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[Glass Rebel]

Meh. If all I say about not considering the games in a vacuum and how it's not a single thing that causes the problem but a whole lot of them when put together is going to be ignored like this I'm not bothering with this thread anymore.

Well, it's not like you didn't ignore my reply

You guess? If there are several, just link to one that comes close to the wild belief you posted earlier. It shouldn't be hard.

Here it is, wouldn't have been that hard for you to find it either.

 

[jimi_dini]

All of that combined with the "oh you won't relate to this character the way you will a male character you'll want to PROTECT HER" crap just makes me hate this game the more I read about it.

Maybe it's a marketing ploy.

First show us all sorts of crap. And when we are really fed up, then they show us the actual Tomb Raider game, where Lara Croft raids tombs again. And there is no Laura anymore. And it's an actual survival game. And she is not almost-raped. And is not going on a murdering spree. And the "levels" don't consist of FF XIII corridors.

I haven't been following the previews very closely, but is this really a substantial gameplay component? In the recent "Angry Joe" interview with a dev it sounded like the deer hunting part was only a story beat to teach you how to use bow and arrow. Do we know for sure that there's actual hunting for food in the game or is it just an assumption based on the deer footage?

After listening to the AJ interview, I interpreted it as: that deer hunt is a one time event to teach you how to use bows to kill humans afterwards. That's IT.

Listening to it again:

AJ: Let's speak a little bit of the survival of Laura. Obviously she isn't that experienced - at this point she isn't that experienced, so she isn't the badass as in some of the other games. So the survival mechanic - will you be hunting for food, shooting deer, this kind of stuff? Is it more like that or is it more story driven?
Answer: It's more story driven. It's about the survival of a character in a very psychological and very determined way. There are survival elements, where in the beginning of the demo, that was shown behind closed doors, you have to kill A DEER, because you need to eat. BUT REALLY that's a mechanic to teach the player about the bow, how to aim, how to move around, how to build up XP. ... we are not about picking berries and drinking your own pee. It's not that type of survival game. This is more about how she is forced to do things, which are the unthinkable. You know, she is forced to kill somebody in an instance, in which it's kill or be killed.

 

[3phemeral]

but... she protects herself....

And it's a guy who makes the wrong decision of trusting those native guys...

You must have missed the part where he's shot dead, and her "protecting herself" is being captured, tied-up, chased, and suffered an attempted rape.

 

[Kinyou]

You must have missed the part where he's shot dead, and her "protecting herself" is being captured, tied-up, chased, and suffered an attempted rape.

You're right, Solid Snake never got captured and tortured, right? oh wait, I mean Nathan Drake never got capture- oh damn, this is hard.

 

[Emitan]

Just like Solid Snake never got captured and tortured, right? oh wait, I mean just like Nathan Drake never got capture- oh damn, this is hard.

Were they raped? Were they captured so that we could see how weak and needing of protection they are?

 

[Glass Rebel]

Were they raped? Were they captured so that we could see how weak and needing of protection they are?

Was there someone who wanted to rape them?

 

[3phemeral]

Just like Solid Snake never got captured and tortured, right? oh wait, I mean just like Nathan Drake never got capture- oh damn, this is hard.

You countered with "she was protecting herself and she wasn't alone." But she was alone when he was shot dead, and they attempted to rape her.

I'm sure Solid Snake and Drake sure handled those attempted rape situations really well. Made them tough dudes who could handle anything.

I don't think any of your are getting the argument at all. It's not about literal equivalency of situation, it's about gender-projected equivalencies. There'as a huge difference.

Was there someone who wanted to rape them?

I forgot these games are actually about reality, so any ability to adjust storytelling is out of the developer's hands. Hell, the AI is so advanced, these characters will rape whomever they choose. Drake and Solid Snake just got lucky, I guess.

 

[cameron]

Here it is, wouldn't have been that hard for you to find it either.

I couldn't find it because I see two different arguments.


So this:

Some people keep thinking this game just exists in a vacuum. For the last time.

There's nothing wrong about taking this kind of approach with a female character. The point is to have enough variety of female characters roles and personalities throughout this medium, that are built entirely about the character being female. That is the problem.

Every other adventure game is focused on the character getting shit done on their own. And, at least all the famous ones, star a male character. Except Tomb Raider. And this piece of shit is the result of making it "realistic". Because realistic in girlyland means that she needs protection, and who can protect her? You, male gamer, of course!

If realistic female characters in videogames were the norm we wouldn't have a problem with this. But they're not. Female characters are still thought, first and foremost, as characters who NEED "female attributes", thus the weakness and sexualization. Lara Croft is the most famous female character in the industry, and while everyone else in the genre are independent and self-sufficient, Lara NEEDS protection.

