This isn't Daniel Craigs Bond (something I thought they were basing the idea off of) this is just a bunch of men saying Lara is an unrealistic portrayal of a woman and forgetting the problem people had with her - she'd become a female character for men as oppose to just being a character who happens to be a woman.

This is complete bullshit. Is this what will happen in the sequels? Every fucking time we play as Lara shes in threat of being raped or killed - and the reason for this? Shes alone. A.K.FUCKING.A she isn't with a man to protect her.


Fuck off this game. There is a seriously big fucking difference between adding realism to a game and having what in the end just sexist writing.

I expected Lara to have a hard time, to be in danger a lot and to be building up her inventory and just basically surviving/learning.

Women and Men play games. Big. Fucking. Shock. Story. I have no trouble playing as a woman or projecting myself into the character - gender doesn't control how you'd feel about getting attacked (morons) or trying to survive.


With all the stuff of Lara looking like she needs help/emotional. We now know from this interview these arn't part of some 'epic' coming of the Woman story. My guess is its just going to be Lara wanting to get help/get away into the safe arms of some men/society (which has men) so shes less 'unsafe'.

And 'woman in captivity' = rape is complete bullshit writing.
All they've fucking done here is turn a character who (originally, this gen games are just bullshit) is sexually confident in herself at least, into someone whose weak and you fucking sexualise them anyway - with rape. CAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A MAN TO PROTECT HER.


Sweet fucking jesus.

but... she protects herself....

And it's a guy who makes the wrong decision of trusting those native guys...

 

[shinobi602]

but... she protects herself....

And it's a guy who makes the wrong decision of trusting those native guys...

Just give it a rest lol.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I don't think anyone is asking for poorly written characters. You can absolutely write a strong female character who is weak, vunerable, evil, whatever you want. "Strong" as in interesting, not as in buff.

This issue that I see (and many other people here) is that this game is using cliche, boring, and outdated tropes to get us to care about the female lead. Rape has pretty much never been handled as anything other than a melodramatic wedge in most video game character writing. You could absolutely write an interesting character whose origin story included sexual assault, but simply including a gropey QTE that ends with Lara kneeing the assailant in the nuts is laughable. The producer's comments also frame the whole thing in a really weird, white-knighty light.

It seems you've played the entire game, I mean why else would you think that it uses "cliche, boring and outdated tropes" or tell me that the rape scene is just a QTE? Jokes aside, we've seen 2 trailers and some gameplay footage. I'm all for judging what we've been shown but how sensible do you think it is to take everything out of context and judge it by itself? She's a 21yrs old attractive female on an island with criminals. It's not in the least out of place that someone might attempt to rape her because they are fucking criminals. I just think it's silly not to show something just because you can choose not to.

Somehow we are to take the comments of the dev in a complete vacuum without considering the standard male character in video games but Lara herself can't exist without said characters? Of course I'm gonna care more about Lara more than any other male character because she actually sounds like she's suffering. I don't give a shit whether Ezio misses a haystack or Fenix gets ripped in half but I give very much a shit about Lara having a nail driven through her pelvis. It's highly unsettling and exactly what CD wanted to achieve.

Also you gotta give me some examples of females being raped in games because I can't think of any.

Pick one post in this ~700 page thread that holds this belief. I'd like to read it.

Read Anit-Monitor's posts I guess? There are several.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

Read Anit-Monitor's posts I guess? There are several.

Meh. If all I say about not considering the games in a vacuum and how it's not a single thing that causes the problem but a whole lot of them when put together is going to be ignored like this I'm not bothering with this thread anymore.

 

[cameron]

Read Anit-Monitor's posts I guess? There are several.

You guess? If there are several, just link to one that comes close to the wild belief you posted earlier. It shouldn't be hard.