Perhaps the marketing of this game is just really fucking bad. But when every single piece thing of this game sexualizes the violence against her, the developers keep making a point of how weak she is, and the only way for her to become a badass is an attempted rape, stop with the bullshit of this not being sexist as all fuck. This game's position in the industry and Lara Croft's status only makes it that much worse.

is related to this:

But the one thing that I just can't comprehend is the belief that you can't show a vulnerable Lara Croft. Not just because she's an iconic, strong female character but because other male characters aren't portrayed in the same way. I mean let that one sink in. Because every other game starring a male character is dumb, this has to be dumb too?

?

lol, wut.

 

[Kinyou]

Were they raped? Were they captured so that we could see how weak and needing of protection they are?

But Lara kills the guy. Even bites his damn ear off. She doesn't need someone to protect her. She's probably the one who is going to rescue everyone else. I don't see anything weak in a character getting caught by the enemy. That just happens in games.

And sure, I can't think of a male videogame character who ever got sexually assaulted, but there's that scene in Casino Royale where James Bond gets his testicles smashed into pulp.

You countered with "she was protecting herself and she wasn't alone." But she was alone when he was shot dead, and they attempted to rape her.

My "she wasn't alone" comment was regarding to a scene that plays before the whole camp fight. It's a guy who's naive enough to trust those suspicious looking guys. Lara is the smart one who's cautious. How is that weak?

Also that she's alone during the attempted rape is my whole point. She defends herself alone. She doesn't need anyone to rescue her, she rescues herself, just like Nathan Drake or Solid Snake.

 

[RustyNails]

Was there someone who wanted to rape them?

 

[Dyno]

Maybe I was turned off because we didn't see her fight much in the trailer. She's just taking all kinds of abuse and running away.

Far Cry 3 looks to be a game with the same story and motivation. Get stranded on crazy island, try to survive. But FC3 is giving you guns and knives from the get-go and they've shown all kinds of empowering combat. Not so with Tomb Raider, she runs around the island with her hands behind her back.

This is the one game where the protagonist is victimized more-so than its peers and she just so happens to be a woman. The idea itself is novel but they're doing this to a woman and that sadly just seems typical.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I couldn't find it because I see two different arguments.


So this:


is related to this:


?

lol, wut.

If you're gonna lolwut me, at least read the post, these sentences in particular:

Every other adventure game is focused on the character getting shit done on their own. And, at least all the famous ones, star a male character. Except Tomb Raider.

Lara Croft is the most famous female character in the industry, and while everyone else in the genre are independent and self-sufficient, Lara NEEDS protection.

If you don't want to, why even bother replying?

I forgot these games are actually about reality, so any ability to adjust storytelling is out of the developer's hands, and the AI is so advanced, these characters will rape whomever they choose. Drake and Solid Snake just got lucky, I guess.

Well I guess we should just ignore rape then! Everything that is somewhat offensive to someone shouldn't be in any work of fiction. No rape, no racism... no murder! There, I made gaming better for all of us.

 

[Kinyou]

Maybe I was turned off because we didn't see her fight much in the trailer. She's just taking all kinds of abuse and running away.

Far Cry 3 looks to be a game with the same story and motivation. Get stranded on crazy island, try to survive. But FC3 is giving you guns and knives from the get-go and they've shown all kinds of empowering combat. Not so with Tomb Raider, she runs around the island with her hands behind her back.

This is the one game where the protagonist is victimized more-so than its peers and she just so happens to be a woman. The idea itself is novel but they're doing this to a woman and that sadly just seems typical.

Here you see her killing plenty of guys, actually so many that it contradicts the game's realistic approach.

 

[Byakuya769]

If you protect Croft well enough do you get the life-sized pillow?

 

[3phemeral]

Well I guess we should just ignore rape then! Everything that is somewhat offensive to someone shouldn't be in any work of fiction. No rape, no racism... no murder! There, I made gaming better for all of us.

Is this where lack of understanding meets slippery slope?

 

[Glass Rebel]

Is this where lack of understanding meets slippery slope?

No this is where we don't talk about r***.

 

[cameron]

If you're gonna lolwut me, at least read the post, these sentences in particular:





If you don't want to, why even bother replying?

Don't cherry pick the post. Read the entire thing in context. Even with those 2 sentences, it's still not the "can't show a vulnerable Lara Croft because other male characters aren't portrayed in the same way" nonsense you suggested. But that's my take on it. However, even the author disagrees with your assessment of his/her post.

 

[3phemeral]

No this is where we don't talk about r***.

What a sound argument.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Oh puh-leeeeeeez.



I don't think anyone is asking for poorly written characters. You can absolutely write a strong female character who is weak, vunerable, evil, whatever you want. "Strong" as in interesting, not as in buff.

This issue that I see (and many other people here) is that this game is using cliche, boring, and outdated tropes to get us to care about the female lead. Rape has pretty much never been handled as anything other than a melodramatic wedge in most video game character writing. You could absolutely write an interesting character whose origin story included sexual assault, but simply including a gropey QTE that ends with Lara kneeing the assailant in the nuts is laughable. The producer's comments also frame the whole thing in a really weird, white-knighty light. It personally makes me uncomfortable, and not in an entertaining way.

If the game was pulled off right, it'd make the audience feel uncomfortable in the same way that, I dunno, The Last Of Us's grim violence does. From what I've seen, Tomb Raider doesn't really seem as well crafted.

Can you give me numerous examples of well written characters regardless of gender? I keep hearing this but I can't really think of any characters that are really well written. Video game writing is usually pretty poor imo. I'm curious.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Don't cherry pick the post. Read the entire thing in context. Even with those 2 sentences, it's still not the "can't show a vulnerable Lara Croft because other male characters aren't portrayed in the same way" nonsense you suggested. But that's my take on it. However, even the author disagrees with your assessment of his/her post.

I'm not cherrypicking. She herself said that there's "nothing wrong with taking such an approach" but somehow it's Crystal Dynamic's responsibility to have a wide variety of female characters. Because there aren't that many strong female characters Lara Croft absolutely can't be touched or developed.

Well here you have your variety, Lara was a badass in the previous games and this time she isn't. Because she wasn't born a hero.

What a sound argument.

Well, I was trying to meet you halfway with your sarcastic remarks.

 

[3phemeral]

Well, I was trying to meet you halfway with your sarcastic remarks.

That's because your reply suffered from "gender equality = situational equivalency," which was so well covered already, it merited the sarcastic tinge.

 

[GuardianE]

Were they raped? Were they captured so that we could see how weak and needing of protection they are?

I don't think you can dismiss the argument simply because rape=/=torture.

The fact is, rape for a woman is a very real threat in the world, whereas rape for a man is considerably more rare. That's not sexist, that's just an unfortunate truth.

This is why Snake is instead threatened by things like cutting appendages off, or shooting his eye out while he's tied up and helpless. And Snake WAS tortured. Not attempted tortured. In both scenarios, they're breaking down the worst possible scenario for each character. Attempted rape against Snake just wouldn't be very practical given how rare it is.

I also DO think that Snake was captured so that we could see how weak he was, in addition to illustrating how awful the antagonists were. He was broken down to the point of needing to hear stories from his colleagues to maintain his sanity. There was the looming threat of more intrusive means of torture to be used against him. In fact, Lara at least escapes on her own. Snake actually needs help from others in order to get out of his situation.

I still think that the developers of Tomb Raider have to be much more careful about their phrasing and their execution here. I'm reserving judgment until I see more of the game, but I'm not opposed to the notion of having a protagonist broken down. I just need to see how it's done.

 

[RustyNails]

Well I guess we should just ignore rape then! Everything that is somewhat offensive to someone shouldn't be in any work of fiction. No rape, no racism... no murder! There, I made gaming better for all of us.

No one is saying that. It's the particular way the developer is EXPLOITING rape as a cheap tool for us to white knight Lara. Hooray rape minigame. Press x to kick the guy in nuts, y to eat his ear.

 

[elcapitan]

I wonder if people would still have a problem if they removed that particular scene from the game. Would people still have a problem with Lara getting the shit kicked out of her over the course of the game without that scene? Or even without that comment?

It seems like the only way CD can solve this problem is if they took all the human enemies out of the game and only have Lara deal with natural hazards, which doesn't actually sound too bad to me, but it's clear CD is going in a different direction.

 

[RustyNails]

Can you give me numerous examples of well written characters regardless of gender? I keep hearing this but I can't really think of any characters that are really well written. Video game writing is usually pretty poor imo. I'm curious.

John Marston from Red Dead Redemption
Altair from Assassins Creed 1 (suck it haters)

 

[cameron]

I'm not cherrypicking. She herself said that there's "nothing wrong with taking such an approach" but somehow it's Crystal Dynamic's responsibility to have a wide variety of female characters. Because there aren't that many strong female characters Lara Croft absolutely can't be touched or developed.

Well here you have your variety, Lara was a badass in the previous games and this time she isn't. Because she wasn't born a hero.

Okay. Just a suggestion. If you have trouble understanding someone's post for whatever reason, maybe ask for clarification rather than resorting to a straw man type of argument (which you've done again here with "Because there aren't that many strong female characters Lara Croft absolutely can't be touched or developed.").

 

[GuardianE]

I wonder if people would still have a problem if they removed that particular scene from the game. Would people still have a problem with Lara getting the shit kicked out of her over the course of the game without that scene? Or even without that comment?

It seems like the only way CD can solve this problem is if they took all the human enemies out of the game and only have Lara deal with natural hazards, which doesn't actually sound too bad to me, but it's clear CD is going in a different direction.

I think that this is probably the only real way to appease people. This, and not saying another word about their goals with the game until it's out.

 

[Glass Rebel]

That's because your reply suffered from "gender equality = situational equivalency," which was so well covered already, it merited the sarcastic tinge.

Criminals don't give a shit about gender equivalency. Are you gonna tell me that this wasn't a situation that could have occurred? Is rape somehow taboo because it's a game? Reality isn't always gender neutral so why should her origin story be?

No one is saying that. It's the particular way the developer is EXPLOITING rape as a cheap tool for us to white knight Lara. Hooray rape minigame. Press x to kick the guy in nuts, y to eat his ear.

You haven't played the game hence you don't know this.


Seriously, before overreacting everybody should read this writeup. But of course everybody is gonna focus on the Kotaku article. Because that turned out so well in the past!

Okay. Just a suggestion. If you have trouble understanding someone's post for whatever reason, maybe ask for clarification rather than resorting to a straw man type of argument (which you've done again here with "Because there aren't that many strong female characters Lara Croft absolutely can't be touched or developed.").

Thanks for wasting my time.

 

[PdotMichael]

I have absolutly no problems with it... I protected Yorda, so why not Lara too?

 

[Theonik]

:Rapeculture

 

[Deified Data]

I don't want to play as a character I need to "protect".

Straight from one destructive stereotype of women to another. Progress.

 

[3phemeral]

Can you give me numerous examples of well written characters regardless of gender? I keep hearing this but I can't really think of any characters that are really well written. Video game writing is usually pretty poor imo. I'm curious.

This is not entirely the same thing. You can still have Lara be poorly written without the sexism -- the central issue is the seeming reliance on these exploitative aspects as a character-building element.

It's the fact that this was a deliberate and conscious effort to "flesh her out" that's the issue. They're selling the game as if they've actually thought long and hard about her origin story.

Criminals don't give a shit about gender equivalency. Are you gonna tell me that this wasn't a situation that could have occurred? Is rape somehow taboo because it's a game? Reality isn't always gender neutral so why should her origin story be?

I suppose, then, that the extremities of reality can only be relevant in character development when it comes to women.

Tell me, what do you think is the male equivalent of rape, something that, in reality, men suffer as a result of their status in society that's used as a crutch for storytelling and how often it's used? It's easier to find examples for any minority population, but what would you say the contextually equivalent would be for a majority of video game protagonists, white males?

 

[Glass Rebel]

“It definitely escalates, and I think she does become a little desensitized to it,” said Rosenberg. “We do try to be sensitive with how we deal with that stuff. We talk about it all the time. And we always have to weigh the balance between the story we want to tell and making a great game that people are going to have fun playing. We’re not willing to let go of either of those things. Certainly, our game isn’t going to be a movie.”

Damn, who would have expected this?

There's a balance to strike between consistence and fun gameplay though. A game with something like perma-injuries or a completely impaired character is simply not gonna cut it. Luckily there's still stuff like the survival aspects, hunting for food, being tied up and forced into stealthy situations... having Lara limping like an idiot doesn't sound like a good game to me. There's not much you can do to show that "realism" outside of cutscenes and QTEs.

Oh.

But keep the overreactions coming.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

"Can you give me numerous examples of well written characters regardless of gender?"

Enough. This terrible reboot is how the video game industry is losing the plot. Hourglass Lara in tight shorts exploring and platforming is better than this pretentious crap. To add insult to injury, it's a fucking origin story.

 

[Amir0x]

just what Tomb Raider was missing, a white knight mode

fuck me

 

[Dyno]

Here you see her killing plenty of guys, actually so many that it contradicts the game's realistic approach.

Thanks, I didn't see that one. Well, it's an action game so she's probably going to go through over a hundred guys. Man but they're still beating the shit out of her, even once she gets a shotgun. That near-constant loud, high-pitched moaning isn't settling my stomach any either.

It's a thing, she's going to get hurt a lot and she's vocal about it. That's what this game will do... I dunno man. It doesn't give me a good feeling.

 

[pigeon]

Reality isn't always gender neutral so why should her origin story be?

Because the game isn't realistic? In real life, raiding tombs is tedious and unprofitable (and involves a lot of very small brushes). Why doesn't the game reflect that? Oh, right, because they can do whatever they want to in a game. So they can choose not to put rape in there if half their audience doesn't distinguish and the other half walks away. But they didn't.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Because the game isn't realistic? In real life, raiding tombs is tedious and unprofitable (and involves a lot of very small brushes). Why doesn't the game reflect that? Oh, right, because they can do whatever they want to in a game. So they can choose not to put rape in there if half their audience doesn't distinguish and the other half walks away. But they didn't.

So they should take one of the most important moments in the closed-doors demo out even though it has a clear purpose? Makes sense.

 

[PdotMichael]

Because the game isn't realistic? In real life, raiding tombs is tedious and unprofitable (and involves a lot of very small brushes). Why doesn't the game reflect that? Oh, right, because they can do whatever they want to in a game. So they can choose not to put rape in there if half their audience doesn't distinguish and the other half walks away. But they didn't.

please... only politically correct game/movie/book stories that's bullshit and I hope it will be not the future.

 

[Devolution]

The problem with Tomb Raider wholesale is that in their quest to give Lara a backstory they fall into the single most overused story trope for any character but especially a woman. We need to see them struggle before they become badass. Now this isn't a problem in and of itself but it can become a cliched exercise fast when the writing is terrible and the emotional exploitation is so apparent. Not to mention the producer just came out and said how they want their gamer to feel while playing the game. Don't project yourself onto her, don't become immersed in the game itself, protect her from terrible men and situations.

So once again we have the don't empathize with a female character, pity her. Therein lies the problem. They built a character around tits and short shorts and no depth then declare that gamers don't project themselves onto her? Of course they don't. But it's not because she's a woman, it's because devs have to constantly remind us who is a woman with tropes and attention to features. Now you'll say, well isn't that what being a woman entails? Having tits, a figure, being different? Not really. Start writing us as people first with different motivations, personalities and character flaws. Then maybe you'll see men project themselves onto women, just as we've done for years with men characters due to the dearth of female leadership, good protagonists and back up characters that exist as something other than a girlfriend or mother.

When projecting myself onto male characters, I did so because they got shit done. They had a force of will. They didn't take shit. They were strong, resilient, quick witted. Even the so called roided out characters have their moments of brilliance. They're not just meat machines as people in the threads in gaming lately have surmised. If that were the case we wouldn't be playing as them, we'd be under constant orders from someone smarter. With female characters/protagonists I get constantly jolted out of immersion and projection because they're running around without bullet proof vests, armor, their ass/tits/mid-drift (or any combination of the three) out and that's all they really are. If there was a whole range of female characters written like the male characters, as strong capable characters, even without too much character depth, it'd still be better than the avatars of sex we have now.

When someone mentions sexualized, they don't have a problem with sexiness, they have a problem with that being all a character entails, or seemingly necessary for even something as plain as AI. And yet when it's brought up we're asked "well do you want characters to be prudish and in burqas?" I simply want more realistic representations of who these women are and attire that resembles what someone who is in their line of work would wear. I can't be the only one. At least I hope not.

I don't want the flipside however, I don't want a bunch of Samus's void of personalities running around. I just want capable women who aren't just a splash of tits and ass. It's about frequency. If enough strong, somewhat fleshed out characters with depth, who just happened to be women existed, this conversation would be moot. But they don't. And instead we get to see women who are typically capable, even if they lack depth, be given origin stories where we're forced to "pity them" rather than see a capable girl turn into a capable woman. The hardship trope is not unique to female characters but overdone. There are ways in which this trope can be done well but it's all about the writing and it turns into a cliched mess fast, and that's what we're witnessing.

Men or gamers, can't project themselves onto this female avatar so let's make them pity her. That's not the answer. They've substituted a strong personality less character (which is another problem with how female characters are written but I digress) with an idea that if we see her inflicted with torture and almost raped we'll at least sympathise with her, we'll pity her plight and try to rescue her from the big bad rapist. If one cannot see how insulting this is to my gender and a mark of how much gaming insults men in terms of what they are capable of as well, given the proper writing and immersion, then we have a long road ahead of us.

 

[pigeon]

So they should take one of the most important moments in the closed-doors demo out even though it has a clear purpose? Makes sense.

I mean, if that purpose is to disgust and repel people, then they've accomplished it. Non-gaming people who I showed this article to were literally in disbelief. What is the likelihood they will become gaming people now? Shit like this is bad for the industry and bad for the community.

 

[Incendiary]

Rooting for != wanting to protect

I think this sums up the root of the problem some of us have with the portrayal of the game so far. As players or viewers of whatever medium we choose, whether it be TV shows or movies or games, we want to root for the protagonists. But using "wanting to protect" as the descriptor instead of rooting for makes the game have this icky white knight aspect. Lara should be able to protect herself and that's what we should be seeing in the game and that's what should make us root for her. We shouldn't see what happens in the game and want to coddle her, wrap her in a blanket and whisper sweet nothings in her ear until the bad, bad feelings go away.

The game itself may not fetishize the protection aspect, but the marketing and interviews of the developers sure has which is what is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

Good thing she overcomes and shows that there is more to women than being frail sex objects. If anything, that scene makes men looks worse than women. Not all of us are sexual deviants that objectify women. You here that, guys? Let's protest!

Here is the point, and there is you missing it.

It's not about the sexual assault scene making men look worse than women. It's the fact that it's only happening because she's a woman. In the scene, her friend betrays her and the pirate shoots one of her other friends point blank. For a male character, that would have been enough psychological torture. But because she's a woman, let's add that extra little twist of sexual assault. In other interviews, the developer have said they wanted her "first kill" to be a big moment, and they decided to have that moment be as a result of sexual assault. Thus subtly tying her willingness and desire to kill off the bad guys with protecting her sexual identity. Which reinforces that "protection" aspect associated with female sexuality, that women need to protect themselves from sex because it's only the bad, bad men that want it.

I'm delving into psychological issues within male-oriented society here and I'm kind of drifting from my point. The point I'm trying to make is it feels like, to me, the developers added the sexual assault simply because she's a woman, and I believe that's lazy storytelling and they could have come up with a much better solution to that particular situation. As I said in the other thread, I don't believe rape should never be tackled in a video game, but I do think in this particular instance it was handled poorly.

I don't know what people expect, but I didn't think that any female character came out of the womb killing fools and taking names.

But male characters can come out of the womb killing fools and taking names? I apologize if I misinterpret your post but women can be just as tough as guys growing up.

As ugly as it is, stuff like that happens in the real world and very likely would in such an environment. Stop being so damn politically correct and see the bigger scenario of survival and growth here. There is more to it than Lara overcoming some rapist goon in the middle of nowhere. It's about her being forced to overcome and find who she is in general. Nothing offensive at all about that and I am glad that they are not sugar coating it so nobody gets offended.

That's great and all, but the problem is all the media and pre-game stuff is focusing on this particular aspect, which is why people are up in arms about it. I'm sure there's more to the game that this, but when every interview the developer is talking about us "wanting to protect" her and "wanting to break her down" I start to wonder why that's the marketing strategy.

Compare the marketing strategy of Tomb Raider to The Last of Us. Both are survival oriented games. Hell, in The Last of Us you play as a male character protecting a young female character. Can you not see how different the developer language and focus is between the two games' marketing so far? Naughty Dog isn't repeatedly enforcing the idea that The Last of Us is about protecting Ellie, they show that Ellie can handle herself and it's the two of them surviving in a harsh world. But Crystal Dynamics IS showing with their media Lara going through all sorts of tough shit and continually reinforcing the protection aspect.

I'm sure in the finished game they'll have a half-assed "road to badassness" arc for her, they can't release straight up torture porn. But you're right, the focus is not on this, and the terrible marketing is really bringing the point home. And this stems from this weird othering perspective, straight out the mouth of the exec producer.

This.

Is that really ALL that makes her the strong woman she becomes? REALLY? I think you're focusing on it too much. What about all the other shit that happens in the game? The other 98% of it? The desperate search for shelter, evading psychotic human beings out to kill you, dealing with harsh weather, terrain, wildlife, basic striving to survive, etc etc. Instead you're focusing on the 1 minute sequence of attempted rape.

Because that's what we've been shown. They're choosing to display this part of the game for a reason in their marketing, which strikes a nerve. Right now, we don't know what survival aspects are included in the actual gameplay. What we DO know is what's been shown at E3 and what the developers have talked about and that's why we keep coming back to the "protection" bullshit they're shoving down our throats with all the media.

This issue that I see (and many other people here) is that this game is using cliche, boring, and outdated tropes to get us to care about the female lead. Rape has pretty much never been handled as anything other than a melodramatic wedge in most video game character writing. You could absolutely write an interesting character whose origin story included sexual assault, but simply including a gropey QTE that ends with Lara kneeing the assailant in the nuts is laughable. The producer's comments also frame the whole thing in a really weird, white-knighty light. It personally makes me uncomfortable, and not in an entertaining way.

This. I never expected Tomb Raider to have an amazing story, but the developers have made it clear they want to make a more grounded, less campy story for Lara Croft. As such, I reserve the right to critique the hell out of their storytelling methods. And right now their methods worry me and make me feel icked out, not make me feel impressed and care about Lara.

Well I guess we should just ignore rape then! Everything that is somewhat offensive to someone shouldn't be in any work of fiction. No rape, no racism... no murder! There, I made gaming better for all of us.

Reductio ad absurdum, anyone? I don't think anybody (well some people, but not myself at least) is saying rape should never be tackled ever and we should just ignore the problem. But there are competent ways of dealing with rape and making it a vital part of storytelling. Crystal Dynamics hasn't done that.

I don't know if you saw the other thread about the sexual assault scene, but a lot of the posters in that thread classified it as "no big deal" and "who gives a crap about it." And if you're consciously deciding to include and emphasize an issue as big and unsettling as sexual assault, and people brush it aside as no big deal, then it's a huge failure in storytelling.

 

[immortal-joe]

Holy fucking hell this thread!!!!

My interpretation is that she is vulnerable at the start, and goes through hell as she develops a harder "shell", like any person would be in such situations, regardless of gender.

Overtime, she goes through several traumatic experiences that shake her up, only to finish the game off as a bona-fide badass.

That's how I read it. She wont need "protecting" by the end of the game.

 

[Jake Tower]

nu Lara vs. Juliet

GO!

 

[Glass Rebel]

Reductio ad absurdum, anyone? I don't think anybody (well some people, but not myself at least) is saying rape should never be tackled ever and we should just ignore the problem. But there are competent ways of dealing with rape and making it a vital part of storytelling. Crystal Dynamics hasn't done that.

I don't know if you saw the other thread about the sexual assault scene, but a lot of the posters in that thread classified it as "no big deal" and "who gives a crap about it." And if you're consciously deciding to include and emphasize an issue as big and unsettling as sexual assault, and people brush it aside as no big deal, then it's a huge failure in storytelling.

I'm just gonna reply to this with an excerpt of that RPS article I linked earlier:

After taking a cringe-inducing beating herself, Lara fled. She hid in the claustrophobic remains of an old wooden shack, but the scavenger leader had little trouble rediscovering her trail. Gun in hand, he pinned her against a wall and began to caress her with a sweaty, salivating lust. Panicking, Lara (via quick QTEs) bit him as he leaned close and then kneed him below the belt. Seconds later, they were kicking and scrambling, surrounded by the sweltering orange of a burning forest.

Seconds after that, a gunshot rang. The scavenger fell backward, left side of his face masked in a thick, sticky syrup of fresh blood. But his eyes are what really caught my attention. They were so wide it felt like they were sucking me in – so overwhelmed by terror and shock and pain and rage and sadness. I felt incredibly uncomfortable staring into them, but it was all I could do. He was a monster, a nameless villain, and probably a rapist, but part of me wanted to hug him because, well, he was seconds away from awful, awful death. After what felt like hours, he finally choked out his last breath. Lara immediately fell to her hands and knees retching. She’d have probably vomited too, but well, she hadn’t exactly been eating much lately.

She took a human life. Once again, it was necessary, but that moment – I have to imagine – outweighed a thousand sudden falls or grisly steps into rusty bear traps. And according to Rosenberg, that’s the tipping point.

“In that particular scene, she literally becomes a cornered animal,” he explained. “We didn’t want to make it a gratuitous scene, but we wanted to show that character progression and talk about what you’d do if you were put in that extreme situation.”

“Certainly, I’ve killed hundreds of guys in videogames,” he admitted. “I don’t think twice about it. But in that particular moment, I feel it. And I’ve demoed it a bunch of times now. I’ve heard people gasp. I’ve seen people walk out of the theater with tears in their eyes. That’s the thing that I’m super excited about. We’re doing something that’s special. I mean, it’s a little bit risky in some ways. We’re forging into new emotional territories.”

I mean, if that purpose is to disgust and repel people, then they've accomplished it. Non-gaming people who I showed this article to were literally in disbelief. What is the likelihood they will become gaming people now? Shit like this is bad for the industry and bad for the community.

Why would you show someone a Kotaku article that doesn't show the scene in context?

 

[Deified Data]

The problem with Tomb Raider wholesale is that in their quest to give Lara a backstory they fall into the single most overused story trope for any character but especially a woman. We need to see them struggle before they become badass. Now this isn't a problem in and of itself but it can become a cliched exercise fast when the writing is terrible and the emotional exploitation is so apparent. Not to mention the producer just came out and said how they want their gamer to feel while playing the game. Don't project yourself onto her, don't become immersed in the game itself, protect her from terrible men and situations.

So once again we have the don't empathize with a female character, pity her. Therein lies the problem. They built a character around tits and short shorts and no depth then declare that gamers don't project themselves onto her? Of course they don't. But it's not because she's a woman, it's because devs have to constantly remind us who is a woman with tropes and attention to features. Now you'll say, well isn't that what being a woman entails? Having tits, a figure, being different? Not really. Start writing us as people first with different motivations, personalities and character flaws. Then maybe you'll see men project themselves onto women, just as we've done for years with men characters due to the dearth of female leadership, good protagonists and back up characters that exist as something other than a girlfriend or mother.

When projecting myself onto male characters, I did so because they got shit done. They had a force of will. They didn't take shit. They were strong, resilient, quick witted. Even the so called roided out characters have their moments of brilliance. They're not just meat machines as people in the threads in gaming lately have surmised. If that were the case we wouldn't be playing as them, we'd be under constant orders from someone smarter. With female characters/protagonists I get constantly jolted out of immersion and projection because they're running around without bullet proof vests, armor, their ass/tits/mid-drift (or any combination of the three) out and that's all they really are. If there was a whole range of female characters written like the male characters, as strong capable characters, even without too much character depth, it'd still be better than the avatars of sex we have now.

When someone mentions sexualized, they don't have a problem with sexiness, they have a problem with that being all a character entails, or seemingly necessary for even something as plain as AI. And yet when it's brought up we're asked "well do you want characters to be prudish and in burqas?" I simply want more realistic representations of who these women are and attire that resembles what someone who is in their line of work would wear. I can't be the only one. At least I hope not.

I don't want the flipside however, I don't want a bunch of Samus's void of personalities running around. I just want capable women who aren't just a splash of tits and ass. It's about frequency. If enough strong, somewhat fleshed out characters with depth, who just happened to be women existed, this conversation would be moot. But they don't. And instead we get to see women who are typically capable, even if they lack depth, be given origin stories where we're forced to "pity them" rather than see a capable girl turn into a capable woman. The hardship trope is not unique to female characters but overdone. There are ways in which this trope can be done well but it's all about the writing and it turns into a cliched mess fast, and that's what we're witnessing.

Men or gamers, can't project themselves onto this female avatar so let's make them pity her. That's not the answer. They've substituted a strong personality less character (which is another problem with how female characters are written but I digress) with an idea that if we see her inflicted with torture and almost raped we'll at least sympathise with her, we'll pity her plight and try to rescue her from the big bad rapist. If one cannot see how insulting this is to my gender and a mark of how much gaming insults men in terms of what they are capable of as well, given the proper writing and immersion, then we have a long road ahead of us.

Oh, you're back.

Good points all. Amazingly, there are women in this world who exist between the poles of mewling damsel in distress and "grr, just one of the bros". I've found them to be exceedingly commonplace, and I'm not sure why some people have such trouble spotting them.

 

[TurnipFritters]

Oh, you're back.

Good points all. Amazingly, there are women in this world who exist between the poles of mewling damsel in distress and "grr, just one of the bros". I've found them to be exceedingly commonplace, and I'm not sure why some people have such trouble spotting them.

Perhaps those women just haven't been victimized enough yet to transform into badass bros. Just a few sexual assaults and plenty of broken bones and they'll be able to do hella cool stuff like shoot fifty guys and go treasure hunting.
And maybe even, dare I say, find a man to love?

 

[Incendiary]

I'm just gonna reply to this with an excerpt of that RPS article I linked earlier:

That article is well-written. And I can understand the emotional impact of the first kill. But I think they could have gotten the same impact without resorting to including sexual assault. A QTE to protect yourself from rape makes my insides queasy, honestly. And not in a "this is good storytelling because it's making me rethink my life" kinda way. More of the fact they're trivializing a very serious issue to button presses and that could be real traumatic for a real survivor of a similar encounter.

After seeing other footage that particular scene does come across as gratuitous. In one particular gameplay sequence they show Lara killing at least 10 guys without much hesitation. Which kind of cheapens what they're going for in that particular scene. If humans are few and far between in the game and each kill really matters, or you can choose to not kill people if you want, that would make the cut-scene have more impact. But from what's been shown it seems you'll be running into pirates frequently and the killing is your only option. And if Lara's human kill total is somewhere in the hundreds by the end of the game, that one scene is going to lose a whole lot of its impact.

 

[Jake Tower]

Compare the marketing strategy of Tomb Raider to The Last of Us. Both are survival oriented games. Hell, in The Last of Us you play as a male character protecting a young female character. Can you not see how different the developer language and focus is between the two games' marketing so far? Naughty Dog isn't repeatedly enforcing the idea that The Last of Us is about protecting Ellie, they show that Ellie can handle herself and it's the two of them surviving in a harsh world. But Crystal Dynamics IS showing with their media Lara going through all sorts of tough shit and continually reinforcing the protection aspect.

This nails the issue. Well said.

 

[Deified Data]

Perhaps those women just haven't been victimized enough yet to transform into badass bros. Just a few sexual assaults and plenty of broken bones and they'll be able to do hella cool stuff like shoot fifty guys and go treasure hunting.
And maybe even, dare I say, find a man to love?

Nah, the man will come to her